BattleStar Galactica

[Noriko Takaya]

The differences between the Cain group and Adama group reminded me of another war story that had similar problems - Platoon.  The differences between Cain's command style and Adama's was reminiscent of the viciousness of Tom Berenger's versus the relative calm of Willem Dafoe.  The rape scene was shocking, which reminded me of the part in Platoon where one of Berenger's soldiers caved in the head of the mentally retarded villager.

331166[/snapback]

Totally unrelated to BSG, but I had to correct you on this. The one-legged villager who had his skull caved in with the butt of a shotgun was a Viet Cong soldier and not mentally retarded. This much is stated in Dale Dye's novelization of Oliver Stone's script when the movie first appeared in 1987.

Okay, back to the Cain bashing at hand...

[Effect]

I kinda agree Duke. The way she FTLed away as quickly as she could. In response to the resupply question, the Pegasus is a much larger ship, and may maintain more facilities, or they could be pillaging any and every civilian ship they come across and absorbing them into their crew, most likely destroying the ships behind them to avoid leaving a trail. Did anybody else get the feeling that the Peg was a fierce looking ship, from the angles they were showing it. The Galactica looks friendly by comparison.

331206[/snapback]

That's what I was thinking to be honest. For being able to resupply the Galactica, they either have to have a great ability to make and grow things onboard or they are basiclly raiding and taking over every single civilian or lesser military ship they come across and taking people they need for their crew. It does seem like she is covering something up. Her Xo, the one that talk with Galactica's about her shooting her previous XO. I think that is true now that I've seen the full episode and the story she feed Adama and the Pres was a complete lie.

[Uxi]

I am really suspicious of the Pegasus in plot, too. As with the TOS Pegasus, Cain has a dark side. Which we've all seen. This new Cain just doesn't have the charisma and living legend aspects of the original so it's all negative with little positive (aside from the obvious of bringing a second Battlestar into the equation).

I am thinking there is more to this Cain, though. The original made a deal with the devil (literally) while the good guys were being watched over by the flying snowflake. This time, no snowflakes and probably no "Count Iblis" , either. This Cain was is either a coward or a collaborator. The former has already been discussed a bit... the latter... maybe there IS a Count Iblis analogue we haven't seen yet. Human-form cylon / lover or something on the opposite form of Baltar? Forbes seems far too frigid for that so far, but maybe we're being deliberately misled?

The rape was the one thing that was perfectly understandable as the human form cylons are just that, human-form cylons. They're not human. Toasters made up with skin and bones to look and act like people but still toasters.. Has everyone forgotten about Starbuck's torture of Galactica's captured Cylon? The normal rules don't apply and a brutal hand is called for with the extinction of the species at hand.

Someone brought up Platoon. :shudder: Horrible movie but typical hollyweird depiction of Vietnam. Bumbling dividied US troops where boy scouts are more disciplined, professional, and can set up a better perimeter. Versus well trained and highly motivated enemy. Besides, who sets up their HQ in an ammo dump?

Edited September 24, 2005 by Uxi

[bsu legato]

To all those questioning the torture and rape of a prisoner by a "disciplined" military, I have to ask you...where the hell have you been for the last two or three years? Try turning on the news once in a while, people.

As for Cain herself, I don't really think you're supposed to like her, or most of the Pegasus crew. I know it interferes with whatever ubermensch military fanatasy you might have for Galactica in your minds eye, but the fact is that they've been set up as antagonists.

And my vote is that Cain and possibly most of the Pegasus are collaborators. There's too many gaps in their stories, and the Pegasus crew seem to go out of their way to avoid answering questions. Something's amiss.

[kalvasflam]

And my vote is that Cain and possibly most of the Pegasus are collaborators. There's too many gaps in their stories, and the Pegasus crew seem to go out of their way to avoid answering questions. Something's amiss.

331272[/snapback]

Huh? Ok, what gaps are you talking about? I didn't see anything that leapt out and shouted: "I am unexplained."

[bsu legato]

Well, the Pegasus' escape from the shipyard, for starters. Rosalin asks where they jumped to, and Cain declines to answer until Adama answers for her. Could it be that she really did order a blind jump? Sure. But she could also have been hesitating before she lied about something.

[EXO]

I still don't understand why people are hoping to see the old series by now. It's done! Your BSG was cancelled! Over! kaput! chain=yanked! Plug=pulled!

As for Starbuck being transfered with Apollo, maybe it was for dialogue? Or maybe Cain just wanted 2 real good pilots under her command? Or better yet maybe she wanted a threesome...

Can we find more minute detail that makes this show so bad, yet still be there when it airs January?

Edited September 24, 2005 by >EXO<

[bsu legato]

Can we find more minute detail that makes this show so bad, yet still