Zovreign Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 I think what Agent One is saying makes sense. I also think that's why Yamato is making thier VF-0 small and relatively inexpensive. The VF-0 is targeted at the newer younger fans who were introduced to Macross by Mac Zero while the expensive stuff is reserved for 25-30 year old collectors who can afford it. Exactly. Yamato is targetting 25-30 year olds with this, we got more disposable income then a 5-15 year old. Case in point I own several yamato toys, and my friend whos my age has 2 kids, he has some of the cheaper branprestos and plans to get a bandai reissue eventually, but he and his son likes the yamatos but they stick their nose up at the price. His words was "why would I pay 150$ for a toy?" Yamato isn't targetting kids with 80-200$ toys, no parent will foot the bill for it, ask a kid if they want a new game system or a macross toy, guess what they will likely pick. Anywho I'm talking about the north american market but I'm sure the same thing applys to Japan. We had some kids over at our studio last year on a tour and when a bunch saw all the macross toys and models I had at my desk they all shouted "gundam!". I didn't bother to correct them since mentioning macross would only gather confused looks. Quote
Nani?! Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 Though I understand your point that fan bases grow and expand with new series (Mac +, Mac 0) and reruns of the original series, yes, many of the current fans are those who watched the show as kids in the early 80's. Macross Plus and 0 were never brought into this because they are not nearly as popular as the original show. If you see the simple decisions yamato made in the creation of the toys themselves, you can clearly see that these weren't specifically meant to be in the hands of 12 year old fan. I never said they were meant for 12 year olds because that would be silly. They're more model like They are not model like... by any stretch of imagination. it still doesnt change the fact that the bigger portion of yamato's profit comes from the original viewers of the series It still doesn't change the fact that very few japanese fans are loyal to a show. Most of them move on to greener pastures after the show is done. To base toy sales on a demographic that will probably not be there, interested in toys, or willing to pay said price, is insane at best. You just listed a bunch of your assumptions with that post and you're saying that some of our arguments aren't based on anything? Many people get drawn into Macross through newer series like Macross Plus and Zero. Given the shorter amount of time since they released, their popularity isn't as grossly dwarfed as you assume. - Also, you thinking 12 year old fans as being silly is no different than the fumed argument you're presenting to us and our point that the original viewers are the PRIMARY market. - They are not model like... by any stretch of imagination. you took my words out of context. I said they are more model-like than the bandai's and the takatoku's. Do you own a 1/48...? and have you seen the customs that these babies are the canvas' to? please... dont take what I say out of context... - Lastly, like fifbeat mentioned, you grossly underestimate the loyalty of original fans. If people simply move on like you suggest, why in the heck would a company like yamato use an old series ("that people moved away from already") like macross as their core business? You seem very ardent with your arguments, but I suggest you have the knowledge to back it up if you wish to argue so passionately... Really my last post regarding this topic.... Quote
Protoplast Posted March 9, 2004 Author Posted March 9, 2004 Agent One, you atleast understood my reasoning while most youth use their self-righteous aspect to reason.. Nothing wrong with some youthful enthusiasm however.. as I stated before.. Some of you guys here who were born in the 80s after Macross was conceived.. I really think if you are still in school and live off parents, that you don't get yourself in debt by attaching yourself to a collecting hobby.. Yamato once targeted the 25+ collector, who demands a high quality poseable toy, playability is not important.. then came the Internet Boom and these toys became easily accessible with the internet and anybody 13 or older with a PC can see the toys and steal your parent's credit card and order a few Macross toys.. When I was a kid, my toys didn't cost more than $3-15, my dad bought me my first Takatoku VF-1J and it costed 1300yen, which was roughly $8USD at the time in conversion. The quality was superior to today because it came in a nice box, foam cushion, and every joint area had either screws or some diecast and the plastic was solid. I take my time to apply the decals and I messed up in some areas.. That was the beauty of the toys at that time.. Nowadays I see kids on this forum complain when decals aren't applied and they think they paid a lot of money and demand to have decals applied for free... Quote
rdenham Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 The pricing issue is a marketing one.The focus of my MBA revolved around value and targeted pricing, I know something about this. Guys, Don't take it personally, it is Yamato's decision, but the 'why' part is obvious. Agent ONE, MBA aside if Yamato is trying to sell to older collectors exclusively why do they sell their products at Toy’s R Us in Japan. The cost issue is directly related to the fact that those a** h**** at Harmony Gold won’t allow Macross products to be sold through normal US domestic retailers. Quote
