Why don't Valks have beam sabres

[Mr March]

Umm, I wouldn't call the AWG-9 and AWG-20 different versions of the same radar. AWG is an ultra-generic term. Same as "F". The F-4 and F-22 are VERY different planes. Same for AWG-9 and AWG-20 radars.

AWG=Airborne Weapons Guidance. And like all things, it has been superceded by a new term, APG.

APG=Airborne Pulsed(radar) Guidance. See, "R" was already taken by "Radio" so they went with "P" for "Pulsed" since that's what type they are. (Surely you've heard the term "pulse-doppler" radar for the local weather reports)

PS--the upgraded AWG-9 is the APG-71, which is installed in the F-14D. Not suprised Shin doesn't have it, for he doesn't appear to have ANY of the F-14D's avionics enhancements.

I couldn't agree more. Just like FCS = Fire Control System. It's not a specific designation but rather a term for the equipment.

[Final Vegeta]

I am sorry if I have annoyed folks here. I don't know the point anymore, so I'll quit after this.

My thought is Kawamori was not lame enough to create a radar which simply overcame Minowsky particles. He just exploited gaps in Minowsky particles defence.

The next logical step was: if the VF-0 is able to detect SV-51, its missiles would be able to do that thing as well, wouldn't? Why shouldn't they use the same system if it works?

Now, what does guide those micromissiles? Compendium helps again.

SV-51:

18 Turopov SA-19M I/IR-guided micro-missiles

VF-0:

twenty-four Raytheon Erlikon GH-30B I/IR-guided micro-missiles

VF-0 could use even I/ALH guided missiles, which is a laser based guidance AFAIK.

I will introduce even Macross Plus in this disputation. You surely know the famous scene where Guld unleashes all his missiles on Isamu. Isamu turned off his engines and launched some flares.

Why did this thing work? Because those missiles were heat-seekers. Turning off engines does not affect any other kinds of radar guidance system, AFAIK.

My thought is that most of Macross weapons don't rely on radar, and Valkyries are the same. Why was VF-0 able to track SV-51? Maybe because Roy could see it and designate it as a target with his eye-trackers. When Roy emerged after being buried by rocks, he couldn't detect Ivanov anymore. Valkyrie's detecting devices have limits; of course they don't have them if their opponent is a normal fighter, but I believe a typical OT mecha engagement is not BVR.

The Cyclops may not be technologically compatible with standard radar, meaning they work on different principles, thus not being integrated. And it was not used as a radar backup during combat either, so I don't think standard Macross radars are enhanced with Cyclops. Likely to be OT, but not Cyclops enhanced.

The funny thing is that if Anti-UN managed to get its hand on the AFOS, UN-Spacy would use the Cyclops to follow them everywhere on the planet

Then there is a last new thing partly unrelated: Nanashi talked about Valkyries having laser coating. I believe this could true and official. Reasons?

I've heard some real world weapon use a laser to light a target producing a little spot on the target with a characteristical heat signature of a particular frequency not to be mistaken from other signatures. The missile is instructed to search that specific IR signature.

Now, I've also heard Minowsky particles block affect even IR, though not blocking them entirely. I think this was supposed to defeat that guidance system.

A Valkyrie's active stealth is supposed to block only radar, though, but if you'd have a laser coating, you could still prevent enemy from lighting you with a low level laser. Also, it could be useful for other things.

I am no military geek, I came to know these things because I was interested in Macross and I made some connections, but I could easily be proven wrong. Mine was just a thought.

FV

[JB0]

I am sorry if I have annoyed folks here. I don't know the point anymore, so I'll quit after this.

My thought is Kawamori was not lame enough to create a radar which simply overcame Minowsky particles. He just exploited gaps in Minowsky particles defence.

Yes. The gap exploited is the fact that a minovsky particle is a fictitious particle that only exists in Gundam.

*rolls eyes*

Why did this thing work? Because those missiles were heat-seekers. Turning off engines does not affect any other kinds of radar guidance system, AFAIK.

Any other? Are you saying that infrared detectors are a form fo radar?

