Orguss TV series

[jwinges]

Ok I sat through the hole dang thing. Good story but the subtitles gave it a Cheezy factor of 10. After disk 1 the names changed almost every episode. They were calling Memogy Jimmy at one point. And Altina turned into Argentina. Figure that out.

Anyway what's up with the ending. Do the worlds jsut split and everybody get to be with the one they loved in their respective worlds? Who won the gunfight. The guns go off but nobody drops. WTF

[Graham]

Very hokey ending. I'm also not sure what actually happened.

And I completely agree about the subs. The name change thing just got crazy. IIRC there were some episodes where the names changed several times within one episode.

I'd love to buy a remastered Orguss set with decent subs.....AnimEigo are you listening?

Graham

[Myriad]

It does have a good WTF! ending. The bad subtitles don't help much to clear things up. I guess you have to some up your own opinion.......

In my opinion, things will always be screwed up to a certain point since Mimsy is pregnant. That baby and its offspring do not belong in either world their ancestors are from. Orguss 2 does not really solve the problem either. Same problem that can't be fixed. Then again, Orguss 2 does not exist to some.....

Here is somebody elses opinion on the end and and on the rest of the episodes.

http://anduin.eldar.org/~brad/anime/orguss...sode_index.html

Maybe Keith will post his opinion on what happened. He has a very different opinion then mine.

[Keith]

Maybe I will....maybe I will.

In the last episode, Kei & Orsen used the time travel device that the Chilam developed (you'll recall the episode where they half traveled back in time while the machine was still in developement), to travel back to the point just before Kei screwed with the dimensional bomb & set it off, and shot their younger selves. In turn, their younger selves shot them, leaving both sets of Kei's & Orsen's dead.

The result of this being that the dimensional distrubance never occurred, and everyone (except for Kei & Orsen) would live out their lives as they would normally have. At this point we also see what I personally think is Kei's flashing on the life he wanted to have.

Awesome ending irregardless.

[jwinges]

Now I get it. When its explained like that it makes sense to me. Cool. Maybe I'll have to watch Orguss 2 if I can rent it somewhere. Thanks

[Boxer]

The subtitles were an atrocity to anime.

It's MIMSY!!! And since when do we call the Mu the 'Tammy?'

The thing with dimensional mishaps is that anything can happen if at one point or another a decision could be made to make that thing happen. So in some weird parallel dimention we may co exist with the Emaan (That would be cool!) or we would be bulldozed by the Mu.

Did anyone see the Arcadia in the last eps?

As for Orguss 2...meh. I'd only watch the last episode just to see how it tied into the origional Orguss. I also hear that we only get a glimpse of the 'Orguss 2' in the whole OVA.

/Oscillation

[Keith]

No, there isn't the possability for an infinate number of things to happen. It was explicitely explained during the series, only a few dimensions were caught in the anomoly (Chilam, Eiman, dragon/dinosaur, etc), it was a very localized mishap. As such, the only outcome of the situation was the one seen.

As for Orguss 02, I wouldn't waste time with it, much like Macross II & Megazone 23 Prt II it vastly contradicts everything that came before it, leaving you wondering why they even bothered to make it. In the specific case of Orguss 02, they claim that a second dimensional bomb was set off to correct the effects of the first, but still leaving some mishaps leftover. In the actual Orguss ending, no second bomb is set off, and Kei & Orsen travel back in time. This is but "1" bizarre chocie made in the Orguss 02 production.

[Boxer]

If you include precise timing in dimensional oscillation then yes, infinite dimentions are possible. Something you do could differ by seconds in each dimension, like shooting a gun. You could wait one second before pulling the trigger and *Bang* another universe (No pun intended ) Even silly things like getting up in the morning or lifting a finger create essentially the same dimention except where you waited only one second to lift a finger.

This sort of dimensional oscillation goes on all the time in your life without even thinking about it.

Now take this figure and multiply it by all the people in the world . Now you say that isn't infinant, but take into consideration the combination of people and events happening in the world (Such as the evolution of the Emaan on Earth... or the group development of the Mu) into your equation. Also add to the fact that even though you may not fire a gun that millisecond, someone else would and thereby cause another four oscillations (You fire a gun, you both fire a gun, he fires a gun, neither of you fires a gun). That's just between two people. Try the population of the world.

Then add all the things and events in the entire known realm of existance that we don't even know about, their possibilities, and the minute dimensional additions second to second.

