Ghost in the Shell: Innocence

[bsu legato]

Aint It Cool News has links to a full scene that's available to download. The animation is just awe-inspiring.

[Kiotcloudkicker]

Yay!!! I saw the trailer on Cartoon Network last night!!! Can't wait to go see it in the theaters.

[fernarias]

GITS:I was boring, story wise. The first hour put me to sleep. The visuals were good but it didn't save the movie.

I don't think this movie can be compared with Akira, it's not even in the same league. Akira was a full length feature movie. GITS:I is a 90 min tv episode for the big screen.

F.

[eriku]

GITS:I was boring, story wise. The first hour put me to sleep. The visuals were good but it didn't save the movie.

I don't think this movie can be compared with Akira, it's not even in the same league. Akira was a full length feature movie. GITS:I is a 90 min tv episode for the big screen.

F.

I'm going to see it in a couple hours. Glad to hear it's not comparible to Akira, I've never really liked that film. The soundtrack is fantastic though.

[Mallet21]

Just saw it... the animation was incredible. I got sort of lost story wise. I never thought I would admit this but I almost wish it was dubbed and not subtitled. I became so engrossed w/ the animation that I missed some of the dialogue.

I highly recommend it ..... Batou is the man

[wolfx]

Saw the fansub.....wasn't subbed too well as some stuff were left out.

Very stunning visuals. But it was so unnatural to the point that it as trying to be very ....urmm.....philosophical? It didn't feel very human. Its like every other time the characters were speaking, they were talking like professors of theology or something.

I was expecting it to dwell on Batou's thoughts of being a cyborg and how he missed his "humanity" but instead it was a head trip about what's right and what's wrong, and the usual recurring theme of ethics of giving robots sentience.

SPOILER!

btw, I didn't get why they were Ghost-dubbing the Geisha-bots. Was it supposed to be a short-cut programming method or make them be more life-like?

[Angel's Fury]

Interesting..... so when can I expect this to go on DVD?

[Seven]

Very stunning visuals. But it was so unnatural to the point that it as trying to be very ....urmm.....philosophical? It didn't feel very human. Its like every other time the characters were speaking, they were talking like professors of theology or something.

I was expecting it to dwell on Batou's thoughts of being a cyborg and how he missed his "humanity" but instead it was a head trip about what's right and what's wrong, and the usual recurring theme of ethics of giving robots sentience.

Yeah, that's a Oshii trademark. The guy just loves to ramble philosphical on all sorts of topics. In Patlabor II it was about the nature of war and modern Japan's relationship to war, and in GITS it was about the nature of humanity and one's soul or ghost. Sheesh, he even does it in the 2nd Urusei Yatsura movie: Beautiful Dreamer! He injected this sort of philosophical plot about the nature of dreams into a comedy about space aliens for crissakes!

He also has to put his basset hound in every movie he makes too. He's got grandiose ideas, but damn, he should just leave the philosophy to the professionals...

[bandit29]

Saw it today in the theaters. Eh ok. It tries to be too many things. Sometimes its an action flick. Other times it just some philosiphical nonsense. And then it turns into a psychological thriller of sorts.

The animation is great but its bogged down by constant philosphical dialog between the characters. If you ask me, Mamoru Oshii takes himself way too seriously. Its almost laughable.

Oh and if any of you thought the first GITS movie was boring, don't even bother with this one. The pacing in this movie is awful. There are some really just down right boring parts in this film.

Edited September 19, 2004 by dejr8bud

[GobotFool]

I suppose I'lll be the sole dissenting voice. I love Oshii, and I love Ghost in the Shell. Unfortunately, the first GitS movie by Oshii fell far short of both the original GitS manga and Oshii's other movie work.

For one thing, the original GitS movie managed to strip any and all personality from each and every one of the characters. Beyond that, the very heart of the story was also removed, and we were left with shallow, meaningless pseudo-philosphical BS for dialogue.

Actually, I'm not a big fan of the first film either, for precisely the same reasons you mention. However, Production IG looks like they're doing their usual world class job in terms of animation, which is my main drawing point for this film.

Same sentiment here: I'm rather fond of the GitS movie for its technical performances than for its story depth and/or faithfullness to the original manga

While I will admit that the GitS movie is technically impressive, I can't really appreciate that much because of how the movie was hyped. In the movie's own hype they compare it to Akira, but if you really do compare the animation in both movies GitS isn't even in the same league, by far. Now I can't watch the movie without that comparison in my head.

wow, completely disagree.. GitS does stuff that you would even dream of back in the day Akira was made... the CGI and hand drawn stuff is seemless, and the mood and pacing are just incredible.

while akira is amazing considering when it was made, the character animation, fluidity of movement just doesn't stack up.

