New Gundam toy category

[Final Vegeta]

Gundam was so tall because of sponsor constraints. Creators tried their best to be realistic. Maybe you missed some people who worked on Gundam:

http://www.anime.net/macross/production/cr...ichi/index.html

http://www.anime.net/macross/production/cr...iroh/index.html

Anyway, without Gundam someone would have still drawed inspiration from Starship Troopers or the like.

http://www.ex.org/4.1/33-book_g2.html

The Guncannon, the original mecha, is similar to a powered armor.

FV

[Californium]

Could be a nice line. The name of the line alone makes me a bit more interested. I'd love to see four or five Dunbine mechs done in that size and detail, although that's unlikely.

[CF18]

They are publicly showing them today in hK

[uminoken]

http://www.ex.org/4.1/33-book_g2.html

Any plans to translate this? Sounds like a good read

[Anubis]

Wow, looking at HLJ's pics they seem more interesting. Lot of detail there in that small package, easy to display lots of them. Shipping will be easier. They're so tiny though. 1/200!!! Impressive detail for that kind of scale. Almost 1500 yen though, kind of pricey for that size, but the detail is definately there. Let's see how well the joints support the weapons and poses. I still think 1/144's may be small enough for me, but I'm curious to see at least one of these now.

Check out how the rick-dom looks:

Edited April 11, 2004 by Anubis

[Anubis]

And the Zaku.

[~Duo~Trenten]

Just a shark adding his two cents.

I was wondering if this is just me or other people may think this but, it would be cool the have different numbers on the mass production type suits. like the GM's.

So you could be able to have a designation numbers on the sheild or what not like from 03th and 05th and so on. This would make them more unique and for a better looking fight seen for those the do that kind of stuff. You also wouldnt have to now look for decals to fit a 1/200 size MS.

well i guess thats it.

[Bloodcat]

If they werent 12-14 US for a GI Joe sized toy they could be pretty cool minis for tabletop mecha wargaming. Sadly they are not, thus its just more redone UC crap. Bandai: Flogging a dead horse till otaku stop throwing money at us.

[Gaijin]

Not really a Gundam fan, so of course not excited one bit about this. Wishes Bandaui would invest in Macross mecha...not the old chunky monkeys, not that Macross 7 plastic stuff....real nice stuff.

Or maybe perhaps something different...the orbital frames from Zone of The Enders would be nice...Jehuty, Anubis, Ardjet, Vic Viper, Nephtis, Raptors, Mummies, Clods...would make a cool line.

[Prowlus]

they should really have used more interesting mecha to kick start the line off

Ain't the old RX-78 Zaku have already been done to the death already? Howabout a Zeta, Sazabi, or a Airmaster ?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

hmmmmm . 10 yrs? I am sure they can't rely on gundam alone for one bigass line for 2 years. MSIa is only what like 2-4 years? and things are dragging down for that. I might buy up an arch enemies gundam so I don't know about HCM pro. Id rather have a 12 inch DX Rx-78 with g fighter combo set. hail yea.

anyways lets hop[e HCM pro is a smaller scale HCM 2 line with vifam, MACROSS, and some other suff. BTW NYU gundam would be bigger in HCM pro scale . lets hope iof an HCM pro macross toy comes out, it is at leas 1/100 or 1/72 scale and with a little diecast. Its bandai we KNOW they can pull off perfect transformartion too.

[Noyhauser]

Well, Battletech wins on the realism front.

AHAH, you''ve got to be kidding right?

BAttle Tech is about the worst for realism. Go look at Heavy gear if you want realism, The picture of a AC-10 using a sphereical shell blew any sort of credibility for BT out from underneath it. Mechs are slow lumbering beasts that should make easy targets for airborne threats with guided missiles, but for some reason there aren't any... hmmm. Moreover, tanks and other units are completely dominated by battlemechs. In many cases its worse than Gundam for its mechafetish. And don't even get me onto the universe.

