Original Macross Episode 3

[Penguin]

I searched the old threads but I couldn't find this discussed anywhere. I'd always taken it as a given that VF-1s can't reach orbit on their own. In episode 3, Roy (with Hikaru and Minmay) seems to be able to reach the Macross in orbit without a problem. Was this a goof, or can VF-1s reach orbit on their own after all? (Maybe just low orbit, and the atmospheric boosters are required to reach a higher orbit, like in episode 30... I'm just guessin' here...)

[RichterX]

I thought they got into the Macross before it left the atmosphere and then were trap in the folding

[Nightbat]

It could also be that a VF can reach space but has no fuel left to continue

so since macross was just above atmosphere, chances are they still could dock

but as was stated by others before:

Macross may have been high in altitude but might have not been out of the atmosphere yet

if you look in real life at how high the Lockheed blackbird flew, it was always night,

yet it was still in the atmosphere

[JELEINEN]

It shouldn't be too hard to find out if Valks can leave the atmosphere or not. Just compare their top speed with escape velocity. I'd do it myself, but I don't have time to look it up right now.

[Wes]

Well, they supposively used hydrogen in the atmosphere for their engines, and they needed tanks of it in space, so maybe that's the main thing with the boosters.

I though Roy hopped a ride on the Macross to get in space as well.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Hmm....the Macross was probably up in the stratosphere. But, aren't the boosters seen later on only for the Super VF-1s????

[Coota0]

I always assumed that the VF-1 could reach low to medium orbit, but not meduim to high orbit

[Skull Leader]

we debated this a while back. It was determined that the Macross was still within the stratosphere when Cmdr. Focker made it back. The VF-1 Valkyrie is NOT transatmospheric. Although I do not know for certain (actually, just conjecture on my part), I believe the VF-1X plus valkyries were only just barely able to reach orbit.

[Penguin]

As I understand escape velocity, it is the initial speed an object needs in order to completely escape Earth's (or any other body's) gravity, without the need for any additional force. For the Earth, this is about 25,000 mph. Since a VF-1's top speed is Mach 3.87 at 30 km and up, this isn't quite enough.

However, as I stated above, the key to escape velocity is "without the need for any additional force." If you can maintain a constant thrust greater than 1 g (i.e. the force of gravity), you will eventually leave Earth's gravity without ever having to reach escape velocity. To accomplish this, you need engines that can operate both inside and outside the atmosphere.

Alternatively, escape velocity could be much smaller when you start from a higher altitudes. So, it is possible that a VF-1 could catapult itself free of gravity if it started high enough - it all depends on how much the pull from gravity has diminished at that altitude. However, without the aforementioned air/space engines, you would be adrift.

So, I guess it all boils down to: Can a VF-1's engines switch from atmosphere-capable to space-capable "on the fly" (pun intended)? Or, as Nightbat wrote, was the Macross actually still within the stratosphere at the time?

Edit: And, as I complete the above "thesis", Skull Leader beats me to the punch with a simple answer. Thanks!

Edited April 24, 2004 by Penguin

[RichterX]

Yeah I have to check the episode again but I think while Macross was leaving the Atmosphere Roy, Hikaru and Minmey hop into the Macross.

Macross then had to return because of the space blockade, Hikaru left with Minmey in his acrobatic plane and were trap in the fold with the rest of South Ataria

[Coota0]

I got to thinking about this.

I think the VF-1 can make low Earth but needs refueling to break orbit.

Here's my reasoning:

1. We know the VF-1 has a heat shield so that it can make atmospheric reentry or exit.

2. It would be stupid to have a fighter that you can't recover without sending the Carrier into the atmosphere to pick up the fighters.

3. Sending the Carrier down to pick up the fighters would make it very vulnerable.

4. There's no reason there's couldn't be some sort of tanker to refuel the VF-1, we never see any landing craft or Search and Rescue ships's either.

I think when VF-1s are sent inot atmosphere and need to be retrieved in a hostile enviroment, tankers are used to refuel them once the VF-1s make low orbit and then the VF-1s continue on to a Mothership. The scene with the Valk booster is to get the VF-1s into a higer orbit on their own, without Tankers. In Ep. 3 I think Roy's VF-1 was still in the atmosphere when it boeded the SDF-1 because Roy never closed his heat shield, which would be needed in order to break atmosphere.

[VF-19]

Er... But your reasoning is slightly flawed. The heat sheild covers the cockpit, which is on top of the fighter. In proper re-entery mode, the cockpit would be the "least" (but still damn hot) exposed to the re-entry heat. Furthermore, why would you close the heat sheild over the cockpit if you were planning to exit the Earth's atmosphere?

I think heat sheild more refers to how the shield comes down to cover the cockpit in battroid mode, thereby taking the "heat" (ie bullets, beams etc) off of the pilot. Now granted, cannon fodders blow up very well, heat sheild extended or retracted...

[Coota0]

Er... But your reasoning is slightly flawed. The heat sheild covers the cockpit, which is on top of the fighter. In proper re-entery mode, the cockpit would be the "least" (but still damn hot) exposed to the re-entry heat. Furthermore, why would you close the heat sheild over the cockpit if you were planning to exit the Earth's atmosphere?

