1/48 collecting......what makes one worth more?

[calvin]

Hey, I was just looking thru a catalog about star wars and such and they have all these things like if the card has this(off color) then it's worth this much? although I don't collect star wars it got me thinking has a standard been created for our macross 1/48 prizes? Like are there any misprinted boxes or paint color versions that are off? or how bout mislabeled contents? anyway thought would make an interesting topic?

[Impreszive]

I honestly don't think they will have the collectability of the old 80's toys. It comes down to rarity. Right now, there are alot of Yamato Toys out there. (This includes the Low Vis and TRU Exclusive) You can still find them in some circles or conventions.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The days of the rampant varient toy collecting are gone. Much like the dinosaurs and '80s Yuppies the collectable toy varient caused it's own demise in the market thanks to scalpers peddling "manufactured collectables" and other painful lessons learned. Only in America would a tubby coffee stained Dr. Who t-shirt wearing 40 year old virgin pay $80 for the same toy he just paid $4 for just because there was a "factory painting error" on it or because the parking meter said 5 cents rather than 10 cents.

Also, the whole "half circle, right hand" and "short saber, long tray" phenomenon was almost totally contained to Star Wars and a handful other american toy properties... I would even go as far as to say it was an "american thing". When Japanese toy companies make a varient, they go whole hog and noticably change aspects of the toy. I have never really seen Japanese collectors interested in subtle manufacturing changes in toys to the degree of their american counterparts. If that was the case then the first release of the Focker 1/48 with the crooked skull would be gold. Then we would be seeing people listing Yamatos for sale like "Focker 1/48 Crooked Skull, No Velcro".

Manufacturing varient collecting is a symptom of a product starved collector's base... I think there are enough Macross toys stuck in our craw right now for this sort of thing to not manefest itself for a few more years... if it even ever does.

[Blaine23]

The days of the rampant varient toy collecting are gone. Much like the dinosaurs and '80s Yuppies the collectable toy varient caused it's own demise in the market thanks to scalpers peddling "manufactured collectables" and other painful lessons learned. Only in America would a tubby coffee stained Dr. Who t-shirt wearing 40 year old virgin pay $80 for the same toy he just paid $4 for just because there was a "factory painting error" on it or because the parking meter said 5 cents rather than 10 cents.

Also, the whole "half circle, right hand" and "short saber, long tray" phenomenon was almost totally contained to Star Wars and a handful other american toy properties... I would even go as far as to say it was an "american thing". When Japanese toy companies make a varient, they go whole hog and noticably change aspects of the toy. I have never really seen Japanese collectors interested in subtle manufacturing changes in toys to the degree of their american counterparts. If that was the case then the first release of the Focker 1/48 with the crooked skull would be gold. Then we would be seeing people listing Yamatos for sale like "Focker 1/48 Crooked Skull, No Velcro".

Manufacturing varient collecting is a symptom of a product starved collector's base... I think there are enough Macross toys stuck in our craw right now for this sort of thing to not manefest itself for a few more years... if it even ever does.

I always thought that was pretty much crap, anyway.

It seems to me that Macross collectability is directly related to availability. The harder something is to get (Low Vis), the more it is worth. The easier something is to get (any 1/60 valk) the less it is worth.

Which is really how it should be. I think the only reason the Version 1, Version 1.5, Version 2 YF-19's were priced differently is strictly based upon some folk's need to have the earliest possible version, thus the hardest one to get, making it worth more to them.

I like it much better this way... maybe it has something to do with too much Macross products, as JSA said... but I doubt it. I never saw that sort of variant mentality on old Taka's and Bandai's - but you'll see it on old Star Wars figs quite often (big head Han Solo, etc). It's also difficult to call Star Wars figure collectors from a few years back "product-starved".

I think it has more to do with a wider fan base and a dumber fan base, to be quite honest. Dopey Newbie collectors getting all excited because their Greedo fig has an arm attached backwards or something... they want to think it's an "instant collectible", unlike buying an older figure that already costs more than they would spend on their new hobby.

I think most collectors going to the trouble to research and buy import toys from Japan is a bit past all that crap. Hopefully.

[do not disturb]

what makes one worth more?

nothing, it really depends how many people are looking for the same thing at the same time. nobodies looking, the prices stay reasonable or even drops. everyone looking, the price shoot up. it also doesn't help that we have ebay. it makes it too easy for a seller to gauge prices when they have no idea what the value of an item is. basically the item is only worth what the next person is willing to pay for it.

some people collect varients and i guess you can consider the 1S and 1A first releases that, and someday, someone out there will think its worth more. when? and who? i have no idea but collecting the yamato "varients"(for a lack of better words) is nowhere near the SW figures...luke with a blue arm band, luke with a blue arm band but it has the rebel logo, luke knealing with no shoes, luke rocking a pair of nikes, etc.

its ridiculous but some people are like that and they're more than welcome to spend all their money on obtaining such things. me i jst get what i like or what i think is cool and leave it at that. i'm a completist to a degree but not to the degree of starvation over toys.

