BattleStar Galactica

[kalvasflam]

The problem is always the same, they simply don't look at the Cylons as human beings, which is absolutely true. People are reading a little too much into this prison stuff, there is a real distinction between Cain authorizing stuff like this with full knowledge and what happened in Iraq.

As for humiliating and brutalizing the enemy, ok, they just wiped out the entire colonies, a little humiliation and terror wouldn't matter from the human prespective. Doesn't balance the scales, and really, it's a machine. The only thing that I would be concerned with is the fact that the discipline of the troops may be affected by things like this. As pointed out, you have women in that crew. You do things like that enough, you don't have a coherent military force, you have a mob. And mob stops being effective, and you could always have a psycho on the ship who thinks, well, if it's ok with a humaniod looking cylon, why not just a regular human.

The fact of the matter is, Galactica crew is too close to Boomer. I don't think they need to brutalize this Boomer, but they have to have an intelligent way to use her. Adama and company seem to get results, the other guys haven't had any yet. It's all about effectiveness and return on investment. Bottom line, if I thought brutalizing my enemy in the worst possible will not adversely affect my troops, my overall situation, and will help me gain victory, I'm going to brutalize away.

[Major Johnathan]

  For the Pegasus crew to treat it so comically and easily is simply barbaric and pure cruelty.  The pegusus guys in the fliught deck's "bar" was pricks because they made those comments in front of the two guys boomer is close with, with no regard for anyone on the Galctica.  Once you start applying exuses like that to justify cruel and wrong acts, it's easier to condone other acts of cruelty.  They did all that to Six specifically so she could suffer, and they could find some kind of amuzement out of her suffering.  It's just wrong, and unacceptable in any curcumstance.  The fact that six is different allowed them to brutalize her, and the wrongness of that seems to be the key message.  After hering thos guys joke about Boomer, I wouldn't trust any of them around Callie or any other female.  It's just one more step after where they're at to rape an actual person.

If they were so alone and so disheartened being the only ship left and only had fighting cylons left as the only thing they had to hold on to, you would think they would be ecstatic to find the galactica fleet.  They should have been embracing them, even if slowly, but intstead of that they are being a giant pack of jackasses from the start, and quickly making the Galactica people wish they never came.

331491[/snapback]

It's not that what Pegasus' crew and Cain did was wrong, it obviously was. I think it's cheap to write Cain and the crew into total villianous criminals. That's my gripe, it's just not realsitic, the whole gang rape crap was a Hentai plot pulled out of the gutter.

Cain, especially being a woman, could not expect to control her crew if she allowed them to have 'fun' with female prisoners like that. (yes, they're machines, but for all practical purposes, they're human.) Nor would she within hours attempt to summarily execute two actual human crew members.

It's all just a writing gimmick to make Adama and Roslin look heroic and noble. (they're trying to shore up the character mess they wrote for season 2 by making Pegasus ultra evil, thus making the wacky antics of Apollo and Starbuck look like child's play.) So in my eyes, they wasted the whole Pegasus storyline and it's not like they'll run into another Battlestar after Pegasus.

[Duke Togo]

Well, they are obviously setting up Cain and the Pegasus for a big redemtion scene. Let's hope they get one thing right with this, and leave it open ended as to the fate of the Pegasus afterwords.

[LePoseur]

Too close to Galatica's Boomer? Yeah, I think so. In fact, I'm surprised no one here (of all places) has drawn the parallel to Macross that Galatica runs.

No one really balks about how fast Miria was adopted into the fleet. Now sure she didn’t fire a couple rounds into Global, but then again neither did the Sharon they have in their cell.

Now we have a wayward battleship that kind of cuts its own path just to survive while trying to take care of most of what’s left of humanity. The enemy has enough power to wipe them out, but for the most part is just toying with them, as it is rather obvious that the remaining humans have something that they want.

I think, as I have since the since the end of last season with the trip to the opera house, that we are in for another telling of how human emotions, specifically love, can help overcome seemingly impassable barriers and end a war by eventually bringing the two sides together.

That’s not to say that there won’t be those on both sides that can’t deal with that and go the other way, as just like Macross, I expect the traditional “ridged†military (currently played by the Pegasus rather than Macross’ United Earth Government forces) to not be able to understand this new path, just as the non-enlightened Cylons will play their part just like the Bodoza fleet.

Not that I think they’ll end the series with a Minmay song of anything, but I can’t be the only one seeing these parallels, can I?

**Crickets chirping**

Edited September 26, 2005 by LePoseur

[Major Johnathan]

It would be one hell of a redemption for pegasus. I'm sure Cain and the Pegasus are doomed to a violent end, most likely from the Cylons. I don't see how they just gloss over approved gang rape and the attempted execution of two Galactica crewmen. Then again, Adama just shrugged his shoulders and forgave a coup by Roslin, Apollo and Starbuck...

