ChristopherB Posted May 14 Posted May 14 Hello, I'm very happy to announce and reveal the pictures for our recently completed prototype. I'm planning to sell it as a ready to install finished "toy" armor set for use with a toy Valkyrie, while also being offered in model kit unfinished form. Which is why I'm posting this thread in both the model and toy section so it will get more views and interest. This is an actual creation by Shoji Kawamori himself and not some fan art/fetish. https://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/vf-1j-armoredgerwalk.htm It has been released a single time more than 30 years ago by a single garage kit company in Japan, and maybe 10 or less were made. I'm the only known person in the world who owns the original, plus improved version as well as (2) built 1/100 Armored GERWALK kits. That's why I wanted to make it available as a ready to play/build armor set for an existing toy VF-1 so it's readily accessible for all Macross fans! It's been more than (20) years in the making through lots of disappointment and also success I never gave up to make this a reality. I have to give a lot of credit to my good friend @magicsp00n and partner in this endeavor. He and I worked together to come up with the Armored GERWALK (AG) armor set. Tony is very talented and I sincerely appreciate everything! As some of you know the history there was a contest, we started with the Yamato 1/48 in coordination with @fulcy. Later on in 2018 I invested a lot of money to finish the first two completed AG resin kits, which can be seen in this thread: https://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/45289-armored-gerwalk-project-vf-1/#comment-1376974 I decided to use the Bandai Hi-Metal R (HMR) 1/100 VF-1 as the underlying base for the AG set for several reasons. The size, the price, the availability, the flexibility, a plethora of VF-1 variants, because Tony & I owned quite a few, our friends love them, most Japanese resin kits especially transformable ones are that scale, plus all of the various 1/100 model kits to display alongside, 3D print size, material usage, shipping costs, and most importantly the great detail and fit of the Bandai HMR GBP-1 armor which has many similarities to the AG set in the legs, arms, forearms, and so forth. I hope to offer additional scale/manufacturer options in the future. We're not yet ready to offer these for sale, the purpose of this thread is to show off the prototype, and I've commissioned a finished (painted/weathered/decaled) set to share with everyone soon. To be clear we don't plan to make any structural or detail changes to the prototype at this time, we're happy with what we have. We plan to sell unfinished 3D printed boxed armor sets, finished boxed armor sets, and I have been working with someone to make posters, T-shirts, patches and then the box art. I'm hoping my good friend @Anasazi37might be willing to make the waterslide decals since he's the best I've ever met. To be clear, we have no plan to sell the STL files to protect our investment of time and money. Unfortunately as many of you know, there's some dishonest people that pirate other people's work. To be clear, this armor set will work with any HMR VF-1, except of course for two seater variants which I would like to make modifications to another set in the future. Your feedback regarding the following will be appreciated: 1.) Would you consider to buy a set, if so how many, and would you prefer an unfinished set and/or a professionally built limited edition set ready to install keeping in mind the price will be as reasonable as possible? 2.) Taking into consideration the price of a Bandai HMR VF-1J & GBP-1 set upon release to present being $150 to $200 and the fact it's mass produced. What would you consider to be a reasonable price for limited production and never before released set of 3D printed AG armor unfinished with a box, box art, and a finished AG armor set with the same? 3.) I'm considering to offer finished AG armor sets that are customized to the specific VF-1 Valkyrie you will display it with. For example, a Max & Milia blue/red/white scheme and so forth. Please let me know if this interests you. 4.) Lastly we would require a down payment especially for a finished set since the artist has to be paid for the commission, but likewise for a reasonable deposit for 3D printed kits due to material costs, time and to verify the commitment of the customer. Sincerely, Christopher & Tony Quote
ChristopherB Posted May 14 Author Posted May 14 Custom armor set made for a Wave 1/100 VF-1J, this shows the intended color scheme and so forth that can be achieved: Quote
ChristopherB Posted May 14 Author Posted May 14 Our prototype 3D resin printed armor set prototype: Quote
