Macross Zero

[Stamen0083]

I love Macross Zero because of the wesome action sequences and mechanical designs.

It lacks character development? Definitely. While I want character development in a series as much as the next guy, I don't want it from a Macross series. I didn't get into Macross because of the characters. Call me shallow, but I simply don't want to get attached to these characters.

So with no characters, what I'm left with are pretty planes fighting in the sky. Without such, the Macross-named series becomes utter crap to me.

Besides, giant aliens in a mecha series is bad enough, but giant humanoid aliens that are crippled by a singing chick sounds worse than stupid for me. Such things certainly bring down the real level of the "real mecha" series quite a few notches.

So I ignore the floating rocks in Macross Zero and enjoy the fighting sequences. Nothing I have seen have been so exciting, save the five or so minutes of Gundam Evolve 4, where the Dendrobium unleashed hell on a fleet of Gelgoog Marines.

[azrael]

I think the lack of character development in M0 (there is a little, mostly with Shin and probably with Sara coming soon) can be attributed to the fact that the time frame of the series is quite short. M+'s time span went for 3 months. M7's timespan went for more than a year, infact, almost 3. M0's time span? Well...I'd give it about a month of work. The way the episodes are strung together, there is no time lapse. The next episode picks up right where the last one left off. There's no gap. And you know the old saying, you can't expect someone to change overnight.

[KingNor]

re: Macross Plus "magic"

"Magic", my ass.

There is NO "MAGIC" in Macross Plus.

Sharon was an Artificial Intelligence. Her normal functionality was enhanced with a rogue and dangerous man-made self-preservation system addition.

That's it.

Calling that "magic" is extremely stupid.

re: Macross Zero

I like it alot. The mysticism-angle in Zero was good. It was not corny. It was old-world culture (mayan) vs new-world culture (un/anti-un).

Can't wait for the remaining episodes.

The only thing I don't like about Zero are the upcoming Zero 1/100 scale toys. Why the heck didn't they do it in 1/48 scale instead? *sigh*

um... huh?

mac plus had hypnotic undertones to sharon apples computerized music. i never said it was magical, its more like a computer program designed to hack into a persons mind.

i NEVER said there was magic in mac plus, btw, i like mac plus (what the heck are you talking about anyway?)

and as for mac zero.... that IS magic music, and the machines some how come alive when the girls sings, and stuff float and junk like that. floating rocks, not my thing.

couple that with lame mecha (imo) lame characters (imo) what I consider 'not good, and corny mysticism' (imo again), giant robots fighting giant robots (lame imo) and it becomes a show i don't paticularly care for.

it has nothing to do with who wrote it. who wrote the music, or the slow rate of episodes being released, i simply don't like it for what it is. I am not wrong to dislike it anymore than you are not wrong to like it. we can have varying opinions.

the topic of this thread is "is anyone else haveing trouble getting into this show"

my answer is yes. ALOT of trouble.

[KingNor]

Besides, giant aliens in a mecha series is bad enough, but giant humanoid aliens that are crippled by a singing chick sounds worse than stupid for me. Such things certainly bring down the real level of the "real mecha" series quite a few notches.

imagine you are a fighter pilot in the US navy, and imagine that you are flying a sorty against some enemy country.

now.. if that enemy army was able to invade your comm system and play videos of hard core porn or some other kind of shocking/distracting imagry or sound, you woudlnt' find it hard to fight under those conditions?

i find cultrual shock more beleivable than machines that come to life due to glowing rocks and singing "special magic tunes" space gods and "bird man, fish man" crap that's never ever mentioned in later shows. (maybe i'm wrong havn't seen the show in a while)

[Final Vegeta]

The main gift of Kawamori is symmetry. You start with spears (love declaration) made imagining mixing the ocean and the wind, then there is the myth of bird-men and fish-men and you end up with pilot Shin and swimmer Mao.

The bird-men theirselves were a technologic race which upset with genetic engineering (a virus, transmitted maybe by blood contact like HIV) a primitive race, the fish-men. It's kinda like what is happening in the present of storytime with UN-Spacy upsetting Mayans' style of life (and this involved blood drawings and transfusions).

Anyway, Shin, a kind of male principle, is identified as the element of the sky and the wind, while Mao, a kind of female principle, is identified as the element of the ocean and the water. You know, ancients considered sky as another type of water.