LePoseur; I do see the similarities between BSG and Macross, but the Millia/Miria comparison to Boomer doesn't work to me. The problem is Galactica Boomer was everyone's buddy, they trusted her 100%, she delivered a nuke to a Basestar and blew up a hell of a lot of fellow Cylons, THEN whipped a pistol and blasted Adama.

Miria simply switched sides and never threatened humans again. So Caprica Boomer could NEVER be realistically trusted. No matter how many times she helps Galactica out, no matter how cute her baby will be, she simply could never be trusted again. She's the perpetual Manchurian Candidate. (as are all human Cylons)

Edited September 26, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[EXO]

So you think that the rape scene is just an excuse to villify the Pegasus crew and not a way to take a look at the other side of how other people would view Cylons? It seems like it really important to explore the side that people wonder about, since these things are just machines, who cares how they are treated. It's an important part of the show. But then again its convenient to throw it out like that just to satisfy your point of view that the writers of the show isn't as good as you think you are.

[Gaijin]

This show is golden in that it stirs discussion whether you like the direction taken or not.

[Mechleader]

I love the show. And one thing I noticed. Yes they give you what you expect BUT then they throw a curve ball...something youdidn't expect.

[Gaijin]

I seriously liked the music in the last episode too...the opening one was filled with hope...the closing one was tense building and then the Taiko drums came rumbling in. Must get S2 soundtrack when it's out.

[Major Johnathan]

I don't think there's really much controversey that 'human' cylons are sentient artificial life forms. As such, gang raping them seems cruel and unjustifiable in any scenario. So having the Pegasus behave like a bunch of inhuman thugs seems out of place. Your supposed to believe Galactica and Pegasus are from the same fleet, same civilization, but Pegasus comes straight out of the 3rd Reich?

I enjoyed the mini series and most of seaon one, I guess I'm really in the minority, but season two has been seriously dissapointing. I think they've gotten a bit lost on how to progress the show so they resort to a lot of contrived melodrama that doesn't make much sense.

Just a case in point; by the end of season one, they had done a great job of handling the Apollo/Adama relationship. They start out estranged, but Apollo realizes the old man really does care about him. The exchange about how if Apollo were missing (As Starbuck was), Adama would never end the search. Then there was the Asteroid mission where Adama gives Apollo the lighter for good luck etc. Next thing you know, Apollo turns back into a rebellious 15 year old joining Roslin on a religous-semi-coup, even after Adama is shot right in front of him, he STILL goes on with the coup, betraying his Father while he's not even out of a comma. Then he nearly makes a really tacky propaganda tape condemning his 'Tyrant' Father. It just ruined all the well written character development between the two for me. Now Apollo really does seem like a selfish,smug 'Daddy's boy' , i.e. he can do no wrong because Adama's his Dad. That just kind of ruined Apollo for me.

What they've done to Starbuck is worse.

[Major Johnathan]

Sorry, damnable double posting!

Edited September 26, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[Dobber]

The one thing that hasn't been brought up by anyone yet is that while most...in show and fan base.....is outraged by what happened (near Rape) that they seem to forget that the cylons are using humans for medical experiments, they are Raping women back on the colonies for use in baby farms, now this doesn't justify what the Peg crew did, I find it interesting that people forget or overlook that. Either they think that the Cylons are the bad guys and that it is expected or that they are less than human so it's expected. I personally believe that it's because we are more interested in our own actions and that we want to be better than our enemy, real world example,... the reaction to Abu Garib as opposed to what happened to Nick Berg (he was the first one to have his head cut off on camera).

We want to be better than our enemy, but i find it interesting that they Cylons, while trying to be more human but yet thinking they are better than us, get outraged when something terrible is done to one of thier kind but ignore what THEY do to humans or thier enemy. Very human I think and very much a reflection on the current state of the real world.

Adama was right in the Mini series when he asked if we as a species are worth saving. That's what I love about this show, it really makes you think,and think that Adama and most of the RTF have shown that they are.

Chris

[Gaijin]

The one thing that hasn't been brought up by anyone yet is that while most...in show and fan base.....is outraged by what happened (near Rape) that they seem to forget that the cylons are using humans for medical experiments, they are Raping women back on the colonies for use in baby farms, now this doesn't justify what the Peg crew did, I find it interesting that people forget or overlook that. Either they think that the Cylons are the bad guys and that it is expected or that they are less than human so it's expected. I personally believe that it's because we are more interested in our own actions and that we want to be better than our enemy, real world example,... the reaction to Abu Garib as opposed to what happened to Nick Berg (he was the first one to have his head cut off on camera).

We want to be better than our enemy, but i find it interesting that they Cylons, while trying to be more human but yet thinking they are better than us, get outraged when something terrible is done to one of thier kind but ignore what THEY do to humans or thier enemy. Very human I think and very much a reflection on the current state of the real world.