*rolls eyes again*

Killing engines will affect a whole host of things, BTW.

Including your ability to fly the plane, but we'll assume hte YF-19 has a backup battery.

Then there is a last new thing partly unrelated: Nanashi talked about Valkyries having laser coating. I believe this could true and official. Reasons?

Because a reflective or (mroe likely) superconducting coating makes sense when laser weapons are being used?

Now, I've also heard Minowsky particles block affect even IR, though not blocking them entirely. I think this was supposed to defeat that guidance system.

What do minovsky particles have to do with anything? Macross is not Gundam.

[Mr March]

Uh, I hate to point this out Final Vegeta, but this is not about Gundam; we're talking Macross science fiction here. Indeed some of the earlier posts talked about the influences and homages of each show to one another, but the technology discussion we were having was about the dynamics of the Macross fiction....not Gundam. Whether Cyclops Cross-Dimensional Radar can detect mecha within a Minovsky particle field is a debate for a versus thread...and threads of that type are often locked on MacrossWorld faster than you can say "fanboy"

As for the rest, my whole point was to introduce the most plausible (and definitely the simplest) reason for Valkyries detection capabilities and the dynamics of the Cyclops. And to question these silly fractions and obscure connections between Macross and Gundam mecha. I think I'm beginning to see why these vague "facts" even came up in the first place and that they are anything but official.

Needless to say, I'm glad you show interest in both Gundam and Macross. However nothing has been provided in this discussion to prove any "connections" of a Valkyire being two thirds of a Gundam this and two thirds a Gundam that. Nor has any more plausible reason been provided why the SV-51 Active Stealth was defeated by the VF-0 radar. At the very least, the Cyclops theory uses continuity within Macross Zero OVA and provides a plausible explanation. On the other hand, stating the VF-0 uses the same radar technology as an F-14 is not only untrue just from looking at the visuals in Macross Zero (Roy's tracking system and HUD defy any similarity to an F-14 system) but doesn't make sense since the VF-0 could track the SV-51 and the F-14 could not.

[Mr March]

Wan't the Cyclops some sort of Cross Dimensional Radar? I guess it could see things in different spectrums, dunno really.

It's unclear how the Cyclops functions. It is stated that the system is more advanced than conventional tech and it utilizes Cross-Dimensional Overtechnology. Based on the circumstances in the series, the Cyclops can detect objects within conditions that negate conventional radar. For example, the Cyclops can detect underwater, a medium that nullifies normal radar.

[azrael]

It's unclear how the Cyclops functions. It is stated that the system is more advanced than conventional tech and it utilizes Cross-Dimensional Overtechnology. Based on the circumstances in the series, the Cyclops can detect objects within conditions that negate conventional radar. For example, the Cyclops can detect underwater, a medium that nullifies normal radar.

Or it could be that the Cyclops system only detects a certain things, or certain reactions.

http://www.anime.net/macross/story/encyclo...lops/index.html

Cross dimension radar developed with Overtechnology which can detect PCS readings

In most instances we've seen it used, it detected AFOS, the missing head of AFOS, and the instance of Sarah singing in the holy spring. Maybe the system only detects uses of Protoculture-based systems (i.e. fold/defolds, Spiritia reactions, etc, etc, etc).

[Final Vegeta]

Any other? Are you saying that infrared detectors are a form fo radar?

Actually, no. Maybe I miswrote it. I said it was a guidance system for missiles.

Killing engines will affect a whole host of things, BTW.

True, but radar don't mind engines being on or off.

When they tried to see if F-117's stealth worked, they sticked a model on a pole and put it in front of the radar. The radar guy said the model must have fallen because he couldn't see it on screen, then after a while he said he actually could see it. A bird rested on the model.

The model had no engines, the bird either.

What do minovsky particles have to do with anything? Macross is not Gundam.

According to what my Italian Macross DVD edition booklet says, Studio Nue invented them. They were a Matsutaki's idea. That's the connection with Macross.

FV

Edited May 6, 2004 by Final Vegeta

[JB0]

Any other? Are you saying that infrared detectors are a form fo radar?

