If Zentraedi are genetically

[Nightbat]

Up to the time they came across humans, was a lot of their success due to superior technology, or was it the soldiers that made the difference?

Sheer force in numbers

just look at the SW1 Killrate humans:Zentradi

without looking at "Culture" the Humans wiped out a pretty big number of ships with the Grand Cannon

if that was their only Ace up their sleeve, there would have been no misstake that the remaining zentradi forces (at least 60%) would have oblitirated everything

Edit: an we know that those "remaining forces" were just part of one fleet

while the zentradi have 1000(00?)'s

Edited September 4, 2003 by Nightbat®

[JB0]

Edit: an we know that those "remaining forces" were just part of one fleet

while the zentradi have 1000(00?)'s

The best indicator I've seen is that according to Macross Compendium there are about 1-2 thousand of the Fulbtzs-Berrentz "motherships" in the Zentradi army.

Of course, there's a few unknwons that serve to limit the usefullness of this statistic...

1. Some fleets may have multiple FBs. I don't want to see the fleet that needs them, but it's possible.

2. Not all fleets necessarily have FBs.

They may only be present in larger fleets.

...

Or the FB could be an obsolete design, superceded by a new and improved ship.

[Myriad]

Here is the answer!

PLOT HOLE!

[Lightning]

somehow that is always the answer...

[ewilen]

Okay, I agree that making copies of copies would be a bad idea. We could postulate that the Zentradi have a way of preventing copying errors or of detecting faulty clones and either discarding them or at least marking them as unsuitable for further copying. However, as a general rule, without sexual reproduction, errors will build up. (I don't know how protozoans manage to avoid this problem.)

Still, I don't see why we should necessarily assume the Zentradi are made from pseudo-sexual reproduction ("mixing DNA as needed to create new soldiers from any two given soliders"), or why we should need to see "visable means of storing clone sample DNA". Where are Zentradi individuals created? Generally not on the battlefleets, it would seem. The Zentradi could be created from a master library at various centralized locations.

Nightbat and Keith do raise an interesting question: how to account for the variability between Zentradi individuals? To which I'd add, if they weren't intended to reproduce sexually, why did the Protoculture preserve both sexes?

One possible set of answers to these questions could be that (a) the sexes complement each other in combat skills; (b) the master clone database is enormous, and includes a great variety of individuals based both on specialized roles and a general principle that excessive standardization of genotypes could result in a massive vulnerability. (E.g., the way that the massive standardization of Windows PC's has made us vulnerable to computer viral epidemics.) Also © the reproduction system may be imperfect, either tending to introduce genetic errors or often providing a less-than-ideal "prenatal" environment. Thus, even though all the Zentradi may be copied from a finite set of master blueprints, the copies may show some variation in appearance and "quality". Furthermore, even identical twins can develop somewhat differently on their way to adulthood; this may contribute to why Millia is at least a couple standard deviations above the typical Q-Rau pilot.

On the other hand, Keith could be right; or perhaps rather than using two existing Zentradi as sources of DNA, the manufacturing system builds each Zentran's genome from scratch based on general parameters, but with some intentional or unintentional variability.

edit: emoticon appeared where I didn't want it.

Edited September 5, 2003 by ewilen

[justvinnie]

Okay, I agree that making copies of copies would be a bad idea. We could postulate that the Zentradi have a way of preventing copying errors or of detecting faulty clones and either discarding them or at least marking them as unsuitable for further copying. However, as a general rule, without sexual reproduction, errors will build up. (I don't know how protozoans manage to avoid this problem.)

Still, I don't see why we should necessarily assume the Zentradi are made from pseudo-sexual reproduction ("mixing DNA as needed to create new soldiers from any two given soliders"), or why we should need to see "visable means of storing clone sample DNA". Where are Zentradi individuals created? Generally not on the battlefleets, it would seem. The Zentradi could be created from a master library at various centralized locations.

Nightbat and Keith do raise an interesting question: how to account for the variability between Zentradi individuals? To which I'd add, if they weren't intended to reproduce sexually, why did the Protoculture preserve both sexes?

