where are the destroids post SW1?

[Prime]

And then gets blown to bits at the end like all Destroid pilots

I think that is a job requirement.

[Final Vegeta]

Why Destroids should be used. They pack a lot of fire power equal to or greater than most VFs.

Macross isn't a series about power, is a series about mad piloting skillz.

It's more than likely that destroids will appear again, but there are reason why they will never be the star.

And except for the Spartan they all have long range weapons, so they will be killing enemies before the enemies can kill them.

At least if the enemies don't go for an orbital bombing.

Anyway, most of anime combat is close combat, and long range weapons have their limits. What about fighting in a city?

I think a series with Destroids as the main mecha would be cool and be successful.

Japanese kids won't like them, and military maniacs are kinda niche. Besides, people never liked anything resembling too close a tank, but grew fond of planes and ships.

FV

[dna]

Japanese kids won't like them, and military maniacs are kinda niche. Besides, people never liked anything resembling too close a tank, but grew fond of planes and ships.

FV

I think you are wrong.

[Boxer]

I'm a heavy armor and big guns fan, so naturally I like the Destroids. The Spartain and Monster in particular...

I would have written a fiction with Destroid pilots in starring roles, but I can't think of a situation where Destroids would really shine against VFs. Underground caves maybe, or inter-ship warfare.

I still don't know why Destroids like the Phalanx haven't become the VF's worst nightmare. They're anti-aircraft aren't they? An upgraded Phalanx with a larger missile payload should make any VF pilot break out in a sweat, especially if that Phalanx was fast or well hidden.

[wolfx]

I would have written a fiction with Destroid pilots in starring roles, but I can't think of a situation where Destroids would really shine against VFs. Underground caves maybe, or inter-ship warfare.

They'd do well in normal large scale ground battles as well as against normal grunt zentraedi without flying amour like regults and glauugs. Maybe as expeditionary/occupational forces to convert a whole zentran world to the love of min may.

Edited March 26, 2004 by wolfx

[KingNor]

Japanese kids won't like them, and military maniacs are kinda niche. Besides, people never liked anything resembling too close a tank, but grew fond of planes and ships.

FV

I think you are wrong.

i agree with dna, i want to see a side serise about a squad of destroid pilots.

maybe the guys who ended up in the fist of the dadelus attack????

[maxjenius81]

I think the reasons for the lack of Destroids post original series like was stated earlier are simply lack of toy potential versus a VF. As for their role on the battlefield, I think they still play a viable role. No matter how fast war moves you will ALWAYS need ground units of some kind. While VFs can patrol the ground, that is not their prefered environment which is either space or the sky above. Using an expensive fighter for ground detail would be a waste of money and resources when you could field additional Destroids for the cost of 1 VF probably. And I know its not entirely cannon but the cost has been estimated to be as much as 20 times a Spartan. This cost may have come down ove time but it would be like equipping your ENTIRE military during WWII with tanks, not practical.

If you can equip a lightweight fighter with 48 MM, a gunpod, some head lasers, and a set of large lasers, imagine what you could slap on a destroid. The bigger question is that if Destroids are really dead, then what does the UN Army use for Armored Cavalry? VFs? If thats the case then why should one have a UN Air Force if the Army, Navy, and Space Navy can conduct aerial missions of any kind? Just because we dont see it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Weve never seen the VAB-2, VA-14, VF-5, VF- 6, VF-7, VF-15, and VF-16, though we do see evidence of the VAB-2, VA-14, and VF-16s existance on screen, we never see those craft themselves. That doesnt mean they dont exist.

With the new Macross animation made for post 2012 has dealt with either space or test pilots, its possible they we wouldnt see Destroids as many have pointed out theyre not useful in space. As for Macross Plus and New Edwards lack of new destroids, well its a special base and requires the best defense money can by, hence the VF-11 on guard duty.

As for destroids on starships for defense, this is fairly a mute issue as non of the stats for ships list an attatched destroid unit. I think the original series use of destroids as AAA is a great idea. While turrets can do the same job, turrets cannot move and try to dodge as a destroid can. Also a small destroid complement would be ideal for boarding situations as well as planety assaults.

[DestroidDefender]

I'd love to see a side story set on a colony world (like mac+) that featured destroids. I can imagine a plot something like the seven samurai: A motley group of mecha pilots band together to defend an agricultural settlement from pirates including macronized Zentraedi and N-Ger's and Q-Rau's.

Hmm. The Mechnifacient Seven? The Destroids Ride Again? A Fistful of Mecha?