Shin getting closer to Mao is reinforced by the imagery of swimming birds and flying fishes. You end with an image of two touching worlds so similar and yet so different, not connected and yet longing to lap and comprehend each other, which is an ultimate metaphor for the love between a man and a woman. It's not a chance what mixes together the sky and the ocean is a spear.

This absolute poetry of simmetries, metaphors and leitmotivs is what I call "Kawamori 100%". The whole intensity of it int the scene was breath-taking.

Macross Plus was the Macross of technology.

Macross 7 was the Macross of songs.

Macross Zero will be the Macross of love. You may not think it, but it will be that way. This is enforced even by Shin's training, as he must learn to feel his opponent's heart.

And it's not like the simmetries end up there. The underwater trip of Shin becomes learning ground for the subsequent action scene. The octopus shows the way Valkyries are thought: like Guld said before first transforming, "Now I'll show YF-21's true abilities".

Then there is the scene where Roy tells Shin that pilots who stare at the sea at night will end up swallowed by it. Yeah, I know it's the worst animation of Macross Zero, but Shin actually did get swallowed by the sea, and maybe it won't be the last time.

I really like the characters. I think it's unusual for anime this kind of lead character which always lose in the start. Maybe it has to do with the fact that if you don't know how to think story in advance good guys must always win at the end of each episode. But Shin's defeats are really funny, he came from a place where he was the top and now everytime he must swallows his pride. And yet he still has some bite, it's not like he is really helpless.

He started depressed and someway nichilistic, but he is growing lifelike. It seems a kind of Kawamori's remark on today situation. Macross Zero shows shots of terrorism, after all. Shin knows he must do something, even if he don't know what to do. Yet he doesn't need to be always sombre and he has to gain a positive attitude to change things.

Then there is his relation with Sara. He may like her, but it's not like he agrees on all Sara says. There is a lot of conflict involved in how they grow apart, without Shin wanting it. As a Macross series, Macross Zero seems to question cultural invasion, like Macross Plus questioned songs and technology.

The real thing I regret is that up until now there haven't been much on Ivanov. It's not like he was the main villain (this is Nora), but the last OVA seemed to set up something which I hope will be well exploited. As for pacing and direction I found everything else pratically perfect, a sign that Kawamori is great even without 2/3 years of preproduction, although that helps with the script.

As for explanations, I think there is a chance they will be done anime-style, that is to say, you guess it. But over-all I consider them minor, and we know a man that can clarify minor trifles in his FAQ.

I like the mecha and the CG. As for the CG, I think it would be better if it was CG all time but I understand production costraints, and I actually think cel animation could have been better, yet VF-0's transformation scene shows that Kawamori indeed knows with CG you can't surprise people just by moving objects like with cel animation.

As for the mecha, I too actually think SV-51 is kinda ugly fugly, yet I found it cool in the show. What I think as attractive in a mecha are the proportions. A mecha should not have perfectly scaled human proportions, it's not like mechas are humans, so they shouldn't try too much to imitate that. Just don't exagerate the other way and make them look as freaks. The YF-19 is an example, it has big legs and short torso. It is my fav Valkyrie, and it's being tied by the VF-0D Shin type. Anyway, I like even the way VF-0's transformation is subtly different from that of the VF-1. Maybe this wasn't fully justified, but I like it.

There is many talking about VF-0 looking more advanced than the VF-1 (it is just looking, not being more advanced. Minus the engines, they are actually equally advanced). This is kinda like a newbie question. Kawamori himself stated that he tried to draw something which looked retro, but he ended up with a plain F-14 which wouldn't have worked as main mecha. So he took the opposite approach, and draw something which looked futuristic, the same way concept cars look more advanced than market cars. It is just because they are prototypes. He did it on purpose, with a kind of justification. Anyway, remember that only absent-minded don't watch appearences, but only superficial don't go further.

Then there is the question of magic. Is this word really such lame? Cheap plot devices and deus ex machina are lame, not sense of wonder inducing scenes like in Macross Zero. The trouble is the source, many people didn't understand Macross 7 itself. Chiba explained the source of Basara's power as vibrations born trough the chakras of his body while he sings, so spiritia is simply a wave (like radio waves) which is added to normal sound waves. You may think of it something on the line of gravitrons, noone has found them yet gravity works, and if you go inside a cave or a gallery you will feel the mass of the mountain over your head. The same way you can think of spiritions, which are the tiny bright green spots, and the effects a song can have (even basic, like cheering up when you're afraid).