Actually, no. Maybe I miswrote it. I said it was a guidance system for missiles.

Okay.

Sounded like you said IR was a form of radar...

Killing engines will affect a whole host of things, BTW.

True, but radar don't mind engines being on or off.

When they tried to see if F-117's stealth worked, they sticked a model on a pole and put it in front of the radar. The radar guy said the model must have felt because he couldn't see it on screen, then after a while he said he actually could see it. A bird rested on the model.

The model had no engines, the bird either.

But...

If you cut the engines off, you can close the intake and exhaust ports. And TAHT reduces the radar signature(assuming the cover panels are designed right).

What do minovsky particles have to do with anything? Macross is not Gundam.

According to what my Italian Macross DVD edition booklet says, Studio Nue invented them. They were a Matsutaki's idea. That's the connection with Macross.

FV

Your booklet needs to mention that minovski particles only exist in Gundam.

They're little more than a random piece of gibberish made up to justify melee combat between squads of giant robots, and a general lack of anything resembling good aim.

Edited May 5, 2004 by JB0

[David Hingtgen]

Engines have the largest radar signature of anything. Why do you think F-18E's have baffles in the intake? It cuts thrust, probably makes them run hotter, and reduces their acceleration. But it's considered worth it, since it hides the engines a bit from radar. Nothing returns a radar wave like a spinning blade. 777's have probably the largest radar signature of any aircraft due to their engine blades (especially the new RR engines). A massive amount of the F-117's engineering went into making the engines "invisible".

A stopped engine will still give off a large radar reflection, but smaller than a running engine.

[Zentrandude]

When they tried to see if F-117's stealth worked, they sticked a model on a pole and put it in front of the radar. The radar guy said the model must have felt because he couldn't see it on screen, then after a while he said he actually could see it. A bird rested on the model.

The model had no engines, the bird either.

the radar must been far away enough cuz wouldnt it cook the bird?

[Phyrox]

When they tried to see if F-117's stealth worked, they sticked a model on a pole and put it in front of the radar. The radar guy said the model must have felt because he couldn't see it on screen, then after a while he said he actually could see it. A bird rested on the model.

The model had no engines, the bird either.

the radar must been far away enough cuz wouldnt it cook the bird?

I may be showing my ignorance of modern high powered radars...but since when have radio haves been dangerous enough to cook anything?

[Greyryder]

When they tried to see if F-117's stealth worked, they sticked a model on a pole and put it in front of the radar. The radar guy said the model must have felt because he couldn't see it on screen, then after a while he said he actually could see it. A bird rested on the model.

The model had no engines, the bird either.

the radar must been far away enough cuz wouldnt it cook the bird?

I may be showing my ignorance of modern high powered radars...but since when have radio haves been dangerous enough to cook anything?

High powered short wave radio will cook an object. That's how a microwave oven works. Things usually don't stay infront of a RADAR antena long to be cooked. I don't think they're as intense as the inside of a microwave.

The team competing against the F-117 new they were screwed anyway, when the F-117 guys showed up with a stealth pole to put the model on.

[Zentrandude]

Radar

[Phyrox]

Radar

Nothing new there...I didn't see anything about a threat of being cooked.

Sure, it could be hazardous to your health (or that of a bird), but nothing indicating the level of energy absorbtion required to heat anything...or even kill it outright.

[Zentrandude]

if you read it. it one of the hazzards is the heat spots. on people you proly get little warm and all cancerous but for little animals like birds its like a death ray. it doesnt take much to kill them little things.

[Phyrox]

If you insist that the damage is due to heat, why would it be a death ray for bird-sized animals? Their skin is nearly as effective at temperature dispersion as human skin, and that article didn't indicate, nor do believe that temperatures on "heat spots" get so high as to cause outright lethal damage.

I never said radar's were not dangerous if you sat in front of one all day, but I still don't think you've made a good case for a bird perched in front of one to have been "cooked," as you said. I suppose you were using hyperbole...

