Guns and shell casings

[thedarkmarine]

This question has bugged me a little. So we see Isamu's 19 spewing casings from his gun in Macross Plus. Now, I'm thinking it's awfully dangerous for airplanes to spew things of that nature into the air at that rate. So, I was wondering, what happens with real airplanes? They have a box inside that goes clank clank clank as it collects, or do they have some nifty technology without caseings for their guns?

[Phyrox]

I belive modern warplanes collect their own spent casings, but older aircraft (WWII and post-war) just let them fall. Not too much of a danger it seems.

As a side note, one of my fellow grad-students and I have been musing about doing a paper on the effects of spent casings and rounds in WWII, but have found no reliable sources for this. With the huge aerial battles over populated areas in Europe there surely were damage and deaths caused by these "by-products," but very little of it seems to have been documented. Too bad for us.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Some fighters and planes dump their casings out the bottom away from their intakes, others like the big suckers the casings just fall loose into the weapons bay or into a hamper. You also have to remember that all modern planes are made to take bird strikes as well as hits from enemy weapons so clipping a 20 or 30mm spent cannon casing in flight would be like hitting a soda can to the plane. The real threat is to the folks on the ground who might get a nice shower of shell casings from a passing plane overhead. Caseless ammo is sort of still "in the works" for modern weaponry and not quite ready for prime time yet.

[kanata67]

Not to much damage from spent shell casings to civilians as most people are smart enough to hide when planes are fighting over head. You never know when something big might fall on you.

As for damage to the plane itself... pre-turbine planes had guns placed so shells went towards non-vital areas. As the plane was moving much slower than say a sr-71 shells would simply bounce off. Look at all the wwII flying fortresses with the bay mounted machine gun that simply shot the casings all over. Many a soldier gut casing burns on their hands and occasionally their faces or any other exposed flesh. Really sucked if it went down your shirt. Just think of the wwI planes with the machin gun times to shoot throough the propeller

As for modern... They either collect them or discard them from anywhere past the intakes. Yeah a modern aircraft can survive most bird strikes without damage, but a plane is always grounded and inspected afterword. Same with any intake and turbine damage... so they probably wouldn't encourge any system that increased the chances of anything going in an intake. That and with a proper belt system you can simply swap old belt for new just like camera film.

[Skull Leader]

I don't know about others, but the F-14 has a recovery drum for spent shell-casings. Since the gun is situated pretty much directly in front of the air-intakes, it's the best method available.

[Macross_Fanboy]

I assume that the YF-21/VF-22's gunpod(s) have a bulpup design(caseless ammo), and a huge bulpup gattling gun is still in the works I guess. But modern jets keep the shells because then there will be much more weight in the rear of the plane without them than if the shells were kept. That's what I gather.

[Graham]

I think pretty much every current US jet fitted with the M61A1 20mm Vulcan cannon (F-16, F-15, F-18, F-22 etc), recycles the spent cases back into the ammo drum. The A-10 with the 30mm GAU-8 Avenger cannon also does the same as I think does the Marines AV-8B Harrier with its 25mm rotary cannon.

However, I'm not sure about whether modern Eastern or Western European Jets such as the Flanker, Mig-29, Rafale, Gripen, Tornado, Typhoon etc recycle their cases or eject them overboard.

I'm also not sure about the older Korean war era jets such as the F-86.

Graham

[wolfx]

Just think of the wwI planes with the machin gun times to shoot throough the propeller

Ya know....i always wondered about that.... what if it hits the propellars?

[Zentrandude]

it would suck but it would be hard to hit the prop since the gun is connected to the engine

[buddhafabio]

the syncro gear was a BIG invention in world war 1. basically the gear timed the machine gun to shoot though the little window of the propeller travel. it was introduced by the British in 1916 http://www.greatwarflyingmuseum.com/aircra...h_strutter.html

i remberer asking my dad as a kid how did they shoot through the propellor. and he told me this, i did not fully grasp it till Harry Turtledove started writing his alternate history books.