[maxjenius81]

thats all i have to say

[bob joe mac]

Hmmm.. I have no clue where I heard this but didn't Kawamori say (despite it being awesome) that he would never star the destroids because it would to close to Gundam?

[JB0]

Hmmm.. I have no clue where I heard this but didn't Kawamori say (despite it being awesome) that he would never star the destroids because it would to close to Gundam?

Most logical reason I've heard.

...

Not that every OTHeR mech anime hasn't done it...

[maxjenius81]

Ah but thats why like Macross, it ISNT every other anime.

[JB0]

Ah but thats why like Macross, it ISNT every other anime.

I'm jsut saying, they'd be like a lot more than just Gundam if htey did do it.

[Boxer]

Singing + Mecha + Romantic love triangle = Macross

So...

Minmei records (Again) + VB-6 & other Destroids + One pilot, two girls = Macross?

It would be interesting to show an OAV highlighting the VB-6 or a destroid crew set sometime around VF-X. As of today we don't have any animated productions about this time (other than the games).

[dedalus001]

i always wanted to see a series based on a regular low-ranking VF group fighting aboard the Macross. i just like the atmosphere of the utter impossibility of winning that war and the ability to see it in new animation.

hmm, there is the problem of keeping the three pilots ALIVE for the whole show..... o well, i guess the leader would survive the traumatizing war and his two wingmen would die somewhere...

but seriously, how psychologically degrading did fighting in deep space on one ship vs a few hundred (or thousand later) (or millions later) affect a vf pilot? its worse than world war I, and there are few things that are.

[Final Vegeta]

I still don't know why Destroids like the Phalanx haven't become the VF's worst nightmare. They're anti-aircraft aren't they?

You know the VF-11, it doesn't even have internal missile bays. Maybe for the first time in history militaries thought missiles and combat beyond visual range were becoming useless.

J/K

FV

[Final Vegeta]

Hmmm.. I have no clue where I heard this but didn't Kawamori say (despite it being awesome) that he would never star the destroids because it would to close to Gundam?

I think the real reason is that he designs mostly the Valkyries, the destroids are Miyatake's (although Kawamori could design destroids too).

Anyway, that reason would be good, too.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

I think you are wrong.

What is wrong?

1 Kids are a primary market in Japan

2 Japanese kids like mostly big robots. Commercially, how profitable in toys were Votoms, Patlabor or Escaflowne? Maybe I just got the wrong impression, but the original Gundam wasn't allowed to be less tall than 18m.

3 While Americans grew fond of mechs (which were derivative of Macross' destroids), Japanese like sleeker mechas highly anthropomorphic. Most Japanese mechas are Super Robots, and usually Super Robots have faces and cheesy features.

4 Were Yukikaze and the like really mainstream?

That's not to be said the story can't be good and someone can't think it has the best mecha ever, but business-wise I don't think it would that profitable. And if you start with too many violence it may end up getting nicher (less problem if you get violent in the later half, people already addicted will still follow the series).

FV

[Boxer]

I think the real reason is that he designs mostly the Valkyries, the destroids are Miyatake's (although Kawamori could design destroids too).

Anyway, that reason would be good, too.

FV

If what's in the design book is all of Kawamori's work, then he also designed the Zentraedi battle pods and aircraft of the series.

[KingNor]

I think you are wrong.

What is wrong?

1 Kids are a primary market in Japan

2 Japanese kids like mostly big robots. Commercially, how profitable in toys were Votoms, Patlabor or Escaflowne? Maybe I just got the wrong impression, but the original Gundam wasn't allowed to be less tall than 18m.

3 While Americans grew fond of mechs (which were derivative of Macross' destroids), Japanese like sleeker mechas highly anthropomorphic. Most Japanese mechas are Super Robots, and usually Super Robots have faces and cheesy features.

4 Were Yukikaze and the like really mainstream?

That's not to be said the story can't be good and someone can't think it has the best mecha ever, but business-wise I don't think it would that profitable. And if you start with too many violence it may end up getting nicher (less problem if you get violent in the later half, people already addicted will still follow the series).