See? Endless. Or nearly, but the number would be astronomical in the smallest known span of time (even smaller than a microsecond).

Edit: In reguards to Keith's 'Limited universes'- my point is you don't need all of those multiple universes for something like that to happen. One universe alone can span an infinant amount of universes

My take on the Oscillation of dimensions in Orguss is that in the expanding universe of dimensions the Oscillation bomb only interrupted those in a radius of time around the detonation, meaning it only affected universes that have changed fairly recently in earth's history or the change wasn't that great. This would explain why all the Earths brought into Kei's world are habitable worlds much like Earth and not toxic or airless earths. It would also explain why the Emaan (Close to human) and our parallel opposites in the Mu's world were also human, while we don't have floating heads or stranger aliens for human inhabitants. I think the strangest we see in Orguss is Jabby, and I think that problem is solved by preventing thier extinction from happening for a few hundred millenia.

....I think I get it. Somewhere in there is my explaination

Edited April 9, 2004 by Boxer

[MSW]

there is no point in argueeing with Keith ... he is ALWAYS correct in his own limited universe

Kei doesn't show up for something like 20 years AFTER the space-time bomb detonated...at that point in time Mimsy is soon to turn 18...even if the Emaan age 1 year for every 4 human years...Mimsy would have been like 12 when the bomb detonated (else if she aged at the same rate, she wouldn't have even been born yet!)...however at the end of the show, when she is returned to her world, she is still the exact same age And so everything supposedly returns to normal

If Kei and Olsen were TRULEY successful in stopping the space-time bomb from detonateing, then there would NOT be a Orguss TV series to even discuss

[Boxer]

But then, how do you explain a universe where nothing changed? There's one for that too

Actually I'd imagine that after the resolution of the oscillation bomb it recounts that all events are possible anywhere within the time specified, hence Mimsy AND Kei are together in one universe (1rst one: Notice Mimsy is Human in that one.) While he's with Tina in another universe. There's probably also a universe where Mimsy and Athena return to Earth, but Kei and Olsen never return (I think this is the one where Jabby is looking at the baby...) There's probably also a universe out there where Kei is an Emaan.

I just love being a writer

Oh, right, Keith is correct....in his own universe j/k

[Keith]

there is no point in argueeing with Keith ... he is ALWAYS correct in his own limited universe

Kei doesn't show up for something like 20 years AFTER the space-time bomb detonated...at that point in time Mimsy is soon to turn 18...even if the Emaan age 1 year for every 4 human years...Mimsy would have been like 12 when the bomb detonated (else if she aged at the same rate, she wouldn't have even been born yet!)...however at the end of the show, when she is returned to her world, she is still the exact same age And so everything supposedly returns to normal

If Kei and Olsen were TRULEY successful in stopping the space-time bomb from detonateing, then there would NOT be a Orguss TV series to even discuss

And what would be the point in showing Mimsy in the time relative to that which Kei traveled back to (or if you prefer, originated from?), none! Argue all you want, but the fact remains it was specifically explained in Orguss that only a handful of Universes were intertwined (not infinate possabilities), that it was isolated entirely to the Earth, and that Kei & Orsen did indeed travel back in time to kill their younger selves (they didn't detonate another dimensioanl bomb to blow the universes apart).

There is afterall only "1" Orguss TV series, with "1" ending.

[MSW]

And what would be the point in showing Mimsy in the time relative to that which Kei traveled back to (or if you prefer, originated from?), none! Argue all you want, but the fact remains it was specifically explained in Orguss that only a handful of Universes were intertwined (not infinate possabilities), that it was isolated entirely to the Earth, and that Kei & Orsen did indeed travel back in time to kill their younger selves (they didn't detonate another dimensioanl bomb to blow the universes apart).

There is afterall only "1" Orguss TV series, with "1" ending.

I'll try to make this as simple as possable...just focusing on the Emaan universe, but it will still fly right over your head ...

Scenario 1: Emaan universe exists, Mimsy exists, the space-time bomb never detonates and thus nothing is effected in this universe...Mimsy and some male Emaan get together and she has a child, grows old and dies...this is the "normal" timeline

Scenario 2: again Emaan universe exists, as does Mimsy...but the space-time bomb goes boom...Mimsy gets sucked to other universe...life continues on...the would be father to Mimsy's child in Scenario 1 doesn't get transported to another universe and so he hooks up with some other woman..and they have a child

Scenario 3: same as scenario 2, but Mimsy returns pregnant with Kei's child...Male whom was left behind has child with other woman

Each scenario results in a completely different set of children... things can't return to the normal timeline if the bomb goes off, and if the bomb never detonates, there would be no TV series ... end of story!

