If the Valks are painted black, that would

[mighty gorgon]

24-hour light-grey stealths?  Isn't that what F-22's are for?    Still, light grey is what they were painted years ago when they operated in daylight. 

Need more pics to evaluate the scheme's pattern.  The F-22's scheme (which is modified from the 80's F-15 scheme) sure wouldn't work on the F-117...

Well... you know, the F-117 should be named "A"-117 or "B"-117 actually, isn't it? The pic below SEEMS to show a jagged line between the two greys, but I can't tell for sure... Those are the only photos I got, and from the "official" source. The hi-res images should be available HERE.

Edited February 9, 2004 by mighty gorgon

[KingNor]

really in space, you woudln't be locating object by sight. now a days on earth most planes kill each other at ranges where they can't see each other.

[Coota0]

really in space, you woudln't be locating object by sight. now a days on earth most planes kill each other at ranges where they can't see each other.

I love people who say that. After WWII it was said that there would be no more in close dogfighting the aircraft were just too fast, Korea came along and MiGs were going toe to toe with Sabers. After Korea the US military was so convinced that there would be no more dogfights, no more visual aquisation and missiles would kill our enemies from miles away that they quit teaching ACM in Vietnam it was discovered that the missiles couldn't tell who was who, adn pretty soon F-4s and F-8s were tangling with MiGs again in a dogfight. The Navy got smart quiker than the Air Force and created Topgun, but the Air Force created the fighter weapons school, both to teach the use of aircraft weapons systems and to teach dogfighting. I thought we had probably learned our lesson, but with the advent of the F-22 and the JSF I hear people saying the same thing again, so I warn you not to make a statement like this.

[David Hingtgen]

The main problem is requiring visual ID of targets. And even that doesn't work sometimes. Doesn't matter if you've got a 100-mile range missile, if the rules of engagement require you to actually see it before you shoot it. F-14 is still #1 in that regard.

PS---the "real" name for the F-117 should be the A-11A. Right after our beloved Warthog.

[KingNor]

really in space, you woudln't be locating object by sight.  now a days on earth most planes kill each other at ranges where they can't see each other.

I love people who say that. After WWII it was said that there would be no more in close dogfighting the aircraft were just too fast, Korea came along and MiGs were going toe to toe with Sabers. After Korea the US military was so convinced that there would be no more dogfights, no more visual aquisation and missiles would kill our enemies from miles away that they quit teaching ACM in Vietnam it was discovered that the missiles couldn't tell who was who, adn pretty soon F-4s and F-8s were tangling with MiGs again in a dogfight. The Navy got smart quiker than the Air Force and created Topgun, but the Air Force created the fighter weapons school, both to teach the use of aircraft weapons systems and to teach dogfighting. I thought we had probably learned our lesson, but with the advent of the F-22 and the JSF I hear people saying the same thing again, so I warn you not to make a statement like this.

i can state it all i want, while yes people jumped the gun in stateing they would be fireing only missles a little soon. i stand by the fact that MOST (read it MOST, NOT ALL) kills today are done at ranges beyond sight, and im pretty sure just about ALLDETECTION is done beyond range of sight, if they then fly in closer for visual confermation thats a diffrent story.

trust me i'm careful with blanket comments. i just really really doubt it would matter at all what color your vehicle is in outerspace.

in space combat, you'd most likely be engaging targets at rediculous ranges, you can't see much of anything that's 3000 miles away or even 100 miles. even at say.. 12 miles, a jetfighter sized vehilce is going to be indicernable in the starfeild and wouldn't matter if it was black or bright pink.

i would be highly suspect of any kind of dog fighting in space simply because there is NOTHING to hide behind, we can see jupiter from here,there's no clouds, bad weather, mountains, or even getting "under radar" with that kind of line of sight there would really be no reliable way to get in close for dog fighting it makes way more sence we'd be takeing out each other with long range weaponry, missles or something new.

i think i'm slowly realizing this is a pretty rediculous topic to think too much about.

**opinion** paintcolor in space doesn't make a diffrence. thats my point.

Edited February 10, 2004 by KingNor

[David Hingtgen]

I've always been fond of the "giant mirror" theory for space camoflage. Just chrome-plate the whole plane. And depending on how scientifically sound the plot of the movie is, it might deflect lasers too!