This is not to say spiritia science exists, but saying it's magic is like saying a submarine can swim. Furthermore, it seems what happened in Macross Zero was dued to AFOS and hidden ancient technology whose limits are still unknown, and evidently more than just making faster planes or building better humans than you.

Since this thread talks also about fans, I''ll say I sincerely despise the fan's attitude of neglected sons, the kind of people who, when they like a show, the only thing they want is the same show just bigger, and then they want the same show again, just bigger than the last time, and with twice the guns.

Whether a person likes Macross Zero or not it's up to him, and I can agree it's not totally perfect, but bashing it without being objective is ridicolous.

FV

[Sumdumgai]

I like M0. It's cool. I just take it as a different aspect of Macross.

Although Mao's little trick in my avatar is a really Japanese thing.

[Max Jenius]

Although Mao's little trick in my avatar is a really Japanese thing.

"1000 years of pain"

[CoryHolmes]

and as for mac zero.... that IS magic music, and the machines some how come alive when the girls sings, and stuff float and junk like that. floating rocks, not my thing.

couple that with lame mecha (imo) lame characters (imo) what I consider 'not good, and corny mysticism' (imo again), giant robots fighting giant robots (lame imo) and it becomes a show i don't paticularly care for.

it has nothing to do with who wrote it. who wrote the music, or the slow rate of episodes being released, i simply don't like it for what it is. I am not wrong to dislike it anymore than you are not wrong to like it. we can have varying opinions.

the topic of this thread is "is anyone else haveing trouble getting into this show"

my answer is yes. ALOT of trouble.

All your points are so very, very true.

[Lezt]

seed = 0080,

X = wing,

WRONG on BOTH counts.

well X and wing are a bit far fetch but 0080 and Seed, i am sure on that

kira same as amuro finds a gundam and pilots it

both series havea crew of kids in the warships

same battle sequence, escape form coloney (side 7 and one of orb's) then space chace, then land in desert, then to sea and back to space,

design of strike and gundam are very similar

the final enemy superweapon is the same ( gigantic gamma ray in Seed and Solar ray in 0080)

and same too, solar ray destroys first assault fleet, and gamma ray destroy first assault fleet.

the idea of new type and coordinators?

masked enemy? (char and clone guy)

the ohysical story is the same, however the people part is not. but then gundam is a mecha anime so it is relitively the same.

[Aegis!]

You know what ? to hell with Macross Zero , we all agree it´s an utter piece of crap.

In fact , to hell with Macross altogether.

Since we´ll be getting a new series in less than a year , with the same plot as SDF Macross once again we should just boycot this crap that is M0 and all other varied series.

There , are you happy ?

If you want Character development then by all means don´t watch something that´s only 5 episodes long. If you want a long spanning plot then don´t watch a 5 episode OVA.

Just why don´t you go back to your M7 bashing threads and make yourselves happy ? It looks as if you´ve found a new hobby on bashing M0 since the minute people stopped making M7 threads and you could no longer ruin those threads , and since M+ and SDF Macross are entirely perfect you find yourselves unable to bitch about those cause all the community would go after you. That´s just lame.

I know I´ll get a fair share of crap coming my way cause of this but some people´s attitude is just lame , I could understand this sort of crap when talking about crap like M7 or MII but when we finally get a decent series those who were left with nothing to complain start to find really absurd reasons (except character development) to critize a new project.

And just to piss people off I simply will not read your responses or enter this thread again

So whatever you have to say about this I won´t even bother reading it

Edited April 5, 2004 by Aegis!

[Stamen0083]

well X and wing are a bit far fetch but 0080 and Seed, i am sure on that

kira same as amuro finds a gundam and pilots it

both series havea crew of kids in the warships

[blah blah blah]

Well, you're STILL wrong.

That's not Gundam 0080 you're describing.

Everyone knows SEED was a retelling of 0079, so there should be no surprise that there are quite a considerable number of similarities between the two. You have quite a knack for the obvious though. Bravo. If only now you'd get the names of the series right.

[bandit29]

You know what ? to hell with Macross Zero , we all agree it´s an utter piece of crap.

In fact , to hell with Macross altogether.

Since we´ll be getting a new series in less than a year , with the same plot as SDF Macross once again we should just boycot this crap that is M0 and all other varied series.

There , are you happy ?

If you want Character development then by all means don´t watch something that´s only 5 episodes long. If you want a long spanning plot then don´t watch a 5 episode OVA.