[JsARCLIGHT]

It's also difficult to call Star Wars figure collectors from a few years back "product-starved".

But they where... moreso they were "rare collectable" starved. When those new kenner Bulk Wars toys came out on the market they were the first toys released in decades to a fanbase used to paying hundreds of dollars for beat up original toys, which instantly made the new toys hotter than hades and "instant collectables". But when they started to saturate the market with them the scalpers and toy nazis needed to keep people's interest in paying them ten times more for an off the shelf toy so they manufactured demand by pointing out all the changes to the toys that people would never have noticed and started charging more for them. The buyers, sick of not being able to afford that $400 A-Wing from the original line were stoked to get a $40 left hand suzuki method Greedo (as Haterist put it) and thus they bought more and more often looking for the next great varient. Heck, at one point price guides were even printing "fake" varients and "same thing" varients in the price guides until someone told them they had it wrong. Collector's were swimming in product but they were "collectable starved". None of the new toys were really rare or hard to find until someone started counting the stripes on leia's belt or noticed kenner changed a toy for safety reasons. A few short years later the Star Wars toy empire collapsed in on itself under the sheer weight and suck of the new movie's marketing blitz. It became too hard for the average fan to keep up with all the toys released in droves of reissues and varients and the casual toy buyer (the kid or the parent who buys for the kid who the toys were designed originally for) moved on to the next big fad.

The same thing is happening to Macross toys right now. When no new toys were out we were all pissy and moaning over how to afford that $1,200 strike valkyrie. Then the boon of new toys came and we were overjoyed and all too eager to just buy anything that came out... price guides even started listing the toys at inflated prices to relfect the demand (I still have an issue or two of Toyfare that lists the Yamato 1/60 first four as having a "Street value" of $120 each). Then as more and more came out and the market volume increased our demand started to slip. QC issues started being the hot topic and not "what's next?". Now we live in a world were a new 1/48 toy comes out like the Max and Milia and people say things like "nope" and "pass" and "not intersted" and prefer to bag on it rather than buy it. Without some scalpers telling us about the rare super expensive "Max 1/48 No Stripe on his right calf, Crooked skull, nose ring" varient the fervor is slowing. Collectable toys require both a buyer and a seller, and most of the time the fever starts with the seller and not the buyer. We are just lucky no one in the macross scalping arena has started the varient disease yet (although they did get the low vis pox going quite well).

[Nightbat]

We are just lucky no one in the macross scalping arena has started the varient disease yet (although they did get the low vis pox going quite well).

Ah, but at least that is one is a collector's quest solely for availability

there simply aren't any more manufactured

not because there are LV releases with a "more pleasant shade of grey"

or an extra line on the chest

someone going into so much detail to find a difference and making it a big thing

this is someone we call an "Ant-f***er" in the Netherlands

[rtype]

It seems to me that Macross collectability is directly related to availability. The harder something is to get (Low Vis), the more it is worth. The easier something is to get (any 1/60 valk) the less it is worth.

This is the only way it ever is. It's basically original toy cost +/- supply/demand impact.

We can question whether or not the manufacturer *intended* to shortsupply the demand in order to create a chase variant or not, but regardless of the manufacturer's intent, the value of a collectible is always porportional to how difficult it is to get and how many people want it.

My suspicion is that the "low viz" was not shortsupplied intentionally but rather that Yamato underestimated its desirability because it had no way to guage the custom mod market (ie, people buying them to paint). Ironically, this will in the long run have the effect of making the "low viz" even more valuable because it is more likely than any other valk to not be found in original condition.

[Blaine23]

My suspicion is that the "low viz" was not shortsupplied intentionally but rather that Yamato underestimated its desirability because it had no way to guage the custom mod market (ie, people buying them to paint). Ironically, this will in the long run have the effect of making the "low viz" even more valuable because it is more likely than any other valk to not be found in original condition.

You are correct that Yamato underestimated the Low-Vis's desirability, but it has nothing to do with customization. I'd wager that custom Low-Vis percentages are much, much lower than other, more "common" valks. Most customizers don't want to start on a valk that already costs $300 bucks to use as a template. I'll also guarantee you that almost all of the Low Viz will be found in their original condition (except the one JSA just ditched).

The reason Yamato made it a Limited Edition is because it was not a "show canon" release and didn't have years of marketing behind it (basically everything they've released has been released before by Takatoku, Bandai, etc... Yamato simply didn't know if it would sink like a stone or sell out very quickly - which is what happened.

As for the Star Wars rationale, I agree that it was Star Wars mania and crooked sellers that whipped up most of the frenzy - but I also stand behind my assertation that a "naive" factor amongst buyers made it possible. Alot of the guys collecting SW figs then weren't really that into toys, but got into it because they were 20+ year old fans of the original movies with money to burn.