One possible set of answers to these questions could be that (a) the sexes complement each other in combat skills; (B) the master clone database is enormous, and includes a great variety of individuals based both on specialized roles and a general principle that excessive standardization of genotypes could result in a massive vulnerability. (E.g., the way that the massive standardization of Windows PC's has made us vulnerable to computer viral epidemics.) Also © the reproduction system may be imperfect, either tending to introduce genetic errors or often providing a less-than-ideal "prenatal" environment. Thus, even though all the Zentradi may be copied from a finite set of master blueprints, the copies may show some variation in appearance and "quality". Furthermore, even identical twins can develop somewhat differently on their way to adulthood; this may contribute to why Millia is at least a couple standard deviations above the typical Q-Rau pilot.

On the other hand, Keith could be right; or perhaps rather than using two existing Zentradi as sources of DNA, the manufacturing system builds each Zentran's genome from scratch based on general parameters, but with some intentional or unintentional variability.

not true. both sexual and asexual reproduction will introduce mutations over time. Mutation is the well spring of natural selection.

All cloning will do is put the gene pool of a population into stasis, asssuming that mutations that spontaeously occur are irradicated.

vinnie

[Keith]

Why did the Protoculture keep both sex's in the Zentradi army? Simple, the males fought on one side of the civil war, while the females fought on the other. This is also outlined in the difference between their ship designs. Mind you this is all moot once the Protodevilin come about, as the Protoculture combined their fire power in an effort to survive (which is why we have a mixed fleet such as the Bodolza fleet). Besides, the Protoculture couldn't have intended to fight eternally, and likely did plan to "decomission" the Zentradi, and absorb them back into their culture.

In fact, we do know that they intended to re-absorb them. After the Protodevilin were sealed, the remaining Protoculture did attempt to "culture" the Zentradi. Unfortunately, due to the newer battle orders which allowed them to fight the Supervision Army (which included mind controlled Protoculture), they realized they didn't have to follow orders, and lashed out at the Protoculture's attempt to change them, whiping their remains out.

Practice excersizes did occur to maintain battle readiness, but they also didn't keep soldiers satiated, or even interested (such as Kamjin's tendancy to kill his own men).

I still stand by my statement that they use a style of DNA mixing, the Protoculture's technology was too sophisticated for them not to have.

[ewilen]

not true. both sexual and asexual reproduction will introduce mutations over time. Mutation is the well spring of natural selection.

All cloning will do is put the gene pool of a population into stasis, asssuming that mutations that spontaeously occur are irradicated.

Sorry for the mistake, you are of course correct. And as well, regardless of the method of reproduction, a "reproductive fitness sieve"--whether natural selection or selective breeding--is an important way that harmful mutations are eliminated, and beneficial ones preserved and disseminated. However, if I'm not mistaken, the main benefit of sexual reproduction (from a biological standpoint--we're all aware of the esthetic benefits, hm?) is that it both speeds the dissemination of beneficial mutations and helps suppress harmful ones.

(Side note: I think I remember reading or hearing that many protozoa which don't reproduce sexually still manage to swap genes to some extent.)

(Edit: omitted "protozoa".)

Edited September 5, 2003 by ewilen

[ewilen]

Why did the Protoculture keep both sex's in the Zentradi army? Simple, the males fought on one side of the civil war, while the females fought on the other.

[edit]

I still stand by my statement that they use a style of DNA mixing, the Protoculture's technology was too sophisticated for them not to have.

Okay, I know next to nothing of what is revealed in M7, but are you saying that the Protoculture's civil war was between male and female, with each sex creating its own race of giant humanoid warriors? If so, thanks, that clears that up nicely.

On your second comment, I don't see how the sophistication of the technology points in any particular direction--the most sophisticated technology would produce the best results, regardless of the technique.

[Nightbat]

I don't see how the sophistication of the technology points in any particular direction--the most sophisticated technology would produce the best results, regardless of the technique.

