Why do people cry expensive?

[fifbeat]

Collectors don't care about price because they know 'you get what you pay for' but the little kids just lack the maturity to see that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying it takes a "collector" to know the true value of a Macross toy? So, if we're kids, we're just being immature because we think a $100 toy is expensive? I think the you should give the "kids" a little more credit, buddy. Or maybe I'm reading your post wrong.

I'm in my 20's, I have several mechs, but I'm not a "collector" (frankly, I'd like to be, but I don't have the money or the time to be a hardcore Macross collector); however, I sure as hell know what's worth what and what isn't -- but then again, it IS a matter of opinion.

But crap... some things are just apparant. Dare I say it?

Edited March 8, 2004 by fifbeat

[Stamen0083]

Collectors don't care about price because they know 'you get what you pay for' but the little kids just lack the maturity to see that.

Some kids understand the concept of you get what you paid for, but how many kids can actually execute that concept satisfactorily? Not all of us are rich, spoiled brats.

[robodog562000]

It's difficult to value new toys because they've been out for only so long. We end up paying what the dealers ask. Toys like the 1/48 line have size and icredible detail which cannot be matched with vintage valkyries, but the new valkyries aren't vintage. I do like both eras of Valkyries but collect more vintage. I read reviews and listen to the conversations going on. In my opinion I honestly don't feel many of yamatos Vf's are overpriced but may not fit in everyones budget. I would just save up my money and buy the valkyries I like and when you can get something for cheaper why not. You' re paying for the demand, detail, and materials of the toy. One example of an out of this world toy is the Halfeye Getter Robo. When I see pics the toy still blows my mind.

In the past I've payed more than a thousand dollars for a toy. My friends thought I was crazy. I really had to save my money. Would I do it again? Yes, If I really wanted the toy I would. The only thing I miss in many new toys is I prefer diecast metal. I know some people don't care for it and we surely won't die if a toy doesn't have it, but I like it. Several of my vintage toys have it. I like to see a toy age with metal. It's an aging piece of art. Diecast metal has this cold heavy feel. Even nicks in the paint where the diecast is showing can be neat.

Comparison of valkyries depends on the person. Of course there will be differences and maybe it won't matter for others. We are all collectors.

[Agent ONE]

Macross products are priced for the Macross target market, this Macross target market consists of people who were kids when SDF-M came out in 1982, therefore they are older now and have jobs, are out of college and have the money to spend on collector's items.

If you don't fall into the primary demographic, don't worry about. The products aren't ment for you.

Look at it this way, I want a new Maserati, but I can't afford it right now... This doesn't bother me because the car isn't really targeted at my age group anyway. Maybe when I am in my late 30's or early 40's I will be able to have one.

[Abombz!!]

Macross products are priced for the Macross target market, this Macross target market consists of people who were kids when SDF-M came out in 1982, therefore they are older now and have jobs, are out of college and have the money to spend on collector's items.

If you don't fall into the primary demographic, don't worry about. The products aren't ment for you. 

Look at it this way, I want a new Maserati, but I can't afford it right now... This doesn't bother me because the car isn't really targeted at my age group anyway.  Maybe when I am in my late 30's or early 40's I will be able to have one.

Hmmm... thats a pretty flawed reasoning.

I wasn't even born when SDF Macross came out, but I watched it before many of the older members here. Worse.... I was introduced to SDF Macross by SDF Macross itself unlike 80% of you who were brought it by Robotech. Just because I wasn't already wearing a bra by the time SDF Macross came doesn't make me less of a fan.

Please don't give me this crap about the toys being expensive has anything to do with them being targeted for an older audience. The toys are expensive because they are of a rather short run, and because Yamato wants to make a profit out of them.

I'm not out of college yet, I'm 21 years old and still dependent on my parents (doesn't mean they are willing to just hand out cash. They are cheaper then all of you put together).... I have 1 Qrau on the way, and I dispise the 1/48 line, not because of its price. Why doesn't the price of the Qrau bother me? Because I'm a fan of the design, and I'm willing to overlook the price just so I can own something I like. It has nothing to do with this primary demographic bullshit.

No offense.... I have seen many dumb posts in this forum.... and that one ranks pretty high on the list... and it stinks of age elitism.

Edited March 9, 2004 by Abombz!!

