Macross Zero

[Sundown]

Considering that the origins of the Protoculture & their influence on Earth were intentionally left vague in the original series, no one can firmly say that what's become of the Macross universe wasn't always intended. ESPECIALLY considering Kawamori & Mikimoto started out as huge Gundam fans, which :::gasp::: had "Newtypes" as a major plot point.

No one can say for sure either way. All we have to go on is the *feel* given in the original series, and how that *feel* persisted through some fifteen years.

Kawamori and Mikimoto being huge Gundam fans does little to prove that "magic" was originally intended to exist within the the Macross continuity. It only opens up a possibility that's mostly dashed by *actually viewing* SDF alone and considering that nothing "magicky" was added to the continuity until 15 years later.

I love Macross and the Matrix (or at least the first one). But that doesn't mean any Sci-Fi concept I come up automatically has to do with cyberpunk, virtual realities, or transforming mecha.

If magic was always intended to be a central theme to the continuity, then I'm going to go ahead and say it: The disruption the introduction of "magic" has caused, the disagreements its given rise to, and the lack of receptivity to M7 by many Macross fans points to one thing: Very Bad Storytelling.

But we wouldn't want to accuse Kawamori of that, now, do we? I'd rather just believe he needed a change of pace, wanted to cash in on flashy, Jpopy, mushy-love-magic commercialism, and dug out some old ideas he had brewing but cut out or was never really commited on... and added heapings of new ones.

-Al

[Sundown]

To go along with what Aegis first said, I've noticed that there are a lot of people on these boards who like Macross but not it sequels, like the Matrix but not its sequels, like the original Star Wars trilogy but not the Special Editions or Episode I or II, etc. It's like once upon a time, they saw something that they thought was incredible, and now they love their originals and wish for more of the exact same, but any attempts to expand upon the originals are rejected. It's almost as if, as fans, we at some point have to make a decision to go all out with the original product that so captivated us and reject the sequels, or embrace the creator's overall vision and possibly be forced to rethink our ideas about the original. I'm not saying that either way is right, because everyone is indeed entitled to their own opinions, but they definately seem to be born out of different mentalities.

There's also the vague possibility that this "expansion" isn't handled well, doesn't bring to the table anything that matches up in *quality* to the original-- and that the creator dropped the ball. I was an ardant defender of Matrix Reloaded, thinking that the Wachowski brothers had this grand plan that would all make sense and mesh together brilliantly by the third movie. I was ready to admit Reloaded wasn't *as* good a film cinematically as the original Matrix, but was very open to the possibility that as a trilogy, it would be a brilliant psychological and philosophical masterpiece.

Then Revolutions came out. And it became clear that the brothers themselves didn't have much clue to what half of the vague psychobabble dropped in Reloaded meant. They just went on dropping more of the same, instead of tying glaring ends up and showing the audience that they weren't just writing out of their butt. =P

Same goes with Star Wars SE. I hated the Greedo scene and Jedi Rocks scene because they both looked like arse and destroyed the original character or the original intent. It's not really the creator's "overall vision" if it's something he changes unexplicably after decades to play out differently (and much less effectively). I did dig the Coruscant and Bespin City celebration scenes at the end of ROTJ, even if they felt a little forced, and even if the bright, eye-burning CG clashed with the rest of the footage.

It's always fun to explain why folks might feel a certain way about a certain work, pinning human nature, tendencies, or motives on them that shed light on their perceptions. But I do find that looking at the work itself is usually a better indicator of why it gets lukewarm reception or wild fanfare.

-Al

[Anubis]

CROM Smiles at Macross Zero AND Macross 7

Except M7 Dynamite.  He LAUGHS at that.

CROM smiles at NOTHING M7.

Not even a slight glimpse of a grin?

[Nightbat]

I've seen this discussion before

Guess I'm gonna sit back and enjoy this

[J A Dare]

CROM Smiles at Macross Zero AND Macross 7

Except M7 Dynamite.  He LAUGHS at that.

CROM smiles at NOTHING M7.

Not even a slight glimpse of a grin?

Gubaba is sad.

