If Zentraedi are genetically

justvinnie · September 2, 2003

Why is it that whenever you have a Zentraedi ace, they always get cut down by human pilots. Max defeated Milia. Isamu is Guld superior in the cockpit. Even Kamjin was just Hikaru's equal.

Sure you are going to say that these are exceptions rather than the rule, but if exceptions exists then the Protoculture must not have had the "best" genes or could not engineer the best gene. Is this natural selection at its best?

vinnie

Tekkaman Blade · September 2, 2003

I don't see how it makes too much sense either, considering they had no culture and all they did was train and fight. So you'd think they'd be fleets of veteran pros.

Keith · September 2, 2003

It's a simple matter of battle experience. The Zentradi of 2009 haven't had very many opportunities to fight. The Supervision Army is all but whipped out, and aside from a casual run in, they probably don't fight each other very much. Humans however just got hot off the Unification wars.

Beisdes, Guld had a superior fighter, but Isamu was a superior pilot.

azrael · September 2, 2003

You know the saying....There's always someone better than you.

UN Spacy · September 2, 2003

Eh.....Zentradi soldiers = Star Wars Stormtroopers = Lord of the Rings Orcs = Star Trek Redshirts = the clones of Agent Smith (in The Matrix Reloaded).

They may look tough....but when push comes to shove they're take out easily (as the story writers demands demand).

EXO · September 2, 2003

Max was just an great anomaly. He fought like a machine.

Kamjin was an officer. While he was ruthless, he probably did more from the back of the line. And when he was at the front, I suspect he used plenty of dirty tactics. Just like Bodolza, I'm sure he would have no problem cutting down his own men just to hit his target.

Guld's blood was diluted down by human blood. While he was good, he was systematic and Isamu was a chaotic S.O.B.

Tekkaman Blade · September 2, 2003

On what Keith said, that doesn't make any sense. You claim they haven't had experience LATELY. But these are clones of 100's of older clones. Meaning they should all have the same experience as their predecessor.

Radd · September 2, 2003

On what Keith said, that doesn't make any sense. You claim they haven't had experience LATELY. But these are clones of 100's of older clones. Meaning they should all have the same experience as their predecessor.

It's a misconception that a clone will hold the memories of whatever they're cloned from. A clone won't even necessarily look like the being it's cloned from, as what we look like is defined by our personalities, our environment, and how we treat our bodies. A clone is simply a being grown from the cells of another by means other than natural reproduction.

Kawamori has yet to explore just how much alike Zentradi clones are to the beings they are cloned from, but it is never stated that they hold the memories of those past. Perhaps they do, but only from the original being they are cloned from and not a constantly updated genetic source that clones the new clones from the genetic material of the last clone.

If they did hold all those memories, it would be impossible for Kawamori to ignore it in any of the previous Macross stories, it is just to big a factor in the Zentradi/Meltrandi character structure.

More than likely each clone is 'born' mostly matured physically, but mentally they only know what was 'programmed' into them during the cloning process. I expect they would somehow be educated during the cloning process, some kind of imprinting, as I don't see any sort of Zentradi school or academy being possible, nor feasable for the mass-produced war machines that the Zentradi are supposed to be.

Tekkaman Blade · September 2, 2003

That could be it.

EXO · September 2, 2003

BTW, Guld wasn't genetically engineered even though his Zentran fighting instinct were borned into him.

And it would seem to me that the main greatness of the Zentran race was numbers. Did you see how many they brought just to destroy the earth??? Talk about overkill. I for one would love to see a fight between the them and the Supervision Army. If they had half the number of the Zentradis it would still be one gigantic brawl.

Aegis! · September 2, 2003

If they could retain information as easily as some people think then they would have no need for Exedol. Don´t think of Zentradis as people , think of them as machines , tools , biological weapons even , they could easily put battle tactics into a clone´s memory but that clone itslef doesn´t have any experience at all until he goes into battle.

dna · September 2, 2003

It's a misconception that a clone will hold the memories of whatever they're cloned from. A clone won't even necessarily look like the being it's cloned from, as what we look like is defined by our personalities, our environment, and how we treat our bodies. A clone is simply a being grown from the cells of another by means other than natural reproduction.