If you want a realistic system, go look at heavy gear (which derives alot from VOTOMS in style, but surpasses it on many different levels). It essentially uses technology today with some advances, to make a logical place for mecha. Gears sit right between tanks and Infantry as a weapon, and have about the same armor as a T-72 tank today. They are best for broken up, hilly terrain, rather than tanks who need a long lead time to take out units from afar, and infantry which needs cover. Employing gears needs a specific doctrine beside other arms.

BT is just plain horrible.

[Final Vegeta]

I won't argue with you here, since I believe the optimum size for piloted mech is about 8 meters tall, the size of a PatLabor. Of course, that makes the Valkyrie grossly oversized as well :-P

GERWALK mode. 8.7 m. Still big and cumbersome for that size, but a hell lot faster than a labor.

Compare the 20 beam shots to what, 5 seconds of shots from the VF-1's gunpods? I think I'll take the 20 beam shots, each capable of bringing down a space cruiser, than 5 seconds of ballistic projectiles.

The seconds of fire are kinda realistic, besides you are grossly underestimating gunpod's fire.

In these days the answer of a twenty years old riddle came to me, I think I have understood what VF-1's stats really meant.

You may be tired of hearing it, but yet RX-78 must be named again. Given Ionesco City, Gunsight and Gundam fanclub's #1 card, Gundam cannot be parted from Macross.

RX-78

overall height 18.5 meters; head height 18.0 meters

VF-1

Battroid mode:

Height overall: 12.68 m

You can see the VF-1 is ~2/3 as tall as the Gundam. You may know it from long time.

RX-78

Weight: empty 43.4 metric tons; max gross 60.0 metric tons

VF-1

Mass empty: 13250 kg

Standard T-O mass: 18500 kg

The weight is consistently proportioned, being 2/3 tall it weighs ~1/3 (27/8).

Gundam is famous for its lunar titanium alloy armor which could withstand those 120 mm Zaku's machine-gun. This alloy has "lunar" in the name because it was made in space.

Now, in the official chronology of Macross there is a curious information, Valkyries were made on space colonies and the Lunar surface's Apollo Base.

What does this in-joke means? Valkyrie have an armor similar to that of the RX-78.

It seems authors had said Battroids have an armor comparable to that of modern day tanks, and modern day heavy tanks can actually withstand a 120 mm round fired by another tank.

I have a further proof.

RX-78

maximum ground running speed 165 km/h

VF-1

BATTROID mode:

Max level speed: walking 160 km/h

As robot they have the same speed. However in GERWALK mode the VF-1 can hit 500 km/h, which is three times the speed of the RX-78.

RX-78

Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 2 x 24000 kg, 4 x 1870 kg

VF-1

POWER PLANT: Two Shinnakasu Heavy Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engines (with thermonuclear reactor and MHD), each rated at 11500 kg [x g] class (23000 kg [x g] in overboost).

This maybe doesn't seem to mean much, but let's calculate thrust to mass ratio:

RX-78

48000 kg : 60.0 tons

ratio: ~5/6

VF-1

46000 kg (overboost) : 18.5 tons

ratio: ~5/2

The VF-1 has three times the thrust.

Now, this is the key that makes all the sense: why with the energy converting armor the VF-1 can TRIPLE the Fighter mode's armor strength in Battroid mode?

This is the answer: the VF-1 could choose to have either RX-78's armor and speed (Battroid) or three times less armor yet three times the speed (GERWALK and Fighter).

As for power, things go differently.

RX-78

Powerplant: Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 1380 kW

VF-1

Battroid Mode

Main Engine Power Output (Ground Combat)

17680 PS (13000 kW)

The key proportion now is TEN.

The RX-78 has twenty shots for its beam rifle. The VF-1 has 200 rounds (20 x 10) for its gunpod. I believe this means each round of a GU-11 does almost the same damage of a beam rifle's hit. Firing at 1200 rpm, a short burst of a half second fires 10 rounds.

