70,000 in a ship thats 1.2km x 300m x 600m?

dedalus001 · February 21, 2004

i was just watching bye bye mars when i realized that the macross did have around 70,000 refugees and combat personnel onboard since it left earth. my question is, could it really carry all those people? when i look at pictures of the sdf, i also try to figure out where in the ship the city remains. i think its that white block thats connected to the main tower. but dyou think that people had to live in the dedalus and prometheus? im so confused..

KingNor · February 21, 2004

they probably stuck people anywhere possible, you're gonna just have to accept the discrepency and stuff, in real life they wouldn't have bothered with makeing an artificail sky and in efficient buildings and stuff in side, they would have just stuffed everyone into bunks and told them "its this or outerspace"

dedalus001 · February 21, 2004

you have a very valid point: when a 1200 m alien ship that belonged to people who use giants as slaves, almost ten yeasr to recreate a military with fighter planes that can do things becasue of this magical alien technology, a cannon that makes me cry with joy, and the ultimate vaporization of six billion people, i guess they could just slip the population thing in... the only other thing i have to question in the "reality" of the series is how the macross had 2 yrs of food for over 3x its initial military population for the voyage to earth. okay, lets also take into consideration that the macross did resupply at salla base, but still... i suppose its yet another mystery of overtechnology and a lot of spam...

Macross_Fanboy · February 21, 2004

Hey, think about the aircraft carriers. The Prometheus and Daedlus can probably house 3000 sailors, maybe more than today's modern day aircraft carriers. Now, that would be about 6000 crew members and those kinds of ships are PACKED with food the last at least two years out on sea. And don't forget the Macross, it has a large grew so food was abundant. Now, seeing how advancements were made in space travel, they can grow their own food...but I'd get tired of soy burgers pretty quick since I'm not a vegetarian. :blink:

BUT! Forget about the food, think about the ammunition! And the materials for replacing the lost Valkyries! Not exactly the "Mothership" from Homeworld. :blink:

dedalus001 · February 21, 2004

doesn't tha macross have its own factory onboard itself? i think i remember reading that somewhere.. but they did salvage a bit, i mean in longest birthday, we see pretty beaten up destroids taken back to base for salvaging. not to mention kakizaki's own valk. how they supplied parts for 350 fighter planes? who knows. back to thinking about numbers of people- im starting to wonder how many people died when briitai blew up the initial UN fleet. i mean, that was a few oberths and ARMDs. ouchies.

Coota0 · February 21, 2004

Hey, think about the aircraft carriers. The Prometheus and Daedlus can probably house 3000 sailors, maybe more than today's modern day aircraft carriers. Now, that would be about 6000 crew members and those kinds of ships are PACKED with food the last at least two years out on sea. And don't forget the Macross, it has a large grew so food was abundant. Now, seeing how advancements were made in space travel, they can grow their own food...but I'd get tired of soy burgers pretty quick since I'm not a vegetarian.
BUT! Forget about the food, think about the ammunition! And the materials for replacing the lost Valkyries! Not exactly the "Mothership" from Homeworld.

A Nimitz Class carrier has a crew (counting the Air Wing) of over 5000, so your estimate of 3000 for the Prometheus is low. The Wasp has a crew of 1108 +1894 Marines =3002 (you were just about right, but this doesn't count flightcrews or groundcrews for the embarked aircraft) but at the very least you're talking 8000 crewmebers from both ships rather than 6000, and if I rember correctly the Prometheus and Dadeleaus (Sp?) were supposed to be larger than their modern day counterparts.

Knight26 · February 22, 2004

Figuring that the Daedalaus and Prometheous are about 1.5X the size of a Nimitz class carrier I would put their combined crew space at around 10,000 strong. Figure most of those likely died in the inital space fold, for the sake of argument let's say half died. The other half remaining safe in airtight sections of the ships. Unless significant automation was employed the Macross probably was launched with a crew approaching 25,000 in number. Figure 5000 would immediately leave to make up for the losses on the D+P. It's been a while but if I remember correctly South Ataria had a population of around 50,000 civlians when they were brought aboard. Provided people do not mind living in small homes or military quarters it is no unreasonable to assume you could cram them all inside the Macross. However, with the city they show that would likely be impossible, hey artistic liscence. From a quick look at the macross it looks to have a volume about 15+ times that of a Nimitz, easily enough room for 70,000 then, but not in a city type environment, too much wasted space.

