Lift on the bootlegging/pirating ban

[Duke Togo]

Seeing as Harmony Gold no longer seems to care about copyright law and have made it clear they will steal whatever they want, I am calling on MacrossWorld to lift the ban on discussions involving the bootlegging and pirating on these illegally licensed Macross products by Harmony Gold. I understand that there are certain legal reasons behind the ban as well, but I see no harm in its discussion, as long as no members are actually distributing it or producing it.

Discussing the quality of said products, and providing links to sites that distribute them should be allowed.

[Agent ONE]

Though I can see a mod comming in here and saying "No, because that would be breaking some kind of screwed up copyright laws or something," that really isn't the case here. WE can discuss anything we want just as long as we are not slinging bootlegs of "liscensed" products here... We can certainly have threads advertising that you can AIM someone for a bootleg copy of the Mospeda DVD set or something...

Keep in mind free speech in general when thinking about this guys, I mean hey; I am a member of a board that is dedicated to the discussion of Anabolic Steroid use (no I don't use them). The use of highly illegal drugs. Nothing can stop people from talking about it. Same issue here.

[Duke Togo]

I want to make it clear, I mean only discussing these products, and providing links to auctions and sites distributing them. I do not believe members themselves should be participating in the production and distribution of these products.

Edited February 18, 2004 by Duke Togo

[Stamen0083]

...and providing links to auctions and sites distributing them...

I believe that falls under distributing bootlegs, whether or not you are selling.

Whatever the case, I believe this is in bad taste, the thread should be killed, and BUYING OR SELLING BOOTLEGS OR LINKING OTHERS TO THOSE WHO DO should never be brought on the boards.

If you mention you happen to see a series through bootleg, that's OK. Telling others how to come across said bootleg is not.

[Agent ONE]

...and providing links to auctions and sites distributing them...

I believe that falls under distributing bootlegs, whether or not you are selling.

Whatever the case, I believe this is in bad taste, the thread should be killed, and BUYING OR SELLING BOOTLEGS OR LINKING OTHERS TO THOSE WHO DO should never be brought on the boards.

If you mention you happen to see a series through bootleg, that's OK. Telling others how to come across said bootleg is not.

Bad taste in your opinion... I think everything HG does is in bad taste so THIS won't keep ME from sleepin at night.

[Blaine23]

...and providing links to auctions and sites distributing them...

I believe that falls under distributing bootlegs, whether or not you are selling.

Whatever the case, I believe this is in bad taste, the thread should be killed, and BUYING OR SELLING BOOTLEGS OR LINKING OTHERS TO THOSE WHO DO should never be brought on the boards.

If you mention you happen to see a series through bootleg, that's OK. Telling others how to come across said bootleg is not.

First of all... it's been on the boards for years. We've all discussed bootleg toys... there's a thread about one on the first page in Toys as we speak. We've discussed bootleg DVDs at great length as well. We've had threads regarding the different Macross 7 sets, DYRL, Zero, etc.

I agree with Togo and AgentOne. There's absolutely nothing illegal about discussing them here and I think we should lift this ban, because it's half-hearted at best.

Now certain people, like Stamen, obviously have a moral/ethical problem with it. That's his choice.

I think constricting the site to please the complainers is a cop out. If someone doesn't agree with unlicensed product, he/she can make a choice to stay uninvolved. Basically, let's not let paranoia and "moral majority" run the boards.

Obviously, it's Shawn & Graham and the mods' decision... but this is my opinion.

[estacado06479]

...and providing links to auctions and sites distributing them...

I believe that falls under distributing bootlegs, whether or not you are selling.

Whatever the case, I believe this is in bad taste, the thread should be killed, and BUYING OR SELLING BOOTLEGS OR LINKING OTHERS TO THOSE WHO DO should never be brought on the boards.

If you mention you happen to see a series through bootleg, that's OK. Telling others how to come across said bootleg is not.

so let me get this straight, you can watch stolen programming, but just keep your mouth shut about it?

I make a decent living, but thats because i dont waste money on stupid crap, such as official dvd releases of things i could get for free on the net (thats everything). i will continue to serve these programs and many others on my fserve, because i beleive that noone should pay money for something that was once free to watch on TV...

dos centavos from me

[EXO]

The subject of thread: good idea.

Thread itself: bad idea, cuz for some reason they strict on this rule.