I suggest you try that theory out on a chimp with a lab-set

[justvinnie]

However, if I'm not mistaken, the main benefit of sexual reproduction (from a biological standpoint--we're all aware of the esthetic benefits, hm?) is that it both speeds the dissemination of beneficial mutations and helps suppress harmful ones.

(Side note: I think I remember reading or hearing that many protozoa which don't reproduce sexually still manage to swap genes to some extent.)

(Edit: omitted "protozoa".)

Neither sexual or asexual reproduction are better at the dissemination of "beneficial" alleles (variants of one gene, in theory we already have all our genes, just a different set of alleles). Keep in mind that asexual organisms tend to breed at a much faster rate then sexual organism. Only one organism needs to gain the beneficial allele for it to be present in the population at significant levels within hours (assuming that it confers extreme benefits).

You are correct though that sexual reproduction allows the masking of harmful alleles by genetic shuffling. The problem with this is that the allele is not eliminated. As such progenies continue to carry the gene and express it at some point. Over time without selective pressures to keep the frequencies of the allele in check, it will enter equilibrium with all it's counter part despite it's "harmfulness", an example being my myopia.

Simpler organisms undergo what is called conjugation to exchange genetic data only. Also they often have the ability to just pick up genetic information that is present in the environment that originally came from other organisms that somehow burst and spilling the DNA out.

Back on topic: The Zentraedi used cloning as their soel method of reproduction. However, they themselves are unaware of the genetic engineering principles. If what Keith says is true about their use of in vitro DNA mixing, then by chance a warrior may arise that happens to have the most beneficial alleles in him or her. However, most of the warriors would be average, unless there is a selective mechanism in effect. That may explain why so many of them sucked as warriors. Also the base gene pool must be taken in to consideration since it determnines the average ability.

However, I do not recall an instance where this was mentioned. It seems to me that the series implicitedly or explicited states that the Zentraedi are really clones of individuals. Remember when Misa sees the cloning chambers? It is also apprent I think that each Zentraedi falls in to specific class. Otherwise you would see Bodolzaa class individuals fighting as grunts and Exedol class individuals as commanders of entire fleets. It's seems too structured especially considering the militaristic nature for this to be true.

My opinion is that because the Zentraedi were cloned from exisiting members of the PCsociety, there spans a spectrum of abilities. However, the education methodology clearly is used to suppress many of the simple abilities that all societies have. Instead all education is geared towards making warriors. They after all are cannon fodder and so whether they are fit for warrior hood is not important.

vinnie

[ewilen]

Why did the Protoculture keep both sex's in the Zentradi army? Simple, the males fought on one side of the civil war, while the females fought on the other.

Okay, I know next to nothing of what is revealed in M7, but are you saying that the Protoculture's civil war was between male and female, with each sex creating its own race of giant humanoid warriors? If so, thanks, that clears that up nicely.

Hm, according to the "official" chronolgy, Zentradi were created before the Protoculture civil war.

BC 500,000s First year of Protoculture Calendar (PC 0).

PC 2400s Protoculture's first space colonization begins (with the use of sub-light-velocity spaceships). [PC 2600s]

PC 2500s The mass production of giant biological weapons for proxy warfare, "Zentradi," is begun. The "Zentradi" contribute greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence.[PC 2600s]

PC 2700s Protoculture's second space colonization begins (by super-light-velocity spaceships using fold navigation). PC 2800s

Unification of Stellar Republic by Protoculture.

PC 2860 Within the excessively overexpanding Stellar Republic, internal rifts begin forming. The internal rifts eventually develop into large-scale conflicts that split the Stellar Republic into two.

So what is the source for the claim that male and female Zentradi were created independently by opposing sides in the Protoculture's civil war?

[Mr March]

Obviously the Protoculture's mastery of genetics was far from absolute. If the Zentradi were able to be created as near-invincible soldiers, they would be a lot better than their human counterparts. Every Zentradi pilot would be an ace if it was all in the genes right? The entire Zentradi and Meltrandi fleets would be filled with Millias

There are also other factors that can affect soldery as well. I beleive it was Misa who said Max's situational awareness was almost perfect. That skill wouldn't necessarily be a matter of genetics but more a matter of learning, cognitive process, and mental discipline. Kinda hard to clone those aspects of a living organism.