GitS is the first japanese animation where I looked at the character animation done and thought that it was on par or better than anything disney has ever put out... even when they were just rotoscoping stuff.

I'm speaking as an animation student, while I'm reluctant to say that makes my opinion more qualified, I learned a lot at art school about what makes good animation, what to look for. I'm speaking on technical aspects alone here, objectively as possible.

Gui really covered about all I could say on the matter. I would also reccomend checking out 'Wings of Honneamise' aka 'The Royal Space Force', and the first two Patlabor movies. Wings, at least, I would also rank much higher in the animation department than GitS, for many of the same reasons. The Patlabor movies I would rank at least about on par with GitS.

I will also admit I'm rather critical of CG. I don't hate well done CG, but I've seen plenty of absolutely terrible CG that has wowed audiences the world over. In the American trailer for Innocence they even feature some shots of just such CG that really stands out (in a bad way) compared to the otherwise well done visuals. I wonder if that says something about the American view of CG, when you realize the Japanese trailer avoided such shots.

while on the topic of quality animation, has anyone seen Wonderful Days? What did you think of that movies mixing of CG, cell and physical models? On a purely technical level what did you think?

[eugimon]

just saw innocence...

and...

oshii never tries to hide the CG.. it's just there. and it's used to great effect.

and I'm sorry, but the camera angles, the panning shots, the character animation is simply top notch.

I can see how traditional animation guys may say that Oshii's stuff doesn't measure up to wings or akira... level of detail, stuff like that...

but... oshii, IMO, convey's WAY more emotion with light, camera angles and facial gestures... and in a much more realistic way than in Akira or Wings or whatever else.

this movie totally blurs the line, in terms of cinematography, between animation and live action.

[Pat S]

It reminded me a lot of Patlabor2 which has already been mentioned. I thought it looked amazing, but feel that the story, while interesting, was probably more worthy of being an episode of Stand Alone Complex, rather than an entire movie. Still, very enjoyable, and I liked the focus on Batou's home life.

[wolfx]

Yeah, that's a Oshii trademark. The guy just loves to ramble philosphical on all sorts of topics. In Patlabor II it was about the nature of war and modern Japan's relationship to war, and in GITS it was about the nature of humanity and one's soul or ghost. Sheesh, he even does it in the 2nd Urusei Yatsura movie: Beautiful Dreamer! He injected this sort of philosophical plot about the nature of dreams into a comedy about space aliens for crissakes!

He also has to put his basset hound in every movie he makes too. He's got grandiose ideas, but damn, he should just leave the philosophy to the professionals...

I like philosophy as much as the next guy, but really now, oshii's depiction of GITS is way off what I think Shirow has in mind. Shirow's characters were never "dark" and angsty. They were light hearted, in your face characters. Oshii's GITS, characters are like philosophical professors masquerading as policemen....it felt almost laughable that every interaction between characters has some kinda quote from some piece of literature or other.

Well anyway, 3 SPOILER QUESTIONS i'd like to ask.

1.) Of course, what is the ghost dubbing supposed to do? Is it a short-cut programming for the geisha bots to implant "ghosts" in them?

2.) Batou's right arm, was it real in the movie? They mentioned that they changed it to a new one, but i'm not sure if the "old" one was cybernetic or not.

3.) When the geisha bots started attacking in the ship, were they acting as the ship's security guards or were they being infected by something else? Cause they attacked the ship's guards. I got kinda confused at the triumvirate cantonese speaking robots. Were they getting hacked by someone else other than Togusa?

[Pat S]

My spoiler answers...

1. It was to make the geisha dolls more lifelike, and a hot seller.

2. I understood them to mean it was fake, but then again, I think I saw blood. Though, why'd he want to see it then?

3. Security. They were dubbed there, and the ship captains or whatever they were, used them for defense. Just Togusa hacking as far as I could tell. Pretty good hacker for a guy who hates technology. Maybe if they had the AI Tachikoma's helping, I could understand. It did appear that 10 years had passed between GITS movie 1 and 2. (I missed the opening, so I'm not sure if a date was mentioned). The characters seemed older, so maybe Togusa got with the program so to speak, though it's hard to believe the characters could survive 10 years in their jobs considering all the danger they get themselves into.

Edited September 19, 2004 by Pat S

[bandit29]

it felt almost laughable that every interaction between characters has some kinda quote from some piece of literature or other.

Ya I felt the same way. I was waiting for "Batou, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make any sound"?

Most of the dialog in this movie is asnine. Every other line seemed like it was in quotes.

[Majestic]

Saw it yesterday, thought it was great.

How does Stand Alone Complex and 2nd Gig fit in? Does all that take place before GITS1, when the Major "becomes part of the net"?