Blaine has a point though, how can we discuss toys and not other merchandise? We'd most likely say don't bother wih the boot and get the legite copy anyway. Just because its better quality (sometimes). Besides, HG doesn't have to worry, who in their right mind would boot RT? They don't care about Animego sales right? or else they'd be pushing it in all the retail stores.

[Duke Togo]

The subject of thread: good idea.

Thread itself: bad idea, cuz for some reason they strict on this rule.

Blaine has a point though, how can we discuss toys and not other merchandise? We'd most likely say don't bother wih the boot and get the legite copy anyway. Just because its better quality (sometimes). Besides, HG doesn't have to worry, who in their right mind would boot RT? They don't care about Animego sales right? or else they'd be pushing it in all the retail stores.

I am partially to blame for their strictness, I was the first one to really make an issue about it, and asked that it be stopped.

At this point, I see no harm with open discussion on the topic. I am not asking to set up a distribution ring on MacrossWorld.

[Max Jenius]

Well that's up to Shawn. Til then, the rule still stands.

[Duke Togo]

Well that's up to Shawn. Til then, the rule still stands.

Completely understood. I just wanted to raise the issue. If Harmony Gold can break US copyright laws...

[ewilen]

Is the ban written out in black and white? I don't see it in the forum rules, so I'm not even sure what's being discussed here. I see a lot of topics about HK bootlegs and downloadable fansubs; and they don't seem to run into any real trouble. Every once in a while somebody solicits info or help copying something that's licensed in the US (like the RT or Animeigo Macross DVD's), and they're generally greeted with a deafening silence. Which is as it should be in my opinion. Is there a grey area in between that I'm unaware of?

[Duke Togo]

Is the ban written out in black and white? I don't see it in the forum rules, so I'm not even sure what's being discussed here. I see a lot of topics about HK bootlegs and downloadable fansubs; and they don't seem to run into any real trouble. Every once in a while somebody solicits info or help copying something that's licensed in the US (like the RT or Animeigo Macross DVD's), and they're generally greeted with a deafening silence. Which is as it should be in my opinion. Is there a grey area in between that I'm unaware of?

Ya, Harmony Gold is now violating US Copyright law. If they aren't willing to abide by it, why should we respect their rights, especially the ones that they may or may not actually have.

[estacado06479]

/me quickly goes out and downloads the animeigo macross saga!!!!

[Nightbat]

Ya, Harmony Gold is now violating US Copyright law. If they aren't willing to abide by it, why should we respect their rights, especially the ones that they may or may not actually have.

Actually we have no proof of that yet!

I, for starters, don't want to see Shawn or MW get in trouble with lawyers that threaten to push MW into the trash for "allowing distribution of bootlegs"

whether those lawyers are in their rights or not, the least they are is a tremendous pain in the ... and can make it financially impossible for shawn to keep on running MW with just 1 or 2 lawsuits

Right now Boots are pretty much Low profile, we all know who we can ask for them

yet we don't advertise it, I like it that way

And I personally don't agree we should resort to the same lame... stuff HG is pulling right now

*hypothetically: the best way to get a certain company is to distribute their product en mass for free, stealing money out of their pockets like they are doing now, difference would be that no one is making money off it,..hypothetically ofcourse* which ofcourse if you ask me is Illegal and something you should not do!

[Opus]

Didn't your mommy teach you that two wrongs don't make a right?

[azrael]

Actually we have no proof of that yet!

I, for starters, don't want to see Shawn or MW get in trouble with lawyers that threaten to push MW into the trash for "allowing distribution of bootlegs"

Agreed. We have no proof. They have not show any proof. It's just a statement. It would be like me saying Shawn is a freakin-murdering bastard. Do I know that for sure? No. Has Shawn said anything that would incriminate him? No. It's just a statement. There is no proof to prove or disprove the statement. So why change it if all we make are statements with no proof?

[Stamen0083]

First of all... it's been on the boards for years.  We've all discussed bootleg toys... there's a thread about one on the first page in Toys as we speak.  We've discussed bootleg DVDs at great length as well.  We've had threads regarding the different Macross 7 sets, DYRL, Zero, etc.

I agree with Togo and AgentOne.  There's absolutely nothing illegal about discussing them here and I think we should lift this ban, because it's half-hearted at best.

I feel compelled to reiterate:

"If you mention you happen to see a series through bootleg, that's OK. Telling others how to come across said bootleg is not."