The RX-78 has 6 rounds for its 380 mm hyper-bazooka (5 in the clip and 1 in chamber). A VF-1 can carry four UUM-7 micro-missile pods (one on each hard point) each carrying up to fifteen Bifors HMM-01 micro-missiles, thus resulting in 60 micro-missiles. I think each micro-missile does the same damage of 1 bazooka's round.

As for the head vulcans, the only stat I could find was the 60 mm bore, however for the Z Gundam I found out that each gun holds 600 rounds. No rate of fire given. As for the VF-1, I only know each laser fires 6000 pulses per minute. I think maybe there was a connection with the number 60.

Following this logic, the Strike Valkyrie's beam cannons should do 5 times the damage of a beam rifle each (5x2=10), which is also five times the damage of a GU-11 round.

As for the rest, VF-1 has pretty much the same things the RX-78 has.

The RX-78 has Minowsky particles, the VF-1 has active stealth (plus more advanced tracking technology, ie optics and infrared).

The RX-78 has re-entry coolant system, the VF-1 has transformation.

The RX-78 has a magnetic coating upgrade, the Compendium says the VF-1 has "Fluid pulse actuators enabling transformation".

The RX-78 has learning computer, the VF-1 has combat computer, engine control system, and fire control system in chest section in Battroid mode, plus internal navigation system, AOA detector, and balance controller in nosecone, and many other things, some of them I can't even understand what their use is (ACS?).

Then the VF-1 has various booster, for the armor (GBP-1S), the speed (FAST Packs) and the power (nukes), but this is another thing.

As large as a Mobile SUIT is, most of the space is dedicated to propellant and mechanics. Unlike Macross, Gundam does not rely on a magnet driven engine. While it's true that Gundam had fusion reactors, it still needed to pump propellant around the reactors to produce thrust. No magic magnetic fields to push exhaust gases out the back pipe.

It seems Gundam concentrate solely on the weapons.

As far as the catch-all Minovsky particle is concerned, it makes enough sense to me. I don't think the particle was meant to trap IR signatures though. As I recalled, the only waves Minovsky particles can scramble are those with longer wavelengths, such as radio. Visible light and infra-red are unaffected. Why they don't use laser and IR track systems is beyond me.

The things that bothers me is that they started mixing together beam rifle and beam sabers. They don't work the same way.

FV

[Stamen0083]

GERWALK mode. 8.7 m. Still big and cumbersome for that size, but a hell lot faster than a labor.

A hell of a lot faster, and a hell of a lot less realistic.

Bipedal robot is one thing. Bipedal robot that transforms...

The RX-78 has twenty shots for its beam rifle. The VF-1 has 200 rounds (20 x 10) for its gunpod. I believe this means each round of a GU-11 does almost the same damage of a beam rifle's hit. Firing at 1200 rpm, a short burst of a half second fires 10 rounds.

What are you basing this on?

By the way, what was the point of the comparison?

The things that bothers me is that they started mixing together beam rifle and beam sabers. They don't work the same way.

Who's they? When? Where?

Beam rifle is based on the concept of megaparticles bursting out of its I-field. Beam saber has always been based on super heated plasma. They were never mixed.

Edited April 11, 2004 by Stamen0083

[F-ZeroOne]

Actually, I think the RX-78 is like a samurai. It has a samurai style head, plus the two swords (beam sabers) thing going on.

Anyway, I've watched all the UC Gundam stuff years and years ago, except for ZZ, which I gave up on half way through.

My favorites are 0080, 08MST, CCA and V. I don't actually like 0083 much as I find Kou and Nina too whiney and annoying. I also find Z to by very over-rated.

Even though 08MST is more realistic than most, I still hate that they are taking these bright white, red and blue robots into jungle and desert combat. Talk about standing out like a sore thumb. At least the Zions had the sense to paint their Zaks green

Graham

The show Tomino worked on previously to Gundam was Zanbot 3 which has a very samurai-like design ( it was also a combiner, with elements similar to the combined Gundam from the TV series - something largely excised from the movies).

