GU-11 ammo/magazines/clips

[JsARCLIGHT]

Aren't the Russians known for creating reliable GI-proof weapons? I mean, I don't know of any Russian weapon that had troubles like the M16.

The Russians are known for making weapons with very loose tollerances made out of cheap materials that work like a japanese businessman. They have actually had several military weapons go "not right" out of the factory. Most notable are a lot of the guns made before WWII like the SVT1938. To it's credit the early issues with the M16 were a result of terrible government management of it's development and deployment (cough cough... McNamera... cough cough) but Eugine Stoner's design is just as solid as Mikhail Kalashnakov's.

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic...

[bsu legato]

but Eugine Stoner's design is just as solid as Mikhail Kalashnakov's.

Well....except for the fact that the AR15 gas system essentailly sh*ts in its own mouth.

Op rod system > direct gas system

[F-ZeroOne]

As for the 10 sec firing time being enough and the comparisions to WW2 fighters.

Well this is a valk, its gonna be outnumbered 10 to 1 at the least.

Anyway, a simple beam weapon would have sorted it out. But running out of ammo is a nice plot device to have anyway.

There are actually numerous incidences of RAF aircraft during the Battle of Britain engaging formations many times stronger. Although there is almost certainly a good degree of exaggeration to many combat reports (which should perhaps be forgiven... ), there are a great many accounts of squadrons of twelve RAF fighters - or even flights of four - engaging upwards of a hundred or more German aircraft.

(of course, the problem for the Germans was that there were those twelve, then another twelve, and then another twelve, all the way to London, until the total the RAF threw at them somewhat exceeded the famous "last 50 Spitfires... ")

The RAF tried big formations during the Battle, and found that aircraft tended to get in each others way (leading to false claims and friendly fire) and that the groups took too long to get organised and up to altitude. Its noticable that "Big Wing" tactics were usually only employed by 12 Group, whose airfields were further back than the vital 11 Group, and who had more reaction time.

I alos believe that being outnumbered is traditionally referred to as being in a "target rich environment"...

I didn't intend it to be an exact match, just an example - I just happen to know those figures better than any others.

Regards the AK47, there was a recent programme on BBC Television where a journalist opened up a AK47. Its no wonder they don't break, theres noting in the thing! I swear I saw a piece of string in there...!

The same presenter also fired a clip on full automatic at a van standing no more than 50 yards away, as a demonstration of the AK47s muzzle climb.

It was untouched...

[wolfx]

Regards the AK47, there was a recent programme on BBC Television where a journalist opened up a AK47. Its no wonder they don't break, theres noting in the thing! I swear I saw a piece of string in there...!

The same presenter also fired a clip on full automatic at a van standing no more than 50 yards away, as a demonstration of the AK47s muzzle climb.

It was untouched...

To be fair, any hand held rifle on full auto won't hit the van either.

[Raptor]

What do you expect from a journalist? As if they have much experience firing automatic weapons? lol...

[JsARCLIGHT]

A common mistake is that people confuse a "machine gun" with a "MBR" (main battle rifle). Most MBRs are not really meant to be fired off all in one burst like a madman and no army in the world teaches their troops to do that unless they are using it in some sort of suppression or break contact action. True "machine guns" like a Squad Assault Weapon or an M60 are suppress and manuver weapons. They are not meant to be accurate, just to keep the enemy's head down while the troops with the MBRs manuver in for a kill shot. A real machine gun has a "broad side of a barn" hit pattern. If that journalist had fired in short controlled bursts like they slam into every recruit at basic he could have diced his target easily... then again he was most likely going for the shot he got for some reason or another, you know journalists.

BACK ON TOPIC NOW...

what sort of rounds do you think the GU-11 has? I've never seen a real "official" statement on the ammo itself other than "55mm, bullet, big". Something akin to depleated Uranium for armor busting capability? Something along the lines of concussive or fragmenting to dice the pilots inside the zentradi war machines? After all, they knew they would be fighting giants so why not make your bigass ammo like the small "jacket breaker" bullets that work so well on fleshy targets encased in metal armor?

[David Hingtgen]

If I knew I was up against Zentradi, I'd probably ask for a miniaturized HEAT round. Regardless of whether he's in a battlepod, or just wearing a stylish officer's coat, you need serious damage to take them down.

[azrael]

According to the vf-4 RPG stats from here: http://www.steelfalcon.com/Macross/vf4.shtml, the VF-4 can carry GU-11 Gunpods as well. It can carry up to 2 but missile capacity would be limited.

SteelFalcon is RPG info. RPG info is not accurate as it works in the world of the game. Therefore, we don't use that info. We work off what we have from the Compendium.

[Vifam7]

what sort of rounds do you think the GU-11 has? I've never seen a real "official" statement on the ammo itself other than "55mm, bullet, big". Something akin to depleated Uranium for armor busting capability? Something along the lines of concussive or fragmenting to dice the pilots inside the zentradi war machines? After all, they knew they would be fighting giants so why not make your bigass ammo like the small "jacket breaker" bullets that work so well on fleshy targets encased in metal armor?

I think it'd be proximity fused (especially for space combat).

