Why don't Valks have beam sabres

[KingNor]

i'll probably get flamed for this:

i think macross TVshow always had an air of "keeping things realistic" now i realize that transforming jetplanes and giant aliens from space is far from real in of itself... BUT to me, Macross always tried to keep things grounded...

my examples are that the valk is designed to LOOK like it would work. it doesn't morph or teleport or phase in extra parts from somewhere, it reconfigures in a very beleivable way. and there always seemed to be a counterballance of technology: "look how far out that stuff is, makes sence it hardly ever works" sort of thing. the more fantastic the technology in macross, the rare-er it is that it will actually function.

i think, given the level of restraint in macross's "fantasy" the lazer swords don't quite fit.

also just a thought, aside from the k-bar knife, i dont' think US troops are issued any kind of aditional melee weapons, not even a baynette if i remember correct, not anymore. and if you think about it, a human vs a human is a much more fair fight than a human vs a robot. so i think that kind of sums it up.

Edited April 29, 2004 by KingNor

[Druna Skass]

also just a thought, aside from the k-bar knife, i dont' think US troops are issued any kind of aditional melee weapons

That's what I'm trying to get at. Some modern infantry troops still carry around some kind of knife, so why not equip a VF with a knife if they're supposed to mirror modern infantry troops when in battroid mode? I'm saying a forearm switchblade so the pilot wouldn't have to draw it, it's already at hand.

Yes I know the knife is also a tool, though I'm sure a resourcful VF pilot could find some other uses for a forearm knife.

[baronv]

We are discussing a cartoon right? Why so much hub-bub...beam sabres, bayonets, etc.... all in all this is a cartoon and anything is possible. Come on, transforming airplanes, giant humanoid aliens that freak out when a guy and girl kiss or when they hear a song. If you think this is grounded in reality, then pass over the joint you're smoking there buddy.

[Knight26]

also just a thought, aside from the k-bar knife, i dont' think US troops are issued any kind of aditional melee weapons

That's what I'm trying to get at. Some modern infantry troops still carry around some kind of knife, so why not equip a VF with a knife if they're supposed to mirror modern infantry troops when in battroid mode? I'm saying a forearm switchblade so the pilot wouldn't have to draw it, it's already at hand.

Yes I know the knife is also a tool, though I'm sure a resourcful VF pilot could find some other uses for a forearm knife.

Like I said before, fast moving metal fist against soft fleshy face, or soft fleshy face behind glass visor, hmmm I think the fast moving metal fist wins. The Early valks were given humanoid form in order to more effectively fight on the ground, but even then if inc lose quarters they towered over a standard zentraedi!!! Later the VF-11 cannon was fitted with a bayonet to fight an enemy that was on par in size and strength, the new battlesuits. Those bayonets though seem to be an afterthought to me, in design terms, added because these new battlesuits were able to get in close and overpower the VF-11s. The VF-19 and VF-22 compensated for this further adding the pinpoint barrier punch giving the valks an installed never lost melee weapon, unless their arms get blown off. Garunteed that pinpoint barrier punch would inflict much more damage then the Mecha K-Bar you are thinking of.

[Druna Skass]

Garunteed that pinpoint barrier punch would inflict much more damage then the Mecha K-Bar you are thinking of.

Would it be able to tear through thick bulkheads as fast as a vibro-knife? Yeah the Macross was able to do it eaily, but a VF doesn't have that kind of power behind it's fist.

I'm just thinking the knife would me more useful that a pin-point barrier shielded fist, since the knife can also be used as a tool.

[jwinges]

interesting discussion. I'm not hung up on beam sabres or heat axes...I was just curious about the lack of macross melee weapons. Especially since there are several occasions of Aces running out of ammo. Just think how often a panicky cannon fodder pilot would run out of ammo.

I just think something simple like a bayonette or prog knife would be a simple and cheap alternative to simply dying. Yeah bullets are better and the safest option but you'd think they would have a backup besides the simple head lasers.

I do like that the later valks have some "other" form of armorment like pin point fist punch (19 &21,22), and the shield spike of the vf11.