[Agent ONE]

Abombz, you are not in the target market.

The pricing issue is a marketing one.

The focus of my MBA revolved around value and targeted pricing, I know something about this.

Guys,

Don't take it personally, it is Yamato's decision, but the 'why' part is obvious.

[Agent ONE]

...and it stinks of age elitism.

That is the cutest thing I have ever heard from Abombz..

[ewilen]

Abombz, you are not in the target market.

The pricing issue is a marketing one.

The focus of my MBA revolved around value and targeted pricing, I know something about this.

Guys,

Don't take it personally, it is Yamato's decision, but the 'why' part is obvious.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying the price is completely unconnected to the cost of production, supply/demand curves (elasticity of demand), and maximization of profit?

[Mr March]

I'm soon going to purchase a $1,300 camera and I can afford it. But I'm sure as hell going to bitch about it when I want too

There's a difference complaining about something you can't afford and complaining how much you paid for something you can. Yamato's are still too damn expensive, yet I comfortably own three. No credit here

It all depends upon what you as an individual get out of what you purchase, not whether you're trying to out do the "Jone's". Most people look at me like I'm crazy purchasing the expensive stuff I buy and it's probably going to get worse before it gets better (Canon XL-1S, you will be mine!). But I get more out of those "expensive pieces of crap" than paying $400 to dye my hair green and get a pedicure (yes, my last girlfriend was insane).

I say cry expensive all you want. I know I am

[Abombz!!]

Abombz, you are not in the target market.

The pricing issue is a marketing one.

The focus of my MBA revolved around value and targeted pricing, I know something about this.

Guys,

Don't take it personally, it is Yamato's decision, but the 'why' part is obvious.

If you say you know about this... how can you still make this argument? Just because, at your age, you don't have a problem paying for a toy, what makes you think that everyone between the ages of 26 to 30, is like you? Not everyone with money will swallow a price tag like that... no matter how much of a fan he or she is.

Just because you are well out of college and already have a paying job... doesn't mean you can either afford the toy or accept the price tag.

[Agent ONE]

Abombz, you are not in the target market. 

The pricing issue is a marketing one.

The focus of my MBA revolved around value and targeted pricing, I know something about this.

Guys,

Don't take it personally, it is Yamato's decision, but the 'why' part is obvious.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying the price is completely unconnected to the cost of production, supply/demand curves (elasticity of demand), and maximization of profit?

no, of course not...

However when Yamato decides they are going to produce a Macross toy they FIRST look at how much they should charge to hit the perceived value price point for the demographic they are looking for.

IE they say, I think we can get about $120 for this product.

Marketing dictates everything! the priorities usually go like this:

1. Price (how much can we charge)

2. Product (how much quality can we put in at that price)

3. Promotion (at this price and quality what adjustments do we want to make to make this easier to promote)

4. Distribution (what issues relating to pricing and product definition should we change to make it easier to distribute)

[Agent ONE]

Abombz, you are not in the target market. 

The pricing issue is a marketing one.

The focus of my MBA revolved around value and targeted pricing, I know something about this.

Guys,

Don't take it personally, it is Yamato's decision, but the 'why' part is obvious.

If you say you know about this... how can you still make this argument? Just because, at your age, you don't have a problem paying for a toy, what makes you think that everyone between the ages of 26 to 30, is like you? Not everyone with money will swallow a price tag like that... no matter how much of a fan he or she is.

Just because you are well out of college and already have a paying job... doesn't mean you can either afford the toy or accept the price tag.

I see what you are saying, but this isn't about YOU and ME. Its about what Yamato thinks are its customers.

[fifbeat]

This topic is getting out of hand...

I'm going to close it soon.

[Abombz!!]

Abombz, you are not in the target market. 

The pricing issue is a marketing one.

The focus of my MBA revolved around value and targeted pricing, I know something about this.

Guys,

Don't take it personally, it is Yamato's decision, but the 'why' part is obvious.

If you say you know about this... how can you still make this argument? Just because, at your age, you don't have a problem paying for a toy, what makes you think that everyone between the ages of 26 to 30, is like you? Not everyone with money will swallow a price tag like that... no matter how much of a fan he or she is.

Just because you are well out of college and already have a paying job... doesn't mean you can either afford the toy or accept the price tag.

