evil flying aircraft carriers from space?

[dedalus001]

i was watching Space Fold and i realized that among the Oberths and ARMDs, there were a few aircraft carriers drifting..... IN SPACE? i mean, i understand the Macross having to attatch the Dedalus and Prometheus after the fold, but whats up with this? im not crazy they are actually there. so someone, please explain.

[macplus]

Animation error... anime fiend. I mean, "friend" is the responsible!!! I hope those guys are still to these days being punished with needles on their finger nails!! GGRR!

[the white drew carey]

It could also be a gag.

Sight gags are abound in Macross.

[Prime]

I like the pop can missiles

[dedalus001]

It could also be a gag.

Sight gags are abound in Macross.

writing "cristopher walken" on an awning of a building is one thing, but AIRCRAFT CARRIERS IN SPACE!?!??!?!??!???!?!??!?!??!??!?

aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

its just hilarious seeing them drift here and there among oberths and ARMDS - its not a gag to those poor, oxygenless fools...

[KingNor]

if the prometheus and daudelus could be refitted for space, maybe all of their battle ships could..

perhaps they are thought of as space craft that land in the water, hence they need to look like ships, same way the space shuttle looks like an airplane. the shuttle doesn't need to look like a plane for anyother reason than it is designed to fly in space and in the air.

a ship that floats in space and rests in oceans would do well to be ship like. just an idea.

[Agent ONE]

I thought that the entire carrier in space thing was dumb, including the Deadelous and Promethius... Glad they corrected the mistake in DYRL.

[the white drew carey]

I thought that the entire carrier in space thing was dumb, including the Deadelous and Promethius... Glad they corrected the mistake in DYRL.

I don't think it was that bad.

I liked how the human's inexperience led to them dragging most of South Ataria island and the two carriers out to Pluto with the Macross.

Since there were no ARMD's around, waste not want want not. Let's attach these perfectly fine carriers instead.

[Keith]

I thought that the entire carrier in space thing was dumb, including the Deadelous and Promethius...  Glad they corrected the mistake in DYRL.

I don't think it was that bad.

I liked how the human's inexperience led to them dragging most of South Ataria island and the two carriers out to Pluto with the Macross.

Since there were no ARMD's around, waste not want want not. Let's attach these perfectly fine carriers instead.

Actually, it wasn't inexperience at all. All the shipwide problems, including the massively miscalculated space fold, and the gravity engines ripping away from the ship, were caused by a conflict between the newer ship's software, and the supervision army software that was re-actived by the boobytrap (see Global's Report)

[maxjenius81]

Let that be a lesson kids, if yuore going to rebuild an advanced alien starship, make sure you first run a fdisk to get rid of all the crap and adware placed in the computer by the manufacturer.

[Wabbit]

Let that be a lesson kids, if yuore going to rebuild an advanced alien starship, make sure you first run a fdisk to get rid of all the crap and adware placed in the computer by the manufacturer.

Amen to that.

[ewilen]

I thought that the entire carrier in space thing was dumb, including the Deadelous and Promethius...  Glad they corrected the mistake in DYRL.

I don't think it was that bad.

I liked how the human's inexperience led to them dragging most of South Ataria island and the two carriers out to Pluto with the Macross.

Since there were no ARMD's around, waste not want want not. Let's attach these perfectly fine carriers instead.

Actually, it wasn't inexperience at all. All the shipwide problems, including the massively miscalculated space fold, and the gravity engines ripping away from the ship, were caused by a conflict between the newer ship's software, and the supervision army software that was re-actived by the boobytrap (see Global's Report)

That's not how I remember it.

[Agent ONE]

I thought that the entire carrier in space thing was dumb, including the Deadelous and Promethius...  Glad they corrected the mistake in DYRL.

I don't think it was that bad.

I liked how the human's inexperience led to them dragging most of South Ataria island and the two carriers out to Pluto with the Macross.

Since there were no ARMD's around, waste not want want not. Let's attach these perfectly fine carriers instead.

Actually, it wasn't inexperience at all. All the shipwide problems, including the massively miscalculated space fold, and the gravity engines ripping away from the ship, were caused by a conflict between the newer ship's software, and the supervision army software that was re-actived by the boobytrap (see Global's Report)

That's not how I remember it.