fifbeat Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 (edited) Agent ONE, MBA aside if Yamato is trying to sell to older collectors exclusively why do they sell their products at Toy’s R Us in Japan. The cost issue is directly related to the fact that those a** h**** at Harmony Gold won’t allow Macross products to be sold through normal US domestic retailers. My guess is because a Japanese Toys R Us has a more mature mix (adults and kids); while America's Toys R Us is strictly for the kiddies. Hell, some McDonald joints in other parts of the world serve beer. "Would you like to super-size that Bud?" As far as those HG asses, they're now selling Macross-tagged products. Go figure. Edited March 9, 2004 by fifbeat Quote
Protoplast Posted March 9, 2004 Author Posted March 9, 2004 The pricing issue is a marketing one.The focus of my MBA revolved around value and targeted pricing, I know something about this. Guys, Don't take it personally, it is Yamato's decision, but the 'why' part is obvious. Agent ONE, MBA aside if Yamato is trying to sell to older collectors exclusively why do they sell their products at Toy’s R Us in Japan. The cost issue is directly related to the fact that those a** h**** at Harmony Gold won’t allow Macross products to be sold through normal US domestic retailers. Toys R Us in Japan carry a wide variety of toys and toy collecting in Japan span ages from teens to those in their 40s. There are many otakus in Japan that are in their 30-40s now and still collect as a passion.. not for playing or investing.. simply the enjoyment.. Toys R Us also carries the SOC and Bandai's Perfect Grade line which are marked for 15 yrs or older. Compare the US toys R us, they stock mostly low grade or consumer friendly toys which have marked labels on them so idiot parents today can't sue if a Perfect Grade model kit poke their kids eye out.. Quote
Agent ONE Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 I think what Agent One is saying makes sense. I also think that's why Yamato is making thier VF-0 small and relatively inexpensive. The VF-0 is targeted at the newer younger fans who were introduced to Macross by Mac Zero while the expensive stuff is reserved for 25-30 year old collectors who can afford it. Totally true.. Great observation! I forgot about the Zero. Quote
do not disturb Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 With all due respect.... how do you base that? On the assuption that 90% of the fans are those who watched the show back in 1982? not trying to flame but use logic. logically speaking, lets say there is a age demographic... the age demographic is 30 years old....now how many 30 year olds have a $120 to blow on a toy? the age demographic is 18 years old....now how many 18 year olds have a $120 to blow on a toy??? logically speaking, lets say there is no age demographic... now how many 30 year olds have a $120 to blow on a toy? now how many 18 year olds have a $120 to blow on a toy? why would any smart business target a age group that statistically has less money and/or disposable income? even if you changed the cost to $50, it would still be the same result. this is called logic, and people that run a good business use it...or atleast expected to us it. you can argue that their target audience is parents but then, what time of the day are all those toy commmercials on TV? dads still at work and moms is busy with dinner....and don't forget moms could give a rats ass about the next toy you just "have to have". and if its a high ticket item, you're ass is waiting til christmas. Quote
Nightbat Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 Actually, an age-poll here a while ago proved that most Macross fans are 26-31 so there's something to be said about that argument and don't forget 18-25 year olds have a higher income than those younger were they the TF-Armada generation chances are the toys would be cheaper just look at what agegroup the alternators are aimed at and their price Quote
EXO Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 So who is the YF-19 targetted to? because clearly no one is listening to the them... Quote
Agent ONE Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 So who is the YF-19 targetted to? because clearly no one is listening to the them... Hey, target marketing doesn't always work. I actually can't really imagine what the M+ demographic really was. Quote
EXO Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 So who is the YF-19 targetted to? because clearly no one is listening to the them... Hey, target marketing doesn't always work. I actually can't really imagine what the M+ demographic really was. Well, M+ came out in 1994, so according to you reasoning, people that want a 1/48 maybe finally able to get it in 2014, because that's when they'll have the money and jobs to be able to afford it. Maybe they'll give M+ fans a break and release the 1/72 redesign halfway thru that mark... in 2009! Quote
Agent ONE Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 So who is the YF-19 targetted to? because clearly no one is listening to the them... Hey, target marketing doesn't always work. I actually can't really imagine what the M+ demographic really was. Well, M+ came out in 1994, so according to you reasoning, people that want a 1/48 maybe finally able to get it in 2014, because that's when they'll have the money and jobs to be able to afford it. Maybe they'll give M+ fans a break and release the 1/72 redesign halfway thru that mark... in 2009! If it maintains popularity, it wouldn't suprise me. Quote
