DECALS

[Lucifer]

I always tend to mess models up wen it comes to placing decals. what's the correct way to properly snap a decal on a model?

[kanata67]

water transfers? I always found a steady hand and a really good set of tweesers helped.

Clear coat after the fact keeps them in place.

[Gerwalker]

1. Clear cote (Future, Tamiya, etc.) the model.

3. Cut the decal trying to remove as much of the clear carrier as you can.

4. Put it in warm water.

5. Brush a little of Microset or simmilar on the spot you want to place the decal (this solutions lowers the surface tension so the decal can descend on the model instead of float and also softens the decal's carrier)

6. Using a tweezers remove it (still on the backing paper) from water and gently touch some tissue paper with the backing paper of the decal in order to remove the water excess.

7. Place it onto the model next to the place you want the decal to be applied and gently slide the decal with a brush.

8. You can correct the decal position using the brush or other tool (never use your fingers!!)

9. press the decal with a soft and clean tissue. This will force the decal to confrom to the surface details and also removes water. If you find blisters or slivers you can punch them with a needle and press again. (some modelers use to apply microset onto the decal before pressing it)

10. Apply Microsol onto the decal. This solution dissolves the decal's carrier so it looks like painted on. The decal would shrink a little but it would return to it's original shape after drying (I use the potential would because some decals reacts badly with microsol and the like, so always experiment with a decal you are not planning to use before using this solution)

11. wash the model to remove the glue and solutions residues.

12. Clear coate again and you are ready for panneling, weathering, etc.

[geeone_8]

i know the product code for the tamiya gloss clear cote is x-22 or something like that, but what is it for the flat clear coat? does anyone know? thanks.

[Gerwalker]

i know the product code for the tamiya gloss clear cote is x-22 or something like that, but what is it for the flat clear coat? does anyone know? thanks.

Tricky question... there is no Tamiya flat clear coat!!! There is a flat base (X-21) that is actually a paste that you have to mix with tamiya paints (clear or not) to obtain satin or matt paints. You have to experiment yourself with this stuff but it works fine for me. Always mix it with paint and never used it alone because you will get a frost effect.

Edited September 1, 2003 by Gerwalker

[David Hingtgen]

I've always found "smooth surface" (and the 20 steps associated) to be over-rated. I rock at decals, and apply directly to whatever the paint is. Flat white and flat dark ghost grey lately. The secret is TIME. Give the microset TIME to work. It's not going to work in 30 secs. Give it like 5-10 minutes, 30 for a BIG decal. I never ever use microsol, there's no need--it's just for impatient people (unless you're trying to do a 120-degree bend in the decal). Microset and time will allow ANY decal to conform perfectly even to a flat, rough finish.

How *I* decal (with amazing results).

1. Trim the clear! ALL of it. The factory job is never good enough, unless they're the best of the best of aftermarket decals.

2. Brush microset over where you'll put it.

3. Put decal in water for a few secs. Just dunk it then pull it out---just enough to saturate the paper.

4. Brush microset over decal (while still on paper). (I don't always do this, but definitely for big decals).

5. Apply decal to model. Soak the thing in microset. Microset is your friend. (This is opposite of what Gerwalker said, and opposite of how most people do it--but I get perfect results, so I say do it my way) (I've had decals silver ONCE of all the models I've built, and that's when I forgot to use microset) Don't remove the excess early--for the first 5 minutes of that decal's existence on the model, it should be soaked in microset, with a puddle on top of it.

6. Use brush, fingers, q-tip, whatever to push the decal on so it's nice and snug.

7. Most important step: NOW (not earlier, not until you've got it in place and nice and snug) carefully soak up the excess water/microset using a napkin/paper towel. Get ALL of it. PRESS the decal, you want to basically squeegee it. Water under the decal it what causes silvering- (air bubbles are created by the water, thus water is the true cause). It's also what causes them to lift off. So you want to really get the decal RIGHT against the surface, and remove all the water. The microset helps with this.

8. Clear coat. (Well, more like "let decals DRY then clear coat")

Edited September 1, 2003 by David Hingtgen

[Grayson72]

Hmm I always found Micro Sol invaluable, it melts the decal into the surface for that painted on look, especially if I'm gonna do panel lines over the decal.

One note about Micro Sol, you don't have to do the whole decal (especially if it's a big one) just touch it on the parts where you want the decal to sink into the detail and be patient with it, after it starts working the decal shrivels up like a long swim in cold water and looks like a nightmare but then lays back down. Don't touch it again until it's dry.

[wm cheng]

Hey good tips!!

I'll try it on my next models, lots of MicroSET you say - hmm, maybe I haven't been putting enough or letting enough time for it to sit.