I think heat sheild more refers to how the shield comes down to cover the cockpit in battroid mode, thereby taking the "heat" (ie bullets, beams etc) off of the pilot. Now granted, cannon fodders blow up very well, heat sheild extended or retracted...

In one of the later episodes (I'll try to find it later) I be;ieve its the only one in the series in which we see Hiriku with FAST packs, he closes the heatshield as he enters the atmosphere to save Misa.

Besides you don't leave the heat shield closed, you only close it as you enter and exit the atmopshere and the heat builds up, you fly by instruments for those few minutes, once in space or in the atmosphere you open it back up.

[VF-19]

Er...  But your reasoning is slightly flawed.  The heat sheild covers the cockpit, which is on top of the fighter.  In proper re-entery mode, the cockpit would be the "least" (but still damn hot) exposed to the re-entry heat.  Furthermore, why would you close the heat sheild over the cockpit if you were planning to exit the Earth's atmosphere?

I think heat sheild more refers to how the shield comes down to cover the cockpit in battroid mode, thereby taking the "heat" (ie bullets, beams etc) off of the pilot.  Now granted, cannon fodders blow up very well, heat sheild extended or retracted...

In one of the later episodes (I'll try to find it later) I be;ieve its the only one in the series in which we see Hiriku with FAST packs, he closes the heatshield as he enters the atmosphere to save Misa.

Besides you don't leave the heat shield closed, you only close it as you enter and exit the atmopshere and the heat builds up, you fly by instruments for those few minutes, once in space or in the atmosphere you open it back up.

Don't worry too much about finding the ep. I've seen it too. It just doesn't make any sense. Now, if the canopy is directly exposed to the heat, then yes, the heat shield should be lowered to stop the heat from damaging the canopy. But the canopy is on the top of the airframe, and (YF-19 notwithstanding), thus would be automatically shielded from the heat because the nose of the VF-1 is directly under it.

Also, when leaving the atmosphere, I don't think fighters get supremely hot. Sure the SR-71 gets hot, but it's going at mach 3 for extended periods. The Space Shuttle is out of the atmosphere within 10-20 minutes after launch. And even then, it's not going "fast". It heats up on re-entry because of it's high mach number (well above mach 10, perhaps 20, I honestly don't know).

In addition, the SR-71 doesn't cover it's canopy to protect it from the heat of the flight, so I honestly don't see why the VF-1 must cover it's canopy during re-entry. The real problem of re-entry would be to dissapate that heat on the underside of the fighter, and underneath the pilot.

[Lezt]

you do not actually need to have escape velocity to get out into hte atmosphere if u are not in rocket launch mode. and mach speed is not a good tell as it does not state the attitude, u know that mach is unitless rite?

[VF-19]

you do not actually need to have escape velocity to get out into hte atmosphere if u are not in rocket launch mode. and mach speed is not a good tell as it does not state the attitude, u know that mach is unitless rite?

Er.... Mach is unitless? Mach 1 equals a specific speed at sea level, which happens to be the speed of sound at sea level. Depending on teperature, the speed of sound at sea level is about 776 miles per hour. This changes as you change altitude, so Mach 1 at 60000 feet is different than Mach 1 at 0 feet.

Also, concerning the matter of escape velocity, you simply must have more energy than gravity. Here's one website for that: Escape Velocity

The reason why jets can't leave the atmosphere is because they require air (duh!), and currently, you need a rocket to supply enough thrust long enough to leave Earth. To lift a Jet into space requires much less thrust than a space shuttle.

[Lezt]

you do not actually need to have escape velocity to get out into hte atmosphere if u are not in rocket launch mode. and mach speed is not a good tell as it does not state the attitude, u know that mach is unitless rite?

Er.... Mach is unitless? Mach 1 equals a specific speed at sea level, which happens to be the speed of sound at sea level. Depending on teperature, the speed of sound at sea level is about 776 miles per hour. This changes as you change altitude, so Mach 1 at 60000 feet is different than Mach 1 at 0 feet.

Also, concerning the matter of escape velocity, you simply must have more energy than gravity. Here's one website for that: Escape Velocity

The reason why jets can't leave the atmosphere is because they require air (duh!), and currently, you need a rocket to supply enough thrust long enough to leave Earth. To lift a Jet into space requires much less thrust than a space shuttle.

that is where i come in, remmeber GMm/r? ( i am going to be an engineer by the way) if u luanch an aircraft form a high place; for my case of saying that u dun nescessary need that 11km/sec to get out of earth; i will chose first everest.