Funnily enough, Tomino also doomed one of the biggest toy companies in Japan by changing the Gundam design after Clover produced toys based on early Gundam designs...

Its possible to argue that as as Gundam centres around close combat, camoflauge isn't quite so important - perhaps W.W.I style dogfights were more of an inspiration than Vietnam style conflicts?

However, having seen the "mecha & realism" arguement go around various newsgroups and forums for years, I think the only way you can really rationale any giant combat robot is:

Because it looks cool. [1]

[1] Up until a couple years ago, much as I loved mecha, I never believed there would be a practical piloted model. Recent developments by Sony and Honda have convinced me otherwise, but I still have yet to see any completely convincing argument as regards combat suitability...

[Jolly Rogers]

Forget HCM Pro, now this is exciting stuff:

[Black Valkyrie]

I've always wanted to get this off my chest and seeing most of you are Gundam freaks in this forum this is my humble opinion 'them blue red yellow & white two legged colored expensive trash compactors are shurre ugghly!'

Well I don`t blame you this is your opinon, as for me I`m Gundam freak (UC of course) and even as a Macross freak too my Gundam collection are more than Macross and the simple answer is that Yamato`s VF`s are too expensive.

By the way any sites to Gasaraki and Dragonar ?

[Bloodcat]

Well, Battletech wins on the realism front.

AHAH, you''ve got to be kidding right?

BAttle Tech is about the worst for realism. Go look at Heavy gear if you want realism,  The picture of a AC-10 using a sphereical shell blew any  sort of credibility for BT out from underneath it.  Mechs are slow lumbering beasts that should make easy targets for airborne threats with guided missiles, but for some reason there aren't any... hmmm. Moreover, tanks and other units are completely dominated by battlemechs. In many cases its worse than Gundam for its mechafetish.  And don't even get me onto the universe.

BT is just plain horrible.

So some dude drew an unrealistic shell for the AC10. Or it might have been an LBX AC10, which is basically a shotgun. Artists are artists.

And read the BT Novels. Air support is constantly mentioned. It usually ends up with whomever controls the air wins, but not always. (See every major war since WW2.) Mechs die to aerospace assets about as rapidly as tanks do. Play Battletech with Aerospace 2 rules included. Mechbuster conventional fighters become a nightmare for ground forces.

And the missles are guided, but they are more like semiguided, more or less advanced versions of the FFAR rockets used on some helicopter gunships.

What is so unrealistic about the universe? Other than the conceit there are huge numbers of possible human habitable planets and going into hyperspace, its all possibly doable technology. Humanity is still greedy and nations still bicker. Technology took a nosedive and was somewhat increased due to war and access to some old datafiles and advanced tech. Things plateaued out, dipped, then came back up. There isn't any mech that is super unstoppable, and very few pilots who would act ANYTHING like the characters in your average Gundam show, outside of some particularly well brainwashed Clanners. Which is why they lost with superior technology. (Sort of like oh.. the US Revolutionary War?) Mechs are more survivable compared to tanks for the reasons I already listed. Less crew, more compartmentalized design, and improved maneuverability.

I can't comment too much on Heavy Gear since like almost everyone else I generally ignored it for Mechwarrior and Battletech. And its 60+ novels. And TV show. If I wanted a Votoms game I will open up my Votoms RPG book and use it thanks...

The Battletech boardgame while considered complex now was considered a Beer & Pretzels game back when it was created in the mid 80s. (Compare it to Advanced Squad Leader and Starfleet Battles, the game it most resembles...) Some things in the game rules are a bit unrealistic, and the designers and fans generally accept and acknowledge it. It was considered to be an abstraction. Which is why the follow up spiritual successor to the Battletech line, Renegade Legion, did things a little bit different.

Sadly, that game didn't do too well, though I loved the Leviathan ruleset for big, quick & dirty "Battle of Endor" scaled capital ship ops..

No idea how the Gundam RPG will do in realism, probably as poorly as the source material does...(Well, if R Talsorian ever actually RELEASES it..)