I see what you are saying, but this isn't about YOU and ME. Its about what Yamato thinks are its customers.

And like I told you.... it would be insane to ignore the countless of new fans who joined the fandom after the many times Macross was rebroadcast. Specially since the original fans could've moved on after a year or so, likehow it happens with countless successful other anime shows.

[Vostok 7]

I'm not out of college yet, I'm 21 years old and still dependent on my parents (doesn't mean they are willing to just hand out cash. They are cheaper then all of you put together).... I have 1 Qrau on the way, and I dispise the 1/48 line, not because of its price. Why doesn't the price of the Qrau bother me? Because I'm a fan of the design, and I'm willing to overlook the price just so I can own something I like. It has nothing to do with this primary demographic bullshit.

Pretty much the same for me except 1) not in college and 2) I'm not a huge fan of the 1/48 but I still bought 1, and only 1 and 1 is all I'm ever going to buy.

Frankly I could care less about the price of the Q-Rau... It's a Q-Rau. Who else makes a Q-Rau?! Even better, who else makes a Q-Rau this good? I don't see Bandai making one!

Vostok 7

[Nightbat]

The friends in my agegroup all see things they'd love to have but can't afford

This doesn't mean I'm making a killing with what I do

I just purposely miss out on things they have -my own house -my own car -sports -going out -vacations

if I were to have even one of those things my situation would be rather different so far

the things I do have, don't cut into my macross budget but it won't stay this way forever

Just don't think of me as an Elitist because I buy all the items I want -at (almost) whatever price

there's a lot I leave out to get them

as for manufacturers killing the collectors market?

If you are a collector, sentimental value should rank Highest, financial value is only important for the insurance

these same collectors drive up the price for their items and the ones they want to

buy themselves -a classic case of shooting yourself in the foot: driving up the prices gets noticed by manufacturers who will realize there's still money to be made

reissues are for a (financial) collector an example of betting on the wrong horse

they should be seen as a godsend for "real" collectors who can finally complete their collection without paying through the nose

true if those reissues have been modified to a lesser quality, the old ones would still be

more valuable (sentimental)

as for newer designs being so expensive:

the bandai reissues are cheaper for a reason: no cost except for parts, labour

and transport

a 20 year old design has no more developmentcosts

if there were, developing a 1/55 today would make it cost more than an MPC

which makes it come mighty close to a brandspanking new Yamato 1/48

-and the endresult is a Valkyrie that in comparison to a 1/48 is enormously out of proportion

[ewilen]

when Yamato decides they are going to produce a Macross toy they FIRST look at how much they should charge to hit the perceived value price point for the demographic they are looking for.

For all its brevity, that's actually a very enlightening response. Thanks.

[Abombz!!]

However when Yamato decides they are going to produce a Macross toy they FIRST look at how much they should charge to hit the perceived value price point for the demographic they are looking for.

Right.... but it wishful thinking and bad business decision to do that. Why? Because they would be expecting ppl at that age to just be consumer-whores and buy the toys for the simple novelty of being macross toys.

[Agent ONE]

However when Yamato decides they are going to produce a Macross toy they FIRST look at how much they should charge to hit the perceived value price point for the demographic they are looking for.

Right.... but it wishful thinking and bad business decision to do that. Why? Because they would be expecting ppl at that age to just be consumer-whores and buy the toys for the simple novelty of being macross toys.

It isn't BAD business... Its ALL business, thats just the way marketing works.

[Abombz!!]

However when Yamato decides they are going to produce a Macross toy they FIRST look at how much they should charge to hit the perceived value price point for the demographic they are looking for.

Right.... but it wishful thinking and bad business decision to do that. Why? Because they would be expecting ppl at that age to just be consumer-whores and buy the toys for the simple novelty of being macross toys.

It isn't BAD business... Its ALL business, thats just the way marketing works.

And I'm telling you... thats not the way Yamato went about it!!!

No way in hell the average Macross fan age is 25-30.

[Agent ONE]

However when Yamato decides they are going to produce a Macross toy they FIRST look at how much they should charge to hit the perceived value price point for the demographic they are looking for.

Right.... but it wishful thinking and bad business decision to do that. Why? Because they would be expecting ppl at that age to just be consumer-whores and buy the toys for the simple novelty of being macross toys.

It isn't BAD business... Its ALL business, thats just the way marketing works.