ChristopherB Posted May 14 Author Posted May 14 Video of parts being installed on a Bandai Hi-Metal R 1/100 VF-1J: Quote
nightmareB4macross Posted May 14 Posted May 14 A most magnificent masterpiece if I ever saw one. Excellent work everyone involved. Quote
Mommar Posted May 14 Posted May 14 I am down for all of this but I couldn't tell you what a custom painted version of this should cost. Quote
Sanity is Optional Posted May 14 Posted May 14 I'll be honest, I'd love one, but it really depends on how much it costs. The fact that you are planning to produce via 3d printing, rather than casting makes me worry a bit about the price. It looks great, and I do hope I can get a set. Quote
Jasonc Posted May 14 Posted May 14 I'd most likely get a set. I'm not a big HMr collector, so I'd probably only get one, but as with anything, it really depends on the price. As @Sanity is Optional has already said, I too, am a little worried about the materials. 3D printed material, even when it claims to be ABS like, doesn't hold up to that. There are materials that have the same properties, but those are quite pricey. As it is 3D printed, as long as that brings down the price, I'd still like to decorate my only HMr. Now, if you are considering a 1/60 kit, that I definitely can get behind. Quote
Anasazi37 Posted May 14 Posted May 14 9 hours ago, ChristopherB said: I'm hoping my good friend @Anasazi37might be willing to make the waterslide decals since he's the best I've ever met. To be clear, we have no plan to sell the STL files to protect our investment of time and money. Unfortunately as many of you know, there's some dishonest people that pirate other people's work. I've now done enough custom decal work for complex 3D printed projects (not Macross) designed by others to know what this would require. It wouldn't be a fast process or a simple one, if you want it done well. Ideally I'd want to work with the STLs to get all of the surface measurements right, both digitally and after printing the parts and applying test prints of the decals to make sure everything fits correctly. I've refined the technique over the past few years. This is assuming that I would have the free time to work on it and that is not guaranteed. My personal model and custom project backlog is massive and every time I take on a custom decal project like this that backlog gets bigger. Quote
jvmacross Posted May 14 Posted May 14 I'd only be interested in a "professionally built limited-edition, ready to install" set....$150-200 for a set that would look like the one you posted would be fair... HMR "scale" would be fine....but would also be intrested in a 1/60 or DX as well....I would also only be interested in the "standard" paint scheme you have used for your "demo"...good luck with your project, looks great! Quote
Mommar Posted May 15 Posted May 15 My feeling is for a full pro, ready out-of-box that $200 would be the low end for Hi-Metal size. Quote
TheLoneWolf Posted May 15 Posted May 15 What an incredible work, congratulations to you and Tony on a job well done! As an HMR fan, I'd love to have one. Around $200 is the most I'd be willing to spend on a professionally built version, but like Mommar said, I don't think that price is practical. As for other schemes, the only other one I'd be interested in is a Roy scheme. And a downpayment sounds perfectly reasonable considering the labor involved. Quote
Jasonc Posted May 17 Posted May 17 (edited) I just invested about $5K into the Formlabs 4 resin printer with their specialty resins that do well for parts that need to be engineered for moving. After testing several parts, they have a material that is true ABS in terms of material properties down the line, as well as some that are meant for extreme pliability and screws. If you want to try a crack at printing it with several types of materials, I can help out. That said, I'd still be in for buying one. I think the range of $150 seems about right for this, as it isn't a process requiring the time and labor involved as recasting would. Printing should keep cost down (unless you're using a printer that uses $150/Liter resin like this one does. Then I can see $150-$200. As an edit... I'm not going to quote for a fully ready to go kit. That is the time spent for the maker, and their time and what it's worth is up to them. I'd say $200 in that range is probably too low. I know that goes against the grain here, but as this is just my opinion, unless you don't mind being stuck preparing these for extended periods of time, unless the money is really good, I would stay away from that range, especially if it's only a $50 difference. Edited May 17 by Jasonc Quote