This is why it is useless to clone yourself for immortality.

Raptor · September 2, 2003

Genetic engineering will never beat natural genius...

Agent ONE · September 2, 2003

Meh, everyone has an equal... Go and play some tennis. Eventually you will come to one who you will spar with yet neither of you can humiliate the other.

JsARCLIGHT · September 2, 2003

Like AgentONE said, everyone has someone better than them. Just because Milia was bested by Max to me doesn't mean bupkis... she got beat by one person... think about the thousands of other people she killed before getting "bested" by Max... notice that she got "bested" not beat, if Max had truly beat her she'd be dead. Same goes for Kamjin, he fought Hikaru to a tie one time... they both got shot up and each lost an arm... but both survived to fight another day.

If anything, this argument can prove that Misa in fact beat Hikaru with that hail of missles from the Daedelus so then would that make her superior to Hikaru? And Breetai pretty much shook off Max fairly easily before kicking the bajesus out of Hikaru, so then does that mean Breetai is better than both of them?

It all boils down to one thing: in war there are no winners, just survivors. The "aces" as they can be called are the top of the food chain, they survive by their skills... but as Roy Focker so elegantly proves, even the mighty can fall no matter how good they are.

Plus, what kind of story can you have if the protagonists are always getting killed by their enemies?

EXO · September 2, 2003

Everything can be summed up by answers that explores the nature of screenwriting and what tells the best story. But where's the fun in that? Justvinnie asked the question assuming that there is plausibility in the scenario, as most subjects in this section are asked. The argument is still valid: If a being could be engineered solely for war, would that mean they are undefeatable?

But then again we could just answer the obvious; it's just a cartoon, get over it. Which would totally invalidate the existance of the Movie/TV section.

JsARCLIGHT · September 2, 2003

No army is undefeatable and no soldier is "ultimate", they all have weaknesses. The flaw in the Zentradi design is their lack of culture and their shock when exposed to it. In my book that is one huge freaking weakness... but then again they are a special trooper designed to fight a special enemy: the Supervision Army. I bet if the Zentradi where designed to fight Protoculture they would have been made differently with alternate strengths and weaknesses.

... and in the end the Zentradi had the end all and be all of a seemingly undefeatable army: numbers. If they just didn't freak out when they heard a small japanese girl sing then the macross and earth would have just been another grease stain on their shirt.

orguss01 · September 2, 2003

In my H.O. the Zentran army is kinda like the US army.

real strong and would hate to go head to head against,

think of how many armies the Zentran defeated with just a few cannon barages, maybe they are like "BORG" overwhelm the enemy with #'s, not very intelectual but very compliant with orders...."hey all you, go over there, attack this, defend that"...they are genetically conditioned as troops not leaders, too many leaders can be a mess on the battle field, any paintballers out there,,,the ones that kick ass are probly ''coded ' dif., maybe they got to play more PACMAN when they were smal, lol , could you imagine a small zentran baby, about how tall????did they have a baby stage????

Abombz!! · September 2, 2003

Why are the Zentradi always bested? Because thats how they were built.

The Zentradi were nothing but weapons created to police the galaxy. If they were to run out of control, the protoculture had to have a way of getting them back in the leash..... and using genes that could be bested by humans was one of the ways.

Zentradis were perfect in mass numbers.... but in 1on1... they could be bested.

ewilen · September 2, 2003

Meh, everyone has an equal... Go and play some tennis. Eventually you will come to one who you will spar with yet neither of you can humiliate the other.

How I would love to meet a tennis player who can't humiliate me!

On the topic, with the exception of Guld, all the Zentradi were using different technology and different doctrine from the humans, and in fact one gets the impression that the humans in general had a kill:loss ratio considerably greater than 1:1 against virtually all enemy mecha (Regult, Q-Rau, N-Ger, possibly Glaug as well) and fighters (Gnerl).

Radd · September 2, 2003

It's a misconception that a clone will hold the memories of whatever they're cloned from. A clone won't even necessarily look like the being it's cloned from, as what we look like is defined by our personalities, our environment, and how we treat our bodies. A clone is simply a being grown from the cells of another by means other than natural reproduction.

