Valk's engines..important question.

[Lightning]

ok, we all know valk's have thermonuke engines, and long ago we discussed how thermonuke engines would run and all, my question is, the front of the motor is at the front of the intake (yea L06! it's obvious! i know) but does the motor do any moving when it(the valk) gets switched to Gerwalk config? does it move backwards in the leg? does it have bendable sections? can anyone answer my question?

[Göönk]

I think the motor is in the first part of the leg, near the intake.

once i saw a cut of a Gerwalk and I saw the engine there. So, the thrust goes through the whole leg and joints... which is impossible in real world.

[David Hingtgen]

Anyone got a good cutaway? Because I think it's fairly well established that it's only the intake's guide vanes you see, not the 1st stage fan, in the intake. (Though they are about the most fan-like vanes I've ever seen) (And I can't think of any engine with a *significant* gap between the vanes and the engine itself)

[ewilen]

Good question. Here are some pics that might help.

First: detail of the engine section from the Gold Book poster.

[ewilen]

Next, two pics from the This is Animation Original Illustration portfolio. These are from an auction, but I have the portfolio and can make better pics soon. Somebody please remind me if I don't do it by tomorrow evening.

[ewilen]

Second pic from portfolio:

[Lightning]

if anything, the first pic looks most useful, i didnt know it was in 2 different sections altogether, is there some shaft that connects the two sections or are they independent of each other?

reason why i'm asking this is the same basic layout is used in the -1, -11, -17 and the -19, i'm not sure about the -9 though.

[Knight26]

That forward fan acts to pump air down to the main engine in gerwalk mode, in fighter mode it would like just rotate the vanes straight to act as intake guides. In fighter mode it would actually be somewhat of a deteriment at high speeds, it would be most useful in gerwalk.

[Anubis]

That forward fan acts to pump air down to the main engine in gerwalk mode, in fighter mode it would like just rotate the vanes straight to act as intake guides. In fighter mode it would actually be somewhat of a deteriment at high speeds, it would be most useful in gerwalk.

I'd agree there. The fan at the front of the intake probably is meant to force air to the engine in Gerwalk mode. Here's a zoomed in shot of the earlier cutaway. There's nothing significant in the upper leg intake.

[Anubis]

What I'd like to know is how the air is supposed to be routed through the YF-21/VF-22.

Given the leg placement inside the fuselage, and the movement of the backpack where the engines are actually mounted, it must be one wierd damn intake system.

I could only guess after staring at it that the air comes in from the front intakes, merges into one "tunnel" in between the legs, and branches out again to the engines. Two different connection socket sets would be on this tunnel for when the backpack moves up for battroid. It's all I could figure.

Other than that VF, all the engine intakes look just about the same basic principle as the VF-1.

[Lightning]

thanks for the help guys, this question has been bugging me for ages!

[ewilen]

Better pics. Here are scanned details from the respective illustrations.

Edited February 4, 2004 by ewilen

[ewilen]

Battroid:

[David Hingtgen]

Ah, that actually makes sense. The engine itself is in the lower leg, but there's an auxiliary air pump (which looks way too much like a whole 'nother engine, though it could function as a pre-compressor) that sucks in air, and sends it down the articulated intake to the engine.

And actually, with a system like that, no valk would have need for variable intake ramps, since the pump/pre-compressor could take care of all airflow requirements...

Of course, a disadvantage would likely be high inlet temps, which is often THE limitation on an engine's power. (But since we know valks are made of nigh-magical stuff, they can probably take 10,000 degrees....)

Edited February 4, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Capt_Bob]

Perhaps the thing in the thigh is part of the hydraulics system necessary for walking and transformation.

PS: Do Valkyries walk in Gerwalk? stupid question but all I've seen Gerwalk do is hover and land.

[Southcross]

Perhaps the thing in the thigh is part of the hydraulics system necessary for walking and transformation.

PS: Do Valkyries walk in Gerwalk? stupid question but all I've seen Gerwalk do is hover and land.

Walking in Gerwalk mode is kind of an Oxymoron. Leg movement was pretty much used to change the direction of the thrust. I might be proven wrong, but I also have never seen a Gerwalk "walk"

[Gerwalker]

Then you've never seen Macross 0....Gerwalk walking can be seen in more than one scene.

Yours,

GERWALKER

[Final Vegeta]

What I'd like to know is how the air is supposed to be routed through the YF-21/VF-22.

I've heard even the YF-23 didn't have a straight airflow, but they have a twist (which someway speeded up the plane).

Anyway, if it has morphings wings it may just have morphing ducts as well. But I think it is simply like leg articulation in GERWALK (plus a stretching for fighter mode).

FV

[Southcross]

Then you've never seen Macross 0....Gerwalk walking can be seen in more than one scene.

Yours,

GERWALKER

But with all the inaccuracies found in Mac0, Walking Gerwalks... guess that makes sense

[Aurel Tristen]

ok, we all know valk's have thermonuke engines, and long ago we discussed how thermonuke engines would run and all, my question is, the front of the motor is at the front of the intake (yea L06! it's obvious! i know) but does the motor do any moving when it(the valk) gets switched to Gerwalk config? does it move backwards in the leg? does it have bendable sections? can anyone answer my question?

