Before 2002, how much bigger a force for merch sales was Macross compared to Gundam?

[UnqualifiedForumGuy]

Hello! This is my first time in the forum and I couldn't find the "new users intro" thread so consider this my entrance.

I was sent here by Ollie Barder of Forbes (u/Cacophanus on Reddit) after seeing that I needed help in writing a blog for r/anime and r/CharacterRant. This is a draft of that rant. My biggest questions revolve around Macross' sales and merchandising performance relative to Gundam, especially before the turn of the millennium.

Specifically I want to learn more about what Ollie meant in answer 5 and 6. I realize that it may be hard to find concrete figures, but I'm after the overall difference in scale and reception of the two franchises to help me understand why things turned out the way they did today.

[jvmacross]

This has been asked several times before.  There really are no available "hard" numbers when it comes to Macross.  The only figure ever really tossed around that actually came directly from former Takatoku/Bandai execs was the claim of 1M VF-1J units sold during the SDFM Era.

Before 2002 and immediately after 1984-1985...there was a large chunk of time where officially released Macross merch was few and far between.....after the release of DYRL, the only merch that came after were the 3 Bandai HCM VF-1s, a "resurrection" Super VF-1S in 1990, and then a few Macross 7 toy releases and accompanying music releases during the release of M7.....it wasn't until the re-release of the old Takatoku 1/55's molds that things started to pick up again, in terms of merch for Macross.  Those releases eventually lead to the rise of Yamato, which was a sort of new "golden age" of Macross toy releases.

There was an old toy trade publication called Toy Journal that may have contained the "sales figures" you seek, but I am not 100% sure if that info would be available within those toy trade industry magazines.  I have a few from the SDFM era, but have not looked particularly "hard" into trying to see if that information exists within them.  Additionally, they are hard to come by, at least covering the years you would need.

It would be "nice" to have this info, but honestly, it may not be worth the effort to try and gain it.

I have always wanted a book dedicated to the "merch of Macross throughout the years", but that will probably never happen.

Edited April 12 by jvmacross

[UnqualifiedForumGuy]

35 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

This has been asked several times before.  There really are no available "hard" numbers when it comes to Macross.  The only figure ever really tossed around that actually came directly from former Takatoku/Bandai execs was the claim of 1M VF-1J units sold during the SDFM Era.

Shows my incompetence with seeking out older forum posts, even if admittedly it's a little harder to do. Thanks for this.

[Big s]

I don’t know specifics on sales numbers, but I always saw Gundam models in hobby shops and rarely Macross. Even at odd swap meets where you could find macross items, there was still more Gundam stuff and that was even before Gundam became a thing here in the U.S. Strangely it was easier to see things visually like video tapes from Macross, like Plus and 2, maybe the occasional videotape of the movie and Robotech Macross, but I feel as  the 90’s started even things like Americanized versions of Macross kits became a rarity. Merchandise like toys and models were definitely more Macross heavy in the mid 80’s to early 90’s while mid 90’s on seemed to be more and more Gundam items of various types 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, UnqualifiedForumGuy said:

Specifically I want to learn more about what Ollie meant in answer 5 and 6. I realize that it may be hard to find concrete figures, but I'm after the overall difference in scale and reception of the two franchises to help me understand why things turned out the way they did today.

TBH, a lot of the Reddit post in question feels like wishful thinking rather than anything grounded in fact.

#3 in particular feels a bit... overdramatic?  Harmony Gold's mismanagement of its own Robotech franchise had little real bearing on Macross until around 2001 when they filed for the trademarks they used to block Macross licensing in the west from 2001-2021.  Big West had basically a free hand to distribute Macross sequels outside Japan until that point, but the hairshirt budget and razor thin margins of most western anime distributors at the time meant that certain titles (Macross 7) were too expensive to obtain because of how much the music rights cost for such a heavily music-driven series.  Harmony Gold was only really able to interfere with Macross Zero, Macross Frontier, and Macross Delta... but it didn't exactly stop audiences from watching them (fansubs) or buying merchandise direct from Japan.  It did lead to Japanese home video releases having official English subs, though, starting from some of the Frontier re-releases.