Shields are another thing. Maybe not an obvious shield like the 11B but more like just the arm armors that were on the supper and strike valks. Those alone can withstand laser and missle hits from a battlepod or glaug. Yeah you sacrifice some speed but valks are already so much faster than pods and glaugs that a little more protection would be sensible. Think of the difference in cost. pay for a A little extra armor or an entire valk.

Now for my next thought provoking question.

Edited April 29, 2004 by jwinges

[Zentrandude]

everyone keeps forgetting the one melee weapon valks like vf-1 have. the deadly hemroids of death also known as the nose cone. the valk just need to sit on somebuddy and its hello interspecies relationship.

[Final Vegeta]

The F-14's in Macross Zero were completely unable to track the SV-51.  Once the VF-0 came into play, the Cyclops systems on the Valkyrie had no trouble tracking and launching missiles against the SV-51's Active Stealth system.

It was not the Cyclops. I'll bet my money Cyclops was invented just for Macross Zero. It was some other tracking devices, maybe simply optics/IR.

Cyclops was able to detect AFOS' head. Only counter-spying detected anti-UN forces in the area.

There was a scene in SDF where Roy told automatic pointing systems were useless. That was the concept, a Valkyrie could still fight even in case of strong enemy ECM.

This also follows in Macross Plus, as the YF-21 was virtually undetectable to the VF-11, but the newer YF-19 had no trouble locking on to the YF-21 or tracking it.

Neither HMM missiles used in test had. The YF-21 was invisible to VF-11's RADAR, not all kind of tracking systems. Big difference.

The Valkyrie was given stats to mimic modern aircraft, a passion of Kawamori's.  The size of the Valkyrie, the weight of the Valkyrie, the thrust of the Valkyrie, the ammunition of a Valkyrie all more closely resemble that of a modern combat aircraft and not by mutiples or fractions of Gundam mecha.

He did both at the same time.

Did you know Gunsight One was a Gundam fanzine Kawamori made? Did you know he had a Gundam fanclub #1 card? Do you think Kawamori could only think of the XB-70?

I don't know if ayone can trust me, but YES, the VF-1 (and ONLY the VF-1) was mostly multiples and fractions of RX-78 Gundam (and ONLY the RX-78).

Don't you think Roy destroying a Regult with his head lasers is quoting Gundam? Don't you think the Quel-Quallie remembered a Mobil Armor the first time Hikaru figthed one?

Also, there is a lot of quotations from Yamato, even if I can't tell them. It was all made intentionally.

Macross Zero was simply the first time in the Macross franchise that the plot required Kawamori to supply the audience with a clear indication of just how advanced the tranforming Valkyries were over modern technology.

This is true.

But WHY do you think Kawamori invented energy converting armor in 1982 (and Compendium officially stated the concept was thought in 1982)?

FV

[treatment]

fwiw,

DD's SV-51 detected and tracked Focker's Zero-1S in the jungle-fight of episode-2. Focker couldn't and didn't know where DD was until DD fired at him.

Forgot to mention about the melee between them on the deck of the Asuka in ep-3. Great stuff. Imo, slightly better than the melee between Isamu and Guld.

Edited April 29, 2004 by treatment

[Final Vegeta]

DD's SV-51 detected and tracked Focker's Zero-1S in the jungle-fight of episode-2.  Focker couldn't and didn't know where DD was until DD fired at him.

Thermal image, a non-radar tracking tecnique. Ivanov was more sheltered than Roy and Roy didn't know where to look, that's why Roy didn't see him.

FV

[treatment]

DD's SV-51 detected and tracked Focker's Zero-1S in the jungle-fight of episode-2.  Focker couldn't and didn't know where DD was until DD fired at him.

Thermal image, a non-radar tracking tecnique. Ivanov was more sheltered than Roy and Roy didn't know where to look, that's why Roy didn't see him.

FV

I haven't check the Compendium, yet, but did the Zero have thermal-tracking, too?

[Knight26]

Yes it did, but it didn't have the telescoping head with which to look over the trees to see like DD did.

[Mr March]

It was not the Cyclops. I'll bet my money Cyclops was invented just for Macross Zero. It was some other tracking devices, maybe simply optics/IR.

Cyclops was able to detect AFOS' head. Only counter-spying detected anti-UN forces in the area.

