The Acolyte - Disney Plus Star Wars Series

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Big s said:

Reminds me of the time Obi chopped off a dudes hand to end a bar fight. He was skilled enough to deflect blaster shots, yet instead of slicing the blaster, he went for the mutilation move to show who the real badass was

In hindsight, he's kind of lost the plot as of A New Hope. 

Old Obi-Wan knows the Emperor, Darth Vader, and the head of the Imperial Security Bureau personally... and it's the down-on-their-luck population of Mos Eisley spaceport that he feels are the worst people in the galaxy?

Never mind that whole "grooming his best friend's son into his religion in order to set him on a quest to unknowingly slay his own father" thing.

IMO, the Jedi being more than a little out of touch with reality goes all the back to the start. 🤣

[Scyla]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In hindsight, he's kind of lost the plot as of A New Hope. 

Old Obi-Wan knows the Emperor, Darth Vader, and the head of the Imperial Security Bureau personally... and it's the down-on-their-luck population of Mos Eisley spaceport that he feels are the worst people in the galaxy?

Never mind that whole "grooming his best friend's son into his religion in order to set him on a quest to unknowingly slay his own father" thing.

IMO, the Jedi being more than a little out of touch with reality goes all the back to the start. 🤣

Given how the majority of Star Wars is pretty mediocre to bad overall.* I think George Lucas did the right thing in selling off the franchise.

Maybe the setting is good for three movies and falls apart when looking at it too closely.

*Yes there is KotoR, Clone Wars TV and Rogue One/Andor.

 

[Big s]

3 hours ago, Scyla said:

Given how the majority of Star Wars is pretty mediocre to bad overall.* I think George Lucas did the right thing in selling off the franchise.

Maybe the setting is good for three movies and falls apart when looking at it too closely.

*Yes there is KotoR, Clone Wars TV and Rogue One/Andor.

 

The setting isn’t the problem, it’s the reliance on old stuff that’s the issue. Set a story that isn’t attached to everything else and it wouldn’t have to wood about ruining established characters. There’s also the heavy reliance on the whole Jedi thing. But honestly, the true biggest problem is the lack of a good writing team. If things in the obi show were written well, it could’ve easily been a win, same with boba and Ahsoka and the sequels. They had the budget and decent actors and basic characters, just they all ended up kinda stupid projects. They all could have been far better without much effort. It’s the same story with everything Disney has been in charge with lately, marvel stuff could be so much better for all the same reasons, Willow could’ve been great as well.

[Scyla]

1 hour ago, Big s said:

The setting isn’t the problem, it’s the reliance on old stuff that’s the issue. Set a story that isn’t attached to everything else and it wouldn’t have to wood about ruining established characters. There’s also the heavy reliance on the whole Jedi thing. But honestly, the true biggest problem is the lack of a good writing team. If things in the obi show were written well, it could’ve easily been a win, same with boba and Ahsoka and the sequels. They had the budget and decent actors and basic characters, just they all ended up kinda stupid projects. They all could have been far better without much effort. It’s the same story with everything Disney has been in charge with lately, marvel stuff could be so much better for all the same reasons, Willow could’ve been great as well.

I agree with you that the bad writing (and bad planning) is also a problem especially in the sequel trilogy.

However, if Disney - after buying the rights to Star Wars for $4B and 12 years of trying - is not able to put out something halfway descent as their batting average the problem might not be the writers, directors or producers (because I‘m sure they tried out any possible combination).

Maybe something of the magic of Star Wars is lost forever to time. Maybe the sensibilities of the audience changed or when the movie making constraints of the OT are lifted you just make generic crap.

Maybe the whole creation of the OT was a happy accident that can’t be recreated. ANH was reportedly a mess before it was re-cut by George Luca‘s then wife and for some reason ESB turned out to be a cinematic masterpiece. And by ROTJ (which I love) you can already see a downturn in quality.

Only sometimes when all the stars align you create another happy accident.

 

[Big s]

1 hour ago, Scyla said:

I agree with you that the bad writing (and bad planning) is also a problem especially in the sequel trilogy.

However, if Disney - after buying the rights to Star Wars for $4B and 12 years of trying - is not able to put out something halfway descent as their batting average the problem might not be the writers, directors or producers (because I‘m sure they tried out any possible combination).

Maybe something of the magic of Star Wars is lost forever to time. Maybe the sensibilities of the audience changed or when the movie making constraints of the OT are lifted you just make generic crap.

Maybe the whole creation of the OT was a happy accident that can’t be recreated. ANH was reportedly a mess before it was re-cut by George Luca‘s then wife and for some reason ESB turned out to be a cinematic masterpiece. And by ROTJ (which I love) you can already see a downturn in quality.

Only sometimes when all the stars align you create another happy accident.

 

Don’t get me wrong, there’s something about being new that Star Wars will never have again, but that doesn’t mean a sequel has to be bad. Disney unfortunately is a very stubborn company and doesn’t have their heads in the game and keep making the same types of mistakes over and over again space opera, fantasy wise, or with super heroes. It’s always been the writing at the heart of the problem. It doesn’t matter the genre or setting if they can’t get better stories or in some cases stories that at least make sense, they will fail.

If the sequels at least felt coherent, they could’ve been far better. If Obi wasn’t a weird episode of Scooby Doo and trying to change history, people would have probably liked it. if the boba show just had boba not being such a loser, people might’ve liked it, that and getting rid of the Vespa gang. If Din didn’t need constant rescuing then people might’ve like Mando season three better. There’s also the uselessness of lightsabers that Disney introduced that is annoying fans. The moment a lightsaber duel starts the ending should either be a permanent handicap or death as a finality with a ghost really only showing up from the strongest of force users.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, Scyla said:

Given how the majority of Star Wars is pretty mediocre to bad overall.* I think George Lucas did the right thing in selling off the franchise.

Eh... I'm not sure there was necessarily a right thing for the franchise.

It was definitely the right thing for George Lucas, though.  He made a mint on that sale and by all reports is now the largest individual shareholder in the Walt Disney Corporation.

 

 

8 hours ago, Big s said:

The setting isn’t the problem, it’s the reliance on old stuff that’s the issue. Set a story that isn’t attached to everything else and it wouldn’t have to wood about ruining established characters. There’s also the heavy reliance on the whole Jedi thing.

The setting isn't the problem... it's one of the problems, plural.

The main reason the setting is a problem is, as you said, "the heavy reliance on the whole Jedi thing".