[Mechamaniac]

Others like the big suckers the casings just fall loose into the weapons bay or into a hamper.

Yup, like the old AC-130 Spectre AKA Puff the Magic Dragon.

Back in the Viet Nam era, the spent shell casings would collect onto the floor of the aircraft, and since it was a C-130, when they were done with the mission, the crew would open the ramp, and push broom the spent shells right off the ramp in flight.

Now, one or two shells is bad enough, but can you imagine a virtual shower of shells ranging from 7.62MM, 20 & 25MM, 40MM Grenades, and 105MM Howitzer shells falling on you??

[Impreszive]

man. That would suck to be Charlie.

[Mule]

I think A-10s just eject the spent casings. Infact I remember seing an interview with a soldier or a Marine about being showered with A-10 casings during a fight.

[Akilae]

the syncro gear was a BIG invention in world war 1. basically the gear timed the machine gun to shoot though the little window of the propeller travel. it was introduced by the British in 1916 http://www.greatwarflyingmuseum.com/aircra...h_strutter.html

i remberer asking my dad as a kid how did they shoot through the propellor. and he told me this, i did not fully grasp it till Harry Turtledove started writing his alternate history books.

Before this... they attached metal plates to the props.. and let the bullets bouce off the plating....

[F-ZeroOne]

Spent shell fragements from AA fire was a fairly serious problem during WW. II, though generally speaking people tried not to be outside much if there was an air raid taking place! AA fire also tended to be towards the larger calibres, whereas many WW. II fighters used rifle or .50 calibre rounds ( or 20 - 30 mm cannon - and yes, I know about those monsters with 57mm guns and the like! )

I believe there have been modern reports of injuries caused by people firing AK-47s and the like into the air to celebrate one thing or another.

Shell casings in space could actually be a big problem, if you take into account the damage that can be done by some very small objects to modern spacecraft if travelling fast enough! Though with energy-reinforced armour this might not be so much of a problem for the average Valkyrie pilot...

"So, how'd do you get shot down, buddy?"

"Bloody Valkyrie technician left a screw loose on my flight leaders Valk!"

Edited April 28, 2004 by F-ZeroOne

[Godzilla]

Others like the big suckers the casings just fall loose into the weapons bay or into a hamper.

Yup, like the old AC-130 Spectre AKA Puff the Magic Dragon.

Back in the Viet Nam era, the spent shell casings would collect onto the floor of the aircraft, and since it was a C-130, when they were done with the mission, the crew would open the ramp, and push broom the spent shells right off the ramp in flight.

Now, one or two shells is bad enough, but can you imagine a virtual shower of shells ranging from 7.62MM, 20 & 25MM, 40MM Grenades, and 105MM Howitzer shells falling on you??

Yeap. I saw some of those film reels on Puff the Magic Dragon and those special CH-47 chinook gunship in Vietnam. Those gatling guns spit shells out like nobody's business. The guys had shovels to remove the casing on the floor. I saw mounds of shells. Whoever is on the receiving end had it bad.

Didnt they begin to hook up bags to collect the spent casings in B-29s? I thought I saw that. I think they did that to B-17s later in the war.

[Godzilla]

Just think of the wwI planes with the machin gun times to shoot throough the propeller

Ya know....i always wondered about that.... what if it hits the propellars?

In WWI they synchronized the machine guns to shoot thru the propellers. Yeah it would have sucked if they got out of sync.

[Impreszive]

I sense a lockdown...

[ewilen]

the syncro gear was a BIG invention in world war 1.  basically the gear timed the machine gun to shoot though the little window of the propeller travel.  it was introduced by the British in 1916 http://www.greatwarflyingmuseum.com/aircra...h_strutter.html

i remberer asking my dad  as a kid how did they shoot through the propellor.  and he told me this,  i did not fully grasp it till Harry Turtledove started writing his alternate history books.