There was a scene in SDF where Roy told automatic pointing systems were useless. That was the concept, a Valkyrie could still fight even in case of strong enemy ECM.

Neither HMM missiles used in test had. The YF-21 was invisible to VF-11's RADAR, not all kind of tracking systems. Big difference.

He did both at the same time.

Did you know Gunsight One was a Gundam fanzine Kawamori made? Did you know he had a Gundam fanclub #1 card? Do you think Kawamori could only think of the XB-70?

I don't know if ayone can trust me, but YES, the VF-1 (and ONLY the VF-1) was mostly multiples and fractions of RX-78 Gundam (and ONLY the RX-78).

Don't you think Roy destroying a Regult with his head lasers is quoting Gundam? Don't you think the Quel-Quallie remembered a Mobil Armor the first time Hikaru figthed one?

Also, there is a lot of quotations from Yamato, even if I can't tell them. It was all made intentionally.

This is true.

But WHY do you think Kawamori invented energy converting armor in 1982 (and Compendium officially stated the concept was thought in 1982)?

FV

The cyclops is not a one-time technology made for Mac 0, anymore than OT Thermo Nuclear engines, energy converting armor, or transformation are never seen anywhere else. Further, the system is enhanced but not infallable. There could have been any number of circumstances why the UN SPacy forces could not detect the Anti-UN including knowing where to look, range, ECM).

Kawamori's inspiration for Macross is clearly Gundam, giant robot shows, and real world aviation. But these vague thirds and fractions make no sense and I see no pattern beyond mere coincidence. Why is the weight two thirds and not the calibur on a GU-11, or the width of a Valkyries foot

Energy converting armor was a necessity of design. Inspired by Gundam...quite possibly. Is the SWAG armor two thirds as strong as Gundarium or a fraction....that would be a negatory I'm sure it's fun fan speculation, but I'm unaware of any official quote or publication stating these obscure connections.

[JELEINEN]

What? No mention of the beam saber weilding VF-1 in the Daicon IV film?

[memphis]

I don't think the flexibility can compareto Zentredi soldiers... for them is a 'suit' they wear on it...but VF is need human to control it...

[Final Vegeta]

The cyclops is not a one-time technology made for Mac 0, anymore than OT Thermo Nuclear engines, energy converting armor, or transformation are never seen anywhere else.

Where is this stated?

I think Cyclops was invented to justify why SDF-1 came to Earth. Even as a decoy, it received a signal from the AFOS and responded.

Anyway, mind the show. Things detected by Cyclops so far:

AFOS (by UN-Spacy, beginning of the story)

Sara singing (by Aries)

AFOS' body (by Ivanov)

AFOS' head (by Nora. The famous PCS)

Nobody still picked up a Valkyrie using the Cyclops. What should the Cyclops detect? Nuclear reaction? They aren't there. Alien technology? Kinda, but VF-0 is made on Earth. How do you tell it to specifically detect a valk?

The pic shows what Cyclops can identify. No Valkyries in the hangar.

So far only the SV-51 showed it had a Cyclops. The VF-0 doesn't have a purpose for it.

Kawamori's inspiration for Macross is clearly Gundam, giant robot shows, and real world aviation.  But these vague thirds and fractions make no sense and I see no pattern beyond mere coincidence.  Why is the weight two thirds and not the calibur on a GU-11, or the width of a Valkyries foot

At least do you agree that in GERWALK and in Fighter mode the armor is three times less effective but the speed is three times greater?

Energy converting armor was a necessity of design.  Inspired by Gundam...quite possibly.  Is the SWAG armor two thirds as strong as Gundarium or a fraction....that would be a negatory   I'm sure it's fun fan speculation, but I'm unaware of any official quote or publication stating these obscure connections.

This are indeed speculations (based on real data, though), but SW-AG was not a necessity. It was made on purpose.

Anyway, why were Zentradies able to build the stealthiest Valkyries (VF-17, YF-21)?

Maybe because Zents' mechas (ie: Regult) were already stealthier than a VF-1 (stronger active stealth, all Macross' enemies have it) and they just kept the habit? Did you ever think of that?