So my feelings about it is that we should be able to discuss bootlegs as we see fit, especially since it's such a prevalent and pretty much unavoidable part of our world that it would be ignorant to not. However, I do not believe in publicly annoucing where we got our bootlegs from, especially digital data.

One or two, or more, personal PM's, E-mails, IM's, etc... is fine. Publicly post an explicit link to where you can download things is not.

That's my personal feelings, like you said

so let me get this straight, you can watch stolen programming, but just keep your mouth shut about it?

Whether it is OK to watch bootlegged programming or not is up to the person, but like I said, if one feels that it is OK to watch it, one should still not mass distribute.

I am guilty (more often than not. Most of my exposure to anime is through bootlegs), but I don't go to message boards to post links like http://www.macross-bootlegged-anime-shows-free.com, right?

I make a decent living, but thats because i dont waste money on stupid crap, such as official dvd releases of things i could get for free on the net (thats everything). i will continue to serve these programs and many others on my fserve, because i beleive that noone should pay money for something that was once free to watch on TV...

What about things that were never free to begin with? Movies that cost millions of dollars to make and rely on people to give up 10 bucks each to see the work of art (or crap, as is too often the case ) to pay for the movie costs and allow the people to continue making movies that we love?

crap, I'd hate to think that Macross can never be made again because everyone refuses to buy the series, forcing Big West to go out of business and some half-assed hack (:cough: Harmony Gold :cough:) to pick up the pieces.

Edited February 19, 2004 by Stamen0083

[pfunk]

Well that's up to Shawn. Til then, the rule still stands.

Completely understood. I just wanted to raise the issue. If Harmony Gold can break US copyright laws...

Hate to say this, but if we start talking about bootlegs, adding links pointing too auctions or sites, obviuosly the purchase of thiese products is going to go up. OJ got away with murder, doesnt mean everyone else can or should. If its a product that you cant get under normal circumstances then I vote yeah, but otherwise I think its promoting boots.

[Agent ONE]

Well that's up to Shawn. Til then, the rule still stands.

Completely understood. I just wanted to raise the issue. If Harmony Gold can break US copyright laws...

Hate to say this, but if we start talking about bootlegs, adding links pointing too auctions or sites, obviuosly the purchase of thiese products is going to go up. OJ got away with murder, doesnt mean everyone else can or should. If its a product that you cant get under normal circumstances then I vote yeah, but otherwise I think its promoting boots.

Go here:

www.steroidology.com

I am a member there... It is a site completely dedicated to the discussion of the use of ilegal performance enhancing drugs. In America we have free speech, we can discuss whatever we want. The only thing keeping us from discussing ripping off HG is Shawns request to respect HG...

[Blaine23]

Weird area here...

I agree that we should be able to discuss whatever the hell we want, when we want to - as long as it relates to Macross.

I don't think we should do so as any sort of "retribution" or "response" to HG's current situation with the DYRL superposeables, etc... I could give a rat's hairy ass about whatever HG does... it should have no bearing on what we can and can't discuss.

I just think we are all citizens and can discuss what we choose. We all know that bootlegs are there and I'd hate to see us restricted because Macrossworld wants to be the Politically Correct Police, in regards to bootleg merchandise.

Some people don't want to discuss bootleg quality. That's fine for them, but there is no legal reason that we should not allow it to exist.

A good example - I think there's no one better to ask about various Macross 7 DVD bootlegs than some folks here on this board. Should I be banned or reprimanded for it?

[buddhafabio]

Is the ban written out in black and white? I don't see it in the forum rules, so I'm not even sure what's being discussed here. I see a lot of topics about HK bootlegs and downloadable fansubs; and they don't seem to run into any real trouble. Every once in a while somebody solicits info or help copying something that's licensed in the US (like the RT or Animeigo Macross DVD's), and they're generally greeted with a deafening silence. Which is as it should be in my opinion. Is there a grey area in between that I'm unaware of?

Ya, Harmony Gold is now violating US Copyright law. If they aren't willing to abide by it, why should we respect their rights, especially the ones that they may or may not actually have.

my 2 cents, what is this an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, just be better tha hg and boycott them, or do your best to inform the public and the victim of the copyright infringement. but by bootlegging you are only hurting big west and not hg so much.

[bsu legato]

Didn't your mommy teach you that two wrongs don't make a right?

No, but revenge is a dish best served with fava beans and a nice chianti.