Just why don´t you go back to your M7 bashing threads and make yourselves happy ? It looks as if you´ve found a new hobby on bashing M0 since the minute people stopped making M7 threads and you could no longer ruin those threads , and since M+ and SDF Macross are entirely perfect you find yourselves unable to bitch about those cause all the community would go after you. That´s just lame.

I know I´ll get a fair share of crap coming my way cause of this but some people´s attitude is just lame , I could understand this sort of crap when talking about crap like M7 or MII but when we finally get a decent series those who were left with nothing to complain start to find really absurd reasons (except character development) to critize a new project.

And just to piss people off I simply will not read your responses or enter this thread again

So whatever you have to say about this I won´t even bother reading it

You're such a drama queen. So some of us don't like Macross Zero as much as you do. Get over it, fanboy.

[Keith]

Besides, giant aliens in a mecha series is bad enough, but giant humanoid aliens that are crippled by a singing chick sounds worse than stupid for me. Such things certainly bring down the real level of the "real mecha" series quite a few notches.

imagine you are a fighter pilot in the US navy, and imagine that you are flying a sorty against some enemy country.

now.. if that enemy army was able to invade your comm system and play videos of hard core porn or some other kind of shocking/distracting imagry or sound, you woudlnt' find it hard to fight under those conditions?

i find cultrual shock more beleivable than machines that come to life due to glowing rocks and singing "special magic tunes" space gods and "bird man, fish man" crap that's never ever mentioned in later shows. (maybe i'm wrong havn't seen the show in a while)

Culture shock didn't win the war in the TV series, if they had used that alone, the Bodolza fleet still would have mopped the floor with Earth. It was the nuturing of the feelings invoked by that culture shock that brought down the Britai Adoclas fleet, & spurred it on to form a treaty with the Macross that won the war.

[J A Dare]

re: Macross Plus "magic"

"Magic", my ass.

There is NO "MAGIC" in Macross Plus.

Sharon was an Artificial Intelligence. Her normal functionality was enhanced with a rogue and dangerous man-made self-preservation system addition.

That's it. 

Calling that "magic" is extremely stupid.

I'll consider that an emotional response than an insult. Sorry, as a graduate student who studies AI/controls/mechatronics, everything that Sharon does (physical and psychological manipulation) cannot be explained, thus there is an element of "magic" if you will. But not "magic" in terms of voodoo mysticism, but rather in terms of unaccountable phenomenon. As I see it, combining the established AI-base system with the self preservation program and with all of Myung's mental past contributions ("anima spirita" or whatever you want to call it), Sharon manifested to more than just a sophisticated AI system. Whatever Kawamori & Co. were up to, they cloaked it under a blanket of technology. However, I do understand why people would rationalize it as all pure technology.

[Agent ONE]

So much emotion in this thread... I admire those who fight for their opinions on MZero, I don't know why I don't feel the need to defend it though.

I guess I am just secure in my opinion that it rules and those who dissagree with me are just little girly men crying because they miss their pansy ass little Basara and his girly song...

[Impreszive]

Wow. I didn't know the emotions were so strong on this show. Sorry for starting the topic.

[bsu legato]

I guess I am just secure in my opinion that it rules and those who dissagree with me are just little girly men crying because they miss their pansy ass little Basara and his girly song...

LOL! Surely Crom smiles upon you this day, Agent ONE.

[Anubis]

CROM Smiles at Macross Zero AND Macross 7

Except M7 Dynamite. He LAUGHS at that.

Edited April 5, 2004 by Anubis

[J A Dare]

Wow.  I didn't know the emotions were so strong on this show.  Sorry for starting the topic.

You shouldn't feel sorry. You should be enjoying this thread.

[mikeszekely]

To go along with what Aegis first said, I've noticed that there are a lot of people on these boards who like Macross but not it sequels, like the Matrix but not its sequels, like the original Star Wars trilogy but not the Special Editions or Episode I or II, etc. It's like once upon a time, they saw something that they thought was incredible, and now they love their originals and wish for more of the exact same, but any attempts to expand upon the originals are rejected. It's almost as if, as fans, we at some point have to make a decision to go all out with the original product that so captivated us and reject the sequels, or embrace the creator's overall vision and possibly be forced to rethink our ideas about the original. I'm not saying that either way is right, because everyone is indeed entitled to their own opinions, but they definately seem to be born out of different mentalities.