There is also the point (I think someone else pointed it out) of a lack of Zentradi creativity and innovation. Cunning and skill can only take one so far. If a pilot can creatively innovate and adapt in combat situations better than a Zentradi, the Zentradi training and genetic advantages aren't really all that impressive.

Just a few points to ponder

Edited September 6, 2003 by Mr March

[JB0]

There are also other factors that can affect soldery as well. I beleive it was Misa who said Max's situational awareness was almost perfect. That skill wouldn't necessarily be a matter of genetics but more a matter of learning, cognitive process, and mental discipline. Kinda hard to clone those aspects of a living organism.

And it was Hikaru that said not to tell him he was as bad-ass as he was.

Didn't want him getting over-confident.

...

That's likely how Max beat Millia using an unarguably inferior vehicle, in a video game she'd already gotten warmed up on, and in a knife fight that he didn't even want to be in.

Millia KNEW she was as bad as all that and a bag of chips.

The concept of loosing was so alien to her that she got careless. That was the first battle.

And BOY did it piss her off to know someone else could beat her. And for it to be some puny little MICLONE with such inferior technology... and anger can lead to judgement lapses.

That gave Max the edge for a relatively easy win in the video game(As I recall he wasn't even focusing on the game, preferring to split his focus between the battle and figuring out how large Millia's chest was).

Then he was so non-chalant about it after he beat her... Trying to involve her in those vulgar cultural acts like exchanging phone numbers. The bastard.

By the time they got to the knife fight she was so pissed I doubt she could see straight, much less stab someone to death.

Millia may have had genetics in her favor.

But she was too cocky. And then she made it personal.

So remember folks, don't get overconfident.

Unless you want to marry an alien.

[ewilen]

Well, they both ended up marrying an alien...

I'm not so sure the Q-Rau is unarguably superior to a Valkyrie. (But maybe you're just giving Millia's perspective.)

I just thought of one more Zentradi disadvantage, at least in SDF Macross and DYRL. For much of the action, their rules of engagement didn't allow them to go all-out, although Khyron (cough...Quamzin) often disregarded this order.

Edited September 6, 2003 by ewilen

[justvinnie]

Obviously the Protoculture's mastery of genetics was far from absolute. If the Zentradi were able to be created as near-invincible soldiers, they would be a lot better than their human counterparts. Every Zentradi pilot would be an ace if it was all in the genes right? The entire Zentradi and Meltrandi fleets would be filled with Millias

There is also the point (I think someone else pointed it out) of a lack of Zentradi creativity and innovation. Cunning and skill can only take one so far. If a pilot can creatively innovate and adapt in combat situations better than a Zentradi, the Zentradi training and genetic advantages aren't really all that impressive.

I'd have to disagree. I think their mastery of genetics is close to absolute. The mere fact that they were able to genetically guide numerous planets evolutionary trends indicates so. More than anything, I don't they wanted a perfect soldier. Who will police the police if the Zentraidi are superior?

So instead of making them perfect and giving them the most powerful weapons, the PC made them normal from stock PC genes. They gave them second rate, mass produced weaponry. But they gave them unlimited numbers. Cannon fodder in the purest sense.

As for the training, I think that again has to do with the class a Zentraedi belongs in. I think that some members are capable of more "battle creativity" then others. Namely commanders and aces were given better education programming to elevated them from the common fodder.

vinnie

[JB0]

Well, they both ended up marrying an alien...

Well, I was wrapping up with a semi-comedic shot at the whole thing.

I'm amazed the marriage worked at all.

I can just see them in marriage counseling...

"Shared interests?

We both play video games.

And we dye our hair....

And we... no, we don't do that, never mind.

Errr...

Ummm...

Does sex count?"

I'm not so sure the Q-Rau is unarguably superior to a Valkyrie. (But maybe you're just giving Millia's perspective.)