And I'm telling you... thats not the way Yamato went about it!!!

No way in hell the average Macross fan age is 25-30.

I'm not saying that Yamato decided that ALL Macross fans were 25-30... They decided they were going to target Macross fans who were 25-30 (or lets say 30+).

[hevangel2]

Why not cry expensive?

What's the harm for crying expensive?

If Yamato really read the feedback from customers,

maybe they will lower the price if enough people,

and make a big fuss out of the high price

Please note that we never cry the toy is over-quality.

All we want is the same (or better) toy in cheaper price.

Had we done anything wrong?

[Abombz!!]

However when Yamato decides they are going to produce a Macross toy they FIRST look at how much they should charge to hit the perceived value price point for the demographic they are looking for.

Right.... but it wishful thinking and bad business decision to do that. Why? Because they would be expecting ppl at that age to just be consumer-whores and buy the toys for the simple novelty of being macross toys.

It isn't BAD business... Its ALL business, thats just the way marketing works.

And I'm telling you... thats not the way Yamato went about it!!!

No way in hell the average Macross fan age is 25-30.

I'm not saying that Yamato decided that ALL Macross fans were 25-30... They decided they were going to target Macross fans who were 25-30 (or lets say 30+).

Who said thats their target? You are basing your argument on a wild assumption. Theres no proof that the ages of 25 to 30 are yamatos target audience. Simply because there are as many 25-30 ppl who complain about the price as there are early 20 fans who don't complain at all.

Edited March 9, 2004 by Abombz!!

[JsARCLIGHT]

OK, I need to step in here and ask some questions... just what is the price of the (hotly debated) Q-Rau toy in Japan the market of origin? My guess is it is about $20 to $30 less than it is for us importing it. At least that is the norm for the 1/48 valks... everyone always says they are $99 in Japan but they are $139+ imported in the states and elsewhere. Plus the Yen is climbing against the dollar and forcing those prices up even higher lately.

Perhaps we should be complaining about the import costs and not the original item costs? I bet if we all lived in the market of origin like some folks we might not be having this debate. I remember a lot of people who live in around the market of origin like Sithlord (please don't be angry with me for name dropping) who buy two and three of all the toys released but he is just going down to the local shop and paying in market prices... and technically saving about $20 to $30 a toy plus shipping that we all have to pay.

Would some folks here be complaining about prices if they lived in the market of origin and saved all that money?... or would the "savings" also be a point of contention as they never paid a premium import price for something before?

[Agent ONE]

...

Who said thats their target? You are basing your argument on a wild assumption.

...

I would like to think my years of consumer market research in business school would give some merrit to my opinion... Or maybe the fact that I get paid for my marketing opinions, as that is what I do for a living, or it could be discussions I have had with individuals in the collector toy industry.

[Nani?!]

However when Yamato decides they are going to produce a Macross toy they FIRST look at how much they should charge to hit the perceived value price point for the demographic they are looking for.

Right.... but it wishful thinking and bad business decision to do that. Why? Because they would be expecting ppl at that age to just be consumer-whores and buy the toys for the simple novelty of being macross toys.

It isn't BAD business... Its ALL business, thats just the way marketing works.

And I'm telling you... thats not the way Yamato went about it!!!

No way in hell the average Macross fan age is 25-30.

I'm not saying that Yamato decided that ALL Macross fans were 25-30... They decided they were going to target Macross fans who were 25-30 (or lets say 30+).

Who said thats their target? You are basing your argument on a wild assumption. Theres no proof that the ages of 25 to 30 are yamatos target audience. Simply because there are as many 25-30 ppl who complain about the price as there are early 20 fans who don't complain at all.

Who said thats their target? You are basing your argument on a wild assumption. Theres no proof that the ages of 25 to 30 are yamatos target audience. Simply because there are as many 25-30 ppl who complain about the price as there are early 20 fans who don't complain at all.

With all due respect abomb, the 25-30 age group is the primary market. The height of Macross' (original series) popularity was when that age group were kids. It's not the only group of fans, but they are the primary market group.

Anyway, it's just business. A huge Majority of businesses (if not all) work pretty much the way agent one explained. They all designate target markets and ALL decisions are made based on it. Again, the 25-30 age group isn't the only group... but it's definitely the primary.