Now for me, I've basically liked all of the Kawamori's Macross series, and Zero is no exception. But what I liked in each series isn't always the same. I liked the characters and story from the original Macross, I liked the action and mecha in Plus, and I liked the mecha and story in 7.

For Zero, I think the complaints against the characters are valid, but you could complain about the characters in Plus almost as much, and people here still seem to like Plus. I also kind of dislike the mecha. I think the SV-51 is kind of interesting, but the VF-0, far from looking "more advanced" than the VF-1, looks like a VF-1 that was thrown together from spare parts.

What keeps me interested in Zero is the story. The "magic" doesn't bother me, but nor does it concern me. I am interested in the mysteries of Aiphos and the Protoculture, though. Each episode drops a few more hints... first there was something in the water, then they pulled it up, now there's another part in the water, and it's still active somehow. I admit, it's hard to watch a series when you only get to see thirty minutes every six months, and when I watch all five parts back to back, I may not like it as much. Everything could fall apart at the end. But for now, Zero has been one of those series that has me going, "and then what happens?"

[RTShark]

I was hoping Macross Zero would have some scenes that happen in space instead of it just being around the island the whole time. With just (presumably) only an hour left in Macross Zero, it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

Coming into this thread late so apologies for responding to such an early post in the topic...

Anyway... Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've picked up in Macross Zero is that the fighters are all using conventional jet engines, i.e., they need atmosphere to work. Unlike the reaction drive engines that the VF-1 uses...

Besides which... space battles are cool and all, but I'm liking the in atmosphere stuff in M0 just fine.

[Maluk]

For me, I just like the fight scenes in M0. It has more action than previous Macrosses.

[Nani?!]

To go along with what Aegis first said, I've noticed that there are a lot of people on these boards who like Macross but not it sequels, like the Matrix but not its sequels, like the original Star Wars trilogy but not the Special Editions or Episode I or II, etc. It's like once upon a time, they saw something that they thought was incredible, and now they love their originals and wish for more of the exact same, but any attempts to expand upon the originals are rejected. It's almost as if, as fans, we at some point have to make a decision to go all out with the original product that so captivated us and reject the sequels, or embrace the creator's overall vision and possibly be forced to rethink our ideas about the original. I'm not saying that either way is right, because everyone is indeed entitled to their own opinions, but they definately seem to be born out of different mentalities.

Agreed.

I think most people express their negative opinions outward while really liking the new OAV's (or many aspects of it) at the same time inside. There always be those fans who think the original is the greatest and nothing will ever come close. I guess we just have to accept it.

Macross plus was my favorite series of all macross (even over my childhood experience with SDF), but I think macross Zero is really showin me something. It might be just the fact that I had low expectations for it before I watched it but nevertheless, it's definitely holding up on it's own. The story reminds me of evangelion is some strange way, but I guess that's a good thing. My only hope is that it doesn't get too mystical or trippy like NGE in the end.

I can't wait for the final two episodes. It really bites that we have to wait so long for them to come out. but I guess it's worth it.

[Sumdumgai]

re: Macross Plus "magic"

"Magic", my ass.

There is NO "MAGIC" in Macross Plus.

Sharon was an Artificial Intelligence. Her normal functionality was enhanced with a rogue and dangerous man-made self-preservation system addition.

That's it. 

Calling that "magic" is extremely stupid.

I'll consider that an emotional response than an insult. Sorry, as a graduate student who studies AI/controls/mechatronics, everything that Sharon does (physical and psychological manipulation) cannot be explained, thus there is an element of "magic" if you will. But not "magic" in terms of voodoo mysticism, but rather in terms of unaccountable phenomenon. As I see it, combining the established AI-base system with the self preservation program and with all of Myung's mental past contributions ("anima spirita" or whatever you want to call it), Sharon manifested to more than just a sophisticated AI system. Whatever Kawamori & Co. were up to, they cloaked it under a blanket of technology. However, I do understand why people would rationalize it as all pure technology.

The biggest unexplained phenomena for me in M+ is how Isamu could have heard Myung's quiet singing to break him free of Sharon's "hypnosis". I'd call that "magic" if anything.

To support J A Dare here since I'm a psych student, the "hypnosis" thing Sharon does doesn't work in reality, because for hypnosis to work, the subject has to be willing to be hypnotised. So again, more unexplained phenomenon.