I feel there is something of Macross we have not understood, or to better tell it, it was told only in some dark corner while no-one was listening to Kawamori. What we thought it was new in later shows, it is actually founded on old Macross' basis.

FV

Edited April 30, 2004 by Final Vegeta

[Mr March]

The cyclops is not a one-time technology made for Mac 0, anymore than OT Thermo Nuclear engines, energy converting armor, or transformation are never seen anywhere else.

Where is this stated?

I think Cyclops was invented to justify why SDF-1 came to Earth. Even as a decoy, it received a signal from the AFOS and responded.

Anyway, mind the show. Things detected by Cyclops so far:

AFOS (by UN-Spacy, beginning of the story)

Sara singing (by Aries)

AFOS' body (by Ivanov)

AFOS' head (by Nora. The famous PCS)

Nobody still picked up a Valkyrie using the Cyclops. What should the Cyclops detect? Nuclear reaction? They aren't there. Alien technology? Kinda, but VF-0 is made on Earth. How do you tell it to specifically detect a valk?

The pic shows what Cyclops can identify. No Valkyries in the hangar.

So far only the SV-51 showed it had a Cyclops. The VF-0 doesn't have a purpose for it.

Kawamori's inspiration for Macross is clearly Gundam, giant robot shows, and real world aviation.  But these vague thirds and fractions make no sense and I see no pattern beyond mere coincidence.  Why is the weight two thirds and not the calibur on a GU-11, or the width of a Valkyries foot

At least do you agree that in GERWALK and in Fighter mode the armor is three times less effective but the speed is three times greater?

Energy converting armor was a necessity of design.  Inspired by Gundam...quite possibly.  Is the SWAG armor two thirds as strong as Gundarium or a fraction....that would be a negatory   I'm sure it's fun fan speculation, but I'm unaware of any official quote or publication stating these obscure connections.

This are indeed speculations (based on real data, though), but SW-AG was not a necessity. It was made on purpose.

Anyway, why were Zentradies able to build the stealthiest Valkyries (VF-17, YF-21)?

Maybe because Zents' mechas (ie: Regult) were already stealthier than a VF-1 (stronger active stealth, all Macross' enemies have it) and they just kept the habit? Did you ever think of that?

I feel there is something of Macross we have not understood, or to better tell it, it was told only in some dark corner while no-one was listening to Kawamori. What we thought it was new in later shows, it is actually founded on old Macross' basis.

FV

Where was it stated otherwise? Just because an established technology isn't mentioned repeatedly over and over again, doesn't mean it's suddenly not there. I don't beleive the term OT Thermo Nuclear Raction Engine was ever specifically stated in the Macross Plus OVA or film, but we certainly understand as Macross fans that the Valkyries use them for engines.

The cyclops is the new radar for the UN Spacy. Aries said as much in her briefing and the technology has even been perfected to the point that personnel can use hand-held versions of the device. The VF-0 showed the SV-51 detected upon it's screen several times. Since, in the Macross universe, conventional radar cannot detect active stealth systems, it's obvious the cyclops is in use. But like any electronic detection system, it can be foiled by equally advanced OT ECM.

Regarding the SWAG armor, the Macross Compendium does state it's used in Battroid mode for increased armor strength. However, at no time does it state the WAG is exclusive to battroid mode. Also, Roy states in the Macross Zero Episode 1 that the SWAG armor makes the Valkyries as tough as a tank....but the Valkyrie he pointed at was in Fighter mode at the time and he never said anything about needing to be in any particular mode. Needless to say, it does make more sense (as a pilot) to use the Valkyrie's power for speed and manuvering in fighter and Gerwalk modes rather than wasting it on armor.

The SWAG was certainly a necessity of design. The Valkyries could not have performed some of the feats of structural strength they did in the series/films without it. There had to be some explanation. Hikaru flew his Valkyrie in Gerwalk mode through a bridge without harm in DYRL, through a city block of buildings in SDF Macross episode 1, scrapping along the ground upside down in Gerwalk mode, and crashed into the ground how many times. Yet the Valkyrie was largely intact. Same with Isamu in Macross Plus when Guld forced the VF-11 to crash. Isamu walked away with a bump on his cheek. There had to be some explanation why these aircraft remianed in one piece, while any conventional aircraft would have been shattered to pieces trying those stunts.