You don't remember it that way because Keith made that up. There wasn't anything even remotely close to that ANYWHERE in SDF-Macross.

[the white drew carey]

IIRC- It was the human's inexperience with folding which lead them to fold so close to the surface of the Earth and drag everything with them.

Even Britai expresses disbelief that anyone would preform a fold so close to a planet.

IE- Folding never done before = Inexperience.

[bsu legato]

When did they discuss the misfold, Episode 5? Episode 14? Can somebody just quote the pertinant dialog.

ie; proof

Edit: On topic, the carriers in question are likely thanks to our buddies at Anime Friend. They probably reused some animation, resulting in oceanborne carriers defending earth with the ARMDs.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I hate you Anime Friend.

Edited March 15, 2004 by bsu legato

[mechaban]

Here's a problem.

IF, in the tv show, the macross had ARMD's attached instead of the carrier's, how would the VF's land (in earths atmosphere) while the Macross was in "ship" mode?

They're sideways! I know they are moveable, but the only way they would have room to rotate them flat would be to extend it's arm out like wings.

The macross would look silly.

And, how would the destroids get to the surface (i.e. mars base) without a dropship?

[the white drew carey]

Here's a problem.

IF, in the tv show, the macross had ARMD's attached instead of the carrier's, how would the VF's land (in earths atmosphere) while the Macross was in "ship" mode?

They're sideways! I know they are moveable, but the only way they would have room to rotate them flat would be to extend it's arm out like wings.

The macross would look silly.

And, how would the destroids get to the surface (i.e. mars base) without a dropship?

Artificial Gravity Generators?

[Opus]

Here's a problem.

IF, in the tv show, the macross had ARMD's attached instead of the carrier's, how would the VF's land (in earths atmosphere) while the Macross was in "ship" mode?

They're sideways! I know they are moveable, but the only way they would have room to rotate them flat would be to extend it's arm out like wings.

The macross would look silly.

And, how would the destroids get to the surface (i.e. mars base) without a dropship?

More importantly, how would they perform the Daedalus attack without the Daedalus?

On another note, I was watching "Booby Trap" at 1/8 speed today and I noticed that right after the scene where two CF battroids are shooting around a corner the one-armed gerwalk VF-1D shows up for a couple of frames and later the scene where Hikaru picks up Minmei and the valk"s arm is shot off shows up at the end of the episode even though that sequence does't occur until the next episode.

[Godzilla]

Here's a problem.

IF, in the tv show, the macross had ARMD's attached instead of the carrier's, how would the VF's land (in earths atmosphere) while the Macross was in "ship" mode?

They're sideways! I know they are moveable, but the only way they would have room to rotate them flat would be to extend it's arm out like wings.

The macross would look silly.

And, how would the destroids get to the surface (i.e. mars base) without a dropship?

More importantly, how would they perform the Daedalus attack without the Daedalus?

Exactly! So no manuever to use which would mean they would be stuck defensively using the pin-point barrier or take on damage when Macross fires her guns which DYRL never showed.

[Boxer]

You could still pull off a Deadalus attack with an ARMD carrier. When you think about it, aren't ARMDs supposed to be better armored for space travel? And besides, the barriers did most of the damage.

If you don't take that logic, how about changing one of the ARMD names to Deadalus?

[buddhafabio]

true, but then it would be called armd manuver

[Opus]

You could still pull off a Deadalus attack with an ARMD carrier. When you think about it, aren't ARMDs supposed to be better armored for space travel? And besides, the barriers did most of the damage.

If you don't take that logic, how about changing one of the ARMD names to Deadalus?

The real damage from the Daedalus attack is when the destroids congregated in the bow let thier missiles fly. I don't think the ARMD platfoms even have any destroids. The Daedalus isn't really a carrier, It's a giand landing craft.

[Boxer]

Well, the problem could be solved by either having them on deck (If you assume the barrier makes an impact high enough to allow the destroids to clear) Or open the inner doors in the underside of the bracket and let 'em have it. Or you could always use the beam cannons, turrets, and other assorted anti-armor goodies an ARMD has pointing forward.