Flashing holographic porn images in a valk-pilot's cockpit might distract them into crashing, but the whole hypnosis thing doesn't fly.

pilot: "Hey! Miria's bu- OH CRAP!!!" (boom)

As for Macross Zero, it's a different approach from the previous incarnations; and I like the fact that Kawamori and co. take a different approach each time. And, heh, I like Mao as you can see. 'cause she's tricksy and crazy!!!

[CoryHolmes]

the "hypnosis" thing Sharon does doesn't work in reality

Nor do airplanes that become giant robots, giant humans that don't crush themselves under their own weight, artificial gravity on a spaceship...

[KingNor]

So much emotion in this thread... I admire those who fight for their opinions on MZero, I don't know why I don't feel the need to defend it though.

you don't need to defend you opinions, they're yours!

good for you.

many people feel the need to defend their opinions because of the perceived need to fit in.

"i like this, and i need to prove it's worth likeing, and make others like it, so i'm not alone in my choise, makeing me not weird, but NORMAL and right."

same goes for people who dislike something:

"if i dislike it, it must suck and i must prove its utter crappyness so i'm not alone in my distaste for something, makeing me the weird one."

As for Aiges:

I know I´ll get a fair share of crap coming my way cause of this but some people´s attitude is just lame , I could understand this sort of crap when talking about crap like M7 or MII but when we finally get a decent series those who were left with nothing to complain start to find really absurd reasons (except character development) to critize a new project.

SHAME on you, you're trying to guilt people that are talking bad about a serise, BY TALKING BAD ABOUT TWO OTHER SERISE's.

you expect people to be civil about MO when they don't like it, while you go bashing M7 and MII calling them crap.

you do realize the hippicrit[sp?] that makes you sound like.

some people , like me, don't consider MO to be decent. some people, unlike me, enjoy M7 and MII. you might want to take some of YOUR OWN WORDS to heart.

[Sumdumgai]

the "hypnosis" thing Sharon does doesn't work in reality

Nor do airplanes that become giant robots, giant humans that don't crush themselves under their own weight, artificial gravity on a spaceship...

They don't?!

I think I'll cry with this new information... Next you'll tell me there's no such thing as Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.

Max Jenius is a ninja though...

[Final Vegeta]

I really don't know where it comes from the whole conviction of lack of "growth" or "development".

I found interesting for writing (and judging) a story this guide: http://www.jameshudnall.com/write1.htm

I think there may be several philosophies and theories about the art of storytelling, and all methods of insights may have their strengths and limits, but I found that one honestly good.

For istance, it says the dimensions of a character are given by the number of his contradictions. And it says not all characters in a story can or must be three-dimensional. Only the main characters must necessarily be three-dimensional.

Example: Nakajima, the mechanician. He yelled Shin because he was ruining his engines yet he told Roy he was happy to see someone who could use his engines at fullest (shin lacked LOVE. As I stated in an earlier post, Macross Zero is about love). This is a contradiction, so that makes Nakajima at least a bidimensional character. He is secondary, so he doesn't need to be pushed further, but he isn't really flat.

The same for Nutuk the village elder, who knows of technology and modern civilization yet still relies on his myths to explain things. He is on the same level of Nakajima.

There is a comparison between Macross Plus and Macross Zero. Now, let's see the characters in order of importance and characterization:

PRIMARY

The Love Triangle:

-Guld hates Isamu, Guld and Isamu want Myung, Myung wants Isamu

-Mao hates Sara, Mao and Sara want Shin, Shin wants Sara

(we can reasonably suppose things will end up that way)

The Villain:

-At first there was Guld, in the last part Sharon showed up.

-Up until now there is Nora, but maybe later the AFOS will show up.

SECONDARY

The Scientist:

-Yang Neumann

-Aries Turner

The Military Chief:

-Col. Millard

-The guy at the ASCA didn't do nothing until now, you can replace him with Roy

TOTALLY SECONDARY

The Greedy Scientist:

-Marje

-Maybe Dr. Hasford will have greater relevance with flashbacks and the like; Sara and Aries are already influenced by him. Otherwise you can replace him with Ivanov as a generic role not really friendly to main characters.

The Partner:

-Lucy

-Edgar

(Said this way it may be humorous thinking of Shin and him as a couple, but I meant it as a generic acquaintance of the lead travelling with him for a while, despite not being the love of his life)

Others:

-Myung's friends (Kate and Morgan), whose only role was to show Myung as an unhappy spinster. Descardable characters over-all.

-Katy, the girl who kicked Shin's ass. The only one until now who has done it even literally. She showed up again in the third episode. She is meant to show girls can be strong too, and you don't need giving him a mecha to insert a character in the show.