-------

Vifam7

[F-ZeroOne]

What do you expect from a journalist? As if they have much experience firing automatic weapons? lol...

I know that fully auotmatic fire is not a good way of hitting a target myself, it was just the most visual demonstration I've yet seen of the point!

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

What do you expect from a journalist?  As if they have much experience firing automatic weapons?  lol...

I know that fully auotmatic fire is not a good way of hitting a target myself, it was just the most visual demonstration I've yet seen of the point!

The british army used to drill that fact into its recruits.

Have 2 sets of 6 steel plates. Have 1 rifleman using a bolt action rifle vs 1 machine gunner on full auto. Rifleman always wins.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

LMAO!

btw has anyone ever seen one of the "plastic" cars made in russia during the late 70s-80s?  You thought the Yugo was bad :lol:

I have to question the reliability of this firearm.

Aren't the Russians known for creating reliable GI-proof weapons? I mean, I don't know of any Russian weapon that had troubles like the M16.

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Vifam7

A large part of the failures of the initial bunch of M16s were _not_ the rifles fault.

Due to whatever beaurecratic mess ups, the ammo used was not the ammo specified by the weapon designers. It was the ammo mismatch that caused the jamming.

[Raptor]

Well, that and the fact that they told the GIs that M16's didn't need cleaning and didn't issue cleaning kits until a year or two after they issued them...

[bsu legato]

I suspect that the GU-11 is commonly loaded with some sort of AP round. There's one clip of animation that is reused several times in the early episodes of SDF Macross, where a battlepod is hit by gunpod fire, and the tracers are seen to pass clear through the body.

[Southcross]

I've been meaning to mention this, but as is often pointed out that "Robotech is not Macross". But in the RT world their Gunpods fire Depleated Uranium ammunition. The round does not need to be of fragmentation type to kill the Regult pilot, the "shrapnel" that is sucked in by the force of the AP round does the soft target damage. You just need the initial high speed "punch" to get through the armor.

Now if you will note in Ep 1, where Hikaru shoots the pod... most of the rounds actually go "around" where the pilot sits. although he did have a few torso hits, I'm sure he was in a "Zentran Rage" and didn't feel it, till he died of course

[ManxoChu]

I've been meaning to mention this, but as is often pointed out that "Robotech is not Macross". But in the RT world their Gunpods fire Depleated Uranium ammunition. The round does not need to be of fragmentation type to kill the Regult pilot, the "shrapnel" that is sucked in by the force of the AP round does the soft target damage. You just need the initial high speed "punch" to get through the armor.

Now if you will note in Ep 1, where Hikaru shoots the pod... most of the rounds actually go "around" where the pilot sits. although he did have a few torso hits, I'm sure he was in a "Zentran Rage" and didn't feel it, till he died of course

But wasn't that Zentraedi finally offed by Roy capping him in the back? I clearly remember the gaping hole in the back. I could be wrong, but I don't believe that it's an exit wound.

Gah, gotta lay off the eppies of CSI.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I myself always chalked up the whole "Hikaru's first gun fight" encounter as a plot device... they needed to introduce the giants, explain the reason for the battroids and freak out Hikaru in one scene... so he just jiffy pops a battle pod, in the process emptying his magazine and successfully missing all the vitals of the pod pilot. The sheer odds against that are too low to even think about... think about it. If I was standing in front of you and you let off with a M60 in a wild burst eventually one of those rounds is going through my chest or my head. For Hikaru to empty an entire magazine at close range on a large target and not hit a vital part is impossible... well not impossible just infinately improbable. Hence: plot device. Focker pumping a single short burst into the guy's back, killing him instantly is just part of that plot device. This also speaks to the selective penetration capabilities of the GU-11 ammo. If that ammo was made to penetrate hard armor it would have gone through the back plate, through that poor zentradi's chest, out the front of this armor and into Hikaru and Minmay in the trainer. After all, the zentradi have armored suits on inside their armored pods... if the rounds are not powerful enough to go through both sides of their body armor then how can they hope to penetrate the pod armor and the body armor to kill the pilot?

And another thing to think about, just what the heck is it in the "cockpit" area of those Regults that is so freaking explosive? Time and again you see a solid hit right into the pilot seat of a pod and it blows into pieces. Are zentradi pilots sitting on a case of plastique or something? Is that their idea of an escape mechanism? When your pod is damaged a small explosion will propell you through the back of the pod and out into space.

[VF5SS]

Is THIS rendering based on that cutaway picture of the GU-11? I remember a while back I think Graham or Shawn posted a nice cutaway of the GU-11 with the ammo clearly visable in a wrap around belt.

[Southcross]

Is THIS rendering based on that cutaway picture of the GU-11? I remember a while back I think Graham or Shawn posted a nice cutaway of the GU-11 with the ammo clearly visable in a wrap around belt.

thats the picture I remember seeing of the 55mm round. I'm currious just how "accurate" it really is, or if its just "fan-fic"

[bsu legato]

thats the picture I remember seeing of the 55mm round. I'm currious just how "accurate" it really is, or if its just "fan-fic"

It matches what is shown in Memory Perfect, so I'm inclined to say its legit.