This is why it is useless to clone yourself for immortality.

Not necessarily, there is the idea of 'racial memory'. Where our memories are stored in our DNA or something like that and passed from one generation to the next, but not conciously accessible.

Of course that's most likely just fodder for science fiction writers, but it is a nifty idea.

Mowgli · September 2, 2003

I think this is being looked at all wrong. take into to consideration the big picture. The Zentradi wiped out all of humanity except for the folks on the Macross, and the only reason The Macross survived was dumb luck, and a rebellion inside the ranks of the Zentradi.

imode · September 2, 2003

The only reason Millia lost to Max was because she was too distracted by his.... nosecone...

Gyges · September 2, 2003

I would venture that the Zentraedi proved relatively "easy" to best in virtue of their lack of culture. They had a lack of motivation; they never had anything to fight for. Few exhibited any real pride, and those that did were typically aces. Even then, though, mere pride can't compare to the motivation provided by genuine belief in ideals and/or having loved ones to fight for. My two cents.

azrael · September 2, 2003

The only reason Millia lost to Max was because she was too distracted by his.... nosecone...

What Radd said is probably correct.

BTW, Guld wasn't genetically engineered even though his Zentran fighting instinct were borned into him.

That trait is most likely a genetic trait passed on by his father. What Guld may lack from genetics or whatnot, is the ability to control that trait or more specifically, the drive to fight. Which leads to the drugs. However, Mylene hardly displayed that "fighting" trait from her mother.

JB0 · September 2, 2003

I would venture that the Zentraedi proved relatively "easy" to best in virtue of their lack of culture. They had a lack of motivation; they never had anything to fight for. Few exhibited any real pride, and those that did were typically aces. Even then, though, mere pride can't compare to the motivation provided by genuine belief in ideals and/or having loved ones to fight for. My two cents.

Yah.

Furthermore, the humans had the home field advantage, so to speak.

First we were fighting to get back home, and then when Bodolzaa's fleet arrived we were quite literally fighting for the survival of not just our way of life, but of our entire species. Not ideals, not loved ones, we were fighting against extinction.

Nothing to inspire you like knowing that if you fail, all of humanity will die.

The Zentradi, as you say, were fighting for the sake of fighting, as knowledge of culture and the devastating effects it had on Zentradi society was restricted to the highest ranks(Bodolzaa told Britai and Exedol personally, and they told their allies, and that's likely as far as the knowledge went).

Had this knowledge been more widespread, they would've been fighting for survival too.

Note that the "contaminated" Zentradi fighting alongside the Macross in the final battle of Space War 1 seem to have put up a good fight, in that they survived against mind-numbingly incomprehensible odds.

...

Granted their opponents were reeling from culture shock, but they still had a staggering number of guns to shoot. If only 1 in a thousand ships had bounced back enough to fight after being bombarded with j-pop and seeing the Grand Cannon obliterate some 750 thousand ships in a matter of seconds, that's still something like 3:1 against.

Keith · September 3, 2003

A word on Zentradi cloning:

They are not carbon copies of each other, thier cloning methods would be more attributed to being "test tube" babies, where in dna is mixed then grown, not directly copied. If they'd be copies of copies, they would have all died out long before the start of the series.

ewilen · September 3, 2003

A word on Zentradi cloning:
They are not carbon copies of each other, thier cloning methods would be more attributed to being "test tube" babies, where in dna is mixed then grown, not directly copied. If they'd be copies of copies, they would have all died out long before the start of the series.

Source?

KingNor · September 4, 2003

A word on Zentradi cloning:
They are not carbon copies of each other, thier cloning methods would be more attributed to being "test tube" babies, where in dna is mixed then grown, not directly copied. If they'd be copies of copies, they would have all died out long before the start of the series.

what makes you say that?

you could clone someone indefinately and make as many copys as you wanted.

what makes you think they would die out?

ewilen · September 4, 2003

Exactly. There are problems with cloning adult mammals using current technology (thus Dolly's health problems and premature death), but there's no reason to believe Zentradi technology (as bequeathed to them by the Protoculture) hasn't overcome that. I see the Zentradi process as most likely being based on a "library" of master blueprints. No DNA "mixing", just taking the blueprint off the shelf and "printing" a new copy.