What else? Higgins? Raymond (Redmond?)? Were there other characters in Macross Plus I can't remember?

Macross Zero has even Nakajima and Nutuk. I saw sketch design for a further character who should be introduced in the remaining OVAs.

From my point of view, Macross Plus and Macross Zero are quite alike in characters. Macross Zero has simply some more characters.

I think the advantage of Macross Plus is that Guld was both a main character (and stayed a main character of course) and the main villain until Sharon showed up. Guld was well characterized from the beginning since he was a main character, while Sharon's characterization entered the "active" phase only in the last part of the show. Before that there was simply the concert hall trial and some cameras pointing Isamu. In the meantime you've always had a characterized villain (Guld).

If you take the AFOS as the Sharon role, until now it just had a reaction to Shin in episode three, so it's really alike to Sharon. It's just that the hole between the supposed AFOS' active role (in the last part) and the beginning wasn't really filled by Nora. I think the show ended up involuntarily deceptive, in that is easy to think this show is Roy Fokker VS DD Ivanov, while they are both secondary characters in the background; the lack of examination thorough Ivanov so far really became a vital flaw, but then the story isn't ended yet.

About what can be called "growth", I don't see really that much differences between Macross Plus and Macross Zero either. Is the Shin of the third episode really the Shin of the first? And the same for Sara? And are they the same they were as children? Indeed they had a change, even if that wasn't meant to be the growth.

First of all, not all characters are required to "grow", only the lead. Considering the story as a premise to be proven (that is, to make a sense), there are two possible ways: either the protagonist listened to the premise from the beginning and he is rewarded at the end (let's say Macross 7), or the protagonist starts in opposition of the premise and he ends up liking it or adopting it (let's say Lilo & Stitch). I think the latter is found to be the most satisfying, since the protagonist is forced to change, that is to grow, which is something all seem to like.

Anyway, the growth must be a gradual process that takes the whole work (no less, no more), otherwise a quick turnaround will make a character looking like a wacko. Besides, you can't go on if you exhausted the sense of your story in the first chapter. What else can you really do?

For Macross Plus it was the same. The Movie, being the original story, makes more sense, since it was more centered on Myung. Myung is the character who really grows in Macross Plus. Indeed, Myung, Isamu and Guld are all fighting against virtuality. The show rapresented the limits of real experiences, like listening to a singer which doesn't have a heart, fighting with unmanned planes instead with pilots and believing memories which don't actually coincide with reality. It was Isamu's the key sentence of Macross Plus, "A hundred travel books aren't worth a real trip" (the OVAs still maked sense because of this), yet is Myung the character who doesn't adhere to Macross Plus' premise. In the end, living with Guld would have been somewhat negative, in that he was negating his memories and she was negating her real vocation, while Isamu was a positive force (although a jerk) that helped her regaining her singing and her independence.

As for Macross Zero, like I am nauseated to say again, the story isn't ended yet. Yet I see a climax building, so I have expectations. I just don't demand they ruin the storytelling carrying out the conclusion before the end.

FV

[Stamen0083]

Anyway... Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've picked up in Macross Zero is that the fighters are all using conventional jet engines, i.e., they need atmosphere to work. Unlike the reaction drive engines that the VF-1 uses...

Well, Edgar mentioned in Episode 3 that the VF-0 can in fact work in space, that's why the intake shutters were closed and they went diving.

[Final Vegeta]

the "hypnosis" thing Sharon does doesn't work in reality

Nor do airplanes that become giant robots, giant humans that don't crush themselves under their own weight, artificial gravity on a spaceship...

So yes, at the end all is just "willing suspension of disbelief". One more reason to stop talking about this magic nonsense.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

Well, Edgar mentioned in Episode 3 that the VF-0 can in fact work in space, that's why the intake shutters were closed and they went diving.

According to Compendium, the VF-1 itself was made in space. A Gundam in-joke.

2010

August

Surviving parts plants scattered around the space colonies and the Lunar surface's Apollo Base begin producing VF-1 Valkyries again.