[LePoseur]

true, but then it would be called armd manuver

While not canon at all, the video games that deal with this problem all refer to it as the "ARMD Attack." I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't have the same impact as the original though.

[Opus]

Well, the problem could be solved by either having them on deck (If you assume the barrier makes an impact high enough to allow the destroids to clear) Or open the inner doors in the underside of the bracket and let 'em have it. Or you could always use the beam cannons, turrets, and other assorted anti-armor goodies an ARMD has pointing forward.

You're missing the point. There were no destroids on the SDF. They all came from the Daedalus. So no Daedalus, no Destroids.

[Boxer]

Are you sure there weren't any on the Macross when it took off? Judging by the size of the destroids in some of the shots, I think 645 destroids is cramped to be in the Deadalus if you include helicopters and other vehicles meant for air-to-air warfare. And don't forget the two monsters.

Besides, the Deadalus was just a landing ship, not a fortress-to-be. I'm sure the UN Spacy would be stupid not to put Destroids on the Macross when they're expected to fight Zentran giants.

Edited March 16, 2004 by Boxer

[Opus]

Are you sure there weren't any on the Macross when it took off? Judging by the size of the destroids in some of the shots, I think 645 destroids is a little too cramped to be in the Deadalus, and that's not including the two monsters. Besides, the Deadalus was just a landing ship, not a fortress-to-be. I'm sure the UN Spacy would be stupid not to put Destroids on the Macross when they're expected to fight Zentran giants.

Straight from the compendium.

Destroids: 587 Destroids initially stationed on docked SLV-111 Daedalus, including 2 HWR-00-Mk. II Monster, 85 MBR-07-Mk. II Spartan, and approximately 500 MBR-04 (reduced to 440 subsequently). A third HWR-00-Mk. II Monster, 40 ADR-04-Mk. X Defender, over 20 SDR-04-Mk. XII Phalanx built in onboard factory.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...ross/index.html

[Boxer]

Okay, so i'm wrong.

But there weren't ANY destroids on the Macross? AS I said in my modified post, that's a little stupid. Where they relying on pure valkyire firepower in case of a breach? I would have thought a modest Destroid detatchment would have been added tothe Macross to prevent such a thing, but ah well.

[Opus]

Okay, so i'm wrong.

But there weren't ANY destroids on the Macross? AS I said in my modified post, that's a little stupid. Where they relying on pure valkyire firepower in case of a breach? I would have thought a modest Destroid detatchment would have been added tothe Macross to prevent such a thing, but ah well.

I guess they expected the Valks to follow the breechers in like Max did. Either that or it never occured to them.

[ewilen]

When did they discuss the misfold, Episode 5? Episode 14? Can somebody just quote the pertinant dialog.

The exact lines from Episode 14 come right after a flashback of the artificial gravity systems ripping out and the Macross settling back onto the ground. Global reports

"According to our technical analysis, the unexpected firing of the main gun affected all of the ship's systems, including our Fold system. After the Macross and the nearby island were transported to Pluto's orbit, the Fold system vanished, forcing us to make the long voyage home." (Animeigo translation)

Nothing there about inexperience or folding too close to Earth. Also nothing about Supervision Army software. It's not even clear if the technical analysis blamed the firing of the main gun for both the misfold and the Fold systems' vanishing, or just one of those accidents.

The actual events are in Episode 3. I don't feel like rewatching the episode just now, but here's what Egan Loo has to say. The initial quote is from a Robotech FAQ; the rest is his correction and comment.

"The ship's fold engines are capable of feats previously unheard of to the Zentraedi, including folding while inside a planet's near gravity well and atmosphere." The series mentioned nothing to this effect. The Zentradi were surprised when Macross folded in the third episode, but it was not because the Macross did something that the Zentradi could not do (which, as misfold demonstrated, the Macross could not do at this point either). They were not perplexed at how, but why -- why the Humans would fold not only the ship, but endanger also an island and a good portion of the ocean without apparent need or reason. [...] Later Macross projects (Movie, Plus, Seven), which demonstrate that Humans have improved the fold technology since Space War I, do show folds occuring near a celestial object's gravity well (in one case, near enough to a star to be threatened by its corona), as well as within a planet's atmosphere.