Despite there being at most ten thousand active Force users at a time in a galaxy said to have a population of ONE HUNDRED QUADRILLION - that's one Force user per 100 billion people or one Force user for every thirteen planets with a population the size of Earth's - the Force users still somehow manage to end up at the center of every noteworthy event throughout the franchise.

The writers clearly have no sense of scale, but at the same time having a high midichlorian count seems to come with nasty side effects like Main Character Syndrome and being locked into a rigid, self-enforced, and nuance-less Good vs. Evil dualistic morality system.  The setting limits Force users to one of two diametrically opposed moral positions: the noble and selfless hero or the cackling Saturday morning cartoon villain.  They can't deviate from either extreme without charting a course towards the opposite one.  If a user of the Light Side shows self-interest or "negative" but normal emotions they're on the fast track towards baby-eating and if a Dark Side user decides to Pet The Dog that can only be them charting a course towards redemption.

If makes so many Force users flat characters, and flat characters are boring.  The kids'll give 'em a pass because they're here for the exciting action set pieces but anyone older'll start to get frustrated with the lack of any real character development or variety if there's more than one in play.  That lack of character development drives simplistic stories that get boring and repetitive quickly.  The Acolyte is going to get hit with this HARD because it's a Jedi-centric story even more than the usual.

 

 

8 hours ago, Big s said:

But honestly, the true biggest problem is the lack of a good writing team. If things in the obi show were written well, it could’ve easily been a win, same with boba and Ahsoka and the sequels. They had the budget and decent actors and basic characters, just they all ended up kinda stupid projects. They all could have been far better without much effort. It’s the same story with everything Disney has been in charge with lately, marvel stuff could be so much better for all the same reasons, Willow could’ve been great as well.

Eh... in my opinion as an outsider/casual, the problem is not in the writing but in the concept being developed.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, The Book of Boba Fett, Ahsoka, Solo: a Star Wars Story, and now The Acolyte are all made with one clear focus: to pander to hardcore Star Wars fans.

Y'see, casual viewers do not give a damn about backstory dumps or what Minor Character A was doing before or after their limited role in the main movies.  That's material for the hardcore fans.  These were all stories that, from the perspective of general audiences, did not need to be told.  In many cases, telling those stories is counterproductive at best or simply a waste of time because the story has nothing to say and nothing meaningful to contribute to the setting.  They're doing it because they're desperate to find something the fans will accept after the underwhelming response to Solo, The Last Jedi, and The Rise of Skywalker.  It's the same reason The Mandalorian's getting a movie despite the story very definitely having ended at season three.

The writers can only do so much to make a series or movie watchable.  If their work is freighted with a list of Must Haves from the studio, the producers, the director, etc., then it's not always possible to make those additions to the narrative feel unforced or make the narrative flow smoothly.  Of course, if the direction is lacking or the actors are phoning it in then it doesn't matter how good or bad the script is.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... I'm not sure there was necessarily a right thing for the franchise.

It was definitely the right thing for George Lucas, though.  He made a mint on that sale and by all reports is now the largest individual shareholder in the Walt Disney Corporation.

 

 

The setting isn't the problem... it's one of the problems, plural.

The main reason the setting is a problem is, as you said, "the heavy reliance on the whole Jedi thing".

Despite there being at most ten thousand active Force users at a time in a galaxy said to have a population of ONE HUNDRED QUADRILLION - that's one Force user per 100 billion people or one Force user for every thirteen planets with a population the size of Earth's - the Force users still somehow manage to end up at the center of every noteworthy event throughout the franchise.

The writers clearly have no sense of scale, but at the same time having a high midichlorian count seems to come with nasty side effects like Main Character Syndrome and being locked into a rigid, self-enforced, and nuance-less Good vs. Evil dualistic morality system.  The setting limits Force users to one of two diametrically opposed moral positions: the noble and selfless hero or the cackling Saturday morning cartoon villain.  They can't deviate from either extreme without charting a course towards the opposite one.  If a user of the Light Side shows self-interest or "negative" but normal emotions they're on the fast track towards baby-eating and if a Dark Side user decides to Pet The Dog that can only be them charting a course towards redemption.

If makes so many Force users flat characters, and flat characters are boring.  The kids'll give 'em a pass because they're here for the exciting action set pieces but anyone older'll start to get frustrated with the lack of any real character development or variety if there's more than one in play.  That lack of character development drives simplistic stories that get boring and repetitive quickly.  The Acolyte is going to get hit with this HARD because it's a Jedi-centric story even more than the usual.

Eh... in my opinion as an outsider/casual, the problem is not in the writing but in the concept being developed.

Obi-Wan Kenobi, The Book of Boba Fett, Ahsoka, Solo: a Star Wars Story, and now The Acolyte are all made with one clear focus: to pander to hardcore Star Wars fans.

Y'see, casual viewers do not give a damn about backstory dumps or what Minor Character A was doing before or after their limited role in the main movies.  That's material for the hardcore fans.  These were all stories that, from the perspective of general audiences, did not need to be told.  In many cases, telling those stories is counterproductive at best or simply a waste of time because the story has nothing to say and nothing meaningful to contribute to the setting.  They're doing it because they're desperate to find something the fans will accept after the underwhelming response to Solo, The Last Jedi, and The Rise of Skywalker.  It's the same reason The Mandalorian's getting a movie despite the story very definitely having ended at season three.

The writers can only do so much to make a series or movie watchable.  If their work is freighted with a list of Must Haves from the studio, the producers, the director, etc., then it's not always possible to make those additions to the narrative feel unforced or make the narrative flow smoothly.  Of course, if the direction is lacking or the actors are phoning it in then it doesn't matter how good or bad the script is.

That's one problem I've always had with "the force"; Yoda said "Life creates it, makes it grow", yet as far as I know, life is life. It's more than humans or even sentient beings; it's animals, plants, etc. that are neither good nor evil but just are.

So I guess my point is: why would the Force be dichotimized to that degree (writer's notwithstanding)?

My take on it would be that the "Force" amplifies what is already there, and that power corrupts. If you're an a-hole, you're going to become an even bigger one if you don't watch it. Of course there is good and evil, but while emotions can lead to bad things, love shouldn't be a path to the dark side.

Just my two cents on this for what it's worth, Seto. I may be oversimplifying things or missing certain issues, so please take what I say with a block of salt and a belt sander. :p

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

That's one problem I've always had with "the force"; Yoda said "Life creates it, makes it grow", yet as far as I know, life is life. It's more than humans or even sentient beings; it's animals, plants, etc. that are neither good nor evil but just are.

So I guess my point is: why would the Force be dichotimized to that degree (writer's notwithstanding)?