bandit29 Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 So who is the YF-19 targetted to? because clearly no one is listening to the them... Well I was 20 in 1994 when I saw Macross Plus and I'm almost 30 now(barf). when was the first YF-19 released 4-5 years ago? I was around 25-26 then. I'd say I'm Yamato's target range. Quote
Blaine23 Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 Well... it has been reported several times that the Macross Plus toys were basically Toycom/Yamato's attempt to impress Big West enough to get a new license to make VF-1 toys, as well as gauge fan interest in new transforming Macross toys, both in Japan and the U.S. (obviously the U.S. part of things ended up setting off a rights debacle). So in that case it was more of a market test, but I'd assume that the target age range was similar to what they're doing now. Of course, Macross Plus is a newer anime and those toys were priced far cheaper by Toycom than what they ended up costing to import. And far cheaper than Yamato's higher price point items, like the 1/48 and the Q-Rau. Quote
pfunk Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 So who is the YF-19 targetted to? because clearly no one is listening to the them... Hey, target marketing doesn't always work. I actually can't really imagine what the M+ demographic really was. Well, M+ came out in 1994, so according to you reasoning, people that want a 1/48 maybe finally able to get it in 2014, because that's when they'll have the money and jobs to be able to afford it. Maybe they'll give M+ fans a break and release the 1/72 redesign halfway thru that mark... in 2009! If it maintains popularity, it wouldn't suprise me. That would be Par for the course. As far as target marketing goes, everything thats said is true as far as Agents stand point and the others that have a grasp on it. one thing to also remember here is that even thought they have enough fan base and market for th etoy, doesnt neccisarily mean that it wil come out. most companies like to invest thier money close to the begining of the siscal?? year so that they will have a better idea of budget at the end of the 1/4. And just because they have a market "buy the balls" doesnt mean they need to keep releasing new product, common business sence is run it till it starts to fall off and have something in your back pocket, but dont release it(OR anounce it) untill stocks fall to a certain point. This is probably one of the many reasons why Yamato wont allow Graham to speak of certain product Quote
EXO Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 siscal?? fiscal... Well I don't have much business sense, but I just hear it from a friend of a friend's cousin who's brother's wife's nephew... had a friend... That and I like to yank on M+ fans chains... Quote
pfunk Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 siscal?? fiscal... Well I don't have much business sense, but I just hear it from a friend of a friend's cousin who's brother's wife's nephew... had a friend... That and I like to yank on M+ fans chains... thanks, and glad to see your to your old self Im a pretty good business person and get drawn into (inadvertantly most of the time) in the "politics" of the automotive side of things,,,,which sucks BTW I have to say Hats Off to all who can stomach and work in Sales/Marketing/Purchasing,,I know I would end up knocking someones head off with a 2x4 Quote
Nani?! Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 Well... it has been reported several times that the Macross Plus toys were basically Toycom/Yamato's attempt to impress Big West enough to get a new license to make VF-1 toys, as well as gauge fan interest in new transforming Macross toys, both in Japan and the U.S. (obviously the U.S. part of things ended up setting off a rights debacle).So in that case it was more of a market test, but I'd assume that the target age range was similar to what they're doing now. Of course, Macross Plus is a newer anime and those toys were priced far cheaper by Toycom than what they ended up costing to import. And far cheaper than Yamato's higher price point items, like the 1/48 and the Q-Rau. Yeah... I remember preordering the yf 19, yf 21 and the vf 11b for $40 bucks each. Everytime I think of those days and compare to the prices I pay now, it just makes me wanna go ballistic on HG. Also, looking at the quality of Macross plus valks they made then and comparing it to the 1/48's really make me feel optimistic about what yamato will do with another try at Macross plus. Anyway, gosh am I the only one who feels yamato will release more than just another yf 19 FP? or am I being too optimistic? Quote
amptor Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 I'd agree to some degree of it being expensive. I don't believe that stuff made by Yamato is very expensive to manufacture, possibly even cheaper to make than some $10 Maisto 1:18 scale model cars that you can buy at Costco. What upsets me about Yamato is they will produce a valk for a while then stop. Then if there's enough demand, they'll produce a lot more of that valk (I heard this happened in particular with the VF-1S Strike with full armor) So I was about to buy that one, but I still haven't yet. $80+ for that is rediculous because it isn't very collectable and the value just virtually is nonexistant unless for personal sake. Now I'm missing a few Yamato and I have all Bandai (I think Bandai were all worth it, even though I spent too much on a few of them) But at least Bandai manufactures a certain amount to sell based on sales figures and projections then stops. They don't seem to purpousely make "limited edition" stuff (e.g. Yamato VF-1A TRU CF) and they don't seem too interested in really making valkyries ever again to begin with, sadly. I was hoping for the VF-1S Hikaru Strike and the other two like the rest of you people. I suppose the VE-1 and VT-1 weren't reproduced because there's really no reintroduction of the movie into Japanese theatres or something. Just my guess. Could be a licensing issue too. Well I've just been waiting for the Yamato to come down in price. I got a Hikaru DYRL VF-1A off ebay for about $30 shipped a while back, I can't see paying much more than that for a VF-1D, since they are not rare by any means. So I figure if I wait a bit, the price will fall. They sure used an ugly shade of orange on their valks didn't they. I used to possess a VF-1D but the guy who sold it to me made it seem like it was misb, when it wasn't so he got it shipped back to him Quote