Anyways, right or wrong, this is a stupid topic to argue about...

peace people

[Abombz!!]

However when Yamato decides they are going to produce a Macross toy they FIRST look at how much they should charge to hit the perceived value price point for the demographic they are looking for.

Right.... but it wishful thinking and bad business decision to do that. Why? Because they would be expecting ppl at that age to just be consumer-whores and buy the toys for the simple novelty of being macross toys.

It isn't BAD business... Its ALL business, thats just the way marketing works.

And I'm telling you... thats not the way Yamato went about it!!!

No way in hell the average Macross fan age is 25-30.

I'm not saying that Yamato decided that ALL Macross fans were 25-30... They decided they were going to target Macross fans who were 25-30 (or lets say 30+).

Who said thats their target? You are basing your argument on a wild assumption. Theres no proof that the ages of 25 to 30 are yamatos target audience. Simply because there are as many 25-30 ppl who complain about the price as there are early 20 fans who don't complain at all.

Who said thats their target? You are basing your argument on a wild assumption. Theres no proof that the ages of 25 to 30 are yamatos target audience. Simply because there are as many 25-30 ppl who complain about the price as there are early 20 fans who don't complain at all.

With all due respect abomb, the 25-30 age group is the primary market. The height of Macross' (original series) popularity was when that age group were kids. It's not the only group of fans, but they are the primary market group.

Anyway, it's just business. A huge Majority of businesses (if not all) work pretty much the way agent one explained. They all designate target markets and ALL decisions are made based on it. Again, the 25-30 age group isn't the only group... but it's definitely the primary.

Anyways, right or wrong, this is a stupid topic to argue about...

peace people

With all due respect.... how do you base that? On the assuption that 90% of the fans are those who watched the show back in 1982?

[Abombz!!]

...

Who said thats their target? You are basing your argument on a wild assumption.

...

I would like to think my years of consumer market research in business school would give some merrit to my opinion... Or maybe the fact that I get paid for my marketing opinions, as that is what I do for a living, or it could be discussions I have had with individuals in the collector toy industry.

I'm well aware of that.... but "rules of engagement" don't always apply. Why would Yamato undercut their profit by limiting themselves at what may be a large part of the fandom or may be 1% of the fandom?

Just because the toys are expensive, doesn't mean they are targeting them to ppl who can easily afford them. They are toys for ppl who will buy them based on their liking the series... not on their budget.

You ppl seem to forget 2 basic things: japanese anime fans move on. And I don't mean 10 or 20 years later... I mean the next week. Just because Macross was a huge hit back in 1982, doesn't mean everyone who watched it back then will by the toys.

Second, you also forget that Macross was not broadcast only once.... it was broadcast again a few years later, and must have been available in different formats. Meaning younger fans joined the fandom while older fans might have quit. Remember.... this is 20 years after, not 1 or 2. How many fans can survive the test of time? Specially in japan?

Once again... age was not a variable in this equation.... they simply made the best toy they could, for ppl who would want to buy them.

Whats next? You are going to tell me Hasegawa models main target are kindergarden children because they cost $15?

Edited March 9, 2004 by Abombz!!

[Nani?!]

With all due respect.... how do you base that? On the assuption that 90% of the fans are those who watched the show back in 1982? 

Though I understand your point that fan bases grow and expand with new series (Mac +, Mac 0) and reruns of the original series, yes, many of the current fans are those who watched the show as kids in the early 80's.

If you see the simple decisions yamato made in the creation of the toys themselves, you can clearly see that these weren't specifically meant to be in the hands of 12 year old fan. They could be.... but they weren't meant to be... They're more model like than say the Bandai's or the Takatoku's. Though I personally at the start of this arguement, would have broadened the primary target group to about 21-30, it still doesnt change the fact that the bigger portion of yamato's profit comes from the original viewers of the series. Anyway like I said... it isnt the ONLY group... but yamato is definitely targeting them as primary.