IMO, the why of the Force's seemingly self-enforcing extreme moral dualism is less of an issue than the fact that it exists at all.

It's gotta be a nightmare to write for a setting where one of the main mechanics of the shared universe requires that the primary protagonist and antagonist factions inherently and actively gravitate towards the most extreme moral positions possible.  What's worse, this tendency is so consistent and so pronounced that the characters in story itself have gone beyond simply being aware of it to treating it as a truism.  The Inquisitors in Obi-Wan Kenobi present the aphorism "the Jedi hunt themselves" as a way of commenting on how the Jedi's inability to rein in their White Knight tendencies undermines their efforts to remain in hiding.

It doesn't give me great hope for the writing in The Acolyte, since the Jedi cast are going to by by default be "noble and selfless hero" types and the titular Acolyte is a member of what can only be described as a cartoonishly evil cult straight out of a past decade's moral panics.

(Then again, my pessimism may simply have been cranked into overdrive after starting The Clone Wars for the first time... I know it's old and it's a kid's show, but it shows that same extreme dualism at every turn.  Characters are either selfless noble heroes or the kind of over-the-top exaggerated caricature of villainy that brings back memories of the writing in Captain Planet.)

[Thom]

The Force itself is confusing enough. Is it a part of all life in and around everything, or is it tiny microbes in the body and the more you have the more you can manipulate?

There are also mentions of the Grays, those who walk the path in between, neither Good or Bad, but utilizing both in order to keep the Balance between them.

I'm on the side that the Force is merely an amplifier, not so much of a permanent tendency towards good or evil, but just in where one puts their attentions. Seek to be good and walk the path of the Light without deviating and the more 'good' you are, and the same with the Dark side. As anything, the more you 'feed' either, the deeper they become. Now yes, there have been notable instances where Jedi have flipped and come back again (Vader and Ben) but I think those are pivotal moments in inherently good people who had been led astray.

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, Thom said:

The Force itself is confusing enough. Is it a part of all life in and around everything, or is it tiny microbes in the body and the more you have the more you can manipulate?

Why not both?  My read of the whole "midichlorians" thing from back when it was introduced in The Phantom Menace was that it's basically another kind of mitochondria that taps into the Force to produce telekinesis and telepathy instead of tapping into oxygen to produce chemical energy.

Based on that, I kind of look at the Force as a less sh*tty version of the Warp from Warhammer 40,000.  It'd be there regardless of whether or not there were sentient beings who were capable of tapping into its power consciously or unconsciously, but because there is so much life in the galaxy contributing to it consciously or unconsciously even at very low levels it has taken on aspects of life and developed its own will.

If mitochondria are present in all cellular life in at least minute quantities the way mitochondria are present in all eukaryotic life, that would allow for both to be true.

 

13 hours ago, Thom said:

There are also mentions of the Grays, those who walk the path in between, neither Good or Bad, but utilizing both in order to keep the Balance between them.

I looked into this because it sounded like some writer's attempt to cheat the system that the movies had put into place... but the official position from TPTB is that they don't exist in the Disney canon.

[Thom]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Why not both?  My read of the whole "midichlorians" thing from back when it was introduced in The Phantom Menace was that it's basically another kind of mitochondria that taps into the Force to produce telekinesis and telepathy instead of tapping into oxygen to produce chemical energy.

Based on that, I kind of look at the Force as a less sh*tty version of the Warp from Warhammer 40,000.  It'd be there regardless of whether or not there were sentient beings who were capable of tapping into its power consciously or unconsciously, but because there is so much life in the galaxy contributing to it consciously or unconsciously even at very low levels it has taken on aspects of life and developed its own will.

If mitochondria are present in all cellular life in at least minute quantities the way mitochondria are present in all eukaryotic life, that would allow for both to be true.

My thing is, turning it into basically microbes in the body, something that can be sampled and measured rather than a mystical force pervading the universe, really takes away from the wonder of it. I mean, if you can take samples of it, can you then not take them all from one person and inject them into another? Perhaps a bioweapon could be made specifically to kill off midichlorians (sp?) thus ending the constant tug of war between the Jedi and the Sith. Or at least knocking out their godlike powers.

That little bit of dialogue dashed a lot of mysticism, at least for me. Which is why I was so glad that they did not mention them in the Rey Saga, when Maz basically reiterated Old Ben's original description.

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I looked into this because it sounded like some writer's attempt to cheat the system that the movies had put into place... but the official position from TPTB is that they don't exist in the Disney canon.

Ah, I thought I had heard mention of the Grays in relation to Ashoka, and they are on Wookiepedia. But then, like Wiki, take with a grain of Crait salt...

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Thom said:

My thing is, turning it into basically microbes in the body, something that can be sampled and measured rather than a mystical force pervading the universe, really takes away from the wonder of it.

Hrm... I dunno.  I feel like there's been a fair amount of evidence pointing to Force sensitivity not being entirely mystical from the start.

After all, Star Wars has always maintained that Force sensitivity is something you're born with.  It's innate mystical ability.  It's not something you can pick up through the power of faith (like theurgic magic/miracles), through diligent study of esoteric forces (wizardy), or by making a pact with a mystical entity (invocative magic).  It's not something a person can become... they either are one all along, or never will be one. 

Beyond that, one of the earliest details we learn about the Force in A New Hope is that talent/power in the Force can run in families... a detail later explicitly confirmed in Return of the Jedi.  If Force sensitivity can be passed on to one's offspring, it has to be a biologically-linked trait.  We know it can't have been nurture, because Anakin Skywalker didn't raise either of his children and neither had substantial contact with any other Force practitioner growing up.  

What really seems to have clinched the idea that ability in the Force was a biological trait was the 1991-1993 Thrawn trilogy - the only EU novel series I've ever read! - in which the Empire manages to successfully clone not one but two Jedi with their powers intact.  If you can grown a new person from a Force user's cell sample and that new person is also Force sensitive (never mind being exactly as powerful) then that means Force ability has to be a biologically-linked trait.  That's eight years before Phantom Menace.

 

2 hours ago, Thom said:

I mean, if you can take samples of it, can you then not take them all from one person and inject them into another? Perhaps a bioweapon could be made specifically to kill off midichlorians (sp?) thus ending the constant tug of war between the Jedi and the Sith. Or at least knocking out their godlike powers.

That seems to have been tried both pre- and post-Disney, with inconclusive results?

A little Google-fu pointed to a story where Palpatine tried to make General Grievous force sensitive with a blood transfusion from a Jedi master... the same schtick that our boy Moff Gideon tried in The Mandalorian season three.  It supposedly didn't work for Grievous, but we have no idea if it worked for Gideon's clones.