This is mistaken. The interrupter gear was invented by Anthony Fokker and was first installed on German aircraft. The design was partially inspired by a more primitive solution used by a French ace, Roland Garros, who had incorporated armored plates on the propellor of his airplane to deflect bullets.

Once the Germans had the interrupter gear, it was the beginning of the Fokker Scourge, a period in which German fighters shot down Allied aircraft with near impunity. Eventually, the Allies responded by developing pusher fighters (where the propellor was behind the cockpit) and interrupter gear of their own. However, initial Allied interrupter gear designs were ineffective, and really good Allied fighters with such gear would have to wait until the Sopwith Pup, Spad VII, and Nieuport 17. Fortunately for the Allies, the pusher fighters were a highly effective stopgap.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWsynchronizing.htm

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/...hronizer%20gear

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites...dogfight01.html

http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/fokkerscourge.htm

On another point raised in this thread, bullets fired in the air have indeed killed people on many occasions. I can recall an incident in the greater Bay Area when a bullet fired in the air during a celebration came down and killed a young girl.

Edited April 29, 2004 by ewilen

[bsu legato]

Such an odd subject....

A friend's mother was growing up in England during the Blitz. The next time I see her, I'll try to remember to ask about shell casings. I'd imagine a 20mm case falling from 10,000 feet would definitely ruin your day.

[David Hingtgen]

Many people are confusing the bullets with their casings. Casings are never fired through the propeller. Also, firing bullets through the propeller is mainly a German/Japanese thing. US pilots simply do not like the idea, no matter how fancy of a synchronizer you have. You won't find many US planes that fire through the propeller.

At least as far back as the 50's, most US fighters have collected their casings for off-loading later. I'll have to check for modern European planes. ::checks books::

Well, that's not an often-mentioned aircraft system, but Tornados collect them, Sea Harriers eject them, most Mirage's have gunpods/packs so it's hard to tell. Also found that F-5's eject them. Wil check on the Eurocanards later.

Edited April 28, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[F-ZeroOne]

Many people are confusing the bullets with their casings. Casings are never fired through the propeller. Also, firing bullets through the propeller is mainly a German/Japanese thing. US pilots simply do not like the idea, no matter how fancy of a synchronizer you have. You won't find many US planes that fire through the propeller.

Thanks, David - I've just noticed I fell victim to forgetting that cases aren't bullets myself!

A lot of pre-war US planes fired through the propeller, but most of the later generation either had guns in the wings, or put the propellers in the wings and the guns in the nose (P-38)!

[Knight26]

I think A-10s just eject the spent casings.  Infact I remember seing an interview with a soldier or a Marine about being showered with A-10 casings during a fight.

No, no, no, as DH said no fixed wing jet aircraft currently flying in the american arsenal ejects their shell casings. THere are many reasons for this, but the biggest is the risk of accidental ingestion into the engines, and damage to the aircraft from the hot shell slamming back into the aircraft. In general most modern aircraft do not eject their shells, the british harriers do, and so far as I know they are the only close air support aircraft that does. Helicopter door gunner eject their casings, kind of a bad idea in my opinion as they are usually flying right over our guys when they are firing so hot brass does fall on the troops. I do not believe that any current russian aircraft eject their casings but I will have to check that, any that do are likely older models with belly mounted guns.

It always surprised me that in Macross the Valkyries eject their brass, especially considering Kawamoris engineering background. You would be amazed how mch damage one of those spent shells would make in the side of a valkyrie or the SDF-1 if they hit it as the relative velocities might be quite high under certain circumstances. The ejecting brass we see is likely done for a coolness and visual factor, it is a direct indicator of a weapon firing, even when the flash in suppressed or away from the camera.

OH DH I believe that the Mirages and Eurocanards collect them but I will have to check.

Edited April 29, 2004 by Knight26

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Tell me about hot casings. I had the imprint of a 5.56mm cartridge on my right arm for about 4-6 years before the thing faded off.