[Lezt]

well X and wing are a bit far fetch but 0080 and Seed, i am sure on that

kira same as amuro finds a gundam and pilots it

both series havea crew of kids in the warships

[blah blah blah]

Well, you're STILL wrong.

That's not Gundam 0080 you're describing.

Everyone knows SEED was a retelling of 0079, so there should be no surprise that there are quite a considerable number of similarities between the two. You have quite a knack for the obvious though. Bravo. If only now you'd get the names of the series right.

opps i guese i messed up war in the pocket, stardust memories and MSG then again u can always throw Zeta zeta in.... same plot too...

[Agent ONE]

Any questions?

[dna]

That's not what Crom said to me the other day.

[Impreszive]

You shouldn't feel sorry. You should be enjoying this thread.

I'm starting to...

[Wes]

Any questions?

Yes, does Crom take requests? I have a Dynamics teacher that gave me the shaft last semester...

I have no real complains with the story - I just watched the 3rd episode again today, and if you look, Shin is developing, combat-wise, just watch the fight and you'll see what I mean.

And yes, Kawamori did make M7, but he did make M+, so let's not pass too much judgement until the end. I'm just saying that, if it takes 6 months for 30 mins of animation, it should show.

[RTShark]

Anyway...  Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've picked up in Macross Zero is that the fighters are all using conventional jet engines, i.e., they need atmosphere to work. Unlike the reaction drive engines that the VF-1 uses...

Well, Edgar mentioned in Episode 3 that the VF-0 can in fact work in space, that's why the intake shutters were closed and they went diving.

Well I didn't see the third episode until just last night and so couldn't take that into account.

I'd say, even if the VF-0 *could* fly in space, it probably wouldn't be very good at it, certainly much more limited than the VF-1, and probably incapable of getting orbital under it's own power (could the VF-1 get orbital on it's own? I'm not sure)...

[wolfx]

Anyway...   Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've picked up in Macross Zero is that the fighters are all using conventional jet engines, i.e., they need atmosphere to work. Unlike the reaction drive engines that the VF-1 uses...

Well, Edgar mentioned in Episode 3 that the VF-0 can in fact work in space, that's why the intake shutters were closed and they went diving.

Well I didn't see the third episode until just last night and so couldn't take that into account.

I'd say, even if the VF-0 *could* fly in space, it probably wouldn't be very good at it, certainly much more limited than the VF-1, and probably incapable of getting orbital under it's own power (could the VF-1 get orbital on it's own? I'm not sure)...

The VF-1 needed boosters to get into orbital flight. (And no these weren't the fastpacks, at least not in the TV series).

They are still jet engines but I think there was no propulsion in the water. The VF-0 simply dived into the water, using its remaining momentum to fly forward abit before encountering the variable sub.....and then it became into battroid and swam. The "built for space" bit was just to explain that the VF is airtight thus waterproof.

[azrael]

They are still jet engines but I think there was no propulsion in the water. The VF-0 simply dived into the water, using its remaining momentum to fly forward abit before encountering the variable sub.....and then it became into battroid and swam. The "built for space" bit was just to explain that the VF is airtight thus waterproof.

The "backpack" thrusters were on.

[wolfx]

They are still jet engines but I think there was no propulsion in the water. The VF-0 simply dived into the water, using its remaining momentum to fly forward abit before encountering the variable sub.....and then it became into battroid and swam. The "built for space" bit was just to explain that the VF is airtight thus waterproof.

The "backpack" thrusters were on.

Animation error.

Well....maybe they had limited hydrogen based fuel (the ones we use on space shuttles) to be used in an airless environment.

[Lezt]

They are still jet engines but I think there was no propulsion in the water. The VF-0 simply dived into the water, using its remaining momentum to fly forward abit before encountering the variable sub.....and then it became into battroid and swam. The "built for space" bit was just to explain that the VF is airtight thus waterproof.

The "backpack" thrusters were on.

Animation error.

Well....maybe they had limited hydrogen based fuel (the ones we use on space shuttles) to be used in an airless environment.

or the heat form the thruster is so intense that it plasmalised the water and frred the O from the H2O......

[Final Vegeta]

There's also the vague possibility that this "expansion" isn't handled well, doesn't bring to the table anything that matches up in *quality* to the original-- and that the creator dropped the ball.