 

2 hours ago, Thom said:

That little bit of dialogue dashed a lot of mysticism, at least for me. Which is why I was so glad that they did not mention them in the Rey Saga, when Maz basically reiterated Old Ben's original description.

IMO, it actually makes a modicum of sense for there to be a measurable/quantifiable expression of Force potential.

Most science fantasy or science fiction titles where quasi-magical powers are a part of the setting at least handwave it as something that's been subjected to intense scientific scrutiny, and those where it's prominent often have some kind of in-universe system for measuring and quantifying a person's paranormal ability.  It'd actually be weird as hell if there wasn't something like that used by the Jedi Order, considering they were looking for vanishingly rare latent Force users in an unfathomably huge population.

Spoiler

In Macross, that potential was quantified as their peak Song Energy output in Chiba units.  Resonance effects are measured as the Nome coefficient.

In Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium has a twenty-four (actually twenty-six) point scale called The Assignment that's used for measuring and quantifying someone's psychic potential in terms of usable ability.

Star Trek has used four different terms: "aperception quotient", "esper rating", "Duke-Heidelberg quotient" and "psi-q" to refer to a system of measuring and scoring an individual's abilities with psionic discplines like telepathy and telekinesis.

Dragon Ball Z has those infamous (and bullsh*t) Power Levels...

Babylon-5 had the P-level assessments for psychics.

... and so on and so forth.  When you consider the level of technology available in the Star Wars galaxy and that the Jedi have supposedly had 25,000 years to study the origin of their powers, it'd be weird as hell if they didn't have some system for predicting or measuring a person's potential as a Force user after all that time or some idea of how all their fancy abilities actually worked. 

Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science. 😉

 

2 hours ago, Thom said:

Ah, I thought I had heard mention of the Grays in relation to Ashoka, and they are on Wookiepedia. But then, like Wiki, take with a grain of Crait salt...

So, I did a little more digging.  The bit about "grey" Jedi not being a thing comes from the franchise's executive setting coordinator Pablo Hidalgo.

Disney's official position on the Grey Jedi seems to be that they can't exist because the Dark Side's nature is inherently evil and corruptive.  You can't tap into it without ending up being influenced by it, so it's not something that can be used "in moderation".  It's more a slippery slope/"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" sort of thing.  Evil is not a toy, after all, and "evil in moderation" is still evil.

[jenius]

George Lucas got spooked after A New Hope when people started telling him that the idea of "the force" was so compelling it could become a religion. He then decided to undermine it with stuff that made it less and less compelling and/or inclusive before going full anime trope cliche with Anakin's "his magic score just hit 20K!" 

I just showed my kids The Phantom Menace last night.... OMG it's bad but the kids were mostly entertained and that was what George was going for. I just want to give them some primers so I can watch the animated Star Wars stuff with them. 

[Dynaman]

Everyone knows that they are putting more thought into The Force and exactly how it works then George ever has?  To misquote JMS The Force works at the speed of plot.

[Big s]

1 hour ago, Dynaman said:

Everyone knows that they are putting more thought into The Force and exactly how it works then George ever has?  To misquote JMS The Force works at the speed of plot.

This is probably the most true statement here. This is a guy that actually didn’t have a trench run scene in the original movie until a model maker screwed up and in the next film didn’t even know himself that Luke and Leia were siblings when they kissed. There’s always been a bit of last minute ideas thrown about and the whole midichlorian thing probably just popped into his mind after a doctors visit while mid film making because he forgot who trained Obi Wan and had already started filming scenes with Liam Neeson

[Thom]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Hrm... I dunno.  I feel like there's been a fair amount of evidence pointing to Force sensitivity not being entirely mystical from the start.

After all, Star Wars has always maintained that Force sensitivity is something you're born with.  It's innate mystical ability.  It's not something you can pick up through the power of faith (like theurgic magic/miracles), through diligent study of esoteric forces (wizardy), or by making a pact with a mystical entity (invocative magic).  It's not something a person can become... they either are one all along, or never will be one. 

Beyond that, one of the earliest details we learn about the Force in A New Hope is that talent/power in the Force can run in families... a detail later explicitly confirmed in Return of the Jedi.  If Force sensitivity can be passed on to one's offspring, it has to be a biologically-linked trait.  We know it can't have been nurture, because Anakin Skywalker didn't raise either of his children and neither had substantial contact with any other Force practitioner growing up.  

What really seems to have clinched the idea that ability in the Force was a biological trait was the 1991-1993 Thrawn trilogy - the only EU novel series I've ever read! - in which the Empire manages to successfully clone not one but two Jedi with their powers intact.  If you can grown a new person from a Force user's cell sample and that new person is also Force sensitive (never mind being exactly as powerful) then that means Force ability has to be a biologically-linked trait.  That's eight years before Phantom Menace.

 

That seems to have been tried both pre- and post-Disney, with inconclusive results?

A little Google-fu pointed to a story where Palpatine tried to make General Grievous force sensitive with a blood transfusion from a Jedi master... the same schtick that our boy Moff Gideon tried in The Mandalorian season three.  It supposedly didn't work for Grievous, but we have no idea if it worked for Gideon's clones.

 

IMO, it actually makes a modicum of sense for there to be a measurable/quantifiable expression of Force potential.

Most science fantasy or science fiction titles where quasi-magical powers are a part of the setting at least handwave it as something that's been subjected to intense scientific scrutiny, and those where it's prominent often have some kind of in-universe system for measuring and quantifying a person's paranormal ability.  It'd actually be weird as hell if there wasn't something like that used by the Jedi Order, considering they were looking for vanishingly rare latent Force users in an unfathomably huge population.

  Reveal hidden contents

In Macross, that potential was quantified as their peak Song Energy output in Chiba units.  Resonance effects are measured as the Nome coefficient.

In Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium has a twenty-four (actually twenty-six) point scale called The Assignment that's used for measuring and quantifying someone's psychic potential in terms of usable ability.

Star Trek has used four different terms: "aperception quotient", "esper rating", "Duke-Heidelberg quotient" and "psi-q" to refer to a system of measuring and scoring an individual's abilities with psionic discplines like telepathy and telekinesis.

Dragon Ball Z has those infamous (and bullsh*t) Power Levels...

Babylon-5 had the P-level assessments for psychics.

... and so on and so forth.  When you consider the level of technology available in the Star Wars galaxy and that the Jedi have supposedly had 25,000 years to study the origin of their powers, it'd be weird as hell if they didn't have some system for predicting or measuring a person's potential as a Force user after all that time or some idea of how all their fancy abilities actually worked. 

Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science. 😉

 

So, I did a little more digging.  The bit about "grey" Jedi not being a thing comes from the franchise's executive setting coordinator Pablo Hidalgo.

Disney's official position on the Grey Jedi seems to be that they can't exist because the Dark Side's nature is inherently evil and corruptive.  You can't tap into it without ending up being influenced by it, so it's not something that can be used "in moderation".  It's more a slippery slope/"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" sort of thing.  Evil is not a toy, after all, and "evil in moderation" is still evil.

In the first one, the Force was refereed to as a 'religion,' with Vader countering about 'lack of faith.' I think, in all the following movies, we see the 'ever shifting sands' of meaning, where in the first the Force was very simply referred to and didn't need any further explanation, other a choking demonstrations, for it to be believable. IMO, they should have kept it in that simple area of understanding. Obi-Wan's explanation was really as in-depth as they ever needed to get. Again, IMO, turning it into something really measurable, such as by a computer, lessened the impact of it. Which is a pit-fall of continuing stories past where they were first intended to end.

I just think making it something microbial was playing it too cute. Lucas should have left it as is rather than basically back-dating the whole idea.

As to the 'evilness' of the Dark Side, again there are two clear instances where dark force users made a break from it. With Vader, it was basically one act in defense of his son and he died before we could see if he would be struggling against the urge to go Dark again, whereas with Ben he very clearly made a clean break. To me that signifies that a person's choice, to be or not to be (evil) is still just a choice and that the slippery slope may either be just a perception or an outright pontification of fear. The Jedi would not want others to even dabble in it, so pushing the fear of it, "Don't turn to the Dark Side or you will lose your sou!" served their purpose of combating their ancient enemy, the Sith.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, jenius said:

George Lucas got spooked after A New Hope when people started telling him that the idea of "the force" was so compelling it could become a religion. He then decided to undermine it with stuff that made it less and less compelling and/or inclusive before going full anime trope cliche with Anakin's "his magic score just hit 20K!" 

Is there a source for that?  Legitimately curious here.

 

6 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Everyone knows that they are putting more thought into The Force and exactly how it works then George ever has?  To misquote JMS The Force works at the speed of plot.

Oh, absolutely... but lore is an additive process and people've been piling on for almost half a century. 

The Acolyte will shovel some more grist onto that mill, sure as sure.

 

5 hours ago, Thom said:

In the first one, the Force was refereed to as a 'religion,' with Vader countering about 'lack of faith.'

's probably worth considering that both of the people who refer to it as a "religion" did so while mocking it... it may not be literal.

(One of the two guys who calls it "religion" also calls Vader a sorcerer in the same statement, after all.)

 

5 hours ago, Thom said:

Again, IMO, turning it into something really measurable, such as by a computer, lessened the impact of it. Which is a pit-fall of continuing stories past where they were first intended to end.

I just think making it something microbial was playing it too cute. Lucas should have left it as is rather than basically back-dating the whole idea.

I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with the idea that it lessens the impact of the Force's role in the story.

That said, I do think it's a logical inclusion in the story.  Star Wars is science fantasy.  It exists at the intersection of the science fiction and fantasy genres.  Even in a pure fantasy setting, the existence of magic might get a handwave but there will still almost inevitably be people researching it (wizards) both to figure out how it works (what rules it follows) and how to apply it in new and different ways.  A scientifically and technologically advanced civilization like the one in Star Wars that discovers the existence of practical "magic" like the Force would absolutely study it extensively rather than handwaving it.  Not just out of scientific curiosity, but with an eye towards practical application.  The powers that Jedi have through the Force could have some pretty broad applications if you think about it even a little.

(Even if you're thinking strictly non-military, the Jedi's telekinesis via tapping into a limitless energy field continuously produced by all life opens the door to all kinds of nonsense like reactionless flight or even practical overunity machines.  Literal free energy.  The ability to convert thought into mechanical force is a scary prospect.)

 

5 hours ago, Thom said:

As to the 'evilness' of the Dark Side, again there are two clear instances where dark force users made a break from it. With Vader, it was basically one act in defense of his son and he died before we could see if he would be struggling against the urge to go Dark again, whereas with Ben he very clearly made a clean break.

Ben... also kinda died before we could see if he would have to struggle against his addiction to the Dark Side.

He doesn't seem to so much turn back to the light as just turn against someone more evil than himself, which is probably reflective of the original intent being for him not to be redeemed.

(Both he and Vader seem to be forgiven awfully easily for all the murder too... one deathbed confessional and they're both off the hook for genocide?)

[jenius]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Is there a source for that?  Legitimately curious here.

Are you looking for a source for the 'he decided to undermine it"? No, at that point it becomes my observation of how the force evolved over his films becoming less a spiritual power that could be tapped by true believers* and more a biological construct. I believe it was an interview with Spielberg where he says "I told George that The Force was so popular it could become a new religion!" but there are hundreds of similar things that were said. 

* Clearly there was more to it, even in A New Hope, but it's delightfully ambiguous. 

Edited May 28 by jenius

[Thom]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's probably worth considering that both of the people who refer to it as a "religion" did so while mocking it... it may not be literal.

(One of the two guys who calls it "religion" also calls Vader a sorcerer in the same statement, after all.)

Oh, undoubtedly. Mocking, sarcastic and derisive, but it was there. And let's not forget, the Jedi had 'temples' all over the galaxy, which also tends to the view of a religion.

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with the idea that it lessens the impact of the Force's role in the story.

That said, I do think it's a logical inclusion in the story.  Star Wars is science fantasy.  It exists at the intersection of the science fiction and fantasy genres.  Even in a pure fantasy setting, the existence of magic might get a handwave but there will still almost inevitably be people researching it (wizards) both to figure out how it works (what rules it follows) and how to apply it in new and different ways.  A scientifically and technologically advanced civilization like the one in Star Wars that discovers the existence of practical "magic" like the Force would absolutely study it extensively rather than handwaving it.  Not just out of scientific curiosity, but with an eye towards practical application.  The powers that Jedi have through the Force could have some pretty broad applications if you think about it even a little.

(Even if you're thinking strictly non-military, the Jedi's telekinesis via tapping into a limitless energy field continuously produced by all life opens the door to all kinds of nonsense like reactionless flight or even practical overunity machines.  Literal free energy.  The ability to convert thought into mechanical force is a scary prospect.)