[Agent ONE]

... by bootlegging you are only hurting big west and not hg so much.

Huh?

So if I rip and distribute for free the Mospeda DVD set, how am I screwing BW?

[Agent ONE]

Didn't your mommy teach you that two wrongs don't make a right?

No but my Father did tell me that nice guys finish last.

A lesson of war: At times doing evil is necessary to do good.

[Sumdumgai]

Well, we'll just have to wait and see what Shawn says.

It's probably best if we keep cool for now, think stuff over, and wait and see what happens.

In other words: Sharpen those pitchforks, ready the torches, take a deep breath and wait to see if the witch is as heavy as a duck. Because, logically, if she's made of wood, then she'll weigh as much as a duck and float in water!

Seriously though, before considering any kind of fan retaliation, let's see what happens (in reference to the YF-19 in the Robotech comics).

[pfunk]

... by bootlegging you are only hurting big west and not hg so much.

Huh?

So if I rip and distribute for free the Mospeda DVD set, how am I screwing BW?

In a way, yeah, cause your not buying it from them. I know they dont distribute over here, but if you get an original, they see that money

[Agent ONE]

... by bootlegging you are only hurting big west and not hg so much.

Huh?

So if I rip and distribute for free the Mospeda DVD set, how am I screwing BW?

In a way, yeah, cause your not buying it from them. I know they dont distribute over here, but if you get an original, they see that money

No man... BW has NOTHING to do with Mospeda. Mospeda was produced by some other company.

[tom64ss]

... by bootlegging you are only hurting big west and not hg so much.

Huh?

So if I rip and distribute for free the Mospeda DVD set, how am I screwing BW?

In a way, yeah, cause your not buying it from them. I know they dont distribute over here, but if you get an original, they see that money

No man... BW has NOTHING to do with Mospeda. Mospeda was produced by some other company.

....and all rights for Mospeada now belong to Harmony Gold, both outside and in Japan. Big West has absolutley nothing to do with Mospeada.

[tom64ss]

Didn't your mommy teach you that two wrongs don't make a right?

Yeah.......but three lefts does.

[buddhafabio]

i was not implying that bigwest owns Mospeda i was replying to blaine23, duke togo and ewilen, bootlegging various macross series .

now dont get me wrong i have gotten ahold of my fairshare of bootlegs. but i ended up buying what i liked and now own macross plus legit episodes. dyrl dvd. and could never find a link to download macross voxp and ended up buying it from a website based in la.

heck me buying a legit copy of vf-x2 in 2000 rekindled my love for robotech that made me thursty for more so i looked for newer series. and found macross plus.

[EXO]

A lesson of war: At times doing evil is necessary to do good.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Edited February 19, 2004 by >EXO<

[Duke Togo]

Anything with the Harmony Gold logo on it is fair game to me.

[pfunk]

... by bootlegging you are only hurting big west and not hg so much.

Huh?

So if I rip and distribute for free the Mospeda DVD set, how am I screwing BW?

In a way, yeah, cause your not buying it from them. I know they dont distribute over here, but if you get an original, they see that money

No man... BW has NOTHING to do with Mospeda. Mospeda was produced by some other company.

I didnt know that, I was refering to any company that is selling thier product, not necessarily BW or HG, Im talking about any licenced/copyrighted product. To the extreme, if you were selling your books and you only sold 20 and thier were 50 copies out thier, yo ulost money and hard work on 30 copies.

Personally for me it would be a moral thing. Take a look at the site you like Steroids.com I agree on free speech, but, every person has a moral and ethical obligation to society. I like the professionalism of this site as far as profanity, its barely exhistant. Thiers humor and inuendo's, but it doesnt get as bad as 1/2 the sites out thier.long story short, if it isnt broke, dont fix it. If i were Shawn, i wouldnt allow it,,,but thats my opinion and yes opinions are like "A" holes, everyone has one.

[ewilen]

i was not implying that bigwest owns Mospeda  i was replying to blaine23, duke togo  and ewilen,  bootlegging various macross series.

Hang on a sec. I realize that there's a lot of legal, ethical, and moral doublespeak surrounding these issues, but I want to make clear that when there's a legitimate R1 release of a product, I wouldn't encourage anyone to seek a downloadable fansub or HK-type bootleg of it--except possibly to supplement the translation. I'd also prefer to keep talk of doing so out of MW.

Edited February 19, 2004 by ewilen