I do agree with what you said about Matrix and Star Wars

But Macross Zero is more slightly tied to the other works of the same fictional universe.

Matrix mantained the same characters, and I can't say they were really ruined in the sequels; they added mostly useless characters, and some character like the French at least was funny although he did nothing in the final. What showed signs of decay was the fact agents weren't badasses anymore, since anyone was willing to fight against them and could manage to survive. It was how they story was wrapped in Revolutions what really turned the sequels into a crap.

Star Wars also mantained as many old characters as it could. Qui-Gon Jinn was nobody, Darth Maul too. People cared for the emperor, Obi-Wan, Anakyn, Yoda, Boba-Fett... and indeed they ruined one of the best villain ever showing him as that kid. They didn't stop at that, but from the beginning they turned battles into slapstick farces. The story itself... well, events are going in the direction they should, it's just they chose ludicrous plot devices and character development to make them going.

Macross Zero of the old show can ruin only Focker, and I don't feel it's doing it, aside from drawing differently. No inexperienced and bungler guy has still saved the day, so battles are safe, too. The only thing added was a person who the show insisted in showing she was born special, and what she has done so far is still insignificant. It's obvious she will do more things later, but I think this is a proper introduction which laid some limits, and in itself, unlike Macross 7, it doesn't have any relevance for events happened in the original series. The story of Macross Zero itself doesn't have connections with the story of SDF, as it seems it could be a bridge for something which is following Macross 7.

It's always fun to explain why folks might feel a certain way about a certain work, pinning human nature, tendencies, or motives on them that shed light on their perceptions. But I do find that looking at the work itself is usually a better indicator of why it gets lukewarm reception or wild fanfare.

But it's only when you've watched it you start talking about why it was received that way

Hearing people talking about a thing without really having seen it first can sometimes leads to a will of disagree with those people once you've seen the thing

About why a person perceives a thing in a way, it's too difficult to say, especially if you want do discern whether it was a matter of the show or of the person. I myself have rewatched something and discovered it was different from what I remembered.

Once I was seeing Evangelion with my cousin. It was the first time he saw the episode, and he kept asking what was happening and why. I thought it was obvious what was happening (weird things because of an angel's attack), and if it wasn't clear you should have just waited until something would have revealed it to you.

James Hudnall wrote the reason why people find something boring is because there is too much neutral. There should be a shift in polarity between a scene and the other, a positive scene (a character doing fine) should turn into a negative, and a negative one can even turn into a more negative one. This shift of polarity marks the impact the story is having on characters. In a good show the shift should became bigger each time, until the climax.

I don't buy the lack of development many claim. It's just that some people don't think the story is having too much impact on the characters so far, so they don't see the way they are changed, too. Obviously, when you don't like a thing you aren't pushed examining it further, and maybe you can even miss some details, resulting in that you don't understand later things and so you dislike the show even more.

In Macross Plus the lead's goals were clear from the beginning: winning the project and Myung. These grails were contended by an apt villain, and the way the grails came closer or further to the lead marked the progress in the story and what is called growth in the characters.

In Macross Zero the lead didn't have clear grails so far. It has been a mix of survival, both own and others', pride of being an ace, and the AFOS' head. Getting the girl is a separate matter.

So, at the end, Macross Zero is losing not because it's bad in itself, it's losing simply because of a formula. Sad but true.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

Kawamori and Mikimoto being huge Gundam fans does little to prove that "magic" was originally intended to exist within the the Macross continuity.

True. I think it was just thought an explanation of songs, tiing them to Protoculture, but not exactly in the way Macross 7 did.

If magic was always intended to be a central theme to the continuity, then I'm going to go ahead and say it:  The disruption the introduction of "magic" has caused, the disagreements its given rise to, and the lack of receptivity to M7 by many Macross fans points to one thing: Very Bad Storytelling.

Aristotle once said horses bear eggs of flies inside them, since he has always seen a swarm of flies over a dead horse and he wondered where it came from.

Thinking of the horse as a Macross series, and of the flies as dissatisfied fans, I find it rash judging immediatly the horse itself bore the seeds of Very Bad Storytelling.