I don't disagree that they would have looked for, and found ways, to measure and catalogue the Force, I just think that the decision to make that something they could do was a mistake. The Force was far better as a mystical mystery. Again, just IMO. I denounce midichlorins!

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ben... also kinda died before we could see if he would have to struggle against his addiction to the Dark Side.

He doesn't seem to so much turn back to the light as just turn against someone more evil than himself, which is probably reflective of the original intent being for him not to be redeemed.

(Both he and Vader seem to be forgiven awfully easily for all the murder too... one deathbed confessional and they're both off the hook for genocide?)

Yes, Ben did die as well, but he was able to make more choices and perform more chosen tasks than Vader had been able to after he killed the Emperor. Truly, all Ben had to do was stand back and let Palpatine kill Rey. He made the choice however to fight with her, and even as she had died while using all of her life force to attack Palpy, Ben still chose self sacrifice in order to bring her back. If he had still been bad/evil, all he had to do was look into her dying eyes and 'thank you,' then walk away as the most powerful player left standing. To me, that signified a significant break from the Dark Side.*

 

*A caveat being, of course, was Ben really a Sith, or just a fan-boi Ren? And what the heck is a Ren? Yet another thing to not like about the recent trilogy, the move away from historical nomenclature, such as Sith. They kept Jedi after all!

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28 by Thom

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Thom said:

Oh, undoubtedly. Mocking, sarcastic and derisive, but it was there. And let's not forget, the Jedi had 'temples' all over the galaxy, which also tends to the view of a religion.

They did?  We've only seen the one AFAIK. 

Mind you, "temple" can be used in a non-religious context and the Jedi don't seem to engage in anything resembling religious practices as far as we've seen in the movies and the TV shows.  Buddhism is often argued to be more a school of philosophical thought than a religion, but their congregation places are often referred to as "temples" in English.

 

1 hour ago, Thom said:

I don't disagree that they would have looked for, and found ways, to measure and catalogue the Force, I just think that the decision to make that something they could do was a mistake. The Force was far better as a mystical mystery. Again, just IMO. I denounce midichlorins!

Eh... IMO, it was inevitable Star Wars would have to introduce some kind of foolproof and objective test to identify latent Force users.

It made the most sense to introduce it in the prequel trilogy, when the Jedi Order was at the peak of its power.  Even with ten thousand Jedi, there just aren't enough of them to go touring Republic space (never mind the whole galaxy) looking for Force sensitive kids manually.  It's a pragmatic necessity given the sheer scale of the setting. Plus it was kind of necessary for The Phantom Menace's story to work at all.  Qui-Gon Jinn needed hard evidence that Anakin was The Chosen One™️, and a big showy demonstration of Force power would have required teaching him before he was allowed to join the Order and broken the flow of the story up to that point.

(Plus it would also raise the awkward question of what the Jedi do with the kids who they train enough to test and then DON'T let join the Order... unfortunate implications abound.)

 

1 hour ago, Thom said:

Yes, Ben did die as well, but he was able to make more choices and perform more chosen tasks than Vader had been able to after he killed the Emperor. Truly, all Ben had to do was stand back and let Palpatine kill Rey. He made the choice however to fight with her, and even as she had died while using all of her life force to attack Palpy, Ben still chose self sacrifice in order to bring her back. If he had still been bad/evil, all he had to do was look into her dying eyes and 'thank you,' then walk away as the most powerful player left standing. To me, that signified a significant break from the Dark Side.*

That's one of the reasons his redemption doesn't really track with his character development.

All he had to do was let Palpatine and Rey fight and kill the exhausted victor, and he would claim all the spoils... how much of his redemption was him and how much was him being influenced through the Force by Leia?  He definitely didn't seem put off by Palpatine's plan until very late in the game and he had zero reason to care about Rey beyond his attempts to turn her to the dark side.

 

1 hour ago, Thom said:

*A caveat being, of course, was Ben really a Sith, or just a fan-boi Ren? And what the heck is a Ren? Yet another thing to not like about the recent trilogy, the move away from historical nomenclature, such as Sith. They kept Jedi after all!

What even are the qualifications for being a Sith?  Does his apprenticeship under Snoke count?  What even was Snoke?  Is Kylo Ren some kinda Sith intern?  Maybe The Acolyte'll clear the Sith career path up a bit.

As much as I'd like to go for the low-hanging fruit and say that a Ren is the partner of a Stimpy... well... a wren is a bird, but I find Adam Driver looks far more like a whippet than a bird.  (Considering his heel-face turn at the last second, does that make Ben Solo "Whippet Good"?)

[Big s]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(Plus it would also raise the awkward question of what the Jedi do with the kids who they train enough to test and then DON'T let join the Order... unfortunate implications abound.)

They needed someone to clean the toilets. Sometimes it takes more than a bit of force to push a burrito special through for Yoda and someone’s gotta be there for the aftermath 

 

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

he had zero reason to care about Rey beyond his attempts to turn her to the dark side.

He wanted Bae Palpatine. She was the first girl he ever met that wasn’t built like a truck with a chrome bumper

[Thom]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They did?  We've only seen the one AFAIK. 

Mind you, "temple" can be used in a non-religious context and the Jedi don't seem to engage in anything resembling religious practices as far as we've seen in the movies and the TV shows.  Buddhism is often argued to be more a school of philosophical thought than a religion, but their congregation places are often referred to as "temples" in English.

There were apparently Jedi temples all over the place, according to EU, comics and books, and the follow-up trilogy with Luke having retreated to the very first Jedi Temple.

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... IMO, it was inevitable Star Wars would have to introduce some kind of foolproof and objective test to identify latent Force users.

It made the most sense to introduce it in the prequel trilogy, when the Jedi Order was at the peak of its power.  Even with ten thousand Jedi, there just aren't enough of them to go touring Republic space (never mind the whole galaxy) looking for Force sensitive kids manually.  It's a pragmatic necessity given the sheer scale of the setting. Plus it was kind of necessary for The Phantom Menace's story to work at all.  Qui-Gon Jinn needed hard evidence that Anakin was The Chosen One™️, and a big showy demonstration of Force power would have required teaching him before he was allowed to join the Order and broken the flow of the story up to that point.

(Plus it would also raise the awkward question of what the Jedi do with the kids who they train enough to test and then DON'T let join the Order... unfortunate implications abound.)

Sure they would, I'm just saying they probably shouldn't have depicted it, for stated reasons above.

As to the Phantom Menace, I think they should have gone with an older Anakin (and not just because for the whole May/December thing with Padme.) They should have had Qui-Gon meet an older, more rebellious Anakin who was already pushing at the extremes of his power, but the Phantom Menace is basically a kid's movie, so...