As for spares, munitions and food. The D+P and the Macross itself were likely fully stocked at the time of the space fold, enough food, drink, and munitions for a standard deployment, 6 months. Figure that the Macross would probably have twice that amount on board in order to sustain itself without having to land planetside or rely on constant unrep. Watching the show it is evident that the crew of the Macross are scavengers, pickign through the debris of battle to bring aboard anything of use. Hydroponic gardens likely provided a great deal of the ships food and fresh air, scrubers can only do so much, and water would be no problem, recycling of onboard water would be a requirement and ice asteroids would reply the rest. Ice asteroids would also provide hydrogen for fueling the valkyries and the Macross itself. Also, South Ataria island was likely self suficient by the time of the Macross' launch so food on the surface and in storage would be pretty plentiful. Most of that would have been flash frozen during the initial space fold limiting cellular damage and keeping it edible, though probably with a loss in taste, just like any frozen food. The farmers of South Ataria were probably immediately employed aboard the Macross in the hydroponic gardens and possibly in farms using soil from south ataria.

Of course with so many civilians on board the food water and air would run out much faster then normal, so would the filters. The Captain comments in Bye Bye Mars that they are running very short of food and other supplies, the perishable and non replenishables. This explains the touch down on Mars, they resupplied with whatever was left there, which probably only gave them just enough to reach earth. The major resupply, rearm and refit was then done earthside, and probably every space cubic centimeter was filled with supplies.

Then again remember this is an anime so expect a bit of artisitic liscence on these points, it's not hard sci-fi after all.

J A Dare · February 22, 2004

Easy...sleeping quarters Japanese Capsule Hotel style!

Mr March · February 22, 2004

A Nimitz-Class Aircraft Carrier carries a ship's Company of 3,200 and an air crew of 2,480, for a total of 5,680 personnel. The Nimitz is only 332.85 meters in length.

That should give you a good idea potentially how many people could be aboard a ship like the Macross.

It's also important to keep in mind the dimensions of a vessel and not just the length. Remember, we're talking volume here, not just standing room. The Macross is far wider and much deeper than a ship like the Nimitz, not to mention almost four times longer. It would easily have more than enough space to hold tens of thousands of people.

dedalus001 · February 22, 2004

but most of the sdf-1's volume consists of machinery and overtechnology systems and such. it is 1200 meters in length from the front of its booms to the backmost part of the engines. if you think about it, all the systems running gravity, engines, and the main cannon take a hearty portion of this deep vessel. thats where i credit the artistic license.

Powered Convoy · February 22, 2004

I'm currently rewatching Macross, and they said there was 56,000 Civilians in "Burst Point".

Randy

jchapman · February 22, 2004

I've always assumed that the civilian shelters on the island stored supplies capable of supporting the entire civilian population for an extended period, and they were emptied as part of the savanging effort after the fold.

Since the Macross was rebuilt on the island, the parts, technology and expertise necessary to maintain the ship and its fighter wing should have also been there for scavanging.

ewilen · February 22, 2004

Yup, I think there may have been a lot of supplies available. Plus, all the fish and shellfish that were flash-frozen after the fold.

The big problem is the living space. People weren't just bunking up. They were living in houses, driving cars, eating in restaurants, going to the movies and video arcades. There was even a stadium.

Macross_Fanboy · February 22, 2004

Correction! It's a concert hall.

Mr March · February 22, 2004

but most of the sdf-1's volume consists of machinery and overtechnology systems and such. it is 1200 meters in length from the front of its booms to the backmost part of the engines. if you think about it, all the systems running gravity, engines, and the main cannon take a hearty portion of this deep vessel. thats where i credit the artistic license.

Who says that the engines, gravity generators, and all other mechanical elements of the Macross take up more space per ton than conventional technology? Further, where is it said the "majority of the Macross consists of machinery and overtechnology?"

Looking at the anime series, the Macross is clearly streamlined and vacant. Huge sections of ship's interior are vast, open chambers. The ceilings are soaring, the docking bays are immense, and city sized sections of the ship are all open. The Macross is built like a can from what we see in the anime.

And that's just fine. Overtechnology is clearly a marvel of miniturization...just look at the Valkyries. The Valkyries contain all the internal components of a top of the line fighter and all the components of a top of the line mecha...in a chasis no larger than conventional fighters and weighing no more than comparable military equipment! Even more amazing, Valkyries contain everything necessary to travel in space for extended periods of time and later models even feature internal hardpoints!