The answer is simple, the SWAG armor and it's obvious it can be used in modes outside the Battroid.

Edited May 1, 2004 by Mr March

[justvinnie]

I was under the understanding that only the Y/VF-19 and Y/Vf-21/22 have active stealth. I don't think the Sv-51 was ever mentioned as having active stealth. We see Guld activated his active stealth in M+ and Isamu goes, "Neat trick". His VF-11B was not able to detect the atice stealth cloaked YF-21. This would lead me to think that active stealth probably does not exist yet, and most probably cannot be detected regardless...

vinnie

[Zentrandude]

I was under the understanding that only the Y/VF-19 and Y/Vf-21/22 have active stealth. I don't think the Sv-51 was ever mentioned as having active stealth. We see Guld activated his active stealth in M+ and Isamu goes, "Neat trick". His VF-11B was not able to detect the atice stealth cloaked YF-21. This would lead me to think that active stealth probably does not exist yet, and most probably cannot be detected regardless...

vinnie

active stealth from each vechical would be differnt cuz of the amount of years apart they are. differnt detection tech. today we use radar/lidar in 30 to 40 years from now who knows what we would be using to detect craft.

[azrael]

I think it would be a good time to point out this:

http://www.anime.net/macross/story/encyclo...lops/index.html

IIRC, Aries says the radar system was based on a theory that OT (OverTechnology) eventually brought to the real world. The Compendium doesn't mention that it existed with ASS-1 either, so I would gather that the Cycolps radar system was a human idea.

I don't think the Sv-51 was ever mentioned as having active stealth.

Yes it does.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/anti_un...sv51/index.html

And so does the VF-0.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../vf0/index.html

My guess is, this system is imperfect. It might be nowhere near the YF-21/VF-22's or the YF/VF-19's active stealth system.

Regarding the SWAG armor, the Macross Compendium does state it's used in Battroid mode for increased armor strength. However, at no time does it state the WAG is exclusive to battroid mode.

Hai.

http://www.anime.net/macross/feedback/index.html

The statement is:

Macross co-creator and mecha designer Shoji Kawamori said that variable fighters in general employ surplus energy to strengthen armor in Battroid mode.

Now, this says to me that ECA (Energy-Converting Armor) is avaliable in all modes. However, in battroid mode, the system increases the amount of power going to the system. This is probably due to the fact that a battroid would not have the speed or manueverability as fighter or GERWALK, so the need for stronger armor is necessary to compensate for the decreased speed and movement capability.

[Mr March]

Regarding the SWAG armor, the Macross Compendium does state it's used in Battroid mode for increased armor strength. However, at no time does it state the WAG is exclusive to battroid mode.

Hai.

http://www.anime.net/macross/feedback/index.html

The statement is:

Macross co-creator and mecha designer Shoji Kawamori said that variable fighters in general employ surplus energy to strengthen armor in Battroid mode.

Now, this says to me that ECA (Energy-Converting Armor) is avaliable in all modes. However, in battroid mode, the system increases the amount of power going to the system. This is probably due to the fact that a battroid would not have the speed or manueverability as fighter or GERWALK, so the need for stronger armor is necessary to compensate for the decreased speed and movement capability.

I agree. The SW-AG is probably active all the time, but works more in battroid mode than the others. Or, it could be that the Valkyries are simply contructed of something like hypercarbons that given them incredible structural strength naturally in Fighter and Gerwalk and the SW-AG is actually an augmentation to that. Which would make a Valkyrie far more robust than even I originally thought.

[JB0]

Same with Isamu in Macross Plus when Guld forced the VF-11 to crash. Isamu walked away with a bump on his cheek.

In the movie the incident put him in the hospital. Yay for pilot inertia.

...

But his plane still stayed more or less intact, and he still survived.

[Final Vegeta]

Where was it stated otherwise?  Just because an established technology isn't mentioned repeatedly over and over again, doesn't mean it's suddenly not there.  I don't beleive the term OT Thermo Nuclear Raction Engine was ever specifically stated in the Macross Plus OVA or film, but we certainly understand as Macross fans that the Valkyries use them for engines.