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's one of the reasons his redemption doesn't really track with his character development.

All he had to do was let Palpatine and Rey fight and kill the exhausted victor, and he would claim all the spoils... how much of his redemption was him and how much was him being influenced through the Force by Leia?  He definitely didn't seem put off by Palpatine's plan until very late in the game and he had zero reason to care about Rey beyond his attempts to turn her to the dark side.

I would assume that Leia's influence, powered a lot by her death, was momentary. And that influence, I think, was just the awareness of his mother dying. Recall, he had the chance to do it himself and even urged Rey to 'kill' her past, but he couldn't do it himself. I would have to suppose that he was recalling killing Han and realized, after the fact, that patricide really isn't all it is cracked up to be.

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What even are the qualifications for being a Sith?  Does his apprenticeship under Snoke count?  What even was Snoke?  Is Kylo Ren some kinda Sith intern?  Maybe The Acolyte'll clear the Sith career path up a bit.

I'll have to find the hand book. It's in the Dark Side of the closet.

[jvmacross]

 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, Big s said:

He wanted Bae Palpatine. She was the first girl he ever met that wasn’t built like a truck with a chrome bumper

Lies and slander.  The sequel trilogy was nothing if not an essay on how nobody wants Rey... not her parents, not the OT cast, not the Jedi Order, not her gramps... not even the audience. 😛

 

3 hours ago, Thom said:

There were apparently Jedi temples all over the place, according to EU, comics and books, and the follow-up trilogy with Luke having retreated to the very first Jedi Temple.

OK... kinda wondering how many were active concurrently, since a population of just 10,000 Jedi doesn't seem likely to be able to keep up a bunch of different temples across the galaxy unless they're very small ones.  The only one that ever seems to be shown or mentioned in the prequel era is the one on Coruscant.  It's seen in The Acolyte's trailers too, so presumably that's the one that's going to feature in the story.  

 

3 hours ago, Thom said:

As to the Phantom Menace, I think they should have gone with an older Anakin (and not just because for the whole May/December thing with Padme.) They should have had Qui-Gon meet an older, more rebellious Anakin who was already pushing at the extremes of his power, but the Phantom Menace is basically a kid's movie, so...

If you ask George Lucas, they're ALL kids movies. 🤔

(I have my doubts about Rogue One, but I can see the point for the others.  Then again, I'm barely into Clone Wars season two and there is some DARK sh*t there despite it being a kids show.  Was prequel-era Star Wars just on a mission to create some generational trauma or something?)

 

3 hours ago, Thom said:

Recall, he had the chance to do it himself and even urged Rey to 'kill' her past, but he couldn't do it himself.

Shakeups in the creative team are a pathway to many plot developments some consider to be... unnatural.

He was doing a great job with the "kill your past" thing until Rise of Skywalker forcibly course-corrected him.

 

3 hours ago, Thom said:

I would have to suppose that he was recalling killing Han and realized, after the fact, that patricide really isn't all it is cracked up to be.

Which is how you know he was an only child. 🤣

 

3 hours ago, Thom said:

I'll have to find the hand book. It's in the Dark Side of the closet.

Is it the Emperor's Hand-book?

 

Quote

[...][...]

It's great how little effort went into these.

Like, really.  Practically every Jedi character fits these descriptions.  Every Jedi Master is wise and respected and strong in the force.  You don't get to be a Jedi Master if you're not!  They're all skilled combatants who don't seek combat but are ready for it if it finds them because that's literally what they're all trained for.  The padawans are always studious and skilled greenhorns who look up to their masters because they're mostly child abductees who've been indoctrinated into the Jedi's belief system.

Seriously, enough of these stock characters.  I wanna see the Jedi Master who's a foolish and impulsive jerk that nobody respects and... oh bloody hell except for the "Master" part I'm describing Anakin aren't I?

With Star Trek: Discovery ending and Star Wars: the Acolyte starting soon after, I'm once again left to wonder what it is about Hollywood that feels compelled to write every black woman in a sci-fi show's main cast as mentally unbalanced and emotionally unstable because of a tragic past and a self-destructive desire for revenge?  Star Trek did it on three separate occasions in quick succession (Discovery's Michael Burnham, Picard's Raffaela Musiker, and Lower Decks's Beckett Mariner) and now Star Wars is doing it.  I just hope it doesn't come of as lowkey racist like those first two did.

Edited May 29 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

4 hours ago, Thom said:

There were apparently Jedi temples all over the place, according to EU, comics and books, and the follow-up trilogy with Luke having retreated to the very first Jedi Temple.

Yes indeed. And more than a few inactive and lost to the past. 

 

4 hours ago, Thom said:

I'll have to find the hand book. It's in the Dark Side of the closet.

 

2 hours ago, jvmacross said:

 

Where's the rogue smuggler? 

[Thom]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Lies and slander.  The sequel trilogy was nothing if not an essay on how nobody wants Rey... not her parents, not the OT cast, not the Jedi Order, not her gramps... not even the audience. 😛

I like her.

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If you ask George Lucas, they're ALL kids movies. 🤔

(I have my doubts about Rogue One, but I can see the point for the others.  Then again, I'm barely into Clone Wars season two and there is some DARK sh*t there despite it being a kids show.  Was prequel-era Star Wars just on a mission to create some generational trauma or something?)

Rogue One is definitely not a kid's movie! A similar approach could be said to have been done with the Harry Potter movies, as the first one is more for kids, and in that way serves as a good intro before they start getting old. I've only seen the Phantom Menace twice (if that) and it keeps getting worse every time I see it!

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's great how little effort went into these.

Like, really.  Practically every Jedi character fits these descriptions.  Every Jedi Master is wise and respected and strong in the force.  You don't get to be a Jedi Master if you're not!  They're all skilled combatants who don't seek combat but are ready for it if it finds them because that's literally what they're all trained for.  The padawans are always studious and skilled greenhorns who look up to their masters because they're mostly child abductees who've been indoctrinated into the Jedi's belief system.

Seriously, enough of these stock characters.  I wanna see the Jedi Master who's a foolish and impulsive jerk that nobody respects and... oh bloody hell except for the "Master" part I'm describing Anakin aren't I?

With Star Trek: Discovery ending and Star Wars: the Acolyte starting soon after, I'm once again left to wonder what it is about Hollywood that feels compelled to write every black woman in a sci-fi show's main cast as mentally unbalanced and emotionally unstable because of a tragic past and a self-destructive desire for revenge?  Star Trek did it on three separate occasions in quick succession (Discovery's Michael Burnham, Picard's Raffaela Musiker, and Lower Decks's Beckett Mariner) and now Star Wars is doing it.  I just hope it doesn't come of as lowkey racist like those first two did.