So you see, Overtechnology is in fact smaller and less cumbersome than convetional tech. Were a Nimitz-Class aircraft carrier built with OT, it would probably fit twice as many people.

Skull Leader · February 22, 2004

It's difficult to imagine things like this, but would imagine that it IS possible.

When they redesigned the Macross for DYRL, they took care to make the interior look a considerable amout more unique than it's TV counterpart. When you build everything in Arcology style, you'd be amazed at how effectively vertical space can be used. DYRL Macross looks as though the interior were laid out in a more logical fashion. (I have Macross II deckplan sourcebooks by Palladium.. in which the UNS Macross is included. It lays out each individual deck... I know many don't consider such details canon, but they at least offer some idea.)

Godzilla · February 22, 2004

I'm currently rewatching Macross, and they said there was 56,000 Civilians in "Burst Point".
Randy

That was due to attrition on their way back to earth. It started off with 70,000 civilians.

MechASsemble · February 22, 2004

Do you guys give any credence to the Macross 2: Deck Plans Vol 3 that came out for the Palladium RPG?

They had a full multi-layer map of the Macross that sorta jelled with the DRL version of Macross City.

That version had most of the city in the engine section in multiple layers. With an EVE skyline it would give the multiple layers the illusion of living under the same "sky"

ewilen · February 22, 2004

Correction! It's a concert hall.

Right, sort of an amphitheatre. Remember, Hikaru was able to look down on it after parking his bike outside. And I think there was at least one other enclosed concert hall/TV studio.

Coota0 · February 22, 2004

but most of the sdf-1's volume consists of machinery and overtechnology systems and such. it is 1200 meters in length from the front of its booms to the backmost part of the engines. if you think about it, all the systems running gravity, engines, and the main cannon take a hearty portion of this deep vessel. thats where i credit the artistic license.

Who says that the engines, gravity generators, and all other mechanical elements of the Macross take up more space per ton than conventional technology? Further, where is it said the "majority of the Macross consists of machinery and overtechnology?"

Looking at the anime series, the Macross is clearly streamlined and vacant. Huge sections of ship's interior are vast, open chambers. The ceilings are soaring, the docking bays are immense, and city sized sections of the ship are all open. The Macross is built like a can from what we see in the anime.

And that's just fine. Overtechnology is clearly a marvel of miniturization...just look at the Valkyries. The Valkyries contain all the internal components of a top of the line fighter and all the components of a top of the line mecha...in a chasis no larger than conventional fighters and weighing no more than comparable military equipment! Even more amazing, Valkyries contain everything necessary to travel in space for extended periods of time and later models even feature internal hardpoints!

So you see, Overtechnology is in fact smaller and less cumbersome than convetional tech. Were a Nimitz-Class aircraft carrier built with OT, it would probably fit twice as many people.

You're absolutley right, the part of the ship Hiriku and Minmay were in after being lost was sealed off and completley unused.

KingNor · February 22, 2004

but most of the sdf-1's volume consists of machinery and overtechnology systems and such. it is 1200 meters in length from the front of its booms to the backmost part of the engines. if you think about it, all the systems running gravity, engines, and the main cannon take a hearty portion of this deep vessel. thats where i credit the artistic license.

Who says that the engines, gravity generators, and all other mechanical elements of the Macross take up more space per ton than conventional technology? Further, where is it said the "majority of the Macross consists of machinery and overtechnology?"

Looking at the anime series, the Macross is clearly streamlined and vacant. Huge sections of ship's interior are vast, open chambers. The ceilings are soaring, the docking bays are immense, and city sized sections of the ship are all open. The Macross is built like a can from what we see in the anime.

And that's just fine. Overtechnology is clearly a marvel of miniturization...just look at the Valkyries. The Valkyries contain all the internal components of a top of the line fighter and all the components of a top of the line mecha...in a chasis no larger than conventional fighters and weighing no more than comparable military equipment! Even more amazing, Valkyries contain everything necessary to travel in space for extended periods of time and later models even feature internal hardpoints!

So you see, Overtechnology is in fact smaller and less cumbersome than convetional tech. Were a Nimitz-Class aircraft carrier built with OT, it would probably fit twice as many people.