amptor Posted March 9, 2004 Posted March 9, 2004 Well... it has been reported several times that the Macross Plus toys were basically Toycom/Yamato's attempt to impress Big West enough to get a new license to make VF-1 toys, as well as gauge fan interest in new transforming Macross toys, both in Japan and the U.S. (obviously the U.S. part of things ended up setting off a rights debacle).So in that case it was more of a market test, but I'd assume that the target age range was similar to what they're doing now. Of course, Macross Plus is a newer anime and those toys were priced far cheaper by Toycom than what they ended up costing to import. And far cheaper than Yamato's higher price point items, like the 1/48 and the Q-Rau. Yeah... I remember preordering the yf 19, yf 21 and the vf 11b for $40 bucks each. Everytime I think of those days and compare to the prices I pay now, it just makes me wanna go ballistic on HG. Also, looking at the quality of Macross plus valks they made then and comparing it to the 1/48's really make me feel optimistic about what yamato will do with another try at Macross plus. Anyway, gosh am I the only one who feels yamato will release more than just another yf 19 FP? or am I being too optimistic? I remember preordering them for $30-$40 each somewhere around there off valkyrie exchange. That was a fiasco, I bought my first valk off Robozone and really never bought anything from VE since they didn't do anything at all for their preorder customers. Their prices tend to be average to too high anyways. Quote
Neova Posted March 10, 2004 Posted March 10, 2004 (edited) There will always be multiple views on collecting. If you work at toy company, the best defination is that premium toys (high price, high quality) are aimed at collectors while mass market is for everyone else and perhaps a cheapo line for little tikes. I talked to toy dealers and even they agree that certain toys are "expensive" when compared to other toys. Its part of the culture in toy collecting to compare toys in its price points and target market. With advances that you see increasing quality, articulation, better engineering, production and most importantly, competition, you can't help it. Hard core collector or not. Toy collecting is a passion that doesn't have fixed monentary requirements to be part of the club. Kakikazi summed it up the best: at the end, as I know, the "real collector" always a smart man for bargain~! Amen to that my toy collecting brother. Edit: I was going to say something about target demographic but that horse has been blown up to itty bitty wittle pieces by Agent One in his 2 Bazillion dollar Q-Rau Strike Armor against Abombz $10 RMB value knockoff Chunky Monkey (86th re-issue). :D BTW: Agent one is right. Edited March 10, 2004 by Neova Quote
Macross_Fanboy Posted March 10, 2004 Posted March 10, 2004 I cry expensive because I don't have a job!!!!!! Quote
Eternal_D Posted March 10, 2004 Posted March 10, 2004 There will always be multiple views on collecting. If you work at toy company, the best defination is that premium toys (high price, high quality) are aimed at collectors while mass market is for everyone else and perhaps a cheapo line for little tikes.I talked to toy dealers and even they agree that certain toys are "expensive" when compared to other toys. Its part of the culture in toy collecting to compare toys in its price points and target market. With advances that you see increasing quality, articulation, better engineering, production and most importantly, competition, you can't help it. Hard core collector or not. Toy collecting is a passion that doesn't have fixed monentary requirements to be part of the club. Kakikazi summed it up the best: at the end, as I know, the "real collector" always a smart man for bargain~! Amen to that my toy collecting brother. has yamato ever thought about the toy collector? toy collectors(such as myself) are crazy. we buy every variant, every scheme, everything cool and most likely in multiples. ranging from diecast to figures to valks. would I have bought multiples of the Q-rau if it was moderately priced...as would many of us on MW. how smart was it for yamato to charge what they charge not knowing or maybe knowing this? either way, it's pretty stupid if you ask me. demand(for macross stuff) not so good + high prices = don't expect anymore enemy mechs due to poor sales and as far as the 1/60 monster goes...who the hell are they marketing THAT to?? how many huge ass japanese homes have you been in in japan? that thing will be the size of their living room. good luck selling that instead of a nice sized SDF-1. and yah, if price is like $300(but doubtful now that I've seen the q-raus price) I'm definitely getting 1....or 2. 1 to keep my dog company in the yard. Quote
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