[bsu legato]

How does Stand Alone Complex and 2nd Gig fit in? Does all that take place before GITS1, when the Major "becomes part of the net"?

Alternate Universe, essentially. The manga(s) tv series and the movies are all related in name only.

[Majestic]

Ah, how could I forget the old "timeline/continuity out-the-window" method common for anime series.

Drives us westerners crazy, but I guess it's a flexibility we don't have.

[wolfx]

Ah, how could I forget the old "timeline/continuity out-the-window" method common for anime series.

Drives us westerners crazy, but I guess it's a flexibility we don't have.

To make life easier for you, there currently are 3 universes.

Movie timelines:

Innocense takes place after GITS 1. The movie versions do not have Tachi/Fuchikomas, and some members of Section 9. The cast seem to be philosophers.

Manga Timelines:

There's the original GITS and then GITS 2: Man Machine Interface, where Motoko is an Internet God and has control of various cyborg bodies. The cast are lighthearted and very comic-like.

SOC Series Timelines:

Stays truer to the manga, but its a standalone series. All in a day's work for section 9 basically. Cast are professional and serious about their work, but they do have their fun.

[EXO]

Heh... don't even expect continuity from Shirow in the same series. GITS and GITS2:MMI are mildly connected. Dominion is completey fragmented and if he ever goes back to Appleseed, I doubt it'll be where he left off.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I enjoyed it a lot. While I typically hate CGI in animation, I let it slide if it appears justified. I'd say this was that case. Not all of it blended, but it did add an other-worldly sense to things. At time it looked too real, as if I were watching Roger Rabbit. Still, it's nice to see CG put to use, rather than just being there(especially in cel-shaded form), like Gonzo tends to do. I'm still more impressed by hard art like in DYRL? than anything a computer can do though. I'll admit to being biased towards the works of Oshii, but I thought this was really well done.

[aaajin]

SAW it~! enjoyed it~! as an overall, watching this film makes me feel as if I'm attending somekind of a philosophical class....really makes me think of what's gonna happen in the future....how's things gonna be...how the human will react if robots slowly gain consciousness to be a part of this world, a part of the society we live in...will we accept them as our counterpart?

just my pathetic 2 cents

aaajin

[Radd]

Ah, how could I forget the old "timeline/continuity out-the-window" method common for anime series.

Drives us westerners crazy, but I guess it's a flexibility we don't have.

You're joking, right? If not I'd just like to point out "us westerners" do it every bit as much as your average anime/manga franchise.

Tell me where the X-Men movies fit into the comic books? How about each of the X-men tv series? For that matter, nearly every mainstream comic book on the stands lacks anything but the most laughable concept of continuity.

That's just one example.

As for GitS2? I saw it and I must say it exceeded my expectations. It's still not as good as Shirow's original Manga, but I found it to be an enjoyable movie. The philisophical dialogue wasn't nearly as asinine and deliberately vague as to hide the fact that it lacked any substance. The "plot" of the movie (one of the subplots in the original GitS manga reused and dumbed down) was deliberately kept in the backseat, with the themes ofthe movie acting as the true ride.

The characters, while still lacking as much personality of their manga counterparts, weren't so dull and lifeless as in the previous GitS movie. They seemed to retain some of their quirks and personality traits, though much more sombre. The actual plot of the movie seemed to be less of a direct sequel to the original GitS movie, but rather seemed to pick and choose elements from the previous movie, the manga, the sequel to the manga (what little I know about it, I really want to pick that up), and SAC.

I still disagree with eugimon on several things. The characters still, for the most part, are well drawn still frames, with relatively little animation. When there is animation, it is top notch, but there are lots of still frames, oftentimes without even any mouth animation (I know that carrying on conversations mentally over radio communication is a staple of the GitS universe, but at least toss in some animation if you don't have to animate the mouths. Some hair blowing in the wind, a little more animated facial expressions, something!) However, while the characters are in those still frames, lighting effects are often tossed over them to put some motion on the screen, and it works to good effect, though I'd still take well done animation over cheating techniques like that.

There is some good CG in the movie, too. Some downright excellent CG that really impressed me. Conversely, there was some pretty piss-poor CG in some scenes. I'm not so biased towards 2D that I cannot appreciate well done CG, it's just that I won't accept poorly done CG like it seems so many people are willing to.

While still not as well animated as some classics like Akira and Wings of Honneamise, it still ranks highly with it's visuals.

A word on the manga personalities to the cast, I see a lot of people here claiming that the cast was all comedy, all the time. I think those sentiments are overcompensating for the overly somber and serious portrayals Oshii has given us. The manga characters often went from comical to serious, wichever mood was most approrpriate for the scene in question. GitS was a serious book overall, and also very philisophical, though it's stories were better written and it's philosphy well thought out with lots of elements to back it up. The graphic novel had an entire section in the back detailing both the philosophies and technology of the book, and I believe there were even a couple essays written by Shirow.