[Wabbit]

Good idea... Let's cut those missiles into bits without fearing them to blow up on my face if I would do that and block incoming beam shots and other discharges from distance weapons like a jedi...

It isn't gundam! Give them a bajonet like on the the VF-11 gunpod for close quarters fighting, that is sufficient and the most logical thing to do.

Beam sabres... Next are giant tower shields...

Edited May 6, 2004 by Wabbit

[Zentrandude]

you know whats funny i was asking a question and hes getting all defencive.

also birds have feathers so i dont think they can dissapate heat as well as ppl plus less blood to help circulate the heat around.

anyways after this i wont post no more about radar dangers. seems like its a debate for the scientist, politicians, and businesses been having from what I read.

While there is no scientific proof that base stations for mobile phones (power level of 20 Watts) have any negative physical effect on living beings, even short exposures to high-power microwaves (like inside microwave ovens, in proximity of radar dishes, military airplanes and military electronic countermeasure systems, which all have power levels of about 500 Watts to 1 Gigawatt) cause all tissue to heat up, which leads to the destructions of internal organs, and the whitening of the eye's lens.

Consequences range from immediate blindness to organ failure, brain bleedings and death.

As a rule of thumb, the higher the frequency, the less power is needed for electromagnetic waves to become dangerous to living beings. That's why your (illegal) 800 Watts CB (20 MHz) booster amplifier is harmless, yet watching your microwave dinner becoming warm from inside your microwave oven (2450 MHz) is not.

Luckily for all of us, microwaves can be relatively easily and safely contained inside a Faraday Cage. This cage can even have holes, but they should not exceed the size of several milimeters in order to securely block microwaves from passing through.

[Final Vegeta]

Maybe there is a misunderstanding, I am not talking about plagiarizing or anything, if that is what you fear. Studio Nue created scientific references for both Yamato and Gundam. They inserted them in Macross as they inserted theirselves as characters in the story. Shoo Blackstone (director of Minmay's movie) = Noburo Ishiguro (alternative reading/translation) and so on. Did you read AnimeIgo's liner notes? Knowing what they are capable of, I would not be surprised if most of stats had a meaning behind.

Fanboys seem to have some misconceptions about anime, like thinking the author does everything aside from chara, mecha, animation and music, and also thinking the peoples who worked in a franchise can't have worked in other franchises (except when they are "authors", then they are free to do as they want. The bulk are still family slaves traded in bundle with the franchise; every time there is a new series in the franchise they must work on it). I am free from such misconceptions.

And I am not turning this into a VS. Well, I can't say I was without faults in that department, but I am turning this into a thread about how Macross came to be that way. Logic says you can't know a person if you don't know where it came from.

Japaneses can only hint at best. They are born with a facial paresis, so they developed such typical Japanese themes like not being able to express own emotions. I came to know there is a textbook for learning Japanese which is called "Do you have a bag?". That was how a Japanese waiter once tried to warn his customer about a thief.

Japaneses don't tell you things so easily. They have a passion for subtlety. So, simplest answer can be right, but simplifying typical Japanese subtlety ignoring all of it is wrong. In Macross there is a Ionesco city and not a Minowsky city because naming a city over Minowsky would have been gross, wouldn't? For stating mecha power output they used PS, BHP, GGv... why not even once kW?

Here come the references. Do you actually have a grasp of how many references there are in Macross? Macross is kinda a "reference anime", like Fushigi no Umi no Nadia or Shinseiki Evangelion (Gainax learned all from Macross). They are packed full of references, but they have also something on their own. Maybe you don't know the references, that's why you think I said the things I said. Maybe you don't know Breast Fighter in katakana is only slightly different from Mazinger Breast Fire's spelling. You don't know half of the things I know, and I discover new details everyday.

The city inside Macross was an original Studio Nue's idea for Ulysses 31 (refused by Ulysses 31's sponsor, though), but refugees inside a ship reference Gundam (whenever I talk about Gundam in this post I mean only 0079 and RX-78, obviously), although in Gundam they didn't stay inside the ship for long. The idea was Studio Nue original, but it was portrayed in a way which made it a reference. This is how Macross' references are done. Kinda like the VF-17s in the opening of Macross 7 which perform a Dom-like Jet Stream, but in the actual anime they never did that thing, a tongue-in-cheek.