I WAS giving Millia's perceptions of things, but I hapen to share that one.

[Keith]

No, the Protoculture themselves weren't divided into sex's, just their stock of Zentradi soldiers. One side used males, the other side used females.

And as already pointed out, the fact that they could create life from nothing (the Zentradi weren't evolved from any previous life form), let alone completely alter evolutionary patters of pre-existing life (Humans, & Zolans, amongst who knows how many other worlds in the Galactic Republic) proves that their technology spanned far past just simple replication type cloning.

[ewilen]

I'd have to disagree. I think their mastery of genetics is close to absolute. The mere fact that they were able to genetically guide numerous planets evolutionary trends indicates so. More than anything, I don't they wanted a perfect soldier. Who will police the police if the Zentraidi are superior?

So instead of making them perfect and giving them the most powerful weapons, the PC made them normal from stock PC genes. They gave them second rate, mass produced weaponry. But they gave them unlimited numbers. Cannon fodder in the purest sense.

There's also a possibility I sort-of alluded to in my comments on the Zentradi cloning process--perhaps the early Zentradi were very high quality indeed, but after the fall of the Protoculture, the cloning equipment fell into disrepair and the raw materials (in-vitro media and nutrients) could no longer be produced with high levels of purity. It would be as if you were making copies of the Mona Lisa using a color copier with a dirty glass, cracked mirrors, spotty lens, and dried-out toner.

As well, isn't it implied that the Zentradi often have to make do with old equipment, and that some of their equipment lines can no longer be manufactured due to the destruction of their factories? This is certainly the case with the Glaug, according to the Compendium.

The overall picture is one of a long, slow decline in equipment quality and no innovation until after SW1. The same may have been true of the personnel as well.

[ewilen]

No, the Protoculture themselves weren't divided into sex's, just their stock of Zentradi soldiers. One side used males, the other side used females.

And as already pointed out, the fact that they could create life from nothing (the Zentradi weren't evolved from any previous life form), let alone completely alter evolutionary patters of pre-existing life (Humans, & Zolans, amongst who knows how many other worlds in the Galactic Republic) proves that their technology spanned far past just simple replication type cloning.

Okay, so we really haven't answered why Zentradi were created in both sexes. (Although I've offered one guess: the two sexes have complementary abilities.) By the way, what is your source for "males were used by one side, females by the other"?

Regarding your second point--point taken. The Protoculture didn't just clone, they also engaged in genetic engineering. On the other hand, that doesn't mean the production systems used by the Zentradi are the same as the engineering tools used by the Protoculture.

[Keith]

Macross 7 episode (was it 35?) titled "Mystery of the Ruins". Exedor lays down the whole history of the Protoculture from a mural left over in ruins found on planet Lux.

We did however answer the "why" of the both sex's being used. The Protoculture did intend to re-integrate the Zentradi into society should their war end, but at the same time they didn't want the Zentradi pro-creating or "creating thier own culture," as such it makes sense to split the sex's between the two sides, so that they're both available later.

Edited September 6, 2003 by Keith

[ewilen]

Thanks for the reference.

I still don't see why it was necessary to create males and females. Why not just create males, then re-integrate them after the fighting was over? Unless Z males somehow would need Z females? Why couldn't they mate with PC females? (I suppose the fact that all their progeny would likely be male could be a factor.)

[Backstabber]

I just skimmed the thread and won't go into the whole genetic cloning specifics but to give a reply to the original post.

I think it's human arrogance that humans will always be the best. From what Vinnie posted each Zent ace was bested by a member of the human race and thats pretty ridiculous to me. If there is always someone better why can't there be a Zent that bested Max or Isamu or even a protodevlin that wasn't conquered by human will.

This is why I liked the Alien movies.... it's shown who's the dominating species and humans just keep surviving. It's a never ending struggle like the tennis game mentioned earlier in the thread... sometimes you win sometimes you lose but neither will humiliate the other.

The female and male Zents fought each other for generations this way but in just a couple years of contact with humans they fall? Again it seems far fetched but I guess this sort of story telling is needed to keep our species content that we are the masters of the universe since we dominate our own planet.