that's enough said from me... this topic isn't worth arguing about.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Not meaning to poke the coals here but what Agent One is saying is 100% correct, one point he is not saying precisely is that all the demographic work is usually done waaaaay up the development curve when the toy is in pre-concept stages. The way it works is like this: execs meet about making money. One exec says "let's make a new toy, how about a puppy?". The execs then decide to do a sales and market projection study on this idea before taking it any further because making a toy is a risky business proposition. This task is handed to a sub-contractor who does a market research study based on polls and other such data. They return to the execs in a new meeting weeks or months later and give them their findings. The "findings" always point to certain trends like "males between 21 and 31 will not buy a puppy toy", "people are willing to pay between $10 and $20 for a puppy toy" and "indicator numbers show a trend toward kitty toys rather than puppy toys". All this data is thrown around the table until the execs hear what they want to hear: someone somewhere is willing to buy a product from them and they are willing to pay a certain ammount of money and here is the data supporting this. At that point the "idea" moves from being a board room fancy to a development and then into a marketed product. They then use all that fancy data they got in the pre-idea stage to market the toy to the choice demos.

Business is not as cold, glide bomb accurate and calculating in their demos as Agent One is making it out to be later on down the line but in the process of taking something from a "what if" to a "when will it be ready to go to market" the data and findings that Agent One is using are most likey the ones Yamato arrived at at some point along the line. They do not necessarily reflect the true intent and audience of the toy but they do reflect the basis on which the toy was developed.

[Abombz!!]

Though I understand your point that fan bases grow and expand with new series (Mac +, Mac 0) and reruns of the original series, yes, many of the current fans are those who watched the show as kids in the early 80's.

Macross Plus and 0 were never brought into this because they are not nearly as popular as the original show.

If you see the simple decisions yamato made in the creation of the toys themselves, you can clearly see that these weren't specifically meant to be in the hands of 12 year old fan.

I never said they were meant for 12 year olds because that would be silly.

They're more model like

They are not model like... by any stretch of imagination.

it still doesnt change the fact that the bigger portion of yamato's profit comes from the original viewers of the series

It still doesn't change the fact that very few japanese fans are loyal to a show. Most of them move on to greener pastures after the show is done. To base toy sales on a demographic that will probably not be there, interested in toys, or willing to pay said price, is insane at best.

[fifbeat]

Simply because there are as many 25-30 ppl who complain about the price as there are early 20 fans who don't complain at all.

Abombz!!, I gotta give you this one; that pretty much sums it up.

Truly sophisti-funk!

And I know this has nothing to do with your argument, but I have to mention it because you felt shocked that there were many late-20s-people that ARE still fans (yikes, nice run on)... Just don't underestimate how many MACROSS fans stayed MACROSS fans until this day.

You're not giving it enough credit. That movie/series sticks with you like your first girlfriend!

It's forever my fiancée!

Edited March 9, 2004 by fifbeat

[Abombz!!]

Simply because there are as many 25-30 ppl who complain about the price as there are early 20 fans who don't complain at all.

Abombz!!, I gotta give you this one; that pretty much sums it up.

Truly sophisti-funk!

And I know this has nothing to do with your arguement, but I have to mention it because you felt shocked that there were many late-20 people that ARE still fans (yikes, nice run on)... But don't underestimate how many MACROSS fans stayed MACROSS fans until this day.

You're not giving it enough credit. That movie/series sticks with you like your first girlfriend!

It's forever my fiancée!

I'm not shocked at all.... my dad is 38... and he is a Macross fan. And he watched it back in 1982 during its first run in Japan. Does he still like it because the story was good? No. Because the characters were interesting? No. He is still a fan because he find the mechanical designs to be the outstanding. Most ppl who watched Macross with him back in the day.... laugh at him everytime he says he still likes it.

And besides... I have been in MW for 2 years now.... I have a clear idea of the age range in this place. That still doesn't reflect the age range of the japanese fandom.

Edited March 9, 2004 by Abombz!!

[fifbeat]

I hear ya...

My bad... but what do I know? ... I'm still the dumb new guy that everyone dislikes because he's a bad-ass mo' fo' with that "flat-ass lego 'n plastic McFarlane toy" disin'... hehe I guess I was just reading your comments wrong...

I'm just pissed because my damn Love Pscyhedelico III album hasn't arrived yet.

Edited March 9, 2004 by fifbeat

[Opus]

I think what Agent One is saying makes sense. I also think that's why Yamato is making thier VF-0 small and relatively inexpensive. The VF-0 is targeted at the newer younger fans who were introduced to Macross by Mac Zero while the expensive stuff is reserved for 25-30 year old collectors who can afford it.