And then obviously there are several nods to Yamato and Gundam. Contrary to what someone thinks, most Mobil Suits don't actually spread Minowsky particles. Only spaceships and Mobil Armors can do it. The Quel-Quallie as seen in "Miss Macross", being able to jam both radar and radio, was a perfect Mobil Armor. Yes, Macross has even laser communications to counter that, and that was the mocking nod.

At first I thought most of SDF-1's stats were based on Yamato, but SDF-1 looked like Yamato only in the earlier sketches. With the main cannon open it now looks more like the White Base.

Now, I took from mahq the stats of White Base.

White Base: 2-barrel 580mm main gun (in the front between the two hangars)

SDF-1: Macross Cannon (converging beam weapons need two barrels)

White Base: 2 x 2-barrel mega particle gun (these came out from the round shields in the sides IIRC)

SDF-1: 4 high speed 178-cm-diameter electro magnetic rail cannons (they are in the sides)

White Base: 8 x anti-aircraft 2-barrel machinegun

SDF-1: 8 Overtechnology guided converging beam cannon system

Can you see the pattern? Every projectile based gun turned into an energy weapon, and vice versa.

Pick the Gundam and the Valkyrie and the same is true even for them. Beam Rifle -> Gunpod, Vulcans -> head lasers.

Still not convinced? Let's throw in Yamato.

Look here. Scroll down a bit

The Cosmo Tiger MkI in Macross became the ghost QF-3000. It is that obvious to me. It has three muzzles on each side. Notice: Cosmo Tiger has lasers, the ghost has 55 mm guns. What real world fighter has ever had 6 guns?

Are you convinced now?

The Cosmo Tiger MkII in Macross became a VF-1. Notice, it can have an anti-aircraft turret on the top. In Macross it was on the bottom. I think I misinterpreted missile and laser complement on Valkyrie, it was related more likely to be related to Yamato than to Gundam.

Anyway, the muzzle area of a 580 mm gun (White Base) is 2640,74 cm^2. The muzzle area of a 178 cm gun (Macross) is 24871,94 cm^2. Notice, is nearly ten times. Not over ten times, a bit less out of respect. It was the same for Valkyrie's power output compared to Gundam's.

But I can understand tricky math is dubious. I am still working on the details after all, maybe I will find there is no real correlation.

Notice however that what was White Base's main weapon it became a secondary weapon for the SDF-1 compared to Macross Cannon, and what was Yamato's main weapon became a secondary weapon for the SDF-1 compared to Omni-directional Barrier. It's even funny how the aircraft carrier (Yamato/Prometheus) and the robot carrier (White Base/Daedalus) became the arms of the SDF-1.

Some times ago I told you the Compendium says Valkyries were built on Apollo lunar base and space colonies. That was exactly where Gundam was built. VF-1 and RX-78 are kinda like lost brothers, and the same is true for SDF-1 and Yamato.

Yamato's Wave Motion Gun fires tachyons, time particles. Macross' Macross Cannon fires superdimensional energy, and the Compendium said in the fallacies kanji "superdimensional" means "exceeding space and time".

I've read the Yamato could fire its Wave Motion from near Earth orbit and just about hit the surface of the Moon with it's effects. In the first Macross episode the Macross destroyed two ships entering lunar orbit.

Yamato has an onboard spare parts factory. Macross onboard could build a third Monster and develop the Phalanx.

Yamato has FTL travels (using tachyon engine) and Macross has Fold.

Yamato has anti-missile missiles and anti-missile screen gun and Macross has PinPoint Barrier (which was used to stop missiles a lot, more than energy blasts).

Yamato has reflector force-field and Macross has Omni-directional Barrier.

Yamato has asteroid polarity shield and Macross... well, did you know Macross once had something called "Asteroid Cracker"? IIRC, it was Daedalus Attack's former name.