The super conducting ram-air recitification fan in front of the main engine is stationary. There is bendable/extendable duct connecting the two units through which the air can pass through.

[Aurel Tristen]

Ah, that actually makes sense. The engine itself is in the lower leg, but there's an auxiliary air pump (which looks way too much like a whole 'nother engine, though it could function as a pre-compressor) that sucks in air, and sends it down the articulated intake to the engine.

And actually, with a system like that, no valk would have need for variable intake ramps, since the pump/pre-compressor could take care of all airflow requirements...

Of course, a disadvantage would likely be high inlet temps, which is often THE limitation on an engine's power. (But since we know valks are made of nigh-magical stuff, they can probably take 10,000 degrees....)

Air is the primary fuel component for a Valkyrie while it is in the atmosphere. The variable intake ramps do assist in controlling optimum airflow when needed at certain altitudes.

[Angel's Fury]

Correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like these two engines have two separate uses.

One is used for conventional flight, and the other one is used for V/STOL?

[Syngyne]

But with all the inaccuracies found in Mac0, Walking Gerwalks... guess that makes sense 

In one of the eps of the original series, you see Hikaru's Valk take a step in GERWALK mode. It's the ep where Quamzin(sp?) and some pals take Minmei hostage.

[David Hingtgen]

I've heard even the YF-23 didn't have a straight airflow, but they have a twist (which someway speeded up the plane).

All the current-gen stealths (22/23/35) have twisting intakes. It's for stealth, not speed. The YF-23 can blow past the YF-22 because it's sleeker, and has more powerful engines. YF-23 intakes go in, then up. That's pretty much how most of them do it, though it's more subtle in most others.

The X-32 is just simply fugly, its bass-like intake doomed it to be rejected, and to be "not very" stealthy.

[Lightning]

The X-32 is just simply fugly, its bass-like intake doomed it to be rejected, and to be "not very" stealthy.

"Thou shalt not make bass-mouth jet aircraft!"

[mikeszekely]

The YF-23 can blow past the YF-22 because it's sleeker, and has more powerful engines.

That's an unfair statement. One prototype of both the YF-22 and the YF-23 used the GE YF120 engines, and one prototype of each used the Pratt & Whitney YF119. It's true that the more conservative YF119s were the final pick for the F/A-22, but that didn't guarantee that if the YF-23 would have won, it would have got the YF120 engines. I'll give you that the YF-23 was faster becasue it was sleeker (you could tell me it's lighter, too, I'd believe that), but you can't tell me that the YF-23 had more powerful engines if it was using the same engines as the YF-22.

[David Hingtgen]

The YF-23, with the least powerful engines, was faster than the YF-22 with the most powerful engines. The YF-23 is inherently faster due to being way sleeker. It's so sleek, it surprised the engineers and pilots with how fast it accelerated on its first flight, how easily it supercruised, and they immediately stopped broadcasting its speed the first time it went to full 'burner after supercruising with the YF120's to hide just how fast it was going. It's really fast.

So, no matter what engine it has, the YF-23 is faster. But if it's got the 120 engine, then it's WAY faster.

[Greyryder]

Was a shame with the 23. It was better looking, and all around superior to the 22. As I understand it, the the only thing the 22 had on it was low speed hndling. The 22 won mostly for political reasons.

Is it just me, or does the YF-21 Stealth Valkyrie look an awful lot like the YF-23?

[mikeszekely]

The YF-23, with the least powerful engines, was faster than the YF-22 with the most powerful engines. The YF-23 is inherently faster due to being way sleeker. It's so sleek, it surprised the engineers and pilots with how fast it accelerated on its first flight, how easily it supercruised, and they immediately stopped broadcasting its speed the first time it went to full 'burner after supercruising with the YF120's to hide just how fast it was going. It's really fast.

So, no matter what engine it has, the YF-23 is faster. But if it's got the 120 engine, then it's WAY faster.

Right, so the YF-23 is faster. I never wanted to contest that. I just wanted to point out that they had the same engines, and just because the F/A-22 wound up with the 119s, doesn't mean the YF-23 had the more powerful engine. Just the YF-23 with the 120.

I was given to understand that they decided to use the 119 because P&W had more experience with thrust vectoring. If that's the case, even if the YF-23 beat the YF-22, it might still have been fitted with the 119.

[ewilen]

Was a shame with the 23. It was better looking, and all around superior to the 22. As I understand it, the the only thing the 22 had on it was low speed hndling. The 22 won mostly for political reasons.

I thought it was the low speed handling (maneuverability in dogfights). Which reflects an Air Force mindset that was probably wrong for the original mission (defending Europe against the Red Hordes), but which might be the right one for the kinds of conflicts the US is most likely to find itself in for the forseeable future. (Although, that's only relative to the -23. There are other options that might be better than either aircraft.)