I think if some buttmunch put up his "super-rare defective hip VF-11B by Yamato" he'd get laughed at rather than start a variant stampede.

[JsARCLIGHT]

As for the Star Wars rationale, I agree that it was Star Wars mania and crooked sellers that whipped up most of the frenzy - but I also stand behind my assertation that a "naive" factor amongst buyers made it possible. Alot of the guys collecting SW figs then weren't really that into toys, but got into it because they were 20+ year old fans of the original movies with money to burn.

... and all those naive kids and teens who bought all that stuff and got burned have become the jaded toy collectors of today. How many of us here got burned by the Star Wars crash? How about the comic book crash or the baseball card crash? I myself got hit by them all and it taught me to buy what I want and screw the "collecability" or [burke] Substantial Dollar Value [/burke] that might at one point be attributed to something. If it wasn't for the crooked sellers, dumb collectors and crashes then we would not be where we are today. Something like the Star Wars toy craze of the mid nineties can never happen again but there are still some dumb people out there keeping everything they own mint in box for the supposed day it will magically become gold. If everyone collects what they think will be worth something when the future does turn on us all that stuff will be worth just what you paid for it. True collectables are the things that originally no one wanted or did not survive because no one kept them. It's also the generation sweeping fads that turn into the collectable of tomorrow... I predict in 20 years Pokemon and Power Rangers will be the hottest things and today's 7 year old (now 27) will be paying $200 for a loose, beat up talking Meowth missing an eye to recapture his youth.

[EXO]

I don't think Yamato underestimated the desirability of the Low-Viz, but the Low-Viz became desirable when people learned of their limited status. Sure there are a few that really wanted one, but as far as collectability, it wasn't a concern until they became apparently scarce. If there were as many LVs out there as the canon releases I don't think they would have hit the ridiculous heights that they did a couple of weeks ago and may again. It may have very well been the least wanted of all schemes.

[do not disturb]

its just sad you know the pokemon characters names.

i spent a buttload on SW lego myself, i guess i'll have to wait and see what happens to prices when the next movie drops.

[Jolly Rogers]

Also, the whole "half circle, right hand" and "short saber, long tray" phenomenon was almost totally contained to Star Wars and a handful other american toy properties... I would even go as far as to say it was an "american thing". When Japanese toy companies make a varient, they go whole hog and noticably change aspects of the toy. I have never really seen Japanese collectors interested in subtle manufacturing changes in toys to the degree of their american counterparts. If that was the case then the first release of the Focker 1/48 with the crooked skull would be gold. Then we would be seeing people listing Yamatos for sale like "Focker 1/48 Crooked Skull, No Velcro".

Manufacturing varient collecting is a symptom of a product starved collector's base... I think there are enough Macross toys stuck in our craw right now for this sort of thing to not manefest itself for a few more years... if it even ever does.

Actually, I think the reason this "American thing" happened was because of the long lead time between US prototyping and production and shipping from China. The Chinese factories do not always build to specs, and by the time the manufactured toys arrive on our shores the company faces the choice of selling what they paid for or trash the entire shipment and eat their losses. Guess what everyone did in the end.

Most of the early McFarlane "variants" were a result of fixes to the scenario described above. They first version always had some kind of defect or mistakes that got fixed in the later reissues. They only started this whole manufactured variant practice later on when they realized there was a market for it. You don't see this practice with Japanese manufactuers because they are much closer to China geographically and usually problems are caught before the product was made and shipped.

BTW I don't think the TRU cannon fodder is really that rare. You'd be lucky if you can get back what you paid for it, as is the case with most 1/60 Yamatos.

[Blaine23]

I don't think Yamato underestimated the desirability of the Low-Viz, but the Low-Viz became desirable when people learned of their limited status. Sure there are a few that really wanted one, but as far as collectability, it wasn't a concern until they became apparently scarce. If there were as many LVs out there as the canon releases I don't think they would have hit the ridiculous heights that they did a couple of weeks ago and may again. It may have very well been the least wanted of all schemes.

True that... one of my worst Macross collecting memories is a few years back when Bandai decided to pull out of the Macross business and short-shipped the Max and Millia valks. I had a 4 month preorder that got cancelled on me.

Luckily a fellow MW board member hooked me up, but it was so weird seeing people who hadn't liked the 1/55 reissues at all going crazy to get their hands on them.