We have fans who complain mecha VS mecha is dull, and we have fans who complain mecha VS alien is dull.

Some fans will complain if you remove music from Macross, some fans will complain if you expand its role.

Some fans complain characters didn't change after 3 OVAs and author changed after 20 years.

We have even some fans who complain because the main star were the Valkyries and not the Destroids.

Fandom is a whiny bitch who will complain about everything. You can expect it.

Maybe the things fandom would complain less are unlimited power beyond everything else and thousands of deaths, but I won't bet my money on that.

Anyway, there is one important thing we all should remember: Kawamori thought his public as being Japanese. The disagreement fans can have here doesn't really prove the show is bad. The number of dissatisfied fans doesn't matter. Macross 7 in Japan was succesful, so maybe Kawamori thought he could did the things he did. He knew something we don't.

He is like the best Japanese cook of the world who gives you his best natto dish

But we wouldn't want to accuse Kawamori of that, now, do we?  I'd rather just believe he needed a change of pace, wanted to cash in on flashy, Jpopy, mushy-love-magic commercialism, and dug out some old ideas he had brewing but cut out or was never really commited on... and added heapings of new ones.

The key phrase of Macross Zero actually seems to be "You have a kadun attached to you that believes only what it sees". I've heard the meaning of Arjuna was that everything has a spirit in it. What you can find in Macross Zero is more dued to Arjuna than to an extraordinary love for Macross 7.

FV

[treatment]

So, at the end, Macross Zero is losing not because it's bad in itself, it's losing simply because of a formula. Sad but true.

FV

errr, it's "losing" coz the episodes don't come out quickly enuff.

Edited April 7, 2004 by treatment

[Sundown]

Macross 7 in Japan was succesful, so maybe Kawamori thought he could did the things he did. He knew something we don't.

He is like the best Japanese cook of the world who gives you his best natto dish

Commercial success really has little to do with good story telling or quality. I'm not accusing M7 of bad story telling in and of itself, but it certainly screws up the continuity some as a whole, storywise... not to mention retconning past works and making them sillier than they were.

*points at SW prequels.* What sells well isn't always what tells well.

He's more like a cook who serves an extraordinary natto, then follows it up with a cheeseburger drenched in Teriyaki sauce, that while vaguely enjoyable by some in its own right, and sickening to others, clashes with the meal overall. But said cook doesn't care that much about the meal in whole, having said so himself. =)

The key phrase of Macross Zero actually seems to be "You have a kadun attached to you that believes only what it sees". I've heard the meaning of Arjuna was that everything has a spirit in it. What you can find in Macross Zero is more dued to Arjuna than to an extraordinary love for Macross 7.

A storyteller manipulates beliefs by controlling what's seen and what isn't. The emotions he evicts is tied directly to what he presents. Only Bad Storytellers rely upon some inherent, nebulous spirit in their work that's not obvious to the audience they're writing for.

Aristotle once said horses bear eggs of flies inside them, since he has always seen a swarm of flies over a dead horse and he wondered where it came from.

Thinking of the horse as a Macross series, and of the flies as dissatisfied fans, I find it rash judging immediatly the horse itself bore the seeds of Very Bad Storytelling.

That analogy doesn't exactly fly (no pun intended). It basically suggests that fans who disagree on magic ever being foundational in Macross SDF are simply erroneous and foolish... that their conclusions are due to lack of research and lack of study. That conclusion is even more rash, and not particular flattering.

But we're not dealing with horses. We're not dealing with flies. We're not dealing with Aristotle and his lack of microscope and his being unfamiliar with biology. We're dealing with a work of fiction in which the creator decided to change total gears 15 years after its creation. If such a change had been intended from the start, then it is indeed Very Bad Storytelling.

This is akin to having God decide that the Circle of Life would be a central theme to Creation--- then dictating that flies would only ever be seen on dead horses-- vieling all observable evidence that the themselves lay eggs and have a life cycle that extends elsewhere, so that no dedicated researcher of truth could ever discern that horses aren't born with fly eggs intact.

If this is the reason why Aristotle came to his conclusions, then one might say that he was very much mislead and deceived. And if was the case, you might accuse said Creator of Very Bad Storytelling. He certainly failed-- and indeed actively worked-- against the point he deemed so entirely important, against something he intended to be central to creation from the get go. And the blame for such misinterpretation falls solely on the creator himself.