Adama was right in the Mini series when he asked if we as a species are worth saving. That's what I love about this show, it really makes you think,and think that Adama and most of the RTF have shown that they are.

Chris

331593[/snapback]

Good point.

[Axelay]

The one thing that hasn't been brought up by anyone yet is that while most...in show and fan base.....is outraged by what happened (near Rape) that they seem to forget that the cylons are using humans for medical experiments, they are Raping women back on the colonies for use in baby farms, now this doesn't justify what the Peg crew did, I find it interesting that people forget or overlook that. Either they think that the Cylons are the bad guys and that it is expected or that they are less than human so it's expected. I personally believe that it's because we are more interested in our own actions and that we want to be better than our enemy, real world example,... the reaction to Abu Garib as opposed to what happened to Nick Berg (he was the first one to have his head cut off on camera).

We want to be better than our enemy, but i find it interesting that they Cylons, while trying to be more human but yet thinking they are better than us, get outraged when something terrible is done to one of thier kind but ignore what THEY do to humans or thier enemy. Very human I think and very much a reflection on the current state of the real world.

Adama was right in the Mini series when he asked if we as a species are worth saving. That's what I love about this show, it really makes you think,and think that Adama and most of the RTF have shown that they are.

Chris

331593[/snapback]

Right on. We, as the "good guys," think we're supposed to be better than that. And to see some of our own stoop to the levels of the "bad guys" can be very shocking.

[chowyunskinny]

just listened to the podcast for the season finale.

Ronald Moore said that the Pegasus didn't get hacked by the initial cylon attacked because all her computers were offline for the overhaul. This was originally going to be addressed when Adaman, Roslyn and Cain were having drinks.

[Baldrick]

I really liked the episode, it was good to see how a more militaristic ship would react to the ragtag civilian fleet’s situation and the arrangements they have made.

I really don't see the Pegasus crew and officers as evil, or as the bad guys. Many of their actions shown to date are highly probable in war, and understandable in an all out on for the survival of your species. The “toy†status of 6 served many beneficial functions: to break her will for intel, object of power/revenge/morale-boost for the crew, and the continued dehumanization of human form cylons. I don’t agree with the argument that Kain (as a woman) would not be able to order/condone 6’s treatment. Her character seemed quite able to make that decision.

One thing that bothered me was Kain’s verdict to execute Helo and the Chief for their manslaughter in such a short timeframe. She should have faked some predetermined court martial for Adama’s sake. That situation seemed very rushed and forced in order to provide a viper vs. viper cliffhanger - it is pretty clear that Kain will back off first, but seeing the Pegasus launch so many Mark VII vipers was awesome!

There were a couple of problems with the interrogation scene ... I find it hard to believe that a single interrogator would be able to rape a human form cylon. With her enhanced strength, she should have easily been able to protect herself from one man. Having her appear weak and vulnerable was simply to foster more sympathy. I also assume that the writers/producers understandably wanted to keep “the rape scene†as short as possible … they had to avoid showing the amount of violence subduing her would require (having the guards beat and hold her down). Also, why weren’t there any Galatica personnel in the room to observe the interrogation? Are we supposed to believe that three Pegasus guys can just walk into a secure holding cell and conduct an interrogation without anyone knowing or protesting? That plot hole would have stopped the whole string of events from happening in the first place.

[EXO]

That plot hole would have stopped the whole string of events from happening in the first place.

331689[/snapback]

yeah it would...

[cobywan]

There were a couple of problems with the interrogation scene ...  I find it hard to believe that a single interrogator would be able to rape a human form cylon.  With her enhanced strength, she should have easily been able to protect herself from one man.

331689[/snapback]

Correct. It was stated that the number Six model killed 7 men before being subdued. But maybe having a couple of fully automatic rifles pointed at Sharon's head could controll her actions.

[glane21]

Some points of interest:

1) The Galactica regularly used torture in their interrogations. Starbuck was pretty brutal on that one guy before he was flushed out the airlock, and Tigh beat on the first Boomer a while too.

2) Adama tried to choke Boomer to death on Cobol. He only complained to Cain about getting his men back, no mention of the attempted rape on Boomer or her mens' behavior. I don't think he cares about that.

3) As someone pointed out, these cylons are super strong, so why are these two suddenly so weak?

4) Don't Cylons of the same model share memories? Like new Boomer remembers Old Boomer's relationship with the chief. So why doesn't 6 know about this captured 6's plight? Or is that only when they die...

5) It is interesting that the Cylons have the very traits they supposedly hate in humans.

6) The captured Six participated in and had a mission to kill humans, just like all Cylons. No mercy for her. Remember in the mini series when she broke that baby's neck just to do it? I think her model deserves whatever it gets.