FV

kids arn't nessesarily the "primary" market in japan. there are tons of anime, both featuring mechs and not featuring mechs that are marketed to the older crowd.

the kids in japan, like kids everwhere else, like what ever the hell they want to like. i don't remember any giant robots in poke'mon, yu ge oh!, dragon ball, inuyasha or many other kid oreiented anime that have become rediculously popular. toys will sell no mater what they look like if the show is popular enough.

i really don't see much diffrence in the mechs the americans like over the mechs the japanise like. some people like the anthropomorphic bots, some like the industrial types. i personally don't like the "anthropomorphic" type at all, yet i like the EVA's. so its a toss up! people like what ever hooks them there is no set type that is difiniativly more popular hands down. people want to see plausable machines for the universe they inhabit, gundams wouldn't fit in macross any more than eva's would fit in gundam.

i've never seen violence in animation to be THE deciding factor in niche'ing a show. to become a niche' a show would need to LACK other key elements. a show WITH ONLY violence but no story becomes a "violence" show (DBZ?). but a show WITH violence and story, and good characters, will simply be a good show. as long as events in a show make sence, then it won't niche itself.

judging from past mecha shows like macross, eva, gundam, patlabor, bubblegum crisis and many others, violence in early episods will NOT hurt a shows popularity one bit.

besides, the point is that many would like to see a show that instead of valks, showcased the destroids, the show doesn't need to FOCUS on the destroids any more than macross FOCUSED on the Valks. just when the pilot hops into something, make it an Excalibur instead of a VF-1.

[Boxer]

I'd actually like to see a fist fight between a Spartan and a Zentran (Or a rebel VF )

[dna]

I think you are wrong.

What is wrong?

1 Kids are a primary market in Japan

2 Japanese kids like mostly big robots. Commercially, how profitable in toys were Votoms, Patlabor or Escaflowne? Maybe I just got the wrong impression, but the original Gundam wasn't allowed to be less tall than 18m.

3 While Americans grew fond of mechs (which were derivative of Macross' destroids), Japanese like sleeker mechas highly anthropomorphic. Most Japanese mechas are Super Robots, and usually Super Robots have faces and cheesy features.

4 Were Yukikaze and the like really mainstream?

That's not to be said the story can't be good and someone can't think it has the best mecha ever, but business-wise I don't think it would that profitable. And if you start with too many violence it may end up getting nicher (less problem if you get violent in the later half, people already addicted will still follow the series).

FV

I still think you are wrong. All of these points (except, perhaps, for #1) are opinion taht I don't see support for.

I'm not saying that a Destroid Macross would be the most popular ever, but I don't think it would automatically fail because the mecha fail to transform. Valks are the signiture to Macross, not the point.

[wolfx]

Come on guys, you all know you'd watch macross even if the next one had pokemon like pets that attached themselves to the Valks to make them stronger......

But yeah, I'd think a Destroid side-story would be interesting and in no way failing to rope in fans. In fact, it might be a cool move to sell more Macross related toys and merchandise.

I want a Guvava Plushie.....

[KingNor]

Come on guys, you all know you'd watch macross even if the next one had pokemon like pets that attached themselves to the Valks to make them stronger......

But yeah, I'd think a Destroid side-story would be interesting and in no way failing to rope in fans. In fact, it might be a cool move to sell more Macross related toys and merchandise.

I want a Guvava Plushie.....

i dunno, i only like the really good ones. like the serise, dyrl, and plus.

i'm not into zero, 7, II or any of those wacky ones.

[dna]

Come on guys, you all know you'd watch macross even if the next one had pokemon like pets that attached themselves to the Valks to make them stronger......

Would they be merging with teh protoculture bio-systems inside the mecha?

[KingNor]

Come on guys, you all know you'd watch macross even if the next one had pokemon like pets that attached themselves to the Valks to make them stronger...... 

Would they be merging with teh protoculture bio-systems inside the mecha?

i'd watch poke'mon VS macross

[wolfx]

Come on guys, you all know you'd watch macross even if the next one had pokemon like pets that attached themselves to the Valks to make them stronger...... 

But yeah, I'd think a Destroid side-story would be interesting and in no way failing to rope in fans. In fact, it might be a cool move to sell more Macross related toys and merchandise. 

I want a Guvava Plushie.....

i dunno, i only like the really good ones. like the serise, dyrl, and plus.

i'm not into zero, 7, II or any of those wacky ones.

But you'll still watch it, no?

[KingNor]

Come on guys, you all know you'd watch macross even if the next one had pokemon like pets that attached themselves to the Valks to make them stronger...... 

But yeah, I'd think a Destroid side-story would be interesting and in no way failing to rope in fans. In fact, it might be a cool move to sell more Macross related toys and merchandise. 

I want a Guvava Plushie.....

i dunno, i only like the really good ones. like the serise, dyrl, and plus.

i'm not into zero, 7, II or any of those wacky ones.