Chronocidal Posted May 20 Posted May 20 Compared with a few other printed resin kits I've picked up, I'd probably expect the raw printed parts (no cleanup, still on the tree) to run between $200-$250 for something this complex. The cost for a finished set would just be adding the cost for someone to paint and finish a pre-made resin kit for you on top of that. The initial investment to produce things of this type is only one part of the expense, and a larger printer will let you produce more parts at the same time, but the production process is still time intensive, and you're dealing with a lot of setup and cleanup with some pretty toxic chemicals. I don't know how it compares to regular resin casting, but they're both labors of love. The benefit of not having to worry about limited-use molds is great, but you still have to account for the losses from failed prints. That becomes less as printers get more reliable, but it's never something you can entirely disregard, especially with the cost of higher quality resin. Quote
Spark-O-Matic Posted May 23 Posted May 23 Looks great! good job! I would buy one or two depending on what they go with. 100% if you size it up for the ThreeZero Valks. HM-R is good too Quote
Jasonc Posted May 24 Posted May 24 On 5/20/2024 at 8:35 AM, Chronocidal said: Compared with a few other printed resin kits I've picked up, I'd probably expect the raw printed parts (no cleanup, still on the tree) to run between $200-$250 for something this complex. The cost for a finished set would just be adding the cost for someone to paint and finish a pre-made resin kit for you on top of that. The initial investment to produce things of this type is only one part of the expense, and a larger printer will let you produce more parts at the same time, but the production process is still time intensive, and you're dealing with a lot of setup and cleanup with some pretty toxic chemicals. I don't know how it compares to regular resin casting, but they're both labors of love. The benefit of not having to worry about limited-use molds is great, but you still have to account for the losses from failed prints. That becomes less as printers get more reliable, but it's never something you can entirely disregard, especially with the cost of higher quality resin. Working with 3D printers is nowhere near the same amount of time as recasting, and is much, much easier and quicker to use. Failed prints happen seldom once the printer resin settings are dialed in. Even then, one can pop up from time to time, but in general, they don't happen that often. Even then, depending on the cost of the resin used, and I've used about 20 various types, they often range from $20-$250. The only issue with most resin, even the ones that are supposedly ABS Like, is that most only have some sort of property like it, but it isn't and doesn't have other properties of it. These shouldn't be too expensive, but at the same time, it's really up to the seller to determine what they think it's worth. I would say that at the $200-$250 range, I have no point in buying a sort of armor pack that is about twice the amount of the toy itself. As a 3D printed part, you also have an ongoing supply, so you'll need to set the price to help create the demand (unless they decide to only print 20 or so). But that'd be odd. Unless they decide to do that, then sell the file to those that want to print it. Lots of options in that equation. Whatever they decide, I wish them all the best for it. It's a very cool project and one I'm potentially interested in. Quote
Mommar Posted May 25 Posted May 25 On 5/24/2024 at 9:03 AM, Jasonc said: Working with 3D printers is nowhere near the same amount of time as recasting, and is much, much easier and quicker to use. Failed prints happen seldom once the printer resin settings are dialed in. Even then, one can pop up from time to time, but in general, they don't happen that often. Even then, depending on the cost of the resin used, and I've used about 20 various types, they often range from $20-$250. The only issue with most resin, even the ones that are supposedly ABS Like, is that most only have some sort of property like it, but it isn't and doesn't have other properties of it. These shouldn't be too expensive, but at the same time, it's really up to the seller to determine what they think it's worth. I would say that at the $200-$250 range, I have no point in buying a sort of armor pack that is about twice the amount of the toy itself. As a 3D printed part, you also have an ongoing supply, so you'll need to set the price to help create the demand (unless they decide to only print 20 or so). But that'd be odd. Unless they decide to do that, then sell the file to those that want to print it. Lots of options in that equation. Whatever they decide, I wish them all the best for it. It's a very cool project and one I'm potentially interested in. It's nice to have the perspective of someone who has had hands on with Resin 3D printing. I don't, so was going off of previous prices. Quote