hieght of everest = 8850m

radius of earth = 6378136 m

Grav constant(top of my head) = 6.67259E-11

M earth = 6E24 kg

m = canceled

(1/2)mv^2 = GMm/®

for surface of earth

v = 11204m/s

if R = Rearth + Reverst

v = 11196.69m/s

if R = (Rearth + RSr71(assume 20km)

v = 11186.93m/s

now applying to aero space, we should check the fundemental methold which the constant escape velocity is calculated from. it is a energy type calculation thus it assumes that no energy will enter the system once the system is set in motion (just like a bullet out of a gun, once the bullet is out of the barrel nothing is pushing it cept the restive air flow). but a rocket is constantly supplying energy along the process. and also when fuel is burnt the m of the rocket~ decreases so therefore it is capable of reaching space without going 11km/sec iirc the space shuttle and apollo series do not even reach that speed untill the very end of the launch. and that is only because they are in space.

and mach num iirc is a ratio aka without a unit. (m/s)/(m/s) = 1

[Coota0]

Er... But your reasoning is slightly flawed. The heat sheild covers the cockpit, which is on top of the fighter. In proper re-entery mode, the cockpit would be the "least" (but still damn hot) exposed to the re-entry heat. Furthermore, why would you close the heat sheild over the cockpit if you were planning to exit the Earth's atmosphere?

I think heat sheild more refers to how the shield comes down to cover the cockpit in battroid mode, thereby taking the "heat" (ie bullets, beams etc) off of the pilot. Now granted, cannon fodders blow up very well, heat sheild extended or retracted...

SOooooooooooo....Are you completley disagreeing with me, or just on the heat shield?

Because if it's just the heats shield, I went off of what I saw in the series, I have no clue on the actual science to back it up (well at least not past a basice college physics class)

[VF-19]

Er...  But your reasoning is slightly flawed.  The heat sheild covers the cockpit, which is on top of the fighter.  In proper re-entery mode, the cockpit would be the "least" (but still damn hot) exposed to the re-entry heat.  Furthermore, why would you close the heat sheild over the cockpit if you were planning to exit the Earth's atmosphere?

I think heat sheild more refers to how the shield comes down to cover the cockpit in battroid mode, thereby taking the "heat" (ie bullets, beams etc) off of the pilot.  Now granted, cannon fodders blow up very well, heat sheild extended or retracted...

SOooooooooooo....Are you completley disagreeing with me, or just on the heat shield?

Because if it's just the heats shield, I went off of what I saw in the series, I have no clue on the actual science to back it up (well at least not past a basice college physics class)

Just on the heat shield. I agree that you need a lot of energy (proportional to the mass of an object), and that currently, the only way you can properly re-enter the atmosphere is the long, and rather dangerous, re-entry process.

[Hurin]

My understanding is that a heatshield on spacecraft is only needed for re-entry into the atmosphere. Please note that the U.S. space shuttle has its black heat shield tiles on its belly, as that is the surface that is making primary contact with the atmosphere during re-entry. There is heat shielding all over the shuttle, but it is thickest on the belly.

But. . . I don't know why this is so. Can anyone explain why re-entry is so much "hotter" than flying at the same speed when you're already in the atmosphere?

As for why we call the canopy cover on a valkryie the "heatshield". . . I just assumed that's because Hikaru closes it over the canopy during re-entry during "Love Drifts Away". . . I know that Rick Hunter calls it a "heatshield" by name in RT, but I don't recall if Hikaru does in SDF-Macross.

As for a valkryie being transatmospheric. . . during the episode where they capture the factory satellite, they clearly use some (non-FAST Pack) booster unit to attain orbit. That doesn't necessarily mean that the booster units were required to reach orbit. . . but I think it strongly suggests it!

H

Edited April 27, 2004 by Hurin

[Phyrox]

But. . . I don't know why this is so. Can anyone explain why re-entry is so much "hotter" than flying at the same speed when you're already in the atmosphere?

I am not that well versed in trans-atmospheric travel, but this is how I understand it:

Re-entry isn't at the same speed that it (or much else) travels is the atmosphere.

During lauch, the shuttle accelerates gradually, not reaching its highest speed until it has already passed beyond the atmosphere. In re-entry, although not travelling as fast as normal orbit, the shuttle is moving at around 15,000 mph...which is faster than it moves in the atmosphere during launch.

I haven't read up on this but like I said, this is how I have always understood it.

[Hurin]

I am not that well versed in trans-atmospheric travel, but this is how I understand it:

Re-entry isn't at the same speed that it (or much else) travels is the atmosphere.

During lauch, the shuttle accelerates gradually, not reaching its highest speed until it has already passed beyond the atmosphere. In re-entry, although not travelling as fast as normal orbit, the shuttle is moving at around 15,000 mph...which is faster than it moves in the atmosphere during launch.

I haven't read up on this but like I said, this is how I have always understood it.

That would make sense. . . thanks.

Thinking about your response, another way to put it would be that, during launch, the air is getting thinner and thinner as the speed increases. Whereas, during re-entry, speed is at maximum as contact is made with the atmosphere. Sure, the atmosphere will introduce drag and slow things down a bit. . . but I think, as Phyrox said, that a spacecraft is going much faster on re-entry for its given altitude than it was on the way up.

H

[VF-19]

Edit: nevermind... I failed to see the page 2 on this topic... Stupid me...

Edited April 28, 2004 by VF-19