And to beat the analogy to death, unlike the horse and its flies, no matter how closely and for how long you look... no matter what tools you develop and what pools of knowledge you accumulate-- no amount of research, observation or analysis can discern that magic is a central tenet to SDF.

The only thing that's ever been found as "evidence" is the aforementioned 10 second stretch of throwaway dialogue, which isn't particularly convincing except for those already inclined to believe what they do about that little snippit.

Oh, you're preaching to the choir about the Star Wars prequels and the Matrix sequels. Vader as an annoying kid... then as an annoying teen... baaad. =D

-Al

Edited April 7, 2004 by Sundown

[Radd]

I'm not accusing M7 of bad story telling in and of itself, but it certainly screws up the continuity some as a whole, storywise... not to mention retconning past works and making them sillier than they were.

Retconning? Well, sorta, in further attempting to merge DYRL? and tv series continuity, but making the past events sillier than they were? Not really that I could see.

Other than that, I agree that what does well financially isn't always the geatest example of storytelling. There's plenty of box office hits that are just plain crap.

And I won't beat your dead horse too much more, guys, I've had my say on 'spiritua' and it's place in the Macross universe, and that is what I got out of the show, on my own, as watching it.

So I guess it goes to say, what about those that observe the horse, and the flies, and realize where the flies really come from and why they're hanging around the horse? Even though they saw the same thing as everyone else, they figured out what's really going on. What about those people that disagreed with Aristotle but nobody listened to?

[Aegis!]

There's also the vague possibility that this "expansion" isn't handled well, doesn't bring to the table anything that matches up in *quality* to the original-- and that the creator dropped the ball.

I do agree with what you said about Matrix and Star Wars

But Macross Zero is more slightly tied to the other works of the same fictional universe.

Matrix mantained the same characters, and I can't say they were really ruined in the sequels; they added mostly useless characters, and some character like the French at least was funny although he did nothing in the final. What showed signs of decay was the fact agents weren't badasses anymore, since anyone was willing to fight against them and could manage to survive. It was how they story was wrapped in Revolutions what really turned the sequels into a crap.

Star Wars also mantained as many old characters as it could. Qui-Gon Jinn was nobody, Darth Maul too. People cared for the emperor, Obi-Wan, Anakyn, Yoda, Boba-Fett... and indeed they ruined one of the best villain ever showing him as that kid. They didn't stop at that, but from the beginning they turned battles into slapstick farces. The story itself... well, events are going in the direction they should, it's just they chose ludicrous plot devices and character development to make them going.

Macross Zero of the old show can ruin only Focker, and I don't feel it's doing it, aside from drawing differently. No inexperienced and bungler guy has still saved the day, so battles are safe, too. The only thing added was a person who the show insisted in showing she was born special, and what she has done so far is still insignificant. It's obvious she will do more things later, but I think this is a proper introduction which laid some limits, and in itself, unlike Macross 7, it doesn't have any relevance for events happened in the original series. The story of Macross Zero itself doesn't have connections with the story of SDF, as it seems it could be a bridge for something which is following Macross 7.

It's always fun to explain why folks might feel a certain way about a certain work, pinning human nature, tendencies, or motives on them that shed light on their perceptions. But I do find that looking at the work itself is usually a better indicator of why it gets lukewarm reception or wild fanfare.

But it's only when you've watched it you start talking about why it was received that way

Hearing people talking about a thing without really having seen it first can sometimes leads to a will of disagree with those people once you've seen the thing

About why a person perceives a thing in a way, it's too difficult to say, especially if you want do discern whether it was a matter of the show or of the person. I myself have rewatched something and discovered it was different from what I remembered.

Once I was seeing Evangelion with my cousin. It was the first time he saw the episode, and he kept asking what was happening and why. I thought it was obvious what was happening (weird things because of an angel's attack), and if it wasn't clear you should have just waited until something would have revealed it to you.