Jasonc Posted May 26 Posted May 26 5 hours ago, Mommar said: It's nice to have the perspective of someone who has had hands on with Resin 3D printing. I don't, so was going off of previous prices. No worries. It's also just my perspective, so I'm sure there's other sides I may not have considered, or at least have a different level of priority with in my assessments. Quote
Anasazi37 Posted May 26 Posted May 26 9 hours ago, Jasonc said: No worries. It's also just my perspective, so I'm sure there's other sides I may not have considered, or at least have a different level of priority with in my assessments. Based on the conversations you and I have had about resin printing, your perspective is an extremely valuable one for this community in general and this project in particular. Quote
DownIsUp Posted May 29 Posted May 29 This is a gorgeous project, I'm super excited to grab one! I think $150-$200 is fair for a complex resin kit like this. Mostly I'm just glad to see it exists! Quote
djivaldi7 Posted May 30 Posted May 30 3D printers are really great, but here's one counterpoint "if" this gets to where demand at a certain scale (1/60, 1/72 or 1/100) goes really high... about 20 years ago I contracted a China-based factory through an agent in Japan to recast two primary mechs from the Sega game Quovadis... the GX and the Felon. Amortized the tooling cost into an MOQ (minimum order quantity) of 50 each. Sold all but 3 of each on Ebay for my personal use. It more than paid for the risk I took on a very niche series. I took the huge risk because I totally missed out on the originals and was willing to do nearly anything to get my hands on them. At some point, getting with E2046.com or one of the resin clearinghouses for soft or hard tooling becomes faster and cheaper than 3D printing. I had one advantage in that the agent had access to the original tooling, it helped keep the setup costs down. Not sure what the 3D files provided would offset in comparison beyond engineering/CAD cost offset. Also, there was no such thing as crowdfunding like Kickstarter back then, so today a preorder cycle would be much better advertised and paid up-front, so with this certainty you could evaluate more easily whether the campaign crossed the 3D print vs. resin mould economic threshold. Granted, the marketing advantages of a Kickstarter campaign may or may not get offset by the fees when compared to the accessibilty and popularity of Ebay, but then again pre-selling via Ebay is frowned upon by some, and Ebay fees may be up there with Kickstarter...idk. I only bring this up so that any younger versions of me out there don't miss out like I did on earlier niche Macross projects, simply because the net wasn't cast out wide enough beyond MWForums. Quote
djivaldi7 Posted July 2 Posted July 2 any update on this project as we try to contain our excitement>? Quote
ChristopherB Posted July 21 Author Posted July 21 Thank you to everyone who has expressed an interest and for your feedback! Right now we're prepositioning stock so we can ship right away when we start accepting orders. Yes, I hope to offer AG sets for other scales and manufacturers as soon as possible. * The prototype AG is almost done, I don't want to show it off until it's 100% finished and we're even planning a photoshoot for everyone to enjoy. For now, please enjoy the single picture. A brand new Bandai HMR VF-1J & GBP-1 set was ordered just for this purpose. (The lines on the bottom will be cleaned up.) * I've commissioned custom box art, and a special limited edition full graphics box. * Someone is working on decals and I hope to include some really cool WWII style Macross nose art from a vintage Japanese set. * I've commissioned a custom AG poster for customers, and we're working on other AG art that will be available for purchase. * 10 AG sets have been printed & are in progress to be sold as finished ready to use sets. * 10 AG sets are being printed and will be sold as unfinished sets. Feedback I've received is that $100 for an unfinished set is considered to be reasonable. Please let me know what you guys think. I have a price in mind for the finished sets as well and will post it when the pictures have been uploaded here to this thread. Quote