The guy on my right was left-handed so he was using the cartridge deflector plate. All nice and well except that one got deflected _my_ way!

[Mechamaniac]

Tell me about hot casings. I had the imprint of a 5.56mm cartridge on my right arm for about 4-6 years before the thing faded off.

The guy on my right was left-handed so he was using the cartridge deflector plate. All nice and well except that one got deflected _my_ way!

Yeah, had one land on my ass while firing prone next to some wierdo left hander.

Almost let it ruin my concentration, but I still qualified Expert.

[hellohikaru]

Most Mirages carry a pair of DEFA guns which eject their shells i think.

The Mauser BK27 users(Tornado, EF2000 and Gripen) probably collect their shells.

All Migs prior to 29 eject their shells.

[Knight26]

Upon thinking about it, and checking a few sources I believe that most belly mounted machine guns eject their brass. This is because the brass is almost always thrown clear of the aircraft so there is little to no chance of damage due to the brass hitting it back. Most of those guns are also mounted below and behind the intakes so those are the places where the plane would be most vulnerable to the ejected brass. That being said, with only a few exceptions all fighter and attack aircraft in production or widespeard use, with the exception of Vietnam era aircraft or those derived directly from them, collect their brass.

[David Hingtgen]

I found it very interesting that the F-5 ejects its shells, I'm betting the F-20 would have too. Ejects straight down, behind the nosegear door.

[Mule]

I think A-10s just eject the spent casings.  Infact I remember seing an interview with a soldier or a Marine about being showered with A-10 casings during a fight.

No, no, no, as DH said no fixed wing jet aircraft currently flying in the american arsenal ejects their shell casings.

After doing some looking I see that I was quite mistaken. Maybe I should do the research BEFORE speaking

[KingNor]

i think the danger of falling casings in any situation would be negligable. a casing with no bullet in it is pretty light, i dont' think it would hurt much no matter how high it was dropped from. and even then, the chance of being hit, even if on the ground under an old style dogfight is still pretty low.

i'm just guessing though.

[ewilen]

i think the danger of falling casings in any situation would be negligable. a casing with no bullet in it is pretty light, i dont' think it would hurt much no matter how high it was dropped from. and even then, the chance of being hit, even if on the ground under an old style dogfight is still pretty low.

i'm just guessing though.

I agree that casings are probably too light (really, not dense enough) to do much damage. But a lot of the shells/bullets in a dogfight miss their target, and after that they only have one direction they can go. I wonder if there are any known injuries from dogfights over populated areas?

[Vespaeda]

Long time no post...

Saw the topic and found it very interesting. I happen to remember reading an entry by a member on an aviation forum and he commented on exactly this,

from his own experiences.

IIRC, he said he grew up during the Blitz and would watching the curling & crossing contrails in the sky w/his friends in the street. He said his father had use of a car related to his job and was very proud of it in those austere times.

He went on to relate that he became furious when he came out one day to see a .303 round had made the trip all the way down and burrowed into the bonnet near the windshield wipers.

I always remember that scene in "War in the Pocket" when the kid's mom gets fatally clocked in the head w/that huge-ass casing during the GM-suits urban gunfight.

[Phyrox]

IIRC, he said he grew up during the Blitz and would watching the curling & crossing contrails in the sky w/his friends in the street. He said his father had use of a car related to his job and was very proud of it in those austere times.

He went on to relate that he became furious when he came out one day to see a .303 round had made the trip all the way down and burrowed into the bonnet near the windshield wipers.

Ah, that is just the sort of stuff we have been hoping to find. Alas there just isn't much out there. Thanks for the anecdote.

[Stamen0083]

I always remember that scene in "War in the Pocket" when the kid's mom gets fatally clocked in the head w/that huge-ass casing during the GM-suits urban gunfight.

I think that was in F-91, but it's been a long time since I've seen either, so I might be wrong.