[Keith]

And what would be the point in showing Mimsy in the time relative to that which Kei traveled back to (or if you prefer, originated from?), none! Argue all you want, but the fact remains it was specifically explained in Orguss that only a handful of Universes were intertwined (not infinate possabilities), that it was isolated entirely to the Earth, and that Kei & Orsen did indeed travel back in time to kill their younger selves (they didn't detonate another dimensioanl bomb to blow the universes apart).

There is afterall only "1" Orguss TV series, with "1" ending.

I'll try to make this as simple as possable...just focusing on the Emaan universe, but it will still fly right over your head ...

Scenario 1: Emaan universe exists, Mimsy exists, the space-time bomb never detonates and thus nothing is effected in this universe...Mimsy and some male Emaan get together and she has a child, grows old and dies...this is the "normal" timeline

Scenario 2: again Emaan universe exists, as does Mimsy...but the space-time bomb goes boom...Mimsy gets sucked to other universe...life continues on...the would be father to Mimsy's child in Scenario 1 doesn't get transported to another universe and so he hooks up with some other woman..and they have a child

Scenario 3: same as scenario 2, but Mimsy returns pregnant with Kei's child...Male whom was left behind has child with other woman

Each scenario results in a completely different set of children... things can't return to the normal timeline if the bomb goes off, and if the bomb never detonates, there would be no TV series ... end of story!

Don't give me your tv sci-fi "if you go back in time & make something never happen, then it will happen all over again in an endless loop" crap!

As shown, Kei & Orsen "did" fix things by traveling back in time, there's no reason to believe that it would result in them never traveling back in time for the original events to loop all over again, and obviously Mimsy wouldn't have Kei's child once events were corrected.

[MSW]

Don't give me your tv sci-fi "if you go back in time & make something never happen, then it will happen all over again in an endless loop" crap!

As shown, Kei & Orsen "did" fix things by traveling back in time, there's no reason to believe that it would result in them never traveling back in time for the original events to loop all over again, and obviously Mimsy wouldn't have Kei's child once events were corrected.

:yawn: yeap...that went right over your head

[Keith]

Don't give me your tv sci-fi "if you go back in time & make something never happen, then it will happen all over again in an endless loop" crap!

As shown, Kei & Orsen "did" fix things by traveling back in time, there's no reason to believe that it would result in them never traveling back in time for the original events to loop all over again, and obviously Mimsy wouldn't have Kei's child once events were corrected.

:yawn: yeap...that went right over your head

Cut the B.S., and at least make some effort in paying attention to a show when you're trying to argue a point about it.

[MSW]

Cut the B.S., and at least make some effort in paying attention to a show when you're trying to argue a point about it.

You really should follow your own advice...

[Keith]

Cut the B.S., and at least make some effort in paying attention to a show when you're trying to argue a point about it.

You really should follow your own advice...

I'll get on that as soon as you learn the masterful art of wit.

[MSW]

I'll get on that as soon as you learn the masterful art of wit.

Don't let little old me hold hostage your drive for self improvement! Get on it now.

Oh...And for future refrence, it's "learn to master the art of wit"

[Keith]

I'll get on that as soon as you learn the masterful art of wit.

Don't let little old me hold hostage your drive for self improvement! Get on it now.

Oh...And for future refrence, it's "learn to master the art of wit"

Nope, I specifically said "learn the masterful art of wit," of course how could I expect such a thing from someone who can only resort to trying to re-organize sentance & word struction (of a sentence there was nothing wrong with in the first place) as a reply.

[MSW]

Nope, I specifically said "learn the masterful art of wit," of course how could I expect such a thing from someone who can only resort to trying to re-organize sentance & word struction (of a sentence there was nothing wrong with in the first place) as a reply.

Now you are just whining.

[Keith]

Nope, I specifically said "learn the masterful art of wit," of course how could I expect such a thing from someone who can only resort to trying to re-organize sentance & word struction (of a sentence there was nothing wrong with in the first place) as a reply.

Now you are just whining.

That's ok, you can have your last word, I'll stand firm knowing I had the last relavent portion of the argument.