Yamato has sub-space "sonar and in Macross they could detect folding and defolding reactions.

Now I have even changed my mind. It is indeed possible Cyclops was thought in 1982. I have a theory for this, which is a supposition like laser coating. Superdimensional energy should be the energy found in the fold sub-universe, that's my theory. Folding and defolding could create waves or the like in this energy which are what is detected. Based on this theory, the Cyclops could detect objects which have once folded, have a fold engine or something like that.

Then, in Macross 7 (there is something said in the movie as well) Chiba once talked about superdimensional energy in a context which was related to spiritia, so I think spiritia is a kind of superdimensional energy, not necessarily the one of fold sub-universe. Sara's singing stirred waves in that energy, and that's why Cyclops tracked her.

What is funny is that "superdimensional" (as in the energy used by Macross Cannon) was in fact a makeshift, because the original title was "Super Dreadnought Fortress", but the kanji "dokyu" print was not widely diffused, and there were a lot of mistypes, so at the end they changed it. Notice though that initials have always been the same of Self Defence Forces. And I've even heard there was a Japanese politician called Kaifun, but I know nothing about him, although I am sure he had some role regarding SDF.

Anyway, Macross can do all the things Yamato and Gundam can do. They have a different name, and work in different ways (you could even say improved), but they are all in-jokes. Macross obviously chose to conceal them because they were like easter eggs, but they are there.

I think I will ask it to Egan Loo, praying for his good health.

As for the other matter, I openly admit I was wrong on the AWG thing, but I confirm I have no real knowledge of military world. As for the HUD, I thought it was simply an interface not really connected to an underlying implementation, that is it could be as fancy as it wanted but the radar worked on the same principles, although improved.

Mr March, you started saying Valkyries' radar has Cyclops here and there, then you said Cyclops wasn't meant to track Valyries ("Sh*t! Why does it keep pointing 500 km on my left, and underwater also?"), then you said again SV-51 was tracked for a reason called Cyclops enhancement. I can't follow you anymore.

Do you really want the simplest answer? FLIR. Forward Looking Infra-Red sensors. They see the most notable heat sources and paint a circle in the HUD in those positions. Since they are two they could even calculate ranges like with stereo vision.

Anyway, if you use active radar this would give away your position, active stealth or not, so FLIRs are better.

I also admit I didn't know radar watch all the way through the engines, though this is Macross so I am still right. Try to think with the POV of Guld's missiles: if you peep you won't see a turbine, the only thing you will see is a nuclear reaction, which is really scary for a radar (do you remember Macross' first episodes?). Plasma is not really radar friendly. Have you ever heard of plasma stealth? Try Google

I talked of Minowsky particles theory to a guy with a degree in Physics, and he said the effects are the same of hyper-compressed plasma, even the fusion into mega-particles comes from that phenomenon. He congratulated with the one who thinked the whole theory for its coherence (take this, JBO ). And there is no proof Minowsky particles don't exist in Macross universe either, given Ionesco City. JBO, you are mean, I should sing you a song

P.S.: to give some more food for your mind, have you noticed how in the movie they didn't even mention once how YF-21 was that stealth? They even cut the "neat trick" scene.

FV

Edited May 7, 2004 by Final Vegeta

[Neova]

FV,

That was a great read! I think I need to pickup Space Battleship (was cruiser) Yamato and the whole Gundam Series DVD sets again (gave them away cuz the story about a kid fighting off elite soldiers... ugh... ok save it for another thread).

[JB0]

Yamato has FTL travels (using tachyon engine) and Macross has Fold.

So do some 3/4s of all sci-fi programs.

Did you notice that one of the displays on the Macross' birdge is running the computer game "Trek"?

Star Trek's shields also degrade with damage, just like Macross. And the shield generators explode when the shields take too much damage, just like Macross.

And there's talking vending machines in Red Dwarf, just like Macross.

I also admit I didn't know radar watch all the way through the engines, though this is Macross so I am still right. Try to think with the POV of Guld's missiles: if you peep you won't see a turbine, the only thing you will see is a nuclear reaction, which is really scary for a radar (do you remember Macross' first episodes?). Plasma is not really radar friendly. Have you ever heard of plasma stealth?