I would warn about MicroSOL, its pretty powerful stuff and has ruined a few of my decals in the past. Good point about using it only where you need it to conform to a panel line or something - I also brush it around the edges to dessolve away some the the carrier film so it doesn't step up as much, more of a slope up. I do find that a smooth glossy surface does wonders for decals than a flat matte one - plus you can't really do an oil wash on flat paints anyways.

Hey everybody, David, Grayson, Gerwalker, lets see some of your models!! Post pics!

[David Hingtgen]

Grayson--that's exactly it. Microset does too---it just takes longer! Microsol will destroy many a decal. But you can soak a decal in microset for an hour, and it'll be fine. It will go down snug against the paint just as tightly as the paint adheres to the plastic. As I said, microset+time will let the decal pick out every panel, rivet, surface imperfection, etc. Sheesh, I can make sanding marks appear, if I've got a decal over a thin layer of paint. Microsol is too strong and unneccessary 99% of the time.

Here's my USS Lakota, for which I only painted white and steel. All blue and grey and red is decal:

[Kurt]

I also aways use Micro Sol. I use Micro Set when placing the decal and brush Micro Sol on after the Micro Set has some time to dry. I have found that if you don't wait, the decal will soften too much and may possibly have a tendency to curl. After the first coat of Micro Sol is dry go back and use a sharp hobby knife and prick holes in any part of the decal that did not conform to the detail of the model. Re-apply Miro Sol as many times as necessary. You may have a bit of the paint under the decal show through where you cut the holes. Just touch up with matching paint.

[wm cheng]

Fantastic model David!!

Where did you get such a complete decal sheet for this starship. I remember masking every blue line on my old Excelsior when I did it about 10 years ago!! Arrgh!! So are the windows drilled out or are they a decal sheet too? Great work - love to see more!

[Lucifer]

RGR!

[Gerwalker]

Interesting discussion! It is always a pleassure to argue with you David. I admit that I use Micro Sol just when is needed and when possible (I strongly suggest to check first on a decal you are not going to use)

I agree with you David that Micro Set alone is enough for softening fine decals such as Hasegawa decals (at least in the Battroid model). Even the minus sign decals conform to the surface after applying a little pressure. I use this technique with almost all the decals of the Hase Batt I published in the Modelersite Sci Fi section Link to modelersite. But this the case of thin and good decals which is not always the case. In other ocassions Micro Sol helps a lot. My advise for beginners: always test new techniques on test models or parts.

In my experience the gloss coat is necessary if you want good results. Remember: not all the decals are the same (ever deal with old Esci decals?). Maybe an extra fine decal could adhere to a matt surface if you press it and soften with Micro Set but I think that is not a safe practice (it is more a lazy one ). Matt surfaces are very porous and it's microporosity traps air. Though I agree that a satin finish could work as well as a glossy one.

I don't agree with using a bare finger for pressing decals. I always use some soft and clean material to do so.

In this pic I took during the Battroid construction you can see how the Hasegawa decals conform well to the surface using just Micro Set (all the black and red markings are decals):

[David Hingtgen]

Gerwalker--very nice battroid. As for bare finger--not totally bare, covered in microset.

Info about my USS Lakota:

Ertl kit of course, which is basically an Excelsior with aftermarket parts. (They DON'T fit well, I used 1/8" styrene to fill gaps, not .020 or something). Clear resin replacement planetary sensor dome (clear lights on saucer bottom), replacement impulse crystals (light blue), replacement bussard ramscoops (deep blue), replacement torpedo tubes and launcer, fore and aft, replacement deflector dish (deep blue). Carved out the trench in the deflector dish (missing from the kit), and carved out all the opaque parts to replace the pieces mentioned about. Resin parts here: http://www.federationmodels.com/products/d...dlm/default.htm (quite a ways down for Ent-B parts)

Most importantly, I lit it up. There's dozens of wires in the thing, but only 1 resistor. Lit via lightsheet, which is the ACTUAL WARP ENGINE GLOW stuff used for Excelsior class ships on DS9. It's the perfect color, amazing stuff. It's paper thin, but glows as bright as flourescent bulbs, is naturally light blue, doesn't heat up. And easy to wire. Warp engines, ramscoops, and deflector dish have this. Impulse engines and saucer use micro-bulbs, crystals have full-size bulbs run at lower power. (Was going to use LED's, but it was easier to just use bulbs at low power due to how the saucer is wired).

I really wished I'd take some pics of the wiring before I sealed it up, the thing is PACKED with electronics. (I had to sand the interior of the warp engines to stuff the wires in---24 vs 26 gauge wire made the difference-it's THAT packed in there). If something truly horrific ever happens to the model, there are quick disconnects from the saucer just above the deflector, and forward of the nacelle mount above the shuttlebay.