[Myriad]

I hope all this argueing does not create a space-time bomb. that would mean the wrath of the Mu!

[jenius]

I just finished the series and i was honestly quite impressed. The first ten episodes had me really on the fence. There are still some things I don't like it but overall it was pretty darn good. The ending seemed a little rushed but I think that's just because the subtitles were getting really hard to follow.

I am confused about one thing, it very well could just be a subtitle problem, Keith says:

It was explicitely explained during the series, only a few dimensions were caught in the anomoly (Chilam, Eiman, dragon/dinosaur, etc), it was a very localized mishap

However, in my version of the show it is explicitely explained that there are hundreds of dimensions involved. They even show a map of Earth that is completely fragmented by a multitude of dimensions. There's a diagram shown where something like six strains of dimensions are sucked into one though also. Perhaps the subtitles are just screwy and it's trying to show how fragmented those six universes are on Earth???

Also, that ending is a total mind pho ck. It seemed to me that once the anomaly was collapsed pretty much anything could have happened. It was kind of a "Hey, it's over now, make believe whatever ending you like... just as long as its happy."

I also just took this from the Orguss Viewer's guide:

The operator explains: The Daitokuiten has bonded many universes together, more than a hundred. This instability occurred because, when the Daitokuiten formed, it was split. Had it stayed in one piece, the bomb would have functioned exactly as it was designed to. Kei and one other are the parts that must be found. A time will come when they must act to undo the mess. Kei asks what he must do. As the lights come back up, the operator says that they don't know, but it's safe so don't worry.

Edited February 21, 2006 by jenius

[Keith]

I meant few in the grander scheme of things. It wasn't every universe being smashed together, just a handful of them. They clearly show universes (in the chart) being safe from the effects of the bomb.

I still think the ending is pretty straight forward. Kei & Orsen travel back in time, kill Kei & Orsen before setting off the bomb, and in their death's, view a life which is preferable, but will never happen.

[Renato]

I meant few in the grander scheme of things. It wasn't every universe being smashed together, just a handful of them. They clearly show universes (in the chart) being safe from the effects of the bomb.

I still think the ending is pretty straight forward.  Kei & Orsen travel back in time, kill Kei & Orsen before setting off the bomb, and in their death's, view a life which is preferable, but will never happen.

372211[/snapback]

Since we never see anyone die, I think it is just as fair to say that depending on who killed whom, the different "endings" that we see flashed up on the screen are all plausible. E.g., if the Kei who travelled back in time shot the slightly younger Kei, he would end up with Mimsy. If the younger Kei shot the older Kei, he would end up with Tina.

[Keith]

Except that would make no sense whatsoever, and contradict the entire purpose of them traveling back in time....

Plus since all 4 were shot, how could the other two go on?

Edited February 21, 2006 by Keith

[Renato]

Plus since all 4 were shot, how could the other two go on?

372354[/snapback]

Again, how do we know this?

When I have time in the next couple of weeks I'll gather all the information I have about what the hell happened there so we can think this through properly. That includes going through the Orguss sourcebooks, Animage etc.

[jenius]

Plus since all 4 were shot, how could the other two go on?

I think Renato's argument is that they never make it clear that all four men were shot. They show all men drawing their guns but then it starts going into montage mode and we never do see all men getting hit by a slug and then collapsing to the ground. The odds of all four men being killed are astronomically against it but I do believe that was the show's intention.

Unfortunately the subtitles left me way vague on how exactly the time/space could be restored. Everyone seemed to think that Kei and Olsen would arrive at the Special Point and have a decision on what reality they wanted to restore. Why? When they got there it sure didn't seem like it would have mattered if either the Eimann or the Chirum had managed to implant mind control devices (or brainwashsed) Kei and Olsen.

[Renato]

True.

I have a question. What version are you guys watching? HK subs? How do they translate "tokuiten" (the term given to Kei and Olson)?

[jenius]

I have a question. What version are you guys watching? HK subs? How do they translate "tokuiten" (the term given to Kei and Olson)?

I just watched the HK subs. They are usually referred to as "the special point" toward the end of the series. In the beginning I believe it was something different, something like the Transformer or something like that.

[Myriad]

The subs in the Indian and this version ( http://cgi.ebay.com/Orguss-Anime-TV-Series...1QQcmdZViewItem ) are the same.

Great show!

Things are still screwed up because of the offspring....