The idea that Macross outpaced Gundam is a bit silly in general terms.  Gundam is the 800lb gorilla of the mecha genre and there are few properties out there that could match its brutal assembly line pacing in putting out new series, movies, and OVAs.  Lately, they're churning out multiple titles a year.  In comparison to Gundam's mass production of media, the Macross franchise is something more... artisinal?  It's the product of one weirdo and his mates who put out a new title maybe every five years or so.  That new title might just perform well enough to eclipse Gundam in the short term, but only in the short term.  It's the difference between a sprinter and a distance runner.  (It probably also helps a bit the occasional Macross series is usually a break from the formulaic tedium that Gundam has imposed on the genre as a whole.)

WRT Bandai and Takatoku in #5... that's not even accurate.  Bandai didn't acquire Takatoku Toys.  Due to a combination of circumstances including the loss of licenses from Toei and having sponsored several TV anime properties that didn't do well, Takatoku Toys declared bankrupty in 1984.  The company was dissolved during its bankruptcy proceedings and its remaining assets were divided up among its creditors.  Their Macross license was profitable, but it wasn't enough to stem the bleeding from the loss of Toei's licenses and the underperformance or outright failure of its Sasuraiger, Dorvack, Orguss, and Galvion lines.  At least one of the fabs they outsourced work to did end up being acquired by Bandai after it ended up in rough shape following the loss of Takatoku's contracts, but that's borderline unrelated.

[UnqualifiedForumGuy]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

WRT Bandai and Takatoku in #5... that's not even accurate.  Bandai didn't acquire Takatoku Toys.  Due to a combination of circumstances including the loss of licenses from Toei and having sponsored several TV anime properties that didn't do well, Takatoku Toys declared bankrupty in 1984.  The company was dissolved during its bankruptcy proceedings and its remaining assets were divided up among its creditors.  Their Macross license was profitable, but it wasn't enough to stem the bleeding from the loss of Toei's licenses and the underperformance or outright failure of its Sasuraiger, Dorvack, Orguss, and Galvion lines.  At least one of the fabs they outsourced work to did end up being acquired by Bandai after it ended up in rough shape following the loss of Takatoku's contracts, but that's borderline unrelated.

This was exactly the sort of clarification I was looking for. Even I knew his answer to that query was pretty sus and it didn't help that before now I was having a hard time learning about Takatoku to verify it myself. Thanks!

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, UnqualifiedForumGuy said:

This was exactly the sort of clarification I was looking for. Even I knew his answer to that query was pretty sus and it didn't help that before now I was having a hard time learning about Takatoku to verify it myself. Thanks!

Happy to help.

It seems likely that person assumed that Bandai had acquired Takatoku because Bandai ended up purchasing a number of Takatoku's molds when Takatoku's assets were divided up and liquidated by the courts to repay its creditors.

It's not to say Bandai was uninvolved... their wholly-owned subsidiary Popy was the company who successfully gained exclusive access to Toei's Kamen Rider license, depriving Takatoku of vital revenue in the years before its bankruptcy.

[Jeff J]

For what it's worth, back in 1998, I could walk around malls in the Philippines and buy a bunch of Macross model kits. That same year, I went to book stores in Korea and bought a bunch of Macross art books. I've been to both countries quite a few times in the past 5 years and I pretty don't see anything Macross, but Gundam stuff can be found everywhere.

[TehPW]

...Because nobody else has said it...

WELCOME.

 

(Please don't be like Brofessor... what-ever-the-F that mutant is.)

Seto, already said, Gundum is to Japan, like Barbie (maybe, Mickey Mouse, is a better example) is to the US. Anything else is generally a miracle in terms of merchandizing. What exactly is your interest in anime merchandizing? Is this a numbers thing or a Stock Market interest?

[Shawn]

I recall there was a promotion poster with some marketing numbers for merch numbers....these are as of Early 1984

Pull out your Google Translate Phone scan, or wait for Seto to chime in
but sure looks like 

1.2 million books
450k LPs records
130k Cassettes
70k record singles
800k 1/55 Toys
uhmm...24 MILLION model kits (Gundam was 30 million) LOL
(I think 1 million of those are sitting in Wise Guys's Warehouse right now)
https://www.macrossworld.com/gtc-legacy-project-part-1/

The side bar says 30 billion yen market? For Macross or all?

