If the Valks are painted black, that would

[vanpang]

I understand that valks in the anime are painted in different colours to differentiate the main characters and the CFs as well as the types of fighters.

But if the valks are painted black, it would be great camo in space wouldn't it.

Even though the colour black absorbs a lot of heat, I am sure the "overtechnology" would overcome this problem.

[JB0]

I understand that valks in the anime are painted in different colours to differentiate the main characters and the CFs as well as the types of fighters.

But if the valks are painted black, it would be great camo in space wouldn't it.

Even though the colour black absorbs a lot of heat, I am sure the "overtechnology" would overcome this problem.

Well, you still have a lot of stuff coming out the engines and verniers.

Besides, what about non-visible wavelengths? They'll show up like a lit candle in IR.

[1st Border Red Devil]

Doesnt necessarily have to be black...as an extreme shade of dark blue would work just as well....sort of blue-black.

Besides, what about non-visible wavelengths? They'll show up like a lit candle in IR.

That goes without saying I would imagine. However......I would think that Overtechnology would give man the answer to the super-conductor and that would significantly reduce the heat signature.

[kanata67]

Great idea until you try to remember where you parked!

while camo can be quite effective on ground, in water, etc... you have to figure that anybody you happen to meet in space is going to have some technology [they are after all space flight capable]. Not running into things while traveling in space is kinda important so you can assume they have radar. Best bet would be look like an asteroid and coast till you are close enough to power up and unleash some whoop-ass

[azrael]

But if the valks are painted black, it would be great camo in space wouldn't it.

There is a paint scheme in black already. The VF-17s of Diamond Force. *points at Graham's avatar*

[F360°]

Blacks good and all but what if a newbie flying a Valk crash into you cause he didn't check his radar. There's lots of newbies.

[JB0]

Doesnt necessarily have to be black...as an extreme shade of dark blue would work just as well....sort of blue-black.

Besides, what about non-visible wavelengths? They'll show up like a lit candle in IR.

That goes without saying I would imagine. However......I would think that Overtechnology would give man the answer to the super-conductor and that would significantly reduce the heat signature.

The heat's still got to go somewhere. Most of it straight out the back of the plane.

There's really no way around it that I can see, aside from flooding enemy IR sensors with a bigger heat source.

[ewilen]

You could send out a bunch of decoys. Mylar balloons, heated to the proper temperature, would do the trick as long as you're coasting and not actively maneuvering.

[Southcross]

Well you could easily strafe a friendly thats beyond your target. Radar or no radar, when your leading your target with your guns your not watching your radar.

[buddhafabio]

yes but what is the easiest color to see when you nee to rescue a pilot in space?

the cockpit is pretty small object on radar. and other than a homing beacon i would figure whitewould be the best for seeing you

[Mule]

Most important of all, it would make those dramatic space battle scenes really hard to watch.

[F-ZeroOne]

But if the valks are painted black, it would be great camo in space wouldn't it.

There is a paint scheme in black already. The VF-17s of Diamond Force. *points at Graham's avatar*

Yes, but thats because space in Macross 7 is blue, for Kawamoris sake!!!

[Pat Payne]

But if the valks are painted black, it would be great camo in space wouldn't it.

There is a paint scheme in black already. The VF-17s of Diamond Force. *points at Graham's avatar*

Yes, but thats because space in Macross 7 is blue, for Kawamoris sake!!!

Well, they did prove that in reality, the universe is a light beige...

[mikeszekely]

Doesnt necessarily have to be black...as an extreme shade of dark blue would work just as well....sort of blue-black.

Besides, what about non-visible wavelengths? They'll show up like a lit candle in IR.

That goes without saying I would imagine. However......I would think that Overtechnology would give man the answer to the super-conductor and that would significantly reduce the heat signature.

The heat's still got to go somewhere. Most of it straight out the back of the plane.

There's really no way around it that I can see, aside from flooding enemy IR sensors with a bigger heat source.

But you're talking about the same sort of challenges that today's modern stealth aircraft face. The F/A-22 uses IR absorbent paint, uses fuel to cool its leading edges, and has two dimensional nozzles that create a flatter exhaust plume that dissipates heat quickly. Now, if that's what we can do with conventional technology, I'm sure OT can come up with a few better.

Black is fine for being hard to see in space, but what about in an atmosphere? One of the reasons the Raptor is usually a mottled blue-grey is that it's harder to see in the sky.

[ewilen]

But you're talking about the same sort of challenges that today's modern stealth aircraft face. The F/A-22 uses IR absorbent paint, uses fuel to cool its leading edges, and has two dimensional nozzles that create a flatter exhaust plume that dissipates heat quickly. Now, if that's what we can do with conventional technology, I'm sure OT can come up with a few better.