These new little HCMs would be a good fit for the game. Too bad they suck ass in price. (Could always use MSIAs, but the scale on those things is all over the place according to those in the know..)

(2nd edit to avoid further thread derailment: I actually played the Heavy Gear 2 PC game. I never felt once like I was in a robot. It was a nice power armor game, but it had the typical Activision Mecha game difficulty curve and I gave up somewhere during some insane stealth mission. I tried playing it again recently and gave up before even finishing the tutorials finding it bland, clunky, and requiring far too many control changes to be playable. I found the universe to be completely uncompelling, and the mecha design to be ugly and not in the cool tank kind of ugly Battletech gives off. I have been playing Battletech since 1988 so I am kinda biased. It was my first tabletop wargame outside of some educational simplistic games in some book the school library had. I still play Battletech and I attempted to be a Fanpro Commando for my area, promoting the game and running demos. Ive taught around 10 people the game, all of whom quite enjoyed it. It replaced Robotech and Transformers for me in a time when they were considered dead properties and Gundam was just some cool ass robots in shows I would never see but man o man did the articles in Protoculture Addicts and Mecha Press sound cool!.)

Edited April 14, 2004 by Bloodcat

[one_klump]

I know you are enamered with Battletech, but you really should give Heavy Gear a shot. The designs are, IMHO, much more realistic, and the weapons are fitting for the combat role they are given. The gears are not hand-of-God powerful, but if used right, they can mean the difference between winning and losing, much like modern armor.

BT mechs are just to blocky, stiff, and just too unweildly to be of any real use in the battlefield. One tank shell to a leg and its outta commission.

One the other hand, Heavy Gears are small enough to actually use terrain for cover, they can move just as a soldier can move, walking, crawling, etc.

Also, the Secondary Movement System on the gears is awesome

BTW, Bloodcat, look around for Heavy Gear II on PC, it is a great game, even if you are not a HG fan

[Greyryder]

I've always wanted to get this off my chest and seeing most of you are Gundam freaks in this forum this is my humble opinion 'them blue red yellow & white two legged colored expensive trash compactors are shurre ugghly!'

The color scheme sure doesn't help them. Part of the reason I like the Gundam from war in a Pocket is the white and blue color scheme. It's not as garish as the regular Gundam paint job.

I don't think anything vaguely like a Gundam would ever be seen on a real battle field, but I enjoy watching them blow the crap out of each other, when I catch a show on TV. I still prefer the close range small scale combat of the later Zoids series. I'm just a sucker for mecha melee.

[Noyhauser]

I was really into battletech... until about 8 years ago when I discovered HG. The realism factors are just not comparable. You can effectively simulate anything with the Sillouette system from simple lighting a piece of paper to fleet level combat. The system encourages intelligent thinking. You can either go with high cost//fewer number of units, vs low quality high numbers, depending on your tactics. You have to intelligently design or pick your vehicles, unlike BT where its Pack as many weapons on a frame and lets go. Thats not how a vehicle is designed in real life. You've got to consider cost and role.

The tactics used in HG are very similar to the ones we use today. Combined arms teams are vital. Gears are prized for their adaptabilty and manuverabilty, not for their super armor or heavy weapons. But in different situations they are at extreme disadvantages. Infantry are the best for city scapes since they are heavily obscured, while a tank would eat a gear alive on a flat terrain.

Realistically, a humaniod design is a brutal design if you want to make something survivable in combat. we present huge cross section to hit and numerous shot traps. Tanks on the other hand are the best design because they are squat, low to the ground and can carry more armor where it matters. Thats why in the HG universe tanks rule all, carrying the heaviest weapons and the most armor. honestly if you wanted to make something survivable you'd make it a tank, not a lumbering walking beast,

And the missles are guided, but they are more like semiguided, more or less advanced versions of the FFAR rockets used on some helicopter gunships.

