Post Skywalker Saga Star Wars Movies and Projects

[electric indigo]

You have to admit that recycling ideas from other genres (and even other SF stories) is the DNA of Star Wars from the very beginning.

[Dynaman]

12 hours ago, Mommar said:

You have a very poor imagination then.

Better written sources for that for me.  If it is Star Wars I want the visuals.

[Chronocidal]

8 hours ago, electric indigo said:

You have to admit that recycling ideas from other genres (and even other SF stories) is the DNA of Star Wars from the very beginning.

Recycling ideas is not in itself a problem, but the recent regurgitation of intellectual property is more akin to recycling old Star Wars paperbacks to produce toilet paper.  Actually, scratch that, I don't want that material anywhere near that close to my backside.  

I think one of the things that bugged me the most personally over the past few years was just how lazy the copying got.  I get it, the EU was dense, and full of fanon from over forty years' worth of fan speculation, extrapolation, and innovation.  But Disney explicitly proclaimed that all of that didn't matter... and then immediately backtracked on that, and started cherry-picking bits and pieces that they decided they either liked enough to keep, or were just too lazy to take the time to invent something new.

I'm going to refer to one specific instance here as an example, and it's very minor, but I think it makes a good case study.

The new X-Wings in the sequel trilogy are labeled in official material as "Incom-FreiTek T-70" fighters.  Incom was the company listed in old OT material, from what I recall, and carried over to the EU.  FreiTek?  That's entirely from the EU, the Dark Empire comic series specifically, if I remember correctly.  They manufactured the newer E-Wing fighters meant to replace the X-Wings (which I really wish we had seen, instead of them literally making tweaked copies of every OT ship based on OT concept art).

So... why did they use that name?  Why pick up just the name, instead of using the actual E-Wings in the sequel trilogy?

Think about what that name "FreiTek" represents.  Beyond just the name, consider all the things associated with it.  In the EU, FreiTek had a defined history, founded by the design team that defected to the Alliance before ANH, along with the early X-Wings.  The company and people involved had backstories.  I haven't read the Dark Empire comics, but I believe there was a fair bit of story involving the development process of the E-Wing, and working out bugs in the design, if the material I can find about the E-Wing is anything to go by.

So, why did Disney appropriate that company name for the new X-Wings?  Because it gave them a world-building shortcut.  By referencing a name, they saved themselves all the trouble of developing something original and having to tell about it.  Whether they explicitly told the history of that company or not, just hearing that familiar name would basically be dangling a bell in front of EU fans, hoping they would latch onto that reference (even if only subconsciously), and let it do their world-building for them.

Again, this is a super minor case, with a stupidly tiny background detail, but it makes a good example of the lack of world-building for the new movies.  They just did not want to try and do that work themselves, so they took referential shortcuts like this all over the place.  Even though the company that made a ship is an absolutely minuscule background detail, by using a name that fans of the EU would recognize, they could try and hijack a backstory that they didn't have to write themselves.

Now, before anyone goes off on this being a huge wall of text over a tiny background detail, yes, it is a massive diatribe on a tiny detail that most people would never care about.  I'm fully aware of how nit-picky this is, and how little these details mean in the grand scheme of the movies.

I honestly don't know a good way for Disney to approach this.  At least with this New Old High Republic setting, they'll have to do all of their own world-building, because the time-frame is so far removed from both the Old Republic, and the OT/Prequels.  I'll be interested to see how well they manage, but I still expect them to pull from as many existing sources as they can, including the EU.

[Bolt]

If they pull from the EU and KOTOR. That would at least help with continuity and be familiar territory (world building) for older fans. I personally don't want most of what's come before to be wiped from a galaxy far, far away..

[Chronocidal]

32 minutes ago, Bolt said:

If they pull from the EU and KOTOR. That would at least help with continuity and be familiar territory (world building) for older fans. I personally don't want most of what's come before to be wiped from a galaxy far, far away..

See, I would agree, if they agreed to keep it coherent.. but they don't seem to intend that at all.  The EU itself wasn't always great, and I'm not going to pretend it was all a single contiguous story, but a fair bit of the EU I enjoyed came from a limited number of authors who collaborated to keep their characters and stories consistent.  Having everyone existing on the same page from the start would be a huge step in the right direction.

I don't want to see bits and pieces of the EU scattered about whatever new monstrosity they build of it, and I don't want them using existing concepts to shortcut building something else that can stand on its own.  I just want someone to actually take into account writing a decent story, and making that the main focus, because without that you get... well, what we've had for the last six years now.