Anyways---decals are from http://www.thomasmodels.com/. VERY complete, as I said, I didn't paint any blue or grey. (Except for 2 stripes on the pylons). You can order any ship there is (Ent-B and Lakota being the most popular for the Modified Excelsior clas)

Windows are decals, (only about 4 per side, I wasn't to cut the clear from hundreds of black dots). THAT was a lot of work to get what is basically a big clear decal with black specs to lay down over the grid pattern of the hull painted flat white. Saucer windows generally in groups of 6.

Here's the decals:

[David Hingtgen]

Only shot I have of the grey (and the ship is dark when not lit up--the warp engines are hand-polished inside and out with buffed transparent blue paint, BTW, they look amazing when the sun hits it--like sapphires) (impulse engines are not buffed, they're too inset to catch the light)

[David Hingtgen]

Last pic for now, will post shots of it all lit up later. (.8 amps to light it up, BTW) (might move to a new thread, this is getting OT) (it's REALLY hard to photograph at night lit up---comes out very dark no matter what--trust me, the thing is blazing bright at night, can light up the room--it's not just your standard bulbs, it's flourescent bright---it's actually the same tech used by the Air Force for those bright glowing position light strips on the wingtips and tail) (yes, the underside of the pylon joints are ugly with visible seams---they're not designed to have wires run through them, nor do they fit at all well in the first place--so they are as they are (and most people don't look at the bottom of the pylons anyway)--it's the one place I simply couldn't fill the seams without really messing up detail/wiring)

Edited September 2, 2003 by David Hingtgen

[wm cheng]

Omigod!! It looks great - can't wait to see it lit up. Man I wish we had decals like those 10 years ago - arrgh I had to mask everything back then all the blue patterns were masked - I even created a template in CAD and masked the aztec pattern on the saucer in a different shade as well as different panels for the hull and nacelles for my Excelsior. I drilled out all the windows back then too! Just too crazy - I'll never do that again especially to such a crappy kit!

[David Hingtgen]

Well, nowadays they make brass templates for the aztec pattern, too. Covers the whole kit--just spray the whole kit white, then apply the templats, and spray your "not white" and you're done. (The trick is getting them all lined up--it's like 16 segments for the saucer). And the Excelsior kit is small/bad enough it's usually not worth it. I've only seen two lit-up aztec-ed Excelsiors ever. (Both were Modified Ent-B styles however, like mine)

Unlit:

[David Hingtgen]

Lit

[David Hingtgen]

Unlit

[David Hingtgen]

Lit!

Edited September 2, 2003 by David Hingtgen

[David Hingtgen]

It's actually much brighter than this, BTW.

[David Hingtgen]

Impulse crystals are the brightest part of the entire ship (left), followed by the warp field generators:

[Lightning]

wish i had the patience to do that kind of modeling...

[Gerwalker]

David,

that's a serious starship!! Excellent work! You should do the same they did in the series: take a pic of the lights and overlay it on a pic of the model with the lights off. You will need a tripod but It would be cool

[wm cheng]

Way Cool starship!!

Back to the decal stuff for a second, a good friend Recon recently asked some very good questions that I hope to provide some light on my personal way of applying decals I hope might benefit any of you here that might need tips for applying decals.

Do you apply microset or micro sol on the surface before placing decals onto it?

I used to, but with good decals like Hasegawa - I don't think you need to. Make sure that it is lying on a glossy surface first. Then if you want, you could put down some MicroSET first (avoid using MicroSOL - its really powerful stuff - only as a last resort) - MicroSET is so much weaker and its safer to put down. If I need it afterwards - after the decal position is finalized, I might very gently brush a little MicroSOL on the edges or any problem areas, but leave it alone at this point.

I seem to experience problems and difficulties as they seem to float on the surface or curl up before i can set them in position.  Does Micro set or Micro Sol do the trick and minimises the possibilty of air bubbles gettings trapped under the decals upon drying?

I haven't encounted the curling before, but if they float, then I would put a bit of paper towel to soak up or "wick" some of the excess water from underneath the decal. However, the decal must be wet or at least moist when you are moving it around into final position - keep brushing water on it to move it around. The curling might be solved by putting it in the water for longer - try putting in for 10-12sec for the larger pieces, they should move slightly while in the water. MicroSET and MicroSOL does not get rid of bubbles, all they do is soften the decal to lay flatter and confirm to irregular surfaces or allow detail from underneath the decal to "telegraph" through.