Why not fully guided? If they can design minaturized nuclear reactors that have to precicely control a magnetic Jar, I think building fully guided missiles could be a sinch. HG Guided weapons are quite common. Guided mortars are evil evil creation as are target designators. You can arm artillery shells with guidance sensors AKA copperheads. All weapon types are accurately represented.

What is so unrealistic about the universe? Other than the conceit there are huge numbers of possible human habitable planets and going into hyperspace, its all possibly doable technology.

Compared to the HG universe, it pales in comparison, This is partly due to HG dual aspect as a RPG system. I know that BT used to have a RPG aspect, but it abandoned that long ago. Dream pod 9 embraces the roleplaying aspect. Life on terranova is considered one of the best sourcebooks ever put out by any company. The City States described unbelievably detailed, and work off political and sociological models. Examine the depth of information about the Norlight Confederacy or the United Mercantile Federation. DP9 has fleshed out these world to the most minutest detail. the UMF, a corporatist state does not have any taxes, however you must purchace services from government like voting voutchers. Most of these states have varying political systems that players can interact in.

BT's 60+ novels are just pulp fiction, they can't compare to the Storybook series. Thats also one of the best things about HG, it is that the whole series is still in the hands of the original creators, the Oullette brothers. They have maintained tne metaplot behind the whole universe.

[Final Vegeta]

A hell of a lot faster, and a hell of a lot less realistic.

Bipedal robot is one thing. Bipedal robot that transforms...

It wouldn't be a robot that transforms, but a plane that transforms. It wouldn't be a bipedal robot, it would be a bipedal plane for combat air & gound patrol. It wouldn' be a robot, this is the difference in the real world.

Anyway, I don't believe in realism about mechas

What are you basing this on?

What I said I believe or think is my speculation, other things (ie stats) are official and can be found in the Compendium.

By the way, what was the point of the comparison?

Was the energy converting armor really thought at the time and why? The answer is yes, given by exact proportions. Maybe if Kawamori were to make Macross nowadays he could think the concept is awkward and discard it from the show, but at the time there was this competition thing going on.

Even the active stealth must have been thought twenty years ago; it wasn't new in Macross Plus, and it wasn't new in Macross Zero. These are informations we didn't know, but the in-jokes in the stats reveal them.

I even suppose active stealth worked even in Battroid, and Regults, Glaugs and Queadlunn Raus all had it.

Who's they? When? Where?

Beam rifle is based on the concept of megaparticles bursting out of its I-field. Beam saber has always been based on super heated plasma. They were never mixed.

The Z has beam sabers doubling as beam rifles in Wave Rider mode. At least that's what I read from mahq.

There was another thing I didn't understand, from 08th MS team:

The Gundam still had the generator power to use a beam rifle, though it was often equipped with a standard 100 mm machinegun or a heavy 180 mm cannon.

What does that mean? The power of the beam rifle comes from the E-cap, not from the generator. I think that's some traslation error.

FV

[Stamen0083]

It wouldn't be a robot that transforms, but a plane that transforms. It wouldn't be a bipedal robot, it would be a bipedal plane for combat air & gound patrol. It wouldn' be a robot, this is the difference in the real world.

In the real world, planes will not transform.

Pray tell, how the hell do you go from 400 knots in fighter mode to 100 knots in Battroid mode in midair in seemingly very little time? The acceleration would kill the pilot.

Don't give me this Macross is more realistic than Gundam propaganda. The entire Macross community hasn't sufficiently convinced me.

Anyway, I don't believe in realism about mechas

You can believe what you want. No one's forcing anything on you.

What I said I believe or think is my speculation, other things (ie stats) are official and can be found in the Compendium.

Does the Compedium actually compare the power of the Gundam's beam shot to the Gunpod's rounds? I don't think so. So where did you get that each round has about the same power as the Gundam's beam rifle?

Was the energy converting armor...

I even suppose active stealth worked...

Doesn't address my question of what was the point of the comparison, does it?

The Z has beam sabers doubling as beam rifles in Wave Rider mode. At least that's what I read from mahq.