James Hudnall wrote the reason why people find something boring is because there is too much neutral. There should be a shift in polarity between a scene and the other, a positive scene (a character doing fine) should turn into a negative, and a negative one can even turn into a more negative one. This shift of polarity marks the impact the story is having on characters. In a good show the shift should became bigger each time, until the climax.

I don't buy the lack of development many claim. It's just that some people don't think the story is having too much impact on the characters so far, so they don't see the way they are changed, too. Obviously, when you don't like a thing you aren't pushed examining it further, and maybe you can even miss some details, resulting in that you don't understand later things and so you dislike the show even more.

In Macross Plus the lead's goals were clear from the beginning: winning the project and Myung. These grails were contended by an apt villain, and the way the grails came closer or further to the lead marked the progress in the story and what is called growth in the characters.

In Macross Zero the lead didn't have clear grails so far. It has been a mix of survival, both own and others', pride of being an ace, and the AFOS' head. Getting the girl is a separate matter.

So, at the end, Macross Zero is losing not because it's bad in itself, it's losing simply because of a formula. Sad but true.

FV

This pretty much resumes it all.

totally agree , even in the part where M0 failed to follow the formula from the beginning

[J A Dare]

You got to remember folks, Macross is first and foremost made for a Japanese audience. AFAIK, spirituality/mysticism is deeply rooted in Japanese society and psyche. A year ago, I had the fortunate experience to spend New Years in Kyoto. I went to a shrine that eve with a group of Japanese friends I made there. It was an amazing experience, nothing like how Western societies celebrate it. Love, music, spirita, magic, it doesn't surprise me Kawamori has/is using these elements.

[Sundown]

Retconning? Well, sorta, in further attempting to merge DYRL? and tv series continuity, but making the past events sillier than they were? Not really that I could see.

Only sillier in the fact that Minmei's effectiveness and the culture shock stuff was really only an outpouring of spiritia, if SDF were to be explained in M7 terms. It works much better if it isn't, IMO.

So I guess it goes to say, what about those that observe the horse, and the flies, and realize where the flies really come from and why they're hanging around the horse? Even though they saw the same thing as everyone else, they figured out what's really going on. What about those people that disagreed with Aristotle but nobody listened to?

I suppose you're alluding to the few fans that actually "get it", and that see the originally intended presence of the mystical in SDF. Except that in this strained analogy, there wouldn't have *been* any that disagreed with Aristotle or figured out what's "really going on". There wouldn't be enough evidence-- no matter how hard you looked, and how long it took-- to formulate a more accurate theory, and whatever hypothesis they made would have been one made purely of whimsy. Ie.: Someone who heard Exedore's speech before M7's release, and concluded that "a quantifiable mystic life force" was the foundation of love, the universe, the Minmei attack... would have been righteously scoffed at as daffy.

Actually, that lone scrap of evidence *still* remains unconvincing even in hindsight... which is why this debate exists.

-Al

Edited April 7, 2004 by Sundown

[Radd]

Retconning? Well, sorta, in further attempting to merge DYRL? and tv series continuity, but making the past events sillier than they were? Not really that I could see.

Only sillier in the fact that Minmei's effectiveness and the culture shock stuff was really only an outpouring of spiritia, if SDF were to be explained in M7 terms. It works much better if it isn't, IMO.

So I guess it goes to say, what about those that observe the horse, and the flies, and realize where the flies really come from and why they're hanging around the horse? Even though they saw the same thing as everyone else, they figured out what's really going on. What about those people that disagreed with Aristotle but nobody listened to?

I suppose you're alluding to the few fans that actually "get it", and that see the originally intended presence of the mystical in SDF. Except that in this strained analogy, there wouldn't have *been* any that disagreed with Aristotle or figured out what's "really going on". There wouldn't be enough evidence-- no matter how hard you looked, and how long it took-- to formulate a more accurate theory, and whatever hypothesis they made would have been one made purely of whimsy. Ie.: Someone who heard Exedore's speech before M7's release, and concluded that "a quantifiable mystic life force" was the foundation of love, the universe, the Minmei attack... would have been righteously scoffed at as daffy.

Actually, that lone scrap of evidence *still* remains unconvincing even in hindsight... which is why this debate exists.