Actually, you WILL see a turbine. The fusion reaction is contained internally. All that gets out of the reactor and into the turbine is heat.

And in the first episodes of Macross, plasma wasn't the problem. This can be determined by thinking for a moment. Plasma would, lacking a massive gravitational field(just so you don't whine about stars, I will state the obvious qualifier), dissipate and cool almost instantantaneously in space.

The area was full of heavy atoms that were rapidly degrading and sending out more particles. Add a nice confetti of spaceship to that, and you have an incredibly nasty environment to be sending radio waves through.

Hell, the confetti alone would be problematic, as it works like the famous low-tech anti-radar tool known as chaff(the outer skin may be made of radar-absorbant materials, but the majority of the mass is INSIDE that skin, and made of something lighter, less exotic, and far more reflective).

I should also point out that plasma stealth relies upon tightly controlled and regulated amounts. Otherwise, you just light yourself up like the 4th of July for anyone that isn't deaf, dumb, and blind.

Just HAVING a fusion generator doesn't mean you have plasma stealth. You need that plasma to GENERATE POWER. It stays in the reactor untill it cools below useful levels. At which point it is no longer plasma. And if it was being sprayed out the exhaust like you believe, it would be a giant "shoot me" sign, NOT a stealth mechanism.

I talked of Minowsky particles theory to a guy with a degree in Physics, and he said the effects are the same of hyper-compressed plasma, even the fusion into mega-particles comes from that phenomenon. He congratulated with the one who thinked the whole theory for its coherence (take this, JBO ).

Did you mention the part about minovsky particles being generated spontaneously by He3 fusion and scrambling EM radiation? You know, the RELEVANT part?

I never argued that you couldn't do neat things with microfusion, or that certain EFFECTS of Gundam's physics model weren't plausable . Just that MINOVSKY PARTICLES AREN'T REAL.

And there is no proof Minowsky particles don't exist in Macross universe either, given Ionesco City. JBO, you are mean, I should sing you a song

There's no proof that the SDF-1 doesn't have Voltron's Blazing Sword tucked away in the Prometheus either. Or that there aren't Jedi Zentradi running around throwing lightning bolts while blocking lasers with their lightsabers.

Shall we continue this idiocy, or acknowledge that one show's gimmick can't be interpolated into all shows on a whim?

There are no minovsky particles in Macross untill such time as it is stated in a canon source. Or any similar plot device.

P.S.: to give some more food for your mind, have you noticed how in the movie they didn't even mention once how YF-21 was that stealth? They even cut the "neat trick" scene.

Because it wasted time that they wanted to spend doing other stuff. Time in a movie is at a premium. You don't waste it on unimportant or less-important things.

If a Star Trek movie doesn't use the transporter, that doesn't mean the transporter doesn't exist, just that it was not absolutely needed for the tale being told, and would have taken valuble seconds from other scenes.

BTW...

The Macross Compendium is considered canon for all intents and purposes, as it is officially sanctioned by Big West.

http://macross.anime.net/mecha/united_nati...yf21/index.html

Look to Avionics. The third item is "Active stealth system."

[peter]

I think that if the Valk ran out of bullets in it's gun, it would probably transform and fly away. If that didn't work, I suppose it could use it's gun as a club and smash the head of the enemy (assuming the Valk is fighting Valkrie-metal-robot hand-to-zentraedi-flesh-hand).

If the gun were somehow seized from the Valk and it were left with nothing to fight with but it's metal-robot-hands and thrust-vectoring-nozzle-feet, it could always resort to it's head-mounted-lasers to cut off it's opponent's fleshy-head.

[F-ZeroOne]

The Cosmo Tiger MkI in Macross became the ghost QF-3000. It is that obvious to me. It has three muzzles on each side. Notice: Cosmo Tiger has lasers, the ghost has 55 mm guns. What real world fighter has ever had 6 guns?