[Hurin]

But they where... moreso they were "rare collectable" starved. When those new kenner Bulk Wars toys came out on the market they were the first toys released in decades to a fanbase used to paying hundreds of dollars for beat up original toys, which instantly made the new toys hotter than hades and "instant collectables". But when they started to saturate the market with them the scalpers and toy nazis needed to keep people's interest in paying them ten times more for an off the shelf toy so they manufactured demand by pointing out all the changes to the toys that people would never have noticed and started charging more for them. The buyers, sick of not being able to afford that $400 A-Wing from the original line were stoked to get a $40 left hand suzuki method Greedo (as Haterist put it) and thus they bought more and more often looking for the next great varient. Heck, at one point price guides were even printing "fake" varients and "same thing" varients in the price guides until someone told them they had it wrong. Collector's were swimming in product but they were "collectable starved". None of the new toys were really rare or hard to find until someone started counting the stripes on leia's belt or noticed kenner changed a toy for safety reasons. A few short years later the Star Wars toy empire collapsed in on itself under the sheer weight and suck of the new movie's marketing blitz. It became too hard for the average fan to keep up with all the toys released in droves of reissues and varients and the casual toy buyer (the kid or the parent who buys for the kid who the toys were designed originally for) moved on to the next big fad.

That is quite possibly the best summation of the Star Wars toy phenomenon that I have ever heard. Especially the part about how so many people gave up on it right around Phantom Menace. It's like you were writing my biography.

H

[JsARCLIGHT]

its just sad you know the pokemon characters names.

I actually have the pokemon merchandising guide on my desk (next to my scooby doo, power ranger and yu-gi-oh ones) and I occasionally flip through it. Did you know pokemon has it's own typeface?

[do not disturb]

its just sad you know the pokemon characters names. 

I actually have the pokemon merchandising guide on my desk (next to my scooby doo, power ranger and yu-gi-oh ones) and I occasionally flip through it. Did you know pokemon has it's own typeface?

and i thought i had problems. hehehe

the only people to blame for all this collecting madness is EBAY.

if it wasn't for ebay, no one would really know about all the varients of XYZ product nor would anyone even care. theres always fan sites but no one there was bragging about how they got the boba fett with the silver rocket pack...they'd just assume they had the same one everyone else has. its sellers on ebay that created this craze with long descriptions and pointing out small flaws in the products.

i hate ebay!

[Hurin]

I think this EBay stuff has been debated before.

[EXO]

its just sad you know the pokemon characters names. 

I actually have the pokemon merchandising guide on my desk (next to my scooby doo, power ranger and yu-gi-oh ones) and I occasionally flip through it. Did you know pokemon has it's own typeface?

and i thought i had problems. hehehe

the only people to blame for all this collecting madness is EBAY.

if it wasn't for ebay, no one would really know about all the varients of XYZ product nor would anyone even care. theres always fan sites but no one there was bragging about how they got the boba fett with the silver rocket pack...they'd just assume they had the same one everyone else has. its sellers on ebay that created this craze with long descriptions and pointing out small flaws in the products.

i hate ebay!

I think eBay is the outlet for MW type speculations. The internet is largely to blame. But it's also a deterrent against this type of thing. I remember I went to a job location in 1995 and there was a small toy store nearby. My ex-gf was with me and we decided to check it out. I was hoping to run into some Takatokus or Bandais. Instead we ran into the Woody and Buzz Lightyear. This was before they were in the Toys R' Us and other stores. I was gawking at them and the guy tried really hard to sell the to me for $75 each. I decided against it and went home to my, then dial up connection. After looking around the net for a while I saw them for $50 somewhere else. But alas, my ex went back to th store and got the toys for me anyway. I felt bad when they flooded the market with those toys when the sequel came out.

The internet is just a tool... it all goes back to collectors, hoarders and speculators. Here, other boards, as much as Ebay.

[JsARCLIGHT]

its just sad you know the pokemon characters names. 

I actually have the pokemon merchandising guide on my desk (next to my scooby doo, power ranger and yu-gi-oh ones) and I occasionally flip through it. Did you know pokemon has it's own typeface?

and i thought i had problems. hehehe

Oh boy, trust me if I did not have to have these things on my desk they would not be here. I'm in Marketing and Ad design you see and in order to make copy and packages for certain products you have to conform to the brand's "brand". In the case of pokemon, scooby doo and others the owner of the license (in this case nintendo and cartoon network/hanna barberra) dictate that you can only use certain colors, fonts, images, typefaces and layout elements. Ever wonder why everything "pokemon" or "star wars" made by different companies all have the same design elements in their packages or copy? Because every one of the makers has a thing called a merchandising guide that tells them what they can and cannot use for that brand.

(just posting this so people don't think I'm a poke-dork)

[Drad]

You mean you aren't?

Liar. <mutters something about Evil Jesus Pokemon-hoarders>

Edited April 30, 2004 by Drad

[do not disturb]

sure....right......you're not a poke-dork, a scooby doo-doo head, and theres no way you get your power rangers uniform dry cleaned around the corner from your office. whats that place called? trekkie cleaners.

sorry dude but the "poke-dork" brought it out of me.