Well, considering some elements of Overtechnology break the laws of physics as we currently understand them, that's a definite maybe.

But you do have to consider that objects will show up much more distinctly against a background of empty space (which happens to be extremely cold) than they will against the earth's atmosphere.

[Coota0]

Doesnt necessarily have to be black...as an extreme shade of dark blue would work just as well....sort of blue-black.

Besides, what about non-visible wavelengths? They'll show up like a lit candle in IR.

That goes without saying I would imagine. However......I would think that Overtechnology would give man the answer to the super-conductor and that would significantly reduce the heat signature.

I remember hearing that it was suggetsed that the F-117 be painted a purple color instead of black because it would blend in with the night better, but the USAF said "We ain't having no stinkin' purple airplanes" so it's black. Maybe a purple would be a better camo.

[Lightning]

slight problem with black valks.......the sensors in the Regaults can pick up anything that doesnt have a type of active cloaking system. hence, no black valks.

[F-ZeroOne]

But if the valks are painted black, it would be great camo in space wouldn't it.

There is a paint scheme in black already. The VF-17s of Diamond Force. *points at Graham's avatar*

Yes, but thats because space in Macross 7 is blue, for Kawamoris sake!!!

Well, they did prove that in reality, the universe is a light beige...

Good grief, does that mean my PC case is made from dark matter or something...?!

[David Hingtgen]

The weird F-117 camo wasn't just suggested, some WERE painted pinky-beige and blue. Go look at the prototypes, etc. In-service ones are black, because the USAF did refuse that scheme and the various other varations.

Pink IS the overall best camo for all things. Ships, planes, tanks.

[mighty gorgon]

The weird F-117 camo wasn't just suggested, some WERE painted pinky-beige and blue.  Go look at the prototypes, etc.  In-service ones are black, because the USAF did refuse that scheme and the various other varations. 

Pink IS the overall best camo for all things.  Ships, planes, tanks. 

The bird was the "have blue". Check HERE. The non black F117 is HERE. BTW, I built a 1:72 F117 painted in "my intepretation" of the HAVE BLUE Camo. It did not came out very well....

Regds,

Gorgon

Edited February 7, 2004 by mighty gorgon

[JB0]

Doesnt necessarily have to be black...as an extreme shade of dark blue would work just as well....sort of blue-black.

Besides, what about non-visible wavelengths? They'll show up like a lit candle in IR.

That goes without saying I would imagine. However......I would think that Overtechnology would give man the answer to the super-conductor and that would significantly reduce the heat signature.

The heat's still got to go somewhere. Most of it straight out the back of the plane.

There's really no way around it that I can see, aside from flooding enemy IR sensors with a bigger heat source.

But you're talking about the same sort of challenges that today's modern stealth aircraft face.

Not really.

Modern aircraft don't have tiny stars packed into their engines.

The F/A-22 uses IR absorbent paint,

I thought it was radar-absorbent paint.

uses fuel to cool its leading edges,

Not a problem in space, where heat comes from the inside, not the outside.

Leading edge heat is from atmospheric friction.

and has two dimensional nozzles that create a flatter exhaust plume that dissipates heat quickly. 

By mixing it into the outside air.

There's no outside air to mix with in space. Whatever shape your exhaust plume is, it's still a bright white spot in a pitch black background. Sure it dissipates, but the diffrence in temperatures is still massive.

[mikeszekely]

The F/A-22 uses IR absorbent paint,

I thought it was radar-absorbent paint.

Nope. From what I read, an IR absorbent paint developed by Boeing, who was one of Lockheed's partners during that competiton.

Okay, so it's true that some of the solutions used to reduce IR signature wouldn't apply to a valk in space, but my point is still valid. If the UN wants to make stealth a focus in their next-gen variable fighters, they're going to develop technologies to make stealth work. And with everything else that they've done with overtechnology, it's feasible to believe that they used OT to reduce the IR signatures of fighters like the VF-17 and the VF-22.

[JB0]

The F/A-22 uses IR absorbent paint,

I thought it was radar-absorbent paint.

Nope. From what I read, an IR absorbent paint developed by Boeing, who was one of Lockheed's partners during that competiton.

Okay, so it's true that some of the solutions used to reduce IR signature wouldn't apply to a valk in space, but my point is still valid. If the UN wants to make stealth a focus in their next-gen variable fighters, they're going to develop technologies to make stealth work. And with everything else that they've done with overtechnology, it's feasible to believe that they used OT to reduce the IR signatures of fighters like the VF-17 and the VF-22.