[Knight26]

ALso Sharon is less likely to put up too much of a struggle due to her pregnancy and the risk that she could lose the baby.

[Major Johnathan]

6) The captured Six participated in and had a mission to kill humans, just like all Cylons.  No mercy for her.  Remember in the mini series when she broke that baby's neck just to do it?  I think her model deserves whatever it gets.

331728[/snapback]

Good memory refresher. I wonder if Baltar would feel so sympathetic if he saw 6 killing that baby for the heck of it. Stop ganging raping and chuck her out the 'ol air lock already. That's good enough for Galactica after all.

[Uxi]

Yup yup. This is a war for the species. Whatever humans have done, the Cylons have done worst as they're perpetrated genocide and nuked their planets. If the Soviets had nuked the Eastern seaboard during the Cuban Missile Crisis, we would have annihilated their entire civilization from the Baltic through Sibera to Vladovistok and from the northern tip to the southern boarder and probably most of the Eastern Bloc to go with it. Meek and gentle people sitting safe and sound behind their computers are only free to do so because rough men are ready to do violence on their behalf.

[cobywan]

Meek and gentle people sitting safe and sound behind their computers are only free to do so because rough men are ready to do violence on their behalf.

331774[/snapback]

That's a depressing thought.

[Greyryder]

I was always under the impression that Six killed the baby, to spare it from the bombings that she knew were coming.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

Meek and gentle people sitting safe and sound behind their computers are only free to do so because rough men are ready to do violence on their behalf.

331774[/snapback]

Same as it ever was.

[Gaijin]

I was always under the impression that Six killed the baby, to spare it from the bombings that she knew were coming.

331798[/snapback]

Perhaps, but I also got the impression she did it by accident too...she had never seen a baby and was fascinated by how fragile it was...after the baby dies, she really looked surprised and then upset after.

[chowyunskinny]

Vipers are neat

[Skippy438]

Has the second season started in the UK yet? On a completely unrelated note, a friend of mine bought the DVDs, and we noticed there was an entire Boxy subplot in the first season that ended up on the cutting room floor. Thank God, because it completely undermined the series. It was pointless comic relief in a series, that while it may have needed it to lighten the mood, did not fit in any capacity. Any thoughts from those who've seen it?

[Skippy438]

Well, the guy from First Wave is a Peg pilot, so he'll probably stay on for a while ...

[Dobber]

In the commentaries for both the Mini and the episode with Boxey much was explained.

1) Six breaking the babies neck, I too thought maybe she was sparing it from the bombings but it sounds like, from what Ron Moore said, that she was just curious how the neck could hold so much weight and performed an experiment to see how much.

2)Boxey subplot was originally supposed to introduce the family dynamic to the show and have Boomer and the Chief be the parental figures, they later "thankfully" decided against it. This is before they knew where they were going with the Sharons and Tyrol.

Chris

[Dobber]

Interesting that Six can uses Baltars Dream about Adama drowning a defensless baby to demonstrate humanities evil when she ACTUALLY killed a baby with her own hands! She is Evil. I hope the writers and producers haven't forgotten that and won't become a plot hole. However, it wouldn't be the first time the show the Cylons being hypocritical when addressing behaviour of humans and themselves. I just wish someone in the show would point that out to them once.

Chris

Edited September 27, 2005 by Dobber

[EXO]

but did Six actually do that? Or was it Baltar's own subconcious perception of Adama and the military. We know for a fact now that there's no chip inside Baltar, and there's no way Six told him about that incedent with the baby.

Edited September 27, 2005 by >EXO<

[Dobber]

Well, it was the Six in Baltars head that brought it up to him later on after the "vision." Regardless of how he actually had the vision, she still brought it up to him later on. I still think there is more to SiBH than just a hallucination. Just because a MRI or what ever they did to Baltar couldn't find a "chip" doesn't mean there isn't something of that nature there. If Sharon can hook up a fiber-optic cabel in her arm but still be indistinguishable as a Human, then the Cylons must use some form of advanced bio technology that can't be easily noticed. Either way there has been too much that happened to Baltar, in regards to Six, that just can't be written off as coincidence.

I agree that Six never told him of the Baby incident, just that the cylons have this great capacity for hypocracy. Sharon, was the main source of this in season 2 when she copped attitude to people who where misstrustful of her, but the SiBH has also done this to Baltar on several occations but that could easily be designed to get him on her side.

Chris

Edited September 27, 2005 by Dobber

[EXO]

I agree that there's more to Six and Baltar than just hallucinations, that's why I stated it as a question. But is it hypocracy if Six really isn't there.

I thought the same about Boomer and the data cable... I guess a good cylon detection test would be to see if there's a USB connection in someone's wrist.

[Dobber]

Where does the printer cable go?

Chris

Edited September 27, 2005 by Dobber