-Al

I'm afraid my post make the most sense when you read my previous post. It seems to me that M7 did not retcon how Minmay effected the Zentradi, it's all in how you define spirtua. I'll say again that I don't feel there's anything magical about it, no more so than someone laughing at a joke, or appreciating a piece of art. I've covered that already.

As for the second part, again, my previous post covers my feelings on that topic, but in short. no, you misunderstand.

[imode]

You got to remember folks, Macross is first and foremost made for a Japanese audience. AFAIK, spirituality/mysticism is deeply rooted in Japanese society and psyche. A year ago, I had the fortunate experience to spend New Years in Kyoto. I went to a shrine that eve with a group of Japanese friends I made there. It was an amazing experience, nothing like how Western societies celebrate it. Love, music, spirita, magic, it doesn't surprise me Kawamori has/is using these elements.

Americans went through the same things in the 60's.

[Brewtal]

Zero ain't my coup of tea. Slow plot development, boring characters, ugly animation (yeah that's right i hate cg!) I really don't think kawamori was moving forward with this, infact i think he was taking a step backward into M+ territory almost. This had so much potential and yet Kawamori blew it in almost every way possible. To me the only redeeming aspect of this show is some of the mecha, but even then they are diminished by horrid cg work.

With kawamori making absolute crap shows the last couple of years i'd almost wish the guy would just make video games or something.

Of course this is all opinnion, and i respect everyone elses.

[RichterX]

The only thing that bothers me of Macross Zero is the VF-0, it has 3 differents variants an also accessories (the armored variant), is it still supposed to be a prototype? or is already an standard mass produced model? I wonder how many Zeros were created and if they were all rebuilded as a VF-1 after the test period ended.

[Radd]

The only thing that bothers me of Macross Zero is the VF-0, it has 3 differents variants an also accessories (the armored variant), is it still supposed to be a prototype?  or is already an standard mass produced model?  I wonder how many Zeros were created and if they were all rebuilded as a VF-1 after the test period ended.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../vf0/index.html

Yet again, the Compendium brings us our answers! How can this be? For Egan is the Kwisatz Haderach!

[Sundown]

I'm afraid my post make the most sense when you read my previous post. It seems to me that M7 did not retcon how Minmay effected the Zentradi, it's all in how you define spirtua. I'll say again that I don't feel there's anything magical about it, no more so than someone laughing at a joke, or appreciating a piece of art. I've covered that already.

It very much retconns *why* she effected the Zentradi. There's a big difference between:

"culture shock and the power of love and music-- as the forces we know them to be",

and "culture shock, the power of "love" and "music", which are really just mediums of this all power essence know as 'anima spiritia' ".

It taints the original plot hook by giving it a mystical metaphysical bent, based on a made up magical force that supposedly governs life, love, the universe and everything. Some dig this bent. Others find it silly. You might not call this "force" magic, but it doesn't change how the concept is unappealing to many. Using a "force" that doesn't exist to explain the forces that do smells of the mystical, and that's what tweaks a many fan.

It simply lies in the fact that I prefer not to have the raw power of music and love be boiled down to and explained as some quantifiable life energy. Call it magic, or don't call it magic. It still changes the whole tone and bent of the original series (to me anyway), if you interpret it in M7's light.

As for the second part, again, my previous post covers my feelings on that topic, but in short. no, you misunderstand.

I'm not sure I exactly misunderstand, as I simply don't know what you're suggesting with your take on the analogy. And if you're postulating that magic exists foundationally in Macross SDF, even though it doesn't *appear to* at first, second, or fifth glance to most (even more so before M7's injection of anima spiritia into the continuity), I don't misunderstand. I simply disagree.

-Al

Edited April 9, 2004 by Sundown

[The6ftTallAZN]

I still didn't see it yet... :::hangs head in shame:::

[Panon]

I'm not sure I exactly misunderstand, as I simply don't know what you're suggesting with your take on the analogy. And if you're postulating that magic exists foundationally in Macross SDF, even though it doesn't *appear to* at first, second, or fifth glance to most (even more so before M7's injection of anima spiritia into the continuity), I don't misunderstand. I simply disagree.

You misunderstand because he's saying the opposite of what you think he's saying.