Possibly the wrong thing to ask given all the aviation nuts around here... Off the top of my head:

P-51D Mustang, F-86 Sabre: six .50 calibre machine guns.

P-47 Thunderbolt: eight .50 calibre machine guns.

Supermarine Spitfire Mk. I, II, Hawker Hurricane Mk. I: eight .303 calibre machine guns.

North American B-25 Mitchell, depending on configuration: up to eight .50 calibre machine guns, plus occasionally more in side pods and two more if turret locked to fire forward.

One can also argue that multi-barrel guns like the M-61 Vulcan could be classed as multiple guns.

It is unusual for an aircraft to have more than one gun larger than 20 or 30 mm calibre though - though the Macross Compendium only lists them as "large bore cannon"...

Edited May 9, 2004 by F-ZeroOne

[David Hingtgen]

And then we can start listing all the 4 gun/2 cannon planes the Luftwaffe had...

6 guns were pretty standard for late WWII. P-38's had 5, rather unusual.

Edited May 9, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Lezt]

or all the 8 machine gun spits and huricanse in the RAF....

[flippant_remark]

Here's a melee attack for the VF1...

"The Valkyrie Kiss"

Position your head lasers so that they are pointing forward.

Grab your opponent with both hands and ram your valk's head into them as hard as possible. The aim being to pierce your opponents armour with your head lasers.

Once penetration has been acheived, Fire lasers!

[VF-19]

or all the 8 machine gun spits and huricanse in the RAF....

Oh and the 12 gun Hurricane Mk 2b. Pity they're 30 cal though...

But yah, the FW-190 had an option of carrying 2 double 20 mm pods (4 20 mm pods). Some of those planes can shred things to pieces.

[David Hingtgen]

Oh man, I love all the Fw190 underwing gun options. You could equip 190's with just about any number and size of armament you wanted.

[VF-19]

Oh man, I love all the Fw190 underwing gun options. You could equip 190's with just about any number and size of armament you wanted.

At various severity of performance loss. Then again, adding anything to the underneath of a wing always reduces performance somewhat.

I play IL-2 Forgotten Battles with the Ace Expansion Pack, and although I have no idea of how accurate the flight models are, the FW-190 is very tricky to fly. It gets even trickier with the underwing options... But man, is it worth it.

[David Hingtgen]

Better than adding stuff to the top of the wings.

[F-ZeroOne]

or all the 8 machine gun spits and huricanse in the RAF....

Oh and the 12 gun Hurricane Mk 2b. Pity they're 30 cal though...

But yah, the FW-190 had an option of carrying 2 double 20 mm pods (4 20 mm pods). Some of those planes can shred things to pieces.

Can't believe I forgot this one:

Bristol Beaufighter. 4 20mm cannon, 6 .303 machine guns, and even one pointing out the back.

As someone once said, absolutely the last aeroplane on Earth you'd want to see lining up a strafing run on you...

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

P-61! 4 x 20mm and 4 x 12.7mm.

P-39s' had 5 guns too.

IIRC the B-25 takes up to 8 in the nose and 4 more in sidepacks. Excluding the turrets.

And that funny JV-44 Me-262 1a-U1 with the 2 x MG151, 2 x Mk108 and 2 x Mk103. Wierd combination if u ask me. But hits harder then anything else in the sky at that time. 6 x MG151 or 4 x Mk103 would have made more sense if that was possible.

Edited May 15, 2004 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[Druna Skass]

Better than adding stuff to the top of the wings.

You mean like the Jaguar's over-wing sidewinder pylons?

[David Hingtgen]

Exactly. The upper wing surface is more important, aerodynamically. That's why engines and weapons are generally underslung, not overslung. If you want to see a plane with its engines mounted above the wing, see the VFW-614.

[Druna Skass]

Exactly. The upper wing surface is more important, aerodynamically. That's why engines and weapons are generally underslung, not overslung. If you want to see a plane with its engines mounted above the wing, see the VFW-614.

There's also a small airliner made by Fokker (is it 2 Ks or a C for the company?)that has the engines over the wings. Or is that the plane your talking about?