That was stated by the Compendium.

Compendium stated ECA was invented in the old series. Compendium stated the first Valkyrie ever come out had active stealth.

Compendium still hasn't stated Cyclops was meant to track Valkyries.

The cyclops is the new radar for the UN Spacy.

No-one stated it was meant to track Valkyries. Maybe it is able to detect Zentradies' ships, but so far it doesn't have detected a single Valkyrie, and I defy you demonstrating the opposite.

I suggest you to watch again VF-1's page in the Compendium.

VF-1's radar is actually called "AWG-20 radar FCS", not Cyclops.

The VF-0 showed the SV-51 detected upon it's screen several times.  Since, in the Macross universe, conventional radar cannot detect active stealth systems, it's obvious the cyclops is in use.  But like any electronic detection system, it can be foiled by equally advanced OT ECM.

This is the misunderstanding: I've not said Valkyries don't have some kind of radar, just this radar is not a Cyclops type one. Valkyries have also a lot of infrared/optics tracking systems, so radar are not vital for fighting.

For what I think, I believe in close distance VF's radar could be able to defy an almost equally powerful active stealth, or at least there the other tracking systems backupping it, however combat beyond visual range is impaired (unless you are fighting a giant spaceship. The Quel-Quallie had mass detectors).

The SWAG was certainly a necessity of design.  The Valkyries could not have performed some of the feats of structural strength they did in the series/films without it.[cut]The answer is simple, the SWAG armor and it's obvious it can be used in modes outside the Battroid.

Not so obvious. Check again what Compendium says. Why exactly three times, why the number 3?

FV

[The Nighthawk]

Wow. Digress much? Back to the original question of close-quarters weapons on Valkyries, why didn't anyone design some kind of pistol-type gunpod? Semi-automatic, in a higher caliber than the GU-11, and easier to handle in close combat... Obviously in big heated space battles this would be next to useless (unless you took a trip inside a Zentraedi crusier) but later in the series Valkyries are used extensively for urban warfare and pacification of the full-size Zents on Earth. Wouldn't something like a knife or baton, or pistol, be more effective for such operations? Certainly more controllable than a 55mm three-barrelled rotary cannon spewing out a thousand rounds a minute... Even as far as Mac+ and M7 where there's a good deal of city combat. You're trying to defend the place, not rip it to shreds...

[JB0]

Wow. Digress much? Back to the original question of close-quarters weapons on Valkyries, why didn't anyone design some kind of pistol-type gunpod? Semi-automatic, in a higher caliber than the GU-11, and easier to handle in close combat... Obviously in big heated space battles this would be next to useless (unless you took a trip inside a Zentraedi crusier) but later in the series Valkyries are used extensively for urban warfare and pacification of the full-size Zents on Earth. Wouldn't something like a knife or baton, or pistol, be more effective for such operations? Certainly more controllable than a 55mm three-barrelled rotary cannon spewing out a thousand rounds a minute... Even as far as Mac+ and M7 where there's a good deal of city combat. You're trying to defend the place, not rip it to shreds...

Head lasers and other integral weaponry(where applicable) fill that role.

Less power, but incredibly small.

And being integral weapons, you don't have to worry about them being stolen, or discarding them to pick something else up like, say, the cockpit of a VT-1 totalled by your idiot friend while rescuing an equally stupid chinese girl.

[valkyrietestpilot]

the bayonet on the vf-11b was very practical & useful i thought. any type of bladed-beam weapon would have been laughed at by zentran adversaries

Edited May 2, 2004 by valkyrietestpilot

[Noyhauser]

Okay I've read over this and I wanted to make one point

Probably the main reason why VF-1 wouldn't have a Melee weapon is because it already has an effective short ranged weapon with unlimited ammo- its head lasers. It would also make more sense why the 1A could not effectively use its lasers shooting forward, while the J and S could. Cannon Fodder would not be expected to get close in and survive. Head lasers are probably more powerful than punching, and have a better traverse (especially in the J and S versions. Since the VF-11's head laser is far more limited than the VF-1's was, it would make sense that it could use a anti armor bayonet.