Mommar Posted July 21 Posted July 21 6 hours ago, ChristopherB said: Thank you to everyone who has expressed an interest and for your feedback! Right now we're prepositioning stock so we can ship right away when we start accepting orders. Yes, I hope to offer AG sets for other scales and manufacturers as soon as possible. * The prototype AG is almost done, I don't want to show it off until it's 100% finished and we're even planning a photoshoot for everyone to enjoy. For now, please enjoy the single picture. A brand new Bandai HMR VF-1J & GBP-1 set was ordered just for this purpose. (The lines on the bottom will be cleaned up.) * I've commissioned custom box art, and a special limited edition full graphics box. * Someone is working on decals and I hope to include some really cool WWII style Macross nose art from a vintage Japanese set. * I've commissioned a custom AG poster for customers, and we're working on other AG art that will be available for purchase. * 10 AG sets have been printed & are in progress to be sold as finished ready to use sets. * 10 AG sets are being printed and will be sold as unfinished sets. Feedback I've received is that $100 for an unfinished set is considered to be reasonable. Please let me know what you guys think. I have a price in mind for the finished sets as well and will post it when the pictures have been uploaded here to this thread. You have no idea how badly I'm looking forward to hearing the finished sets. Quote
Radioguy Posted July 21 Posted July 21 Wish there was an official finished price in that announcement. Quote
djivaldi7 Posted July 21 Posted July 21 Since this has been going on awhile and memory fades, and fishing through old posts is exhausting... asking if you would please post a re-summarized statement for pre-order: 1. Presuming $100 ea, where/how will you take orders and payment? Deposits first? Or 100% paid in advance? 2. Which brand and scale will we need to base it on? Or, what exactly do we need to have before we get this? 3. First come, first served? Order limit 1 for the first few weeks so nobody gets left out and then open it up for infinite qty after a few weeks go by? Thx Quote
Mommar Posted July 21 Posted July 21 2 hours ago, djivaldi7 said: Since this has been going on awhile and memory fades, and fishing through old posts is exhausting... asking if you would please post a re-summarized statement for pre-order: 1. Presuming $100 ea, where/how will you take orders and payment? Deposits first? Or 100% paid in advance? 2. Which brand and scale will we need to base it on? Or, what exactly do we need to have before we get this? 3. First come, first served? Order limit 1 for the first few weeks so nobody gets left out and then open it up for infinite qty after a few weeks go by? Thx HMR. Quote
vladykins Posted July 22 Posted July 22 Luckily I think I have an extra Hikaru 1J HMR floating around- otherwise I'd need to go buy more. Quote
ChristopherB Posted August 8 Author Posted August 8 Another update, the first 10 finished sets are done! I'm finishing up the box art commission and we'll be doing a photoshoot once the prototype is received by the photographer. @djivaldi7 I hope you're doing well, and thanks for your questions! For my part, this has been going on around (20) years. But we've made a lot of progress on this project, and all the information you need can be found in this forum thread. 1.) Yes, $100 for unfinished kits and I'm thinking $200 is reasonable for finished kits. (We'll see if we can also offer free shipping within the continental US.) My reputation is on the line, so I won't ask for any deposits. When the un/finished kits are boxed and ready to be mailed I'll give advance notice here so everyone is ready. I think we'll start with 10 of each type. 2.) All Bandai HMR VF-1 Valkyrie single seaters. (Although I've been wanting to also offer a two seater variant since last year, and hope to in the near future. Just waiting on clearance from the 3D designer that he has the time and interest.) 3.) 1st come, 1st served and 1 per person are all great/fair suggestions, which we'll do for the first one to three batches. Thanks for everyone's patience. You can think of this project like the Japanese garage kit companies, which sell limited edition kits at the Wonder Festivals. Something that seems simple like obtaining Macross 1/100 decals, can actually be quite difficult. Our team consists of: 3D designer, finished kit artist, myself handling public interaction/sales, decal maker and box design/promotional material artist. Please let me know if you have any further questions. Quote
Radioguy Posted August 8 Posted August 8 @ChristopherB What payment methods are you considering/working on? Something that allows installments might make the difference between going painted or unpainted for some. *cough* 😉 Quote
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