 

[Shawn]

This was the another article mentioning some Bandai 1/55 Strike Valk numbers...over 90k of these by end of 1984.

https://tamashiiweb.com/t_kokkaku/64/

 商品ラインナップ

－－年末までに9万個以上を出荷したというストライクバルキリーのヒットを受けて、ハイメタルシリーズは劇場版VF-1A(1985年1月)、スーパーオストリッチ(1985年4月)、エリントシーカー(1985年6月)と続いた。これらに共通するのは劇場版の商品であること、そしてタカトクトイス時代には発売されていなかった機体だったという点である。

Product lineup

-- Following the success of Strike Valkyrie, which shipped over 90,000 units by the end of the year, the High Metal series released the theatrical version of VF-1A (January 1985), Super Ostrich (April 1985), and Elint Seeker (1985). June). What they all have in common is that they are movie version products, and that they were aircraft that had not been released during the Takatoku Toys era.

 

https://tamashiiweb.com/t_kokkaku/65/

－－こうして、1982年11月にVF-1J(一条輝タイプ)が発売。同年の年末商戦で20万個以上を出荷して、一躍大ヒット商品へと成長した。その後、タカトクトイスの1/55バルキリーシリーズはVF-1S(1983年2月)、VF-1Jマックスタイプ(1983年4月)、VF-1Jミリアタイプ(1983年4月)、VF-1A(1983年7月)の全5種が発売。さらにアーマードバルキリー(1983年5月)、スーパーバルキリー(1984年2月)といったオプションパーツも商品化された。これら1/55バルキリーシリーズの出荷数は、1983年末の時点で合計100万個を突破している。なお、復座型のVF-1Dに関しては生産ラインが他の製品で一杯だったために、発売が見送られたという。

-Thus, the VF-1J (Ichijo Akira type) was released in November 1982. During the year-end sales season of the same year, more than 200,000 units were shipped, and it quickly became a huge hit. After that, Takatoku Toys' 1/55 Valkyrie series included VF-1S (February 1983), VF-1J Max Type (April 1983), VF-1J Milia Type (April 1983), and VF-1A (1983).  Furthermore, optional parts such as Armored Valkyrie (May 1983) and Super Valkyrie (February 1984) were commercialized. The total number of shipments of these 1/55 Valkyrie series exceeded 1 million units as of the end of 1983. It is said that the release of the VF-1D, which is a double-seating model, was postponed because the production line was full with other products.

[UnqualifiedForumGuy]

8 hours ago, TehPW said:

What exactly is your interest in anime merchandizing? Is this a numbers thing or a Stock Market interest?

It's more like I just want to get ahead of anyone who would "um akschually" me on Reddit or wherever else I'll be posting this draft blog thing so I needed to dive deeper enough that I actually learn the truth. Admittedly it's too much effort for "just a reddit post" but this time I wanna get my take right on the first try.

[azrael]

1 hour ago, Shawn said:

The side bar says 30 billion yen market? For Macross or all?

I'd wager all merchandising, given the context in the photo.

It would help with comparison to know Gundam merchandising numbers (and how much smaller Macross is compared to Gundam).
Gundam Franchise Earns Record Sales Topping 131 Billion Yen (May 2023) (for context, 131B Yen = ~$900 million in 2023)

Bandai Namco Quarterly Financial statements

@Seto Kaiba is correct. Even in the 1990s-2000s, whatever short-term gains Macross or any other popular anime of the time (Evangelion; for example), they would always be a tiny piece of the pie compared to Gundam. Always.

[pengbuzz]

44 minutes ago, azrael said:

I'd wager all merchandising, given the context in the photo.

It would help with comparison to know Gundam merchandising numbers (and how much smaller Macross is compared to Gundam).
Gundam Franchise Earns Record Sales Topping 131 Billion Yen (May 2023) (for context, 131B Yen = ~$900 million in 2023)

Bandai Namco Quarterly Financial statements

@Seto Kaiba is correct. Even in the 1990s-2000s, whatever short-term gains Macross or any other popular anime of the time (Evangelion; for example), they would always be a tiny piece of the pie compared to Gundam. Always.

Yeah...Gundam may as well be the mech mascott of Japan and of all mech anime as a whole.

[UnqualifiedForumGuy]

I know I was supposed to mail Parkes or seek him out here but the discussions from just this post is already enough to let me see more of the bigger picture. You guys are a lot of help. But I'll keep it open because I wanna have a constantly-updating reference that I can link back for the normies to read. Even as a non-journalist, this is hella nice.

Edited April 13 by UnqualifiedForumGuy