[Greyryder]

Dog fighting is rapidly looking to become a thing of the past. The idea now is to build a plane that can shoot down the other guy, before he even knows that you're there. Engagement ranges are beyond visual, now.

The main reason I've heard for the 22 being picked (and I'm not saying my info is infalable) is that the 22 was built by the company that made the F-117 ahead of schedule, and under budget. The 23 was built by the same company that made the B-2 behind schedule, and woefully over budget.

[ewilen]

Dog fighting is rapidly looking to become a thing of the past. The idea now is to build a plane that can shoot down the other guy, before he even knows that you're there. Engagement ranges are beyond visual, now.

Well, that is my point. They're beyond visual...except when rules of engagement require visual ID. And for many or most of the missions our jets are likely to face in the coming decades, there are probably going to be restrictive ROE that could bring them within visual range of opponents.

(Aside from that, in reading other forums, I've been reminded that as stealth technology becomes more widespread, WVR combat becomes more likely.)

[Greyryder]

I believe I've been schooled. Though I had understood low speed handling to be closer to stall speed. This is one of those subjects where I know just enough to be dangerous. (to my self)

I was always more of an attack chopper guy myself, anyway. Always found it unatural to not be able to stop, before you land.

[David Hingtgen]

Well, they wanted contradictory things (of course):

They wanted a long-range, supercruising stealthy plane, that was good at picking off bad guys from a distance with AMRAAM's---that would also beat the F-16 in its element. Those things don't go together. Northrop sacrificed some agility to get a lot more speed and stealth, Lockheed sacrificed a lot of stealth and speed to get some more agility.

The Air Force "officially" ranked speed and stealth as more important than agility---based on all of the above, the YF-23 should clearly have won. But then things changed (read: lobbyists/politics, and lots of little things creeping in like hangar size and access panel height), to the point that they decided the YF-22 would be built.

Plus the whole "YF-23's only a demonstrator, would take a LOT of work to make a workable plane, whereas the -22 can already fire AMRAAM's" argument from the pro-22 people. And then of course after it won, the -22 got new v.stabs, h.stabs, wings, intakes, cockpit, and forward fuselage...

The -23 would have "only" needed a new forward fuse/weapons bay, cockpit, and rear fuse...

Heh heh---22 vs 23 is about the most common Macrossworld aviation topic, after "how valk engines work in space" and the like.

mike---from what I've read, the YF119 was picked because it was low-risk--it was just a much-improved F100. The YF120 was a flat-out new type of jet. It was a variable-stage hybrid jet---not a turbojet, not a turbofan, and of course not a turboprop. People have been trying to make one for decades, GE finally succeeded, and it friggin rocked. But being so new and unique, it was considered too risky. Obviously, the fighter people and the commercial people never talked, because that type of engine is exactly what they've been asking for, for a Concorde replacement---it's pretty much assumed to be required if you want an economical SST. You need like super-duper-cruise--exactly what this is designed for. The F119 is sheer power, the F120 can optimize itself to be ultra-efficient when supersonic, and ultra-powerful when sub-sonic.

Basic history of aviation: nothing spectacular ever comes of slow, steady progress. Be risky, take leaps and bounds. B-47, 747, F-4, F-14, SR-71, B-2----the really good stuff is always very different from what comes before, not just an improved version.

Edited February 7, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[mikeszekely]

mike---from what I've read, the YF119 was picked because it was low-risk--it was just a much-improved F100. The YF120 was a flat-out new type of jet. It was a variable-stage hybrid jet---not a turbojet, not a turbofan, and of course not a turboprop. People have been trying to make one for decades, GE finally succeeded, and it friggin rocked. But being so new and unique, it was considered too risky. Obviously, the fighter people and the commercial people never talked, because that type of engine is exactly what they've been asking for, for a Concorde replacement---it's pretty much assumed to be required if you want an economical SST. You need like super-duper-cruise--exactly what this is designed for. The F119 is sheer power, the F120 can optimize itself to be ultra-efficient when supersonic, and ultra-powerful when sub-sonic.

Basic history of aviation: nothing spectacular ever comes of slow, steady progress. Be risky, take leaps and bounds. B-47, 747, F-4, F-14, SR-71, B-2----the really good stuff is always very different from what comes before, not just an improved version.

I've heard that case, too. Another one I've heard is that the 119 would be cheaper to build and maintain. I think the case between the engines and the case between the fighters are very similar... there are a lot of excuses flying around, but the bottom line is they picked the more conventional fighter, and they picked the more conventional engine. I'd say changing mentality with the powers that be are forcing a "play it safe" approach. You see that same mentality in the flight controls on the F/A-22... it limits the angle of attack to 60 degrees, although the fighter could in theory do better. A big part of that mentality is that during the Cold War, people felt they needed to do whatever it took to stay ahead of the Soviet Union. But after the Cold War ended, suddenly people are looking at the military's budget and saying "No way are we spending $86 billion on this thing!" They're cutting funding and cutting the production orders for the F/A-22 like nobody's business already. If they had something as unconventional as the YF-23 with the 120 engines, they might have eliminated the program altogether.