"Magic" has no place in SDF Macross and Macross 7 does not retcon Minmei or what she did in SDF Macross, at all.

[azrael]

Yet again, the Compendium brings us our answers! How can this be? For Egan is the Kwisatz Haderach!

Don't you know? People don't read the Compendium.

[LePoseur]

There's a big difference between:

"culture shock and the power of love and music-- as the forces we know them to be",

and "culture shock, the power of "love" and "music", which are really just mediums of this all power essence know as 'anima spiritia' ".

It taints the original plot hook by giving it a mystical metaphysical bent, based on a made up magical force that supposedly governs life, love, the universe and everything.  Some dig this bent.  Others find it silly.

Wow... I never thought Basara's influence had anything to do with love, at least in the hippy "Peace & Love" way. For me it was always about will and the ability to directly express one's self free of clutter, like speech, that can delude it's message.

Really though, is the concept of souls any easier to believe? Yet most people believe that. I can't explain either one, but I really feel that music can touch the soul, and that's what I was going on about above. I never thought to consider spiritua to be "a made up magical force that supposedly governs life, love, the universe and everything," just each sentient being's life-force, will or soul (whatever you want to call it). I guess that's the difference.

So, our individual experiences caused us to view a vague concept in two different ways. I wouldn't say that that vagueness is necessarily bad storytelling either (after all, look at all the people who got on Lucas after he tried to explain the Force in detail). I think Mac 7 does suffer from bad storytelling in many places, but not the main theme, and besides, it's a cartoon not Shakespeare, so what do you expect. I guess, we each brought different things to the table as we viewed it that shaped our opinions, that's all. But in the end, I don't care if other people choose to think Mac 7 is the stupidest thing on the planet, just like I don't care what shoes they choose to wear. I'm a little sad that it didn't bring them the same joy it did me, but hey, them's there's the breaks.

As for Mac 0, I'd prefer a series instead, hell, even a movie. OVA's generally suck for just about anything other than eye-candy, (kind of the profit influenced nature of the beast I guess) and I don't really care for the CGI valks.

Edited April 9, 2004 by LePoseur

[Sundown]

You misunderstand because he's saying the opposite of what you think he's saying.

"Magic" has no place in SDF Macross and Macross 7 does not retcon Minmei or what she did in SDF Macross, at all.

It doesn't retcon Minmei *only* if you consciously disgregard what Macross 7 says of Minmei, and only if you totally ignore the concept of spiritia and its relation to music-- despite the fact that spirita and its direct relation to music is now engrained into the continuity. This is the approach I take, in order to be able to still enjoy SDF as it was originally meant to be. But if one's to take Mac 7 with any seriousness, and to relate the way it defines music and its effects, then reinterpreting Macross SDF naturally ensues. But then again, I doubt Kawamori really thought that far.

Really though, is the concept of souls any easier to believe? Yet most people believe that. I can't explain either one, but I really feel that music can touch the soul, and that's what I was going on about above. I never thought to consider spiritua to be "a made up magical force that supposedly governs life, love, the universe and everything," just each sentient being's life-force, will or soul (whatever you want to call it). I guess that's the difference.

So, our individual experiences caused us to view a vague concept in two different ways. I wouldn't say that that vagueness is necessarily bad storytelling either (after all, look at all the people who got on Lucas after he tried to explain the Force in detail).

I'd venture that Kawamori was also *too specific*-- precisely in the way Lucas cornied up the force, when it came to the idea of music and anima spiritia.

The moment "spiritia" turned hard to accept was the moment where it became concretely tied with music and its effects, and the moment it became quantifiable, measurable, collectable, and able to be blasted through giant space speakers. That's not some nebulous, philosophical "soul" or "life force" we're aware of, that remains highly intangible, tenuous, and up for individual interpretation. That's magic, collectable in a bottle.

If we rename spiritia to "soul" or "life-force", it doesn't change the fact that having souls sucked and harvested by a beam, having soul energy quantifiable on a meter, and having souls blasted through booby speaker pods is any less, well, silly. =)

-Al

[the white drew carey]

I just watched all three episodes thus far, and I must say:

Damn, this is really good!

The story telling is great, the cinematography is top-notch and it's simply exciting.

I can't wait for more!