Those are more of what you'd put on the back of a toy box. Hopefully, they'll have far more depth than that!

Though that does remind me of Rebel Moon II and how the backstory of all the heroes is pretty much the same.

10 hours ago, Bolt said:

Where's the rogue smuggler? 

Great Granddaddy Han is sure to make an appearance!

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, Bolt said:

Where's the rogue smuggler? 

They have one... his name is Qimir, and he's played by Manny Jacinto.

He's the one who, in the trailer, talks about the Jedi justifying their domination of the galaxy as "peace".

 

 

1 hour ago, Thom said:

I've only seen the Phantom Menace twice (if that) and it keeps getting worse every time I see it!

Yeah, I've never been quite so glad that my local theater has a liquor license as I was for the day of the Phantom Menace theatrical re-release. 🤣

It's a much better (or less painful) movie after a few drinks.  Just don't drink every time Jar-Jar does something stupid, it's not worth the liver damage.

 

1 hour ago, Thom said:

Those are more of what you'd put on the back of a toy box. Hopefully, they'll have far more depth than that!

To be honest, I'm not expecting more depth than that.

One thing I've noticed increasingly often in my exploration of Star Wars beyond the movie trilogies is that Force users tend to be flat characters.

The Jedi Order's trademark emotional detachment tends to produce only three types of character: the Old Master, the Dutiful Apprentice, and the Paragon who Rebels.  The Old Master and Dutiful Apprentice character archetypes make up the overwhelming majority of Jedi characters and tend to have little personality and less emotional range because they dutifully maintain their emotional detachment at all times.  Their dogmatic adherance to the Jedi Order's rules and philosophy tends to make them into generic "noble and selfless hero" types.  The Paragon who Rebels is usually the Dutiful Apprentice (rarely the Old Master) but with feelings and opinions about things.  Usually it just means they're frustrated or angry about something like corruption (Dooku), complacency (Qui-Gon), not pandering to their ego (Anakin), or attempted homicide (Ben).

The Sith have a very similar dynamic, but with only two types of character: Chessmaster and Angry Boi.  Both types are card-carrying villains and professional sadists who feel compelled to demonstrate their sadism at every opportunity as though a moment not spent making some suffer and die is a moment wasted.  Chessmasters spend all of their time on or around elaborate thrones boasting about how everything is going according to their plans and what they have foreseen and threatening the Angry Bois with vague or non-specfic punishment should they fail in their orders.  The Angry Bois do all the actual villainous work, seething constantly with unfocused rage that's just waiting for a target.  They have no emotional range and practically no personality because mustache-twirling villainy is pretty much all they're actually good for in the story.  (Which makes it odd that so many are cleanshaven.)

The Acolyte's cast has offered us all three standard Jedi archetypes and the one Sith archetype so far... we have Old Masters Sol, Indara, and Kelnacca, Dutiful Apprentice Jecki, and Rebellious Paragon-turned-Angry Boi Mae.  None of that augurs well for them having more than the bare minimum amount of character development.  

 

1 hour ago, Thom said:

Though that does remind me of Rebel Moon II and how the backstory of all the heroes is pretty much the same.

Honestly, Rebel Moon was one typo away from being a zombie movie...

Instead of "grains", "brains"... because they won't STFU about grain.  You'd swear the movie was produced by the US Grains Council.

[Dynaman]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Their dogmatic adherance to the Jedi Order's rules and philosophy tends to make them into generic "noble and selfless hero" types.  The Paragon who Rebels is usually the Dutiful Apprentice (rarely the Old Master) but with feelings and opinions about things. 

One of the good parts of The Clone Wars TV series is that you got to see the more human side of Ben Kenobi.  He obviously has a thing for that senator lady but can't/won't let it go anywhere.  Jedi could be like Spock (in a good story/episode) but the writing rarely gets past the outside stoicism or when it tries it falls flat (like Luke in the sequel debacle)

 

Edited May 29 by Dynaman

[jenius]

Jedi can't love or have kids... But the force is hereditary. 

[Big s]

1 hour ago, jenius said:

Jedi can't love or have kids... But the force is hereditary. 

That’s The dark secret of the Jedi. They steal Sith children, and that’s what started their eternal rivalry. Sith weren’t necessarily the dark side, just the side that had a good time and the Jedi were too judgy and thought they weren’t raising their kids right. The Jedi always thought the Sith listened to music way too loud and kept calling the police until they became the police and broke up the parties. They used to fight with pool noodles and light sticks, but things escalated quickly 

[Seto Kaiba]

15 hours ago, Dynaman said:

One of the good parts of The Clone Wars TV series is that you got to see the more human side of Ben Kenobi.  He obviously has a thing for that senator lady but can't/won't let it go anywhere.  Jedi could be like Spock (in a good story/episode) but the writing rarely gets past the outside stoicism or when it tries it falls flat (like Luke in the sequel debacle)

I must not have gotten to that part yet.  

So far, all I've really seen from the Jedi in The Clone Wars is casual danger dialogue, snark, and a lot of hypocrisy from Anakin.

But yeah, the Jedi seem to have only two visible moods most of the time: "Stoic" and "Dull surprise".  I foresee an awful lot of Jedi gazing into the middle distance like they're trying to remember if they left the kettle on in their apartment in The Acolyte.

 

14 hours ago, jenius said:

Jedi can't love or have kids... But the force is hereditary. 

So the Force is passed on through one night stands?

I wonder how many languages in the galaxy have "Jedi" as the word for "deadbeat dad".

[Big s]

23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So the Force is passed on through one night stands?

Jedi aren’t even allowed to do that. Most people would probably turn to the dark side because of that, and the no party rules

[Dynaman]

10 hours ago, Big s said:

Jedi aren’t even allowed to do that. Most people would probably turn to the dark side because of that, and the no party rules

Not really - just no emotional attachments.  A playboy (or girl) Jedi going from one one night stand to another is perfectly fine.

[jenius]

I don't know... Lots of questions about agency when someone can wave a hand and say "this is Jedi you've been looking for."

[Seto Kaiba]

29 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Not really - just no emotional attachments.  A playboy (or girl) Jedi going from one one night stand to another is perfectly fine.

Imagine my amusement that this was apparently a topic George Lucas felt merited his attention and an official response.

"Word of God" from George is that you're right, they get fool around just in a commitment-free manner. 🤣  

No wonder so many Force users are messed up.