But it has to be reduced a LOT farther to be even marginally effective.

I'm leaning towards active IR countermeasures. Flares, mainly. Though a good low-power laser can blind a missile, why bother when it can be vaporized by a higher power one?

[mikeszekely]

Though a good low-power laser can blind a missile, why bother when it can be vaporized by a higher power one?

Actually, that's basically what they do in Macross. That's why in fighter mode, for most VFs, the head lasers point behind the aircraft.

[JB0]

Though a good low-power laser can blind a missile, why bother when it can be vaporized by a higher power one?

Actually, that's basically what they do in Macross. That's why in fighter mode, for most VFs, the head lasers point behind the aircraft.

Well, that's not really serving to confuse IR sensors, is it?

I suppose the explosions from the missiles could serve as flares to divert other missiles...

[Akilae]

I forgot where I read this from... so it might be totally inaccurate.

Having a *black* plane is actually very bad camo... at least on earth. Consider: even on the darkest of nights, the sky is full of stars. A black plane would simply be a black outline, not the most visible, but still quite noticeable.

Didn't the Germans do this kind of research back in WWII? Their conclusion: mottled camo.

If it all boils down to dogfighting though, I think invisiblity would be less important... anything to affect the enemy's perception of your speed and heading would be more so.

Just my amateurish $.02

[Final Vegeta]

Pink? Purple? I didn't think Varuta's army was that stealth

Btw, someone complained VF-0 didn't make enough noise for conventional engines. In fact low noise seems to be one of the features of stealth.

FV

[Coota0]

It just occured to me shouldn't the VF-0s and SV-51s be painted in low vis camo or at least what the russkies use today and what we use? Afterall they don't fly in space.

[David Hingtgen]

Yes, black does suck on Earth, at night. That's why B-2's are dark grey, not black. (F-117's are black just because the AF wants them that way). Earth NEVER gets *pitch* black, only very dark blue. 99% of the time, a ship or plane is spotted because it is darker than it's background--and black is darker than anything, even the night sky.

Surprisingly, on a moonless, utterly dark night in the middle of the ocean, white is supposed to be best. Of course, that rarely occurs. If there's ANY local light, it's the worst.

Stealths ARE quiet, but it's a side-effect. The real goal is to make the engines cooler, to lower the IR signature. However, that's also the best way to reduce noise. Airliners try to have as cool exhaust as possible to make them quiet, fighters do it to reduce their heat signature. Of course, nowadays, it's a good idea for airliners to have lower IR signatures too...

The methods are very similar, as regardless of what you're trying to do, it's going to happen by mixing the exhaust with the ambient air more rapidly and thoroughly. The latest 777 engines even have serrated exhausts. It all goes together.

[mighty gorgon]

Yes, black does suck on Earth, at night.  That's why B-2's are dark grey, not black.     (F-117's are black just because the AF wants them that way).

The A.F. may be changing it's mind... I've found these 2 pictures in the Air Force website... they seem to be fairly recent (Dec. 2003?), and show an experiment of painting an F117 in a two tone gray scheme, as they plan to operate the F117 in daylight also.

This is a quotation from the original article: "The chief of staff wants to have a 24-hour stealth presence over future battlefields," said Lt. Col. Buck Rogers, Det. 1 operations officer. "We know our current black paint scheme wouldn't be a good color for daytime operations."

( Lt. Col. "BUCK ROGERS"??????????? )

Regds.

Gorgon (stealthhhhhh)

Edited February 9, 2004 by mighty gorgon

[mighty gorgon]

The "Bird of Prey" was designed to test several ideas on "daylight stealth", including the strange white spot in front of the engine. It interesting to note that the heat of the engine is "visible" as the turbulent wake from the exhaust...

[David Hingtgen]

24-hour light-grey stealths? Isn't that what F-22's are for? Still, light grey is what they were painted years ago when they operated in daylight.

Need more pics to evaluate the scheme's pattern. The F-22's scheme (which is modified from the 80's F-15 scheme) sure wouldn't work on the F-117...

[hellohikaru]

Remember the movie Interceptor(Prochnow, Divoff)...i think it had one the the Nighthawks painted in a splinter scheme.

[Skull00]

I remember hearing that it was suggetsed that the F-117 be painted a purple color instead of black because it would blend in with the night better, but the USAF said "We ain't having no stinkin' purple airplanes" so it's black. Maybe a purple would be a better camo.

I heard the same story. The USAF brass thought black planes were more badass

so F117s are black instead of a more low-viz purple or blue.

[Lightning]

<sighs> and once again no one pays attention to my post at all......