A beam saber in the hands may work as a beam rifle in the hardpoint. When the Zeta Gundam actually holds the beam saber and shoots things with it, then I'll have a problem. As is, I'm not convinced.

There was another thing I didn't understand, from 08th MS team:

The Gundam still had the generator power to use a beam rifle, though it was often equipped with a standard 100 mm machinegun or a heavy 180 mm cannon.

What does that mean? The power of the beam rifle comes from the E-cap, not from the generator. I think that's some traslation error.

It's not an error. The power of the beam rifle does not come from the E-cap alone. The E-cap simply provides the MegaParticles for the rifle. The Mobile SUIT's generator provides the punch needed to throw those particles out there. Think of the E-cap as the rounds, and the generator power as the gunpowder needed to launch them.

Edited April 18, 2004 by Stamen0083

[Final Vegeta]

In the real world, planes will not transform.

In the real world, there are no mechas. I don't think there are neutral particle beams, either (anyway, they would suck within atmosphere), or plasma swords. Or miniaturized fusion reactors.

Pray tell, how the hell do you go from 400 knots in fighter mode to 100 knots in Battroid mode in midair in seemingly very little time? The acceleration would kill the pilot.

Every animes should have a subtitle: "Do not try this at home"

It wouldn't be a fast transformation in real world, but then again mechas in real world wouldn't move that fast. It's a kind of glamour approach but all mecha show have it, and I can live with it.

Then again, I don't think you have proof about the exact speed they were going. In anime we can have 11 years old girl who look like 15; speed must be faster in fiction than in actual reality

Don't give me this Macross is more realistic than Gundam propaganda. The entire Macross community hasn't sufficiently convinced me.

Galileo Galilei couldn't convince people Earth was not the center of the universe, how many chances do I get? And how much do I care?

I've said I don't believe in realism about mecha. If you watch carefully every shows has its guilty flaws.

You say Gundam has not plasma exhausts. They have fusion reactors, and plasma weapons, yet not plasma exhausts. Well, thanks god they didn't have, or you'll end up with V2's wings of light. Like VF-1's vernier thrusters were plasma exhausts, too (only the main engines, even the backpack is chemical).

Planes which transform are not realistic? The original RX-78 had the core fighter. GP01 ditto. GP03 ditto, although animation contradicts it. Z transformed. ZZ transformed and have a core fighter. V had the core fighter. And it was not the robot of the week, it was the main star of the show. Then again, I can admit usually enemies are more realistic, because they don't need to look so good and cool.

I haven't watched all of Gundam, but what I saw (ignoring even AC) didn't make me scream high realism.

The beam saber concept alone is enough unrealistic. You don't want to make your enemies with all their ammos and fuel exploding in your face. Yet you see a Dom leaning the muzzle of its bazooka on the chest of a Zaku and firing. In real world, would it be really a wise thing to do?

In the first episode of 0083 they are training around a building. Since a MS is 20 m tall, that building must have been nearly 300 m tall, like some Eiffel Tower. Kou once jumped off from the top of it to make a sneak attack on his captain, and land undamaged without trying to brake his fall using its backpack rockets. In real world, would it be really a wise thing to do?

Even Nu Gundam, which supposedly should be a gimmickless mecha, can do something as fancy as shooting dummy ballons from its fingers. Dummy ballons which can inflate up to a MS size in a second.

You see Macross and you don't scream high realism, and I see Gundam and I don't scream high realism. I think disagreements are natural, so I don't care. Just don't tell a Gundam looks more realistic than a Destroid or I laugh at you. Really.

What piss me is that the whole realism idea about Gundam involves a mecha which was not there in Gundam show, and many people call "Labor". Most of Gundam mecha side involves Minowsky and newtypes, which are not real world.

As for the concept of mecha in real world, there are several pitfalls.

If you'd just stick to make it work (walk), you'll end up with something that for good reasons no-one has ever produced. I think this is the fascination with Gundam: it can walk, and as long as there aren't any infantry with RPG, tanks and planes around it can still walk and have fun with other mechas. Obviously memory cuts Minowsky particles, newtypes, and even core fighters and transformations, so Gundam is realistic: it uses only current avalaible technology.