[Final Vegeta]

VF-1's radar is actually called "AWG-20 radar FCS", not Cyclops.

Out of sheer luck, I've found out the ultimate evidence:

The Truth

There is some katakanas, but I am sure at least you can read the letters in the F-14 box:

AN/AWG-9 radar FCS

Shin's F-14 had the same radar of the VF-0, just less advanced.

Mr March, I've won this fight

FV

Edited May 2, 2004 by Final Vegeta

[Final Vegeta]

I was under the understanding that only the Y/VF-19 and Y/Vf-21/22 have active stealth.

That was kinda my thought, but Macross Zero stated all Valkyries have always had active stealth from the beginning.

This would lead me to think that active stealth probably does not exist yet, and most probably cannot be detected regardless...

Probably there are more kinds of active stealth system, like one to reduce even IR signature.

Then again, I don't think active stealth was thought as a complex concept: the SV-51'AS had a stronger power output than that VF-0's. Quality of the device determines who is stealthier than who. That simple.

Another thought: active stealth perhaps may work even in Battroid. Or maybe ECA in Battroid is a substitute for active stealth in Fighter (they both require some power). If you are walking in a city radar should be blocked by buildings, so you don't need it, and the same for your enemy. Tanks don't have radar AFAIK.

I think for the Regults it was the same, on Earth they took ECA, in space they took AS, thus Roy' words about automatic tracking systems becoming useless now that he was fighting in space.

Is it me or Valhalla III looks like a Zentradi ship when in stealth mode?

Zentradi design = very stealthy.

FV

[Druna Skass]

Is it me or Valhalla III looks like a Zentradi ship when in stealth mode?

Zentradi design = very stealthy.

FV

Too angular, looks more Meltran to me...

[Mr March]

VF-1's radar is actually called "AWG-20 radar FCS", not Cyclops.

Out of sheer luck, I've found out the ultimate evidence:

The Truth

There is some katakanas, but I am sure at least you can read the letters in the F-14 box:

AN/AWG-9 radar FCS

Shin's F-14 had the same radar of the VF-0, just less advanced.

Mr March, I've won this fight

FV

Exactly, the VF-0 use a more advanced radar system, a cyclops enhanced fire control system. It certainly isn't declared non-cyclops. Remember, the humans of the Macross universe apply OverTechnology to current human understanding. Thus, they will build improved versions of exisiting technology with much great ability than convetional tech. The fact that the VF-0 detected the SV-51 and the F-14 could not, totally invalidates any arguement that the two radar suites are simply the same technology.

Also, on another point I want to clarify, I did not say the cyclops is designed to detect Valkyries...period. The cyclops is the next step for UN Spacy detection technology and it makes total sense for the VF-0, the Macross, and their personnel to be using them.

[JB0]

I was under the understanding that only the Y/VF-19 and Y/Vf-21/22 have active stealth.

That was kinda my thought, but Macross Zero stated all Valkyries have always had active stealth from the beginning.

Maybe Project Supernova introduced a next-gen active stealth system that was harder to defeat.

[Graham]

I'd still like to know exactly what a Cyclops radar is?

From D.D.'s use of it in Macross Zero episode # 3, it seems nothing more than a color thermal imaging system, which can see through a ship's bulkhead.

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

Umm, I wouldn't call the AWG-9 and AWG-20 different versions of the same radar. AWG is an ultra-generic term. Same as "F". The F-4 and F-22 are VERY different planes. Same for AWG-9 and AWG-20 radars.

AWG=Airborne Weapons Guidance. And like all things, it has been superceded by a new term, APG.

APG=Airborne Pulsed(radar) Guidance. See, "R" was already taken by "Radio" so they went with "P" for "Pulsed" since that's what type they are. (Surely you've heard the term "pulse-doppler" radar for the local weather reports)

PS--the upgraded AWG-9 is the APG-71, which is installed in the F-14D. Not suprised Shin doesn't have it, for he doesn't appear to have ANY of the F-14D's avionics enhancements.

Edited May 3, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Impreszive]

Wan't the Cyclops some sort of Cross Dimensional Radar? I guess it could see things in different spectrums, dunno really.