You're absolutley right, the part of the ship Hiriku and Minmay were in after being lost was sealed off and completley unused.

i agree with this post.

Beltane70 · February 22, 2004

the only other thing i have to question in the "reality" of the series is how the macross had 2 yrs of food for over 3x its initial military population for the voyage to earth.

The Macross' return to Earth only took 10 months, not 2 years. According to the timeline, the Macross leaves Earthspace on February 7, 2009 and returns sometime in mid-November of 2009. Factoring what was able to be salvaged from the city after the fold and at Mars, food was clearly not a problem.

As for space for 70,000 people, that's not as difficult as it seems. Being a bit conservative, I figured that each "leg" of the Macross has enough space to fit the volume of 3 football stadiums (that's with only using approximately half of the entire volume of each "leg") Giants Stadium in New Jersery can seat 80,000 people, enough for the entire city population.

KingNor · February 22, 2004

the only other thing i have to question in the "reality" of the series is how the macross had 2 yrs of food for over 3x its initial military population for the voyage to earth.

The Macross' return to Earth only took 10 months, not 2 years. According to the timeline, the Macross leaves Earthspace on February 7, 2009 and returns sometime in mid-November of 2009. Factoring what was able to be salvaged from the city after the fold and at Mars, food was clearly not a problem.

As for space for 70,000 people, that's not as difficult as it seems. Being a bit conservative, I figured that each "leg" of the Macross has enough space to fit the volume of 3 football stadiums (that's with only using approximately half of the entire volume of each "leg") Giants Stadium in New Jersery can seat 80,000 people, enough for the entire city population.

are you sure about 10 months? i thoguth it was years.. like 3 years

Nied · February 22, 2004

Remember, the Macross was originally designed for a Zentradi sized crew(or at least mostly zentradi sized), since a great deal of their jobs could be replaced by a human sized crew on a one for one basis, there'd be a ton of left over space. More than enough to fit a small city.

Ladic · February 22, 2004

I wonder where they got cow meat from? or was it mostly soy meat?

Coota0 · February 22, 2004

I wonder where they got cow meat from? or was it mostly soy meat?

Huh?

NoSuchFile · February 22, 2004

are you sure about 10 months? i thoguth it was years.. like 3 years

Space war one ended in 2010, the Macross launched in 2009, so no, 10 months not 3 years :blink:

Knight26 · February 22, 2004

The series was suppossed to take place over a 3 year period, SW1 only lasted about ten months of that. There is a two year gap and then the end of the series.

KingNor · February 23, 2004

The series was suppossed to take place over a 3 year period, SW1 only lasted about ten months of that. There is a two year gap and then the end of the series.

cool thanks, geeze, i'd ALWAYS thought it was a 3 year flight back. well now i gotta rewatch it again.

Wes · February 23, 2004

One way to look at it is to see the first episode where they show the Macross and the city around it. It's pretty big in comparison, but think about what it was there for: to repair the Macross. Seeing as it was complete, you can rationally assume how much of that city could be left out for just the citizenry and the nifty stuff they want.

柿崎速雄 · February 23, 2004

just a little bit off topic :

I think when the day the macross back to earth,

all the people of macross are already dead

during macross hit the sea surface......

the story was end there

Ladic · February 23, 2004

huh?

Skull Leader · February 23, 2004

Do you guys give any credence to the Macross 2: Deck Plans Vol 3 that came out for the Palladium RPG?
They had a full multi-layer map of the Macross that sorta jelled with the DRL version of Macross City.

That version had most of the city in the engine section in multiple layers. With an EVE skyline it would give the multiple layers the illusion of living under the same "sky"

<_<

I said the SAME THING nearly two posts earlier...

bsu legato · February 23, 2004

When this was last discussed back on the old boards, somebody posted this picture. To me it looks DYRL-ish, but I could be mistaken.

MechASsemble · February 23, 2004

Do you guys give any credence to the Macross 2: Deck Plans Vol 3 that came out for the Palladium RPG?
They had a full multi-layer map of the Macross that sorta jelled with the DRL version of Macross City.

That version had most of the city in the engine section in multiple layers. With an EVE skyline it would give the multiple layers the illusion of living under the same "sky"

I said the SAME THING nearly two posts earlier...

Whoops.... didn't read the last bit..

:huh: ...sniff.... my first post.... it's a SHAM!!!!

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70,000 in a ship thats 1.2km x 300m x 600m?

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