But you'll still watch it, no?

i watched enough to know i dont' like them

the story to explain macross vs/team-up poke'mon would have to be SOOOOOO good...

[dna]

the story to explain macross vs/team-up poke'mon would have to be SOOOOOO good...

I could do it...

[Anubis]

the story to explain macross vs/team-up poke'mon would have to be SOOOOOO good... 

I could do it...

Colonly Fleet lands on a potential settling planet, and find a whole bunch of pokemon-ish critters on the planet. As soon as the first 3 people are eaten by the cute looking plant, and a CF pilot is electocuted by a rat, the planet is deemed a health threat and is nuked (like the Klingons did to the Tribbles) but people had unfortunately taken some back to the ship for their kids before hand. Chaos ensues once they multiply.

To keep this on topic, a destroid squad is then revived and sent to play riverdance on the horde of fuzzy critters running around on the street.

Edited March 30, 2004 by Anubis

[dna]

What do you think Guvava is?

[Final Vegeta]

kids arn't nessesarily the "primary" market in japan. there are tons of anime, both featuring mechs and not featuring mechs that are marketed to the older crowd.

I didn't mean to sound harsh, it's not like I meant they wouldn't be marketable. But I don't think they will make that big hit, either.

the kids in japan, like kids everwhere else, like what ever the hell they want to like. i don't remember any giant robots in poke'mon, yu ge oh!, dragon ball, inuyasha or many other kid oreiented anime that have become rediculously popular. toys will sell no mater what they look like if the show is popular enough.

I can agree, but now you are talking apples and oranges. We were specifically talking about mecha shows. You could claim mecha shows aren't big card game sellers like Yugioh and Pokemon, and you would be right, but what would that mean?

Case example: G Gundam. Its toys and the show were popular. Older crowd maybe didn't like it and didn't aknowledged it as Gundam, but it had its success. Why?

Gundam knew from long time an important lesson: children are your future. The real trick is making both children and grown-ups like it. Doraemon is liked by children, and maybe followed by elderly, but teens ignore it, like they ignored G Gundam. And btw Doraemon is several HUNDRED episodes long: is there a show marketed to older crowd that can top it?

Another istance: Harry Potter. Very popular, I think not only in the West. Why? Its primary target was children, but it can be read even by grown-ups. I feel is more children aimed than grown-ups aimed, but I like it, even if I think the characters are lame.

Now, you can do a mecha show that is more grown-ups than children, something with more technical stuff and the like. But if you plan to make a long series, to whom would you aimed it? Gundam knew the answer. Children must like the mecha, but older fans too. It's a tight balance, which sometimes tips rather obviously.

At the same time, airing violence on TV usually creates troubles with parents. This is another hint.

Harry Potter can also teach you another lesson: your public will grow. You must follow it. Thus Shin Getter Robot and Mazinkaiser shows weren't aimed to children, but to grown up long time fans. That's the trouble with Gundam today, it has a lot of long time fans yet it aspire to appeal to fresh fans. You can't just show old Gundam series to children, they'll probably dismiss it.

i really don't see much diffrence in the mechs the americans like over the mechs the japanise like. some people like the anthropomorphic bots, some like the industrial types. i personally don't like the "anthropomorphic" type at all, yet i like the EVA's. so its a toss up! people like what ever hooks them there is no set type that is difiniativly more popular hands down. people want to see plausable machines for the universe they inhabit, gundams wouldn't fit in macross any more than eva's would fit in gundam.

I believe some tastes are culturally acquired. Case istance, Macross 7. Why Americans didn't like it and why it became a hit in Japan? Why Americans bother every time talking about Fire Valkyrie's face plate?

Maybe one of the reasons destroids didn't gain an own show is that Japanese know something we don't. Was there ever a show with mechas similar to destroids? And how many people remember it?

And when you talk about "plausible machines", that doesn't really mean anything. Every machine is plausible in its universe. If you talk about general plausibility, you are quoting only Real Robot or the like. What do you think about Mazinger or Getter Robot? They are the most famous robots besides Gundams, Valkyries and Evangelions. What do you think about a robot that can slice a planet, or create a cyclone in space?

I don't think plausibility is what most people want. Gundam Wing was even incoherent, in that almost always gundams were invulnerable, but sometimes they could be damaged.