FV

[Jasonc]

Macross + and M7 may have had tones of the same type (magic in a way), but nevertheless, they are very different. In Macross +, the events could be explained a lot simpler. The hypnotic music of Sharon Apple could be that as an AI form, she may know exactly what sounds or combination of them have the hypnotic effect you see in the end and thus, uses it for her benefit. the wires, strangely enough could be the electricity or even the EM waves (who knows with the technology of 2045. M0 has the "magic" aspect to it, but I think it is done very tastefully. I believe many here were expecting another SDF Macross series in 5 eps. and many expected the nostalgia of the old series. It's also hard not to referrence the times of now when all these issues are coming around that weren't so evident back in 1982. If you take the series at face value and try not to look too far into every nook and cranny of the series, you may actually enjoy it. I find it pretty interesting when I watch it like that and have too many questions when I try to analyze it.

[treatment]

It is preposterous to compare character development area betweeen Plus and Zero, since Plus had finished and Zero is still going on.

Iow, since Zero is still not finished, character development is in progress in Macross Zero.

Fwiw, here are the major character-developments in Zero so far, imho:

[*] Shin:

-- skills: from hothead ace F14-pilot to a grunting second-rate Valkyrie-pilot that's still adjusting to Zero's new multi-role combat capabilities and new combat tactics.

-- emotions: from typical arrogant angsty loner to a more worldly and sociable dude that realizes and acknowledges the inherent conflict between old-world culture (mayan superstitions, myths, lore and laws) and new-world culture (technology and medical benefits) and strives to bridge the two for Mayan sake. Still sorting out his feelings with Sara and at the same time realizing Mao's rather-inappropriate advances.

[*] Sara

-- deadset against technology and outsiders. Slowly accepting Shin as a man, but still has reservations and hostilities about everything that is not Mayan, including her mixed emotions with Shin.

[*] Mao

-- Established opposite viewpoint against Sara's Mayan-only viewpoint. Developed first crush on Shin and realized her sister Sara is a rival. Sibling-rivalry.

[Sundown]

Hey , I´m just pointing out WHY some people may not like it. I ain´t saying it´s bad not to like it.

Chill out man , no one is  trying to discriminate anyone like we were in some sort of Ku Klux Klan 

Formost , I don´t think Macross Zero is THE most incredibly awesome anime out there , but as far as other anime titles it´s certainly one of the most well acomplished OVA series out there as well as a great Macross series in itself.

I don't know if it's intentional, but your reasons on why other folks might not like M0 really do give a certain vibe-- that in your opinion, they should and would endear themselves to M0, if they weren't somehow constrained to their ways of thinking about it. And the reasons supplied tend to suggest that they're somehow not thinking right, with little validation that their lack of reception to M0 might actually be based on the series itself and their own personal tastes.

Now I can do the same and suggest that those who like M0 merely like it because it's Macross, and because they're easily satiated by flash, second-rate CG, tidbits of action, and because they don't need much in the way of character development or plot... I can provide similar "observations" and "reasons" to explain how someone might actually like M0, too. But I won't. =) Because highlighting these sorts of reasons isn't especially flattering to those I disagree with. And because I can concede that there might be a few things in M0 to like.

Just because folks like SDF and are lukewarm to M0 doesn't mean the they snub M0 because it's not SDF.

I donñt know if you have a continous habit of watching a variety of OVA series , but if you want really deep character development you should really watch TV series instead of M0 , in fact if you ain´t really used to watching OVA series and you´re watching Zero just because it´s macross then simply don´t watch it.

Macross Zero so far has less character development than most OVA's I've watched, M+ included. But it might not be a matter of "less" as much as it is a matter of execution, or me really not endearing myself to the Sara character that Shin largely interacts with. Primitive "technology is bad, electric lights are bad, radios are bad, git, you evil outsider" sorts really don't grab me as character archetypes. They kind of annoy. =)

Again I´m not saying in any way you´re some sort of idiot because you don´t like it , what I´ve said are just recommendation and simple observations as to why you don´t like it in contrast to my points on why I like it.

And your observations, which can read like attempts to explain away disagreement-- are mostly off base, here anyway. I personally don't hate M0. It's a bit of amusing fluff. But my feelings on it are based on its own merit more than they're based my expectations and fondness for SDF. I won't lie and say that SDF has set certain standards and a certain bias, but that only makes more clear for me where M0 lacks. That lack decidedly has to do with M0 itself, and not my expectations due SDF. M+ was decidedly different from SDF, and it never had problems captivating me.

Edited: for grammar.

-Al

Edited April 5, 2004 by Sundown

[Agent ONE]

CROM Smiles at Macross Zero AND Macross 7

Except M7 Dynamite. He LAUGHS at that.

CROM smiles at NOTHING M7.