[Renato]

Just saw the final episode again today and I still am not 100% convinced that Kei and Olson actually went back in time. It seems to me that that particular moment (just before the Space-Time Oscillation Bomb was activated) was recorded inside the Daitokuiten. Notice how "past" Kei and Olson's Bronco IIs materialise out of nowhere.

Half of me was concentrating on my toasted baguette so I will do more research.

Not sure how Athena and Mimsy ever thought they were gonna get back, though. From the looks of things they're just left stuck at the top of the Orbital Elevator. Although I guess if the dimensions were restored it wouldn't matter, and if in fact the Space Island crashing into the daitokuiten did have the disastrous consequences predicted, they'd all be dead anyway.

Anyway, damn good show. Funny how you have to put a lot of thinking work into trying to interpret a happy ending for these guys though!

[jenius]

Okay, can somebody lay down what the "space island" is and why it is going to have disastrous consequences if it smashes into the "daitokuiten." Why isn't the daitokuiten located at the place where the bomb was originally placed? Is the space island just a comet that coincidentally is in an orbit that will have it smash into this mysterious spot?

Would Kei's kid have smaller antennas than the other Eimann's?

Edited February 24, 2006 by jenius

[Renato]

The daitokuiten is a point which orbits the earth. Meanwhile, the ruins of the Space Island, a disused space station, were still orbiting the Earth at the time, and in one of the last few episodes their orbit path was discovered to be -- as you said -- coincidentally on a collission trajectory with the daitokuiten.

The actual details here aren't important, the role this plays in terms of plotting is merely to add a "clock countdown" to further complicate Kei and Olson's predicament -- in Hollywood, you would have like a self-destruct mechanism or something where the hero has one hour to save the universe or something. Same thing here.

In the final couple of episodes some debris was found which was hoped would slow down the velocity of the Space Station and thus miss the intercept point with the daitokuiten (obviously on a differently shaped orbit). However, the final episode showed that this had no effect and so Kei and gang had one hour to get up the elevator and get the Dimensional Conversion Device (what Keith calls the "Time Machine") into the daitokuiten before all hell breaks loose.

Time to watch that "Tokuiten" episode again, I think... Looks like there are a few answers lurking in that one..

[honneamise]

I didn´t see a time travel in the last episode as well. The device Olson and Kei used was made to get through the dimensional barrier of the daitokuiten which consists of time and space. It´s traveling THROUGH but not necessarily back. They encounter their younger selves trapped in the moment just when the bomb detonated (I don´t think it is BEFORE the detonation, in my logic it is when the effect occured and of course it was all caused by the bomb) - no matter if they went 5 years back or 15 they would probably encounter the same scene.

When they arrive, they obviously don´t know what to expect or what to do, so it is not about using their device anymore... they see their younger selves and instantly know what must be changed to restore the world. Strangely, all 4 of them even seem to have a kind of "silent agreement" about what has to be done - no 2 Keis or Olsons can exist simultaneously...

I guess in our western logic the 4 might have worked out to kill only 2 to keep the other 2 alive, but in my book the drawing of the guns is a determined act of self-sacrification to save the rest of the world and discussion about who may have survived is pretty fruitless. Within the pace of the series the characters had become progressively more determined to fulfill their fates no matter what cost so this scene just shows that they don´t hesitate to do so.

At the very moment of the shooting the dimensions are literally shown to get parallel again so there is little doubt about the effect. The dimensional mess will be resolved after this, but there is no hint that we get "back to start" to the events in ep.1. I guess even after all is restored, Mimsy will still be pregnant...?! I mean, why should the writers introduce such an event only to render it completely irrelevant afterwards? At least we are supposed to think about it....

I still don´t know what all the scenes with the main characters as possible couples are supposed to mean: "could-have-beens" or "may-be´s in other dimensions" ?

Even within the distorted dimensions Kei has always been a human and had no tentacles, so why has he got them in one of those scenes? But... wasn´t there some dream sequence in the middle of the series with Mimsy (or another character) being a human? I really don´t remember, I have to watch it again....

All in all, I don´t think there is a simple, scientific, western-logic explanation to all the events, after all this is japanese animation and even the most straightforward animes tend to get very sybolistic and open to interpretation at the end.

You might call me a dumbass for that "non-conclusion" but I don´t want to conjecture facts out of my limited mind just to make everything fit my expectations. IMO that would only ruin the magic, and after all, this is a piece of art, not a documentary