Actually, I think mechas in real world wouldn't be used to fight other mechas. It would be too risky. Mechas would be used to fight normal infantry.

In Patlabor they show how weak a mecha is. It can't have tough armor, so you can disable it with just some rifles. They have even troubles in city, since a low overpass can block their way. They don't jump. They have plenty of limits. Patlabor shows that mechas are over-rated.

Does the Compedium actually compare the power of the Gundam's beam shot to the Gunpod's rounds? I don't think so. So where did you get that each round has about the same power as the Gundam's beam rifle?

The power output. A VF-1 has 13 MW of power, ten times that of a RX-78.

A VF-1 supposedly can fire twenty short bursts, and in each short burst fires ten rounds. So at the end a GU-11 round has the same power of Gundam's beam rifle, maybe something less out of respect, and a short burst ends up having approximately ten times the power of a beam rifle.

Anyway, here is shown that the power of current real world 120 mm APFSDS round is 35,800 MJ/m^2. That's how much you can get out of ballistics. Don't understimate it, you and your lousy 1,9 MW.

Doesn't address my question of what was the point of the comparison, does it?

I think there is some linguistic barrier. Can you explain me what you want to know with other words?

For what I understand, it all started about what weapon would be preferable. I started talking about curious proportions in stats that supported my final thesis.

In one other thread, someone supposed the energy converting armor could work differently with the SV-51, instead of 1-3 like with the VF-0/1 it could have been something like a 1-1. I discovered why energy converting armor worked that way, and why 3 was the magic number.

A beam saber in the hands may work as a beam rifle in the hardpoint.

Where do fired megaparticles come from? The generator? It can mudane the mecha and fire mega-particles too (I could call it a Swiss power generator. Just hope Korea doesn't think about it)? There is an E-cap inside? They can't be inside beam sabers.

This is how Japaneses think mechas: energy oni covered with armor. You make a hole in their skin and energy gushes out. I noticed this concept watching Evangelion: you have the light giant which is covered by armor and become an Evangelion. That's their cultural image. Or maybe it's just how people unaware of physics think energy works. It's no wonder, maybe the people that invented Gundam's physics didn't work in the sequels. After all Tomino hates war and sci-fi, he just directed.

Anyway, the Z Gundam has even a beam rifle and a hyper mega launcher which both double as large beam sabers. Where do the plasma come from? We are stretching.

It's not an error. The power of the beam rifle does not come from the E-cap alone. The E-cap simply provides the MegaParticles for the rifle. The Mobile SUIT's generator provides the punch needed to throw those particles out there. Think of the E-cap as the rounds, and the generator power as the gunpowder needed to launch them.

So, Gundam had that hole in his hand, too.

And it was supposed to stop before shooting, because he needs all of his power to fire (less power and beam rifle doesn't work)? How unconvenient.

FV

[GobotFool]

Mecha and realism.... Such a silly conversation.

Though for the record, the most plausable mecha design to hit the screen (IMHO) is the GITS thinktank. Though anyone who as seen episode two of GITS:SAC will discover how easily one of these babies is disabled.

[GRAND CANNON]

More pics from the Shizuoka Hobby Show (linked at Gunota Headlines showing HCMPro pics including prototypes for the Z'Gock, Zock, Astray, and RX-178:

http://www.hobby.co.jp/images/hobby_show/pla/69.jpg

http://www.hobby.co.jp/images/hobby_show/pla/70.jpg

[Red Comet]

Well, Battletech wins on the realism front.

ROFLMAO!!!!

Oh wait. You were making a joke, right?

Yeah...

[Black Valkyrie]

To bad they are small if they were 1/144 or 1/100 scale, then I would certainlly buy some of them. Love the HCM Pro Gundam MK-II then again to small, I pass this category

[jonwayne]

i only want more PG.

[Montarvillois]

i only want more PG.

Amen brother.