[Southcross]

thats the picture I remember seeing of the 55mm round.  I'm currious just how "accurate" it really is, or if its just "fan-fic"

It matches what is shown in Memory Perfect, so I'm inclined to say its legit.

having an understanding of balistics and trajectory... its a poor design to be fired in an atmosphere, let alone have a limited propellent capacity.

[Zentrandude]

Is THIS rendering based on that cutaway picture of the GU-11? I remember a while back I think Graham or Shawn posted a nice cutaway of the GU-11 with the ammo clearly visable in a wrap around belt.

man un spacy is realy messed up. its like mirrored letters.

[mbs357]

I've always thought of it being similar to the A-10s helical drum system.

You've got this cylinder like formation of bullets on a belt in the stock of the gun pod, and they're drawn into the chamber by it, and fired.

[bsu legato]

This cutaway gives you a good idea of how the GU-11 ammo is stored.

[Godzilla]

This cutaway gives you a good idea of how the GU-11 ammo is stored.

With all that extra space you would think you could store a couple more rounds but that would increase the weight significantly. Or am I looking at it wrong?

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

thats the picture I remember seeing of the 55mm round.  I'm currious just how "accurate" it really is, or if its just "fan-fic"

It matches what is shown in Memory Perfect, so I'm inclined to say its legit.

having an understanding of balistics and trajectory... its a poor design to be fired in an atmosphere, let alone have a limited propellent capacity.

Just like the AMM missiles. Looks really unaerodynamic for use in an atmosphere.

Heck, even the VF 1 isn't very aerodynamic for atmospheric use.

[Stamen0083]

Will someone explain to me the purpose of the extended stock? It serves no purpose, takes up more room, and requires mechanisms to extend it.

If you say for aesthetic reasons, I will need to kick you :-P

Edited March 11, 2004 by Stamen0083

[Southcross]

Will someone explain to me the purpose of the extended stock? It serves no purpose, takes up more room, and requires mechanisms to extend it.

If you say for aesthetic reasons, I will need to kick you :-P

Probably serves some kind of a kinetic recoil or maybe a turn actuator for a gas operated mechanism... hmmm good question... does look kewl though

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Will someone explain to me the purpose of the extended stock? It serves no purpose, takes up more room, and requires mechanisms to extend it.

If you say for aesthetic reasons, I will need to kick you :-P

Better for clubbing Zentrans on the head with?

[Southcross]

This cutaway gives you a good idea of how the GU-11 ammo is stored.

With all that extra space you would think you could store a couple more rounds but that would increase the weight significantly. Or am I looking at it wrong?

weight, also with that open space it allows for cooling of the barrels. one problem with putting amunition and hot-hot-super-hot barrels in the same confined space... they have a term for it... "cook off" the propellent starts spontaniously ignighting setting off a chain reaction in the amunition storage.

[JB0]

This cutaway gives you a good idea of how the GU-11 ammo is stored.

With all that extra space you would think you could store a couple more rounds but that would increase the weight significantly. Or am I looking at it wrong?

weight, also with that open space it allows for cooling of the barrels. one problem with putting amunition and hot-hot-super-hot barrels in the same confined space... they have a term for it... "cook off" the propellent starts spontaniously ignighting setting off a chain reaction in the amunition storage.

Also known as "really exciting".

Or "holyshitmygun'sexplodingI'mgonnadie!"

[Southcross]

This cutaway gives you a good idea of how the GU-11 ammo is stored.

With all that extra space you would think you could store a couple more rounds but that would increase the weight significantly. Or am I looking at it wrong?

weight, also with that open space it allows for cooling of the barrels. one problem with putting amunition and hot-hot-super-hot barrels in the same confined space... they have a term for it... "cook off" the propellent starts spontaniously ignighting setting off a chain reaction in the amunition storage.

Also known as "really exciting".

Or "holyshitmygun'sexplodingI'mgonnadie!"

hey I have seen a "low-level cook off" and it scares the living crap out of you. it was a semi-auto and every time it chambered a round it went off... shot off all 10 rounds like a machinegun (about 1/10th of a second). Good thing, IMO, that it only held 10 rounds.

[maxjenius81]

The extending stock is for cooling purposes, hence why it is only used in battloid and GERWALK modes. In fighter mode, you dont need as the airflow cools the barrel.

[Raptor]

Ah... so that's what they mean when they say the P90 is resistant to cookoffs...

I thought it just meant a really hot barrel.

[Southcross]

Ah... so that's what they mean when they say the P90 is resistant to cookoffs...

I thought it just meant a really hot barrel.

Barrel cook offs can be very very scary... but if I had a choice I would prefer the round to cook off in the barrel than in the magazine. the worst cookoffs are, as an example, a tank firing tons and tons of HE ammunition... the barrel gets too hot and instead of setting off the propellent, it sets of the "warhead"! this is very very bad!

Also "cook offs" can refer to a "bad round"... the propellent is either non-existant or bad (wet, old, etc)... the propellent burns really slowly (round appears to be a "dud")... but still burns hot enough to ignite the time delay fuse in the projectile... the time delay runs out and BOOM! the HE goes off inside the tank!

all very very bad