[Akilae]

I've always been fond of the "giant mirror" theory for space camoflage. Just chrome-plate the whole plane. And depending on how scientifically sound the plot of the movie is, it might deflect lasers too!

hehe.. I was actually thinking of the next level: thermoptic camo.... but mirrors would work just as well in space

[Opus]

I've always been fond of the "giant mirror" theory for space camoflage. Just chrome-plate the whole plane. And depending on how scientifically sound the plot of the movie is, it might deflect lasers too!

If you were close to a star, like around the Earth, wouldn't a mirrored finish make you more visible by reflecting the star's light? For that matter wouldn't any color become reflective in that bright a light. The moon is grey dirt, pretty low-vis, but it still glows like a lightbulb.

[David Hingtgen]

Yeah, but like 99.99999999999% of space is empty. On TV, everything always takes place practically in-orbit, or near a really cool-looking nebula, just so stuff looks interesting. But you can assume that most of the time, you'll be in a pretty featureless area--aka "deep space". Not "3 hours out from Earth".

[Opus]

Yeah, but like 99.99999999999% of space is empty. On TV, everything always takes place practically in-orbit, or near a really cool-looking nebula, just so stuff looks interesting. But you can assume that most of the time, you'll be in a pretty featureless area--aka "deep space". Not "3 hours out from Earth".

If there's nothing in deep space then there would be no objectives in deep space therefore there would be little reason to fight a battle in deep space so most battles would probably occur around planets. That's the way I see it anyway.

[KingNor]

Yeah, but like 99.99999999999% of space is empty.  On TV, everything always takes place practically in-orbit, or near a really cool-looking nebula, just so stuff looks interesting.  But you can assume that most of the time, you'll be in a pretty featureless area--aka "deep space".  Not "3 hours out from Earth".

If there's nothing in deep space then there would be no objectives in deep space therefore there would be little reason to fight a battle in deep space so most battles would probably occur around planets. That's the way I see it anyway.

well, here's how I see it.

planet A is 100 light years from planet B

both planets decide to kill each other and send out space armadas.

now, you'd THINK that the armadas would probably duke it out about mid way.

what happens is both armadas, big as they are, miss each other by hundreds of thousand, if not millions of miles.

each armada utterly concours its enemys homeworld.

several hundred years later.. planet A and planet B decide to kill each other

repeat.

space is just too damn big.

[JB0]

Yeah, but like 99.99999999999% of space is empty.  On TV, everything always takes place practically in-orbit, or near a really cool-looking nebula, just so stuff looks interesting.  But you can assume that most of the time, you'll be in a pretty featureless area--aka "deep space".  Not "3 hours out from Earth".

If there's nothing in deep space then there would be no objectives in deep space therefore there would be little reason to fight a battle in deep space so most battles would probably occur around planets. That's the way I see it anyway.

well, here's how I see it.

planet A is 100 light years from planet B

both planets decide to kill each other and send out space armadas.

now, you'd THINK that the armadas would probably duke it out about mid way.

what happens is both armadas, big as they are, miss each other by hundreds of thousand, if not millions of miles.

each armada utterly concours its enemys homeworld.

several hundred years later.. planet A and planet B decide to kill each other

repeat.

space is just too damn big.

Unless, of course, one assumes a permanent near-planet defense force.

[Southcross]

Yeah, but like 99.99999999999% of space is empty.  On TV, everything always takes place practically in-orbit, or near a really cool-looking nebula, just so stuff looks interesting.  But you can assume that most of the time, you'll be in a pretty featureless area--aka "deep space".  Not "3 hours out from Earth".

If there's nothing in deep space then there would be no objectives in deep space therefore there would be little reason to fight a battle in deep space so most battles would probably occur around planets. That's the way I see it anyway.

well, here's how I see it.

planet A is 100 light years from planet B

both planets decide to kill each other and send out space armadas.

now, you'd THINK that the armadas would probably duke it out about mid way.

what happens is both armadas, big as they are, miss each other by hundreds of thousand, if not millions of miles.

each armada utterly concours its enemys homeworld.

several hundred years later.. planet A and planet B decide to kill each other

repeat.

space is just too damn big.