[Mr March]

Obviously the Protoculture's mastery of genetics was far from absolute. 

*snip*

I'd have to disagree. I think their mastery of genetics is close to absolute. The mere fact that they were able to genetically guide numerous planets evolutionary trends indicates so. More than anything, I don't they wanted a perfect soldier. Who will police the police if the Zentraidi are superior?

So instead of making them perfect and giving them the most powerful weapons, the PC made them normal from stock PC genes. They gave them second rate, mass produced weaponry. But they gave them unlimited numbers. Cannon fodder in the purest sense.

As for the training, I think that again has to do with the class a Zentraedi belongs in. I think that some members are capable of more "battle creativity" then others. Namely commanders and aces were given better education programming to elevated them from the common fodder.

vinnie

I'd still disagree with the Protoculture's knowledge of genetics. Guiding a race through evolution to a particular form is a pretty low-tech and arduous process. It's not exactly changing all that much. Like controlling x and y chromosomes in developing organisms. And who knows how many failures there were before the PC was able to master the evolution of humans.

The Zentradi themselves stand as a testament to the level of genetic science the Protoculture possessed. Given the Zentradi ability in battle, I think the PC's success (or lack thereof) speaks for itself. Now, there can be little arguement that creation of giant humans capable of surviving the weight of their own mass and being cloned to create near limitless numbers is no small feat of biology. It's just obvious that the Zentradi are far from the absoloute apex of genetic accomplishment. Let's face it, a super soldier could be done a lot better than this.

I'm not sure how the PC chose to educate or indoctrinate their own soldiers. It's hard to say if a selective education and curbing of creativity/independance/adaptation is exactly what the PC hand in mind. I suppose thats a point that could go either way.

Edited September 6, 2003 by Mr March

[ewilen]

I think it's human arrogance that humans will always be the best. From what Vinnie posted each Zent ace was bested by a member of the human race and thats pretty ridiculous to me. If there is always someone better why can't there be a Zent that bested Max or Isamu or even a protodevlin that wasn't conquered by human will.

[edit]

The female and male Zents fought each other for generations this way but in just a couple years of contact with humans they fall? Again it seems far fetched but I guess this sort of story telling is needed to keep our species content that we are the masters of the universe since we dominate our own planet.

I agree with your first point. Actually, I'd simply extend it to "our side will always be the best". You almost never have a war or conflict narrative where in the end, the protagonist is really unable to overcome his/her adversary. Due to the nature of the Macross story, it's also necessary for the Valkyrie pilots to be able to hold their own against superior numbers of Zentradi throughout the narrative.To an extent it's a needed fictional convention, but there's no doubt also a good deal of ethnocentrism/speciesism tied up in it. I think we generally acknowledge these meta-reasons and then, for fun, we see if we can find an in-story rationale to explain it.

On the second point, though, it's simply a major premise of the story that the Zentradi are vulnerable to "cultural attack". We don't really need to rationalize it; enough explanation is provided in context and we can either accept it or reject it. I do agree that this premise is also a bit chauvinistic and wishful; it's comforting to think that human culture and emotions are special, and that they could somehow enable humanity to survive even against fantastic odds, but in light of our own history we should at least be skeptical of the notion.

[ewilen]

giant humans capable of surviving the weight of their own mass

Shhh!

That's a whole other can of worms!

Edited September 6, 2003 by ewilen

[ewilen]

Macross 7 episode (was it 35?) titled "Mystery of the Ruins". Exedor lays down the whole history of the Protoculture from a mural left over in ruins found on planet Lux.

I found the script to the episode (actually #37) here, among other places. I didn't find any reference to male/female Zentradi being used by opposing sides, or of the need to reintegrate them after the war the ended. A cursory look over the following episodes' scripts and some of the Encore & Movie scripts (but not Dynamite or Trash) didn't turn up anything.

[Mr March]

giant humans capable of surviving the weight of their own mass

Shhh!

That's a whole other can of worms!