So Egan says that the misfold was caused by folding close to the Earth, but he admits that at some point, humans did develop the technology to fold close to gravity wells. In short, Global's report contradicts Egan. Is Egan simply drawing inference from the animation, or does he have some special insight either from books or from conversations with Kawamori? I don't know. If he's wrong, then it could be that humans had already improved the fold technology to allow folds close to a planet's surface, but the firing of the main gun caused the system to malfunction.

[azrael]

IIRC- It was the human's inexperience with folding which lead them to fold so close to the surface of the Earth and drag everything with them.

Even Britai expresses disbelief that anyone would preform a fold so close to a planet.

IE- Folding never done before = Inexperience.

Actually, Keith is correct, to a point. Inexperience did play a role as they had no idea what would happen. Claudia even expressed her doubts about folding so close to to the ground. Global opted to go for it anyways. In "Global's Report", Global states that the SA's old software caused ship-wide malfunctions. And since the fold drive went missing afterwards, the answer is unclear.

As we saw later, the energy field generated by folding is practically skin tight. Now if Macross's fold drive is suppose to act like that, why did it create a huge field where as in M7, the fleet folds from Rax and doesn't bring the lake they were in or when folding to Varuata in episode 48, why did the fighters have to land on M7, then fold, then launch again? Or better yet, why do fighters/vessels have individual fold boosters/drives? Why do they not have 1 fold drive generate the field to encompass all vessels in the group?

The unfortunate answer is, we don't have the original Macross fold drive to run another test on. Keith may not be right, but he's not entirely wrong. But this is something for another thread.

[ewilen]

Okay, just skipped around a bit in episodes 3 & 4. I couldn't find anything which really attempts to explain why the fold system malfunctioned. Before the fold, Claudia expresses misgivings about folding close to the surface--but it's not clear if that's because she thinks it won't work, or because she thinks it could be dangerous for the people on the ground. During the fold, Britai and Exedore express surprise and one of them asks whether a fold so close to the surface is even possible.

Personally, I've always believed Egan Loo's interpretation--initiating a fold close to a gravity well can have unexpected consequences--but it's not entirely supported by what's in the cartoon. And Global's analysis of the problems would help explain why the artificial gravity generators malfunctioned, which has always been an annoyance to me. I mean, the engineers who overhauled the Macross must have calculated the mass of the ship and the strength of the fittings holding the gravity generators in place; that would have told them the maximum G force allowable (combination of local gravity conditions + acceleration). This in turn should have been set in software to prevent the generators from pulling out of their mounts. There also probably should have been sensors to measure the strain on the mounts. But if the firing of the main gun caused internal damage, etc., that could explain why the generators tore out of the hull.

Edited March 16, 2004 by ewilen

[ewilen]

In "Global's Report", Global states that the SA's old software caused ship-wide malfunctions.

Maybe I missed that part just now. Do you remember when in the episode he says that?

[JB0]

I thought that the entire carrier in space thing was dumb, including the Deadelous and Promethius...  Glad they corrected the mistake in DYRL.

I don't think it was that bad.

I liked how the human's inexperience led to them dragging most of South Ataria island and the two carriers out to Pluto with the Macross.

Since there were no ARMD's around, waste not want want not. Let's attach these perfectly fine carriers instead.

Actually, it wasn't inexperience at all. All the shipwide problems, including the massively miscalculated space fold, and the gravity engines ripping away from the ship, were caused by a conflict between the newer ship's software, and the supervision army software that was re-actived by the boobytrap (see Global's Report)

That's not how I remember it.

You don't remember it that way because Keith made that up. There wasn't anything even remotely close to that ANYWHERE in SDF-Macross.

As has been stated already, you are wrong, Global Report DOES have something similar to that in it.

Now apologize.

[azrael]

In "Global's Report", Global states that the SA's old software caused ship-wide malfunctions.

Maybe I missed that part just now. Do you remember when in the episode he says that?

Episode time: 4m:17s.

According to your technical analysis, the unexpected firing of the main guns affected all of the ship's systems.

It's an ambiguous phrase (computers didn't exactly have the amount of attention in 1980 as they do now...) since it could me circuit board or software. But in either case, a program had to have interpretted the sensor readings as hostile and such, overrided a manual overide. So there has to have been some software running.