[Mog]

The biggest problem with the Sequel Trilogy is that they practically backstoried everything.

Very little was actually discussed or shown in the films themselves.

Why is there even a First Order?  Read the books.

When the hell did Palpatine have children?  No clue.  Because the films don’t consider it important enough to go over.

As far as what comes next, it really comes down to how Disney’s creative will respect the source material.

Best case scenario is Dave Filoni bringing in Thrawn earlier into the Rebels timeline, but totally nailing Thrawn’s mastermind tactician aspects.

Worst case scenario is you get Joel Schumacher’s Batman films going for lowest common denominator and totally missing what made Two-Face and Mr. Freeze compelling villains.

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, Mog said:

Worst case scenario is you get Joel Schumacher’s Batman films going for lowest common denominator and totally missing what made Two-Face and Mr. Freeze compelling villains.

But how will they sculpt nipples into the Jedi robes?

[Mog]

They’ll find a way;  much like life, they’ll find a way.

BTW, talking about that video, I already know what a Jedi in those good ol’ days would fear the most:

* Falling to the Dark side;

* Falling in love; and 

* People dying as a result of his/her/its actions.

. . . So, how would that be different from any other Star Wars Jedi-centered story? 

[Seto Kaiba]

35 minutes ago, Mog said:

. . . So, how would that be different from any other Star Wars Jedi-centered story? 

There'll be a lot more of them?

[Chronocidal]

Here's a wacky idea.  Setup the situation that enabled Palpatine to rise to power in the first place.

I don't expect them to really play with this, but it would be interesting to see them explore exactly why the jedi order became so restrictive by the time of the prequels.

[Mommar]

33 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Here's a wacky idea.  Setup the situation that enabled Palpatine to rise to power in the first place.

I don't expect them to really play with this, but it would be interesting to see them explore exactly why the jedi order became so restrictive by the time of the prequels.

There’s nobody at LucasFilm talented enough to write something that interesting.

[Seto Kaiba]

18 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Here's a wacky idea.  Setup the situation that enabled Palpatine to rise to power in the first place.

I don't expect them to really play with this, but it would be interesting to see them explore exactly why the jedi order became so restrictive by the time of the prequels.

Wouldn't that just basically be a repeat of the Prequel Trilogy that doesn't end in mass Jedi-cide?

(That's a serious question.  I'm not trying to be a smartarse, I just don't know much about Star Wars lore.)

Edited February 28, 2020 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

The 420 Republic will be before Palpatine.

As was indicated, they're gonna try to throw new stories and new jedi (and villans) at us. One thing mentioned was jedi patrolling the outer edge of republic space , outer rim style. And portraying those jedi as sort of Wild west marshals keeping the peace. They also mentioned some big bad something wicked this way comes villan showing up eventually.

[Focslain]

19 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Here's a wacky idea.  Setup the situation that enabled Palpatine to rise to power in the first place.

I don't expect them to really play with this, but it would be interesting to see them explore exactly why the jedi order became so restrictive by the time of the prequels.

These are two different things.

Palpatine's political rise to power was the b-plot of the prequels. 

As for how the Jedi go to where they were as an organization by the time of the prequels is something from waaaaay back, like pre-Republic old. 

Wouldn't mind a Tales of the Jedi series, especially to see a fight with proto-lightsabers.

[Mog]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

The 420 Republic will be before Palpatine.

As was indicated, they're gonna try to throw new stories and new jedi (and villans) at us. One thing mentioned was jedi patrolling the outer edge of republic space , outer rim style. And portraying those jedi as sort of Wild west marshals keeping the peace. They also mentioned some big bad something wicked this way comes villan showing up eventually.

I think my questions still stand:  the fears these Jedi will face are the same ones we’ve seen in the past (in films, shows, books, and comics).

About the only new wrinkle/“fear” you can add is the fear of these Wild West Jedi marshals losing their autonomy.

I can see some Outer Rim Jedi (trying to keep the peace) getting annoyed with a stuffy Jedi Council, sitting in its ivory temple and trying to impose its impractical or downright clueless policies and requirements.

Basically, trying to get the job done versus  making sure you’re in compliance with the Jedi-equivalent of an Office Space TPS report.

[Chronocidal]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Wouldn't that just basically be a repeat of the Prequel Trilogy that doesn't end in mass Jedi-cide?

(That's a serious question.  I'm not trying to be a smartarse, I just don't know much about Star Wars lore.)