[jwinges]

if i see it in a theater will it be subbed or dubbed?

[bandit29]

if i see it in a theater will it be subbed or dubbed?

Subbed. I don't think a dub has been done yet. Its pretty easy to follow. The plot is nothing to complicated or original. You might become nauseated with some of the dialog. That seems to be the biggest complaint so far from people who have seen it (myself included).

The action scenes with Batou are really well done. Probably the only reason I'll pick up the DVD.

[Radd]

I heard it was a toss up as to what theatres would get the dub, and wich would get the sub. I don't know if that's true or not, my theatre got the subtitled version. This was a very pleasant surprise.

[Batou]

Heh. I thought my ears were burning.

I saw it at the local university theater on sunday (small screen, hard seats, lackluster sound, paid parking, yada yada) ... I'm very glad to say I saw the subbed version. I have to say I was absolutely amazed by it. More so than anything I've seen in quite a while. The animation quality was just breathtaking, and I think the storyline flowed much better than the original.

Someone mentioned a fansub floating out there ... can anyone point out where to look? I don't particularly feel like waiting for the DVD to catch this one again.

Also, does anyone have any idea who's going to get the US release rights?

Edited September 22, 2004 by Batou

[Panon]

Everybody is seeing the subbed version because a dub doesn't exist. It's being released in the US by Go Fish Productions, a division of Dreamworks.

Avoid the fansub and just wait for the dvd, for your own sake. Among other things, it's very poorly done. Badly translated, missing entire lines of dialogue at times and to add insult to injury, theres a 15 minute person where the timing is off on the subtitles and is about 2 second behind what's actually being said.

[Yang_Neumann]

I heard it was a toss up as to what theatres would get the dub, and wich would get the sub. I don't know if that's true or not, my theatre got the subtitled version. This was a very pleasant surprise.

You mean DW/GF actually have a dubbed version?

[orguss01]

jUst saw it thursday night...fantastic visuals, i sat closer than usual (on purpose)and got totally imersed in all that is good Shirow...

The parade scene wow!! I thought i was in Blade Runner!!!!!

Oh for all the Socal massive it is playing in Brea...Nice sound system..

Subbed, not dubbed......

Edited September 26, 2004 by orguss01

[F360°]

I check it out.. a week ago.. the visual is the best I have seen in anime, smooth blend all around, but the story on the other hand is not too intresting for me.. I mean, I didn't really care for any of the charactors,, they need to show more of the "Major". and Of course more of the ta ta tatatatat, bomm boommb bombombmm.. ka aka bomm.. well you know what I'm talking about..

This is not for the average

Edited September 27, 2004 by F360°

[Wesker99]

I just saw it today. I loved it. Mainly the visuals. They were amazing. IMO it's definatly on par with Akira and the likes. Is there any word on if and when they're going to release this on DVD / VHS?

SPOILERS:

I thoroughly enjoyed all the hacking of "cyber brains." It didn't make sense to me when it was actually happening, but when they explained it later on I was like, "Wow, that's sweet!".. Hehe, I dunno, I just liked that little bit of the movie a lot, it was avery cool plot device IMO.

[Hikuro]

It's not showing up in Oregon theaters till sometime in mid october I think....maybe than I'll catch it......than again.......I can just wait till its released in the next year or so......wha ever

Okay I just checked around...I found...3 variations....two are DVD rips and the other is not...2 are by an unknown group while the other belong too well somebody else. The DVD rips are a gig and a half while the other is 700 megs.....which could be the bad one?

Edited September 27, 2004 by Hikuro

[Panon]

It's not showing up in Oregon theaters till sometime in mid october I think....maybe than I'll catch it......than again.......I can just wait till its released in the next year or so......wha ever

Okay I just checked around...I found...3 variations....two are DVD rips and the other is not...2 are by an unknown group while the other belong too well somebody else.  The DVD rips are a gig and a half while the other is 700 megs.....which could be the bad one?

At this point, all of them.

One of the 1gb+ rips and the 700mb one don't have English subtitles, so unless you just want to take in the visuals they're not of a lot of use. The other 1gb+ rip has English subtitles.. but they are terrible.

By terrible, I mean worse than what Animejunkies used to dump out. The subs are often very wrong, there are entire portions that have been left unsubbed, and theres a stretch of about 15-20 minutes where the subtitles are mistimed and don't match up properly with the dialogue.

[Hikuro]

I couldn't watch it anyways, the torrent site is sorta a bitch.