Anyway, in Japan the most popular type of mecha is Gundam. Gundam won hands down there. Japaneses seem to favour techno-samurai with big thundering sticks.

i've never seen violence in animation to be THE deciding factor in niche'ing a show. to become a niche' a show would need to LACK other key elements. a show WITH ONLY violence but no story becomes a "violence" show (DBZ?). but a show WITH violence and story, and good characters, will simply be a good show. as long as events in a show make sence, then it won't niche itself.

Good is the opposite of bad, niche is (kinda) the opposite of popular, maybe it's better to say mainstream. They aren't the same thing. I thought niche as a show that maybe can be considered by some people good to very good yet what most people hear of it doesn't turn them excited about.

Well, there are different kinds of violence. In fact it's the higher extremes that make shows niche. But then, I agree violence it's not totally a deciding factor. The appearance of mecha is one, that's way people talk more about 0083 than Turn A.

It's not like kids don't like violence. I remember watching Hokuto no Ken and similar shows when I was a children, although today parents seem more active in patrolling what the children watch. Anime can cause some hysteria.

In Japan what can or cannot be aired on TV changes from time to time. I was surprised hearing Cowboy Bebop got cut of half series when aired on WOWOW, but that's what Japaneses think as violent. Man on man is thinked more violent than robot on robot. Indeed, violence in anime is often shown as transfered. It's a damaged robot, not a hurt man.

The violence itself is shown within several levels of "realism". Sometimes there is simply some flying blood and some red lines, sometimes the blood is really fluid and abundant and stain the place, sometimes they shown the inside of the flesh and the body is deformed.

DBZ for istance is less violent than what you could think. Even when bellies are pierced by a punch, the inside is simply red or black. For a fighting anime, that's the kind of violence you get. You can still show it to children (that was the target), so DBZ became popular. You can claim (and be right) it hadn't aything besides action (well, at first it had parodic elements), but there had been many other titles action-based, and those are not as famous as Dragon Ball.

One of anime curious traits is the ability to minimize great violence or exagerate lessen violence. At first this seems to be done to prevent complaints from parents and yet offer something "interesting" to fans. Maybe there can be something more. If you take iconic girls like Rei Ayanami who are become very popular, they can lose blood yet they don't have wounds. This maybe is tied to cultural inferences I can't understand. Japaneses are inclined to graphical depiction, so sometimes the graphical depiction took the lead on the meaning of the scene. A lot of people get shot in Noir, yet there is no blood. Is it so violent a show?

Anyway, for what I was trying to say, I'll quote Z Gundam as example. It was a show so dark for its times it was ignored.

Then again, the tide is turning, now Japaneses became nichilist and Z Gundam is popular. At the same time, I haven't heard someone trying to imitate it.

In current times, even girls are become a market, so recent shows are blending shonen with shojo and shojo with shonen. By not doing it, you'll end up niche again. Yet shonen is still favoured: shonen animes can have bishonen boy band too.

judging from past mecha shows like macross, eva, gundam, patlabor, bubblegum crisis and many others, violence in early episods will NOT hurt a shows popularity one bit.

I think that's because they weren't really violent. Compare the first two episodes of Evangelion with ep 18. The first episodes are what I call exageration. Over-all little blood and IIRC it wasn't red, lot of thrashing yet little specific hurting.

Parents complained about later episodes, not the firsts.

The first episodes of a series indeed usually must give some "eye-candy" to the watchers. They are usually more serious than what follows. The problem arouses if the first episodes start as a real mess. You can lessen it a bit, but there will be some consistence.

Thinking of Eva, once I've read about a guy, it must be a Japanese, who watched the series and really liked it. His aunt or not very young relative liked it also. Then he heard about the movie The End of Evangelion, and became really excited about it. He watched it and he became both disgusted and embarassed, because he felt his aunt shouldn't see it because he knows she won't like it, and yet he couldn't explain her why.

besides, the point is that many would like to see a show that instead of valks, showcased the destroids, the show doesn't need to FOCUS on the destroids any more than macross FOCUSED on the Valks. just when the pilot hops into something, make it an Excalibur instead of a VF-1.

I thought that was exactly what Basara did, he hopped in an Excalibur

Anyway, you'll miss a lot of poetry. It's like Shin telling Mao she is like a fish-girl, and Mao replying Shin is like the hippo-man of legends

Besides, a transforming mecha in the way a Valkyrie is done keeps the action various. There is some plane action and some robot action. It can be liked both by planes' and robots' fans. Variety of public helps against becoming niche.

It is a difficult conversation, I am sorry if I didn't keep it focused.

FV