This is based on the fact that the Zentradi and Meltrandi in DYRL all have numbers after their names, implying that each is the nth copy of a master design. I do agree that it's unlikely the Zentradi clone existing individuals. Obviously at one time it must have been possible either to copy the complete genetic makeup of existing individuals or even to engineer a made-to-order set of genes; this would have been the origin of the "library". However, I suspect (albeit without strong evidence) that this capability wasn't passed on to the Zentradi.

Radd · September 4, 2003

I think Keith's post about the Zentradi dying off if they were constantly copying clones stems from the idea that there's new flaws introduced with every incarnation. Those flaws will build up.

Eventually the flaws would build to the point that the Zentradi genetics would be so diluted that they wouldn't survive.

Depending on the cloning techniques this could be compared to inbreeding. Inbreeding causes recessed flaws to come to the surface more easily.

Hurin · September 4, 2003

To say that they were "genetically engineered" to be superior soldiers doesn't necessarily mean that they were engineered well.

Regular ol' sexual mixing and matching DNA could conceivably come up with a better "combat combination" of genes.

Or, maybe those who "engineered" the zentraedi could have made pilots and soldiers as good as Max, but the genes that would do so also bring about emotional-ism or other side effects they did not want. So, they had to make trade-offs.

Just some theories. . .

H

Keith · September 4, 2003

The numbering system in DYRL only exists in DYRL. All Zentradi in Macross, & Macross 7 have last names (Milia still remains Milia Farina Jenius, not Milia 639 Jenius, Veffidas last name is Feaze, etc). And while we never do see any Zentradi being "born," we do know from the Protoculture's handywork on both Earth & Zola, they are quite adept at altering & generating DNA.

When you take into consideration the huge numbers of fleets, the hundreds of thousands of years that the Protoculture produced Zentradi, and the 50,000 years that the Zentradi roamed free after the fall of the Protoculture, there's no way in hell that they're simply copies of copies. Also accounting for the fact that there were no on hand medical technicians, no visable means of storing clone sample DNA, and the high unlikelyhood that they'd go back to retrieve blood samples once a soldier killed, just how would the perpetually copy themselves?

Despite the large number of fleets, there were no two Zentradi shown that looked exactly the same in any series or movie. Therefore, considering the widescope of Protoculture technology, it's far more likely that they just mixed DNA as needed to create new soldiers from any two given soliders. This of course isn't getting into the command class, advisor class, or fodder class soldier specifications, which is a slightly different subject.

Nightbat · September 4, 2003

The "copying" isn't used, it easily answers itself with this question:

"If zentradi are copies, why arent they all Millia?"

If the zentradi could, they'd copy a veteran ace

(not because of combat experience, but because of biological supremacy - i.e. faster reactions, higher stamina physical strenght, etc... )

Luck is one thing, but surviving 100's of battles (which some Zents have fought) means you're good!

Not only that, increasing flaws were already mentioned

but what if the same flaw of an original gets mass-produced?

your entire army would have the same weak spot

if only one threat discovers this, your army is toast

(hmmm,.... Culture was the enormous weakness in the Zentradi when facing the humans -though someone as quamjin did adapt and could ignore it- that undermines my entire "Flaw"-theory then again, the zents "Basic programming" disallowed all exposure to culture so maybe it was their "teaching" that was flawed)

Prime · September 4, 2003

Even though the Zentradi hadn't been in many battles for many years, they still have had millenia to refine how to train and prepare for war. Since it is all they have been bred for, the downtime wouldn't really have gone to other non-warfare activities. Surely they have had enough time to develop a system to keep a certain level of preparedness. Simple rustiness shouldn't account for losing pilot vs. pilot battles to a species that had at most a few decades to develop space/mecha tactics and training.

Even if their system of reproducing, training, and performing in combat may not have been perfect, it obviously was good enough to become the dominate warring species in the universe.

Up to the time they came across humans, was a lot of their success due to superior technology, or was it the soldiers that made the difference?

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