LMAO, that’s good... now who is keeping Minmay on ice (or has she been cloned)? Now what happens if Planet B makes peace with the expeditionary force of Planet A? While B concurs A's planet... 100 years later does it attempt to concur itself?

[mighty gorgon]

I've always been fond of the "giant mirror" theory for space camoflage.  Just chrome-plate the whole plane.    And depending on how scientifically sound the plot of the movie is, it might deflect lasers too! 

Like Amidala "SR-71-minus-wings"!!!!

(sorry but I could not miss this one!!!!)

Regds,

Gorgon

(p.d. now that you mentioned the A-10, I love it too...)

[Coota0]

well, here's how I see it.

planet A is 100 light years from planet B

both planets decide to kill each other and send out space armadas.

now, you'd THINK that the armadas would probably duke it out about mid way.

what happens is both armadas, big as they are, miss each other by hundreds of thousand, if not millions of miles.

each armada utterly concours its enemys homeworld.

several hundred years later.. planet A and planet B decide to kill each other

repeat.

space is just too damn big.

Kingnor said:

there is NOTHING to hide behind, we can see jupiter from here,there's no clouds, bad weather, mountains, or even getting "under radar" with that kind of line of sight there would really be no reliable way to get in close

So how are they missing each other if there's nothing to ruin the detection ability of either fleet?

[Opus]

well, here's how I see it.

planet A is 100 light years from planet B

both planets decide to kill each other and send out space armadas.

now, you'd THINK that the armadas would probably duke it out about mid way.

what happens is both armadas, big as they are, miss each other by hundreds of thousand, if not millions of miles.

each armada utterly concours its enemys homeworld.

several hundred years later..  planet A and planet B decide to kill each other

repeat.

space is just too damn big.

Kingnor said:

there is NOTHING to hide behind, we can see jupiter from here,there's no clouds, bad weather, mountains, or even getting "under radar" with that kind of line of sight there would really be no reliable way to get in close

So how are they missing each other if there's nothing to ruin the detection ability of either fleet?

Human error? If there's a way to screw something up, someone will find a way.

[Coota0]

Very true

[ewilen]

Most space ships are smaller than planets. Even if they can be seen, the resolution of sensors may not be enough to discriminate between ships and asteroids, etc. Furthermore, unless you have some kind of hyperspace sensors, by the time you see a ship, it's already somewhere else.

Besides, most battles aren't a case of "let's you and me fight". Usually, the weaker fleet is going to avoid contact with the stronger, unless there's an overriding objective to attack/defend. Due to the inability of sensors to provide up to date information on a distant enemy's location and speed, catching an uncooperative enemy is very much a guessing game.

Edited February 10, 2004 by ewilen

[Jasonc]

We're assuming this is still somewhere around a star to provide some sort of light. Even with certain gases, and starlight, if it was in deep space away from those objects, even the most colored and bright painted valk would be near impossible to see. That being said, I'm sure the pilots in space have to rely on the radar probably more than their immediate visuals.

[mikeszekely]

I remember hearing that it was suggetsed that the F-117 be painted a purple color instead of black because it would blend in with the night better, but the USAF said "We ain't having no stinkin' purple airplanes" so it's black. Maybe a purple would be a better camo.

I heard the same story. The USAF brass thought black planes were more badass

so F117s are black instead of a more low-viz purple or blue.

Actually, if I recall correctly, the USAF brass didn't believe that a stealth aircraft would work, so they had it painted black so that it only would fly at night. Now they're probably changing their minds since the stealth concept has been validated.

[KingNor]

So how are they missing each other if there's nothing to ruin the detection ability of either fleet?

vast goddamn distance.

i dont' think you peoples understand the vastness of space. i mean really.

your talking about ships the size of fighter planes in a battlefeild that dwarfs the SUN.

the friggin paint color isn't going to matter.

[Jasonc]

True that. But even in a large epic space battle, you could have a white plane, or yellow, or any flashy color and you'd never see it unless you were near a star or a nebula or the sort. Color would have no effect on visibility unless you were 5 feet from it.