After the decals being set in, do you wait for them to dry before applying some Micro Sol or Micro set solution to sink the decals into the panels or do you apply them immediately?

No, they work best when the decals are still wet, and that there is water underneath to "wick" the MicroSET or MicroSOL underneath for a more even coverage. I would say feel free to put brush some MicroSET on before or during decal placement and repositioning if you like, but only use a little MicroSOL after the final position has been achieved - and leave it alone after the MicroSOL.

Should i take a tissue and blot out the water from the decals once they are set in position before further applying setting solution to sink the decal into the panels? If so, how long should i wait before proceding to blot out the extra water from the decals?

Yes, as soon as they are in position, I would "wick" away any water to prevent them from "floating" and use a tissue to "press" down on them tight to the surface. I usually fold the tissue a few times to get a softer cushion and press down hard to get some of the details to read through. I may paint some MicroSET or MicroSOL on them again but just around the edges and the recessed panel lines they cover. Remember, the setting solutions only soften the decal, they do not "sink" the decals - for that you have to press down on them with a tissue. I have noticed that flat/matte finishes tend to trap more bubbles underneath the decals too - causing a silvering to occur - make sure you give the model a clear-coat of gloss (I used semi-gloss because of experience - but gloss works better) before you apply decals. You don't have to wait to blot out excess water - just as long as you are satisfied with the final positioning. But complete each individual decal at a time.

After you finish application of the decals, do you do panel wash immediately on the decals before doing a semi gloss coat to seal them in followed by a finishing flat coat.?

Yes again, I think you've got it! I only panel wash on top of the decals to reveal again what they cover, you don't have to do the entire plane again. I usually do semi-gloss coat to help even out the edges of the carrier film but I think I will try a gloss coat now - the glossier the clear-coat the heavier/thicker it is and more able to cover this slight bump. Then finish it in whatever final sheen you want the whole thing to take on. I find semi-gloss to be good with planes - flat seems more appropriate for armours - or mix the two, like semi-gloss for the Valkryie and flat for the fast packs or even the two finishes on the same plane like my FRX-00 Mave thread.

[recon]

Thanks a million Wmcheng,

You are the man!! Hope everything goes on smoothly from now. Cant wait to show you guys later the finished product of my VF-1S Hikaru.

Cheers

[David Hingtgen]

I'll just add that I think one of the most important steps is to PRESS the decal down to squeeze all the air bubbles out. Don't just soak up the excess water, that's not enough. I use paper towels+fingers (soaked in microset) to really rub them down. You practically want to burnish them into the surface (without damaging them, of course).

[Lightning]

david- where did u find the stuff to do the lighting on the Lakota? is there some store where u get it at or somehting?

[David Hingtgen]

It's the actual stuff used to light them up on DS9 (also seen in most Batman movies, and Men in Black---any time you see a cool blue glow, it's that). And there's only one place that sells it. Email TrekFX@aol.com and ask for info about Lightsheet. They also use their own drivers/converters, but they're simple to wire.

There's of course some standard bulbs and stuff too, but the warp nacelles and deflector dish use lightsheet. (And you're on your own for figuring out the wiring/resistors/power supply/ )

If you're seriously interested, let me know and I'll email you the PDF's I have on the stuff.

I *really* wish I had taken some pics of the wiring--I almost did, but then closed it up. There's dozens and dozens of them in there---whole thing is basically parallel, but the saucer/main/nacelles are wired together in serial. (Basic wiring is from power supply/stand (which was also custom built from parts from Radio Shack---the ship itself is totally removable--there's simply a small hole in the bottom of the shuttle bay where it plugs into the stand--the stand itself is part of the circuit). So I can take the ship off the stand and fly it around, then attach it to the stand and light it up. (Did I mention I spent weeks figuring out the wiring, and basically learning electronics/wiring/led's/bulbs/soldering? )

[Lightning]

(Did I mention I spent weeks figuring out the wiring, and basically learning electronics/wiring/led's/bulbs/soldering? )

yikes! lol. I was thinkin of doing a VF-4 model sometime and actually having the engine exaust coming out of the back (since it's blue and all) and leaving like a trail around the room or something like that.

[DARTHTODD]

Question....after applying the decals and then while covering with a clear coat...do I need to tape off the canopy section with the clear plastic? Is the clear coat going to damage the canopy's texture/glossiness or anything? Thanks & sorry for a dumb question.

[David Hingtgen]

Yes you do. But you'll probably want to mask it off BEFORE you put the clear coat on...

See wmcheng's YF-21 thread and you'll notice the canopy spent several weeks being masked, to protect it from various things.

[DARTHTODD]

Thanks! And yes, I did mean should I mask it off BEFORE I started clear coating.