Not so much that, I'm more thinking in terms of why the Jedi Order became so blind.  Less about the details of Palpatine's rise, and more about the Jedi becoming overly confident in themselves, fixed in their traditions.

That can overlap with the way they were portrayed in a monk-like society by the time the prequels hit.  Just theoretically speaking, what if the era we see is one where Jedi are not quite so restricted?  Intermarrying, raising force-sensitive families, and reaching a point where they could almost be considered a type of nobility, rather than servants.  Any organization lasting thousands of years is bound to have cycles of growth and recession, and there had to be periods where traditions were questioned, and reformed.

Maybe we start at a point where the Jedi Order has grown influential in the Republic, and begins to press that for advantages of some sort.  They absolutely referenced "houses" on the idea board, and having a bunch of Jedi families pushing for influence could be an interesting premise, if done well.  Big caveat there, of course, and I don't want us having another Game of Thrones, but if you played on the idea of different factions and schools of thought within the Jedi, you could open up a lot of setup for exactly why the Jedi behaved as they did in the prequels.

There's a lot of room to play with it, if they stick to what works, and don't get too agenda-driven.  I think we could have a genuinely interesting drama between disparate Jedi factions fighting over policy in the midst of a larger conflict, or threat of one.  The end goal would be establishing the Jedi Order policy as seen in the prequels, which led to Palpatine.

Hell, if they want to take the easy route, just go back and establish where the "chosen one" prophecy came from.  You have thousands of years to play with, and the Sith certainly seem to like playing the long game, so play up the long-term setup.  Have a Sith agent manipulate the Jedi to implement the "no families" rule with the explicit intent to setup the fall of Anakin several hundred years later.  We know certain races live that long, so it's entirely possible Plagueis takes Sideous under his tutelage during this era, or maybe we see Plagueis slay his own master and begin setting up things for his apprentice.

We're talking about heroes and villains that have a distinct ability to see into the past and future.  Just play with that in an interesting way.

 

[Bolt]

2 hours ago, Mog said:

I can see some Outer Rim Jedi (trying to keep the peace) getting annoyed with a stuffy Jedi Council, sitting in its ivory temple and trying to impose its impractical or downright clueless policies and requirements.

That was Qui-Gon Jinn's issue with the counsel of masters. 

 

1 hour ago, Chronocidal said:

Not so much that, I'm more thinking in terms of why the Jedi Order became so blind.  Less about the details of Palpatine's rise, and more about the Jedi becoming overly confident in themselves, fixed in their traditions.

By the time of KOTOR, which takes place way before the 420 Republic, the Jedi (and the Sith) were adopting  traditions  that would last until order 66. As well, it could be argued, as dogmatic and arrogant trains of thought. 

1 hour ago, Chronocidal said:

They absolutely referenced "houses" on the idea board, and having a bunch of Jedi families pushing for influence could be an interesting premise, if done well.

I'll be rooting for House Harkonenn but seriously, that could be an interesting premise. As well as your thoughts on all this leading to how the Jedi order may have ultimately been set up by the time of TPM. 

 

1 hour ago, Chronocidal said:

Hell, if they want to take the easy route, just go back and establish where the "chosen one" prophecy came from. 

Something tells me we're gonna have to hear about it. Let me guess , the Prophecy really came from a darkside user..

 

[Mog]

Wanna really piss off the KOTOR sect, tell ‘em Revan came up with the chosen one prophecy! 

Now excuse me, as I kick myself for throwing that Pandora’s box dumb idea out there.

[Bolt]

Don't mess with Revan!!

[Dynaman]

I heard the chosen one prophecy started with a viewing of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[Chronocidal]

On 2/28/2020 at 3:45 PM, Bolt said:

By the time of KOTOR, which takes place way before the 420 Republic, the Jedi (and the Sith) were adopting  traditions  that would last until order 66. As well, it could be argued, as dogmatic and arrogant trains of thought. 

Do we actually know they did last until Order 66 though?  What if the traditions in KOTOR eventually faded into something less structured, but this new series explores a re-awakening of those schools of thought?

A thousand generations is a long time.  Not to get too deeply into any religious allegory, but think of how many major changes in establishment and policy an organization like the Roman Catholic Church has gone through in just one millennium.  The Jedi Order could easily have mutated from a ruling class to a peacekeeping force and back again multiple times in that period of time.

[peter]

On 2/25/2020 at 4:15 PM, renegadeleader1 said:

Here's the offical announcement trailer they put out. If you want to know why you have a bad feeling about this just pause it at the 1:23 mark and read what the idiots in the Star Wars Story Group have brainstormed for this.