Hehehe

[Keith]

It specifically says they split into two factions I believe. However, going strictly by the Zentradi mlitary structure (you never see males in female style ships, and you only see the Laplamiz fleet melded into the Bodolza fleet due to the conflict with the Protodevilin). It's obvious one side used females, the other side used males.

[ewilen]

I don't think the male/female ships have different styles in the series, do they? (Ships, not mecha. Only girls get Q-Rau; boys have N-Gers. But the mecha style is similar.) In DYRL the Meltrandi have different styled ships, similar to Macross, but in SDF Macross the Macross is a Supervision army ship.

Bodolza and Laplamiz were alive at the time of the conflict with the Protodeviln?

[azrael]

I don't think the male/female ships have different styles in the series, do they? (Ships, not mecha. Only girls get Q-Rau; boys have N-Gers. But the mecha style is similar.) In DYRL the Meltrandi have different styled ships, similar to Macross, but in SDF Macross the Macross is a Supervision army ship.

I think they did. But it was a detail that I didn't notice/realize because it appeared only in episode 26/27. It was something that the guys pointed out to me about a year ago.

Bodolza and Laplamiz were alive at the time of the conflict with the Protodeviln?

We don't know. Well, to the topic of Zentradi and clones, they may have had a clone alive at that time.

[JB0]

Lap'lamiz drove a purple ship. That's the extent of distinctive ship design as far as I know.

[ewilen]

Yes, I just took a look at episode 27 (Robotech version, my Animeigo DVD's from overstock.com aren't due yet) and I could tell there was a greyish (I guess it was a purplish) ship. I couldn't tell exactly what type of ship she had, but based on the style it seemed to be the same as other Zentradi ships. In Macross Perfect Memory, there's no "special" Laplamiz/female ship type shown in the "Mechanic" lineart section (specifically pages 176-182, which cover the Zentradi star ships)

One might argue that the DYRL designs supersede the TV ones even though the TV continuity is official, but that doesn't appear to be the position taken by the Compendium.

Edited to add:

Speaking of the Compendium, this item from the Chronology is interesting:

2010

April

Establishment of new United Nations Government [new Unity Government]. Education programs for Zentradi begin. Miclone processing of Zentradi applicants begins.

May

Macross City reconstruction begins. [Macross City reconstruction completed.]

Mass cloning of people as well as animals and plants through the use of Protoculture technology begins.

(Link here.)

Edited September 7, 2003 by ewilen

[justvinnie]

Yes, I just took a look at episode 27 (Robotech version, my Animeigo DVD's from overstock.com aren't due yet) and I could tell there was a greyish (I guess it was a purplish) ship. I couldn't tell exactly what type of ship she had, but based on the style it seemed to be the same as other Zentradi ships. In Macross Perfect Memory, there's no "special" Laplamiz/female ship type shown in the "Mechanic" lineart section (specifically pages 176-182, which cover the Zentradi star ships)

One might argue that the DYRL designs supersede the TV ones even though the TV continuity is official, but that doesn't appear to be the position taken by the Compendium.

Edited to add:

Speaking of the Compendium, this item from the Chronology is interesting:

2010

April

Establishment of new United Nations Government [new Unity Government]. Education programs for Zentradi begin. Miclone processing of Zentradi applicants begins.

May

Macross City reconstruction begins. [Macross City reconstruction completed.]

Mass cloning of people as well as animals and plants through the use of Protoculture technology begins.

(Link here.)

Yeah also from the Compendium:

2030

Because of the increase in hereditary children's diseases due to the overuse of cloning, mass cloning is terminated.

Mass cloning turned out to be a disaster.

vinnie

[Keith]

Like I said, the ships of the Laplamiz fleet don't count, as they were obviously a mesh into the Bodolza fleet to fight the Protodevilin (after all previous Protoculture Civil war boundries were taken off). What I'm speaking of are the actual Meltrandi ship designs (as depicted by the ASS-1 itself, a Supervision Army refit of a Protoculture & or Meltrandi design), and the Chlore fleet in FotSW.