 

 

Looks like a dumpster fire

 

[Thom]

I'm surprised with people dumping on it so early. It is literally just the start, before any sanding or polishing is done. You almost literally throw ideas onto the wall and see what sticks. Nothing is ever perfect right from the start, nor should it be expected to be so. Give them time to even make something before we start telling them it's garbage.

[derex3592]

I'm sure there were some pretty horrific brain storming sessions for The Mandalorian as well early on. Look what we got though. I'll choose to stay positive this far out. 

[Chronocidal]

41 minutes ago, Thom said:

I'm surprised with people dumping on it so early. It is literally just the start, before any sanding or polishing is done. You almost literally throw ideas onto the wall and see what sticks. Nothing is ever perfect right from the start, nor should it be expected to be so. Give them time to even make something before we start telling them it's garbage.

I think people are fully aware of that, but the brainstorming board is also a good indicator of the writing team's priorities (or lack thereof).

The fact that "actual ending" falls below "diversity" (which is on there twice even), "dinosaurs" got billing above the Sith, and the first entry under "Star Wars" is "Not pro-war" says a great deal about the thought processes currently involved in the planning for this series.

Right at this point, I think a great number of fans have lost all faith in the direction the franchise is going, and want to head off any more massive mistakes before they build any momentum.  The earlier a lookout raises the alarm, the easier it is to steer around the icebergs.

[peter]

Yay, Star Peace where no one dies, everything is rainbows, no snowflake's feelings will be hurt, and Porkins identifies as a skinny dude.

 

[peter]

 

[peter]

[Mog]

There’s a billion things annoying about that birthing scene.

But I wouldn’t have minded if Leia was born first.  

It’d still be a stretch, but at least Leia’s “memories of mom” speech in ROTJ would have made more sense (latent Force ability in baby, more time with Momma Padme than Luke, etc.).

Regarding that brainstorm board, I’d be the a-hole that would erase a chunk of the board and write “FOLLOW KOTOR’S LEAD/EXAMPLE!!”

[Bolt]

7 hours ago, Thom said:

I'm surprised with people dumping on it so early. It is literally just the start, before any sanding or polishing is done. You almost literally throw ideas onto the wall and see what sticks. Nothing is ever perfect right from the start, nor should it be expected to be so. Give them time to even make something before we start telling them it's garbage.

As i said about a week ago. Something is going to be worthy.

 

7 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

I think people are fully aware of that, but the brainstorming board is also a good indicator of the writing team's priorities (or lack thereof).

Yup

 

7 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Right at this point, I think a great number of fans have lost all faith in the direction the franchise is going,

Yup, yup. I'll be combing thru all the new , forthcoming content as it comes. And i will praise the high points. And bemoan the low. 

So here's to a long time ago. In a galaxy far, far away..

[kalvasflam]

You know, reading that board makes me want to watch Bayverse transformers. 

May be they will have a diplomatic solution for once, like how the real world works.  Where the Sith and the Jedi gets together and hug it out. 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by kalvasflam

[Mommar]

4 hours ago, Mog said:

It’d still be a stretch, but at least Leia’s “memories of mom” speech in ROTJ would have made more sense (latent Force ability in baby, more time with Momma Padme than Luke, etc.).

She was talking about Breha Organa.  That line was just before the Brother/Sister revelation when she still thought Breha was her Mother.

[renegadeleader1]

6 minutes ago, Mommar said:

She was talking about Breha Organa.  That line was just before the Brother/Sister revelation when she still thought Breha was her Mother.

Luke asks her "Do you remember your mother, your REAL mother?"

[Dynaman]

correct - It was not the adoptive mom she was talking about remembering.

My problem from the brief skimming of the upcoming stories is that is sounds like they are not going to enforce continuity.  That was the biggest problem with the sequels and they should have learned a lesson.

[Thom]

19 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

I think people are fully aware of that, but the brainstorming board is also a good indicator of the writing team's priorities (or lack thereof).

The fact that "actual ending" falls below "diversity" (which is on there twice even), "dinosaurs" got billing above the Sith, and the first entry under "Star Wars" is "Not pro-war" says a great deal about the thought processes currently involved in the planning for this series.

Right at this point, I think a great number of fans have lost all faith in the direction the franchise is going, and want to head off any more massive mistakes before they build any momentum.  The earlier a lookout raises the alarm, the easier it is to steer around the icebergs.

Good points, but when they start numbering the ideas in order of importance rather than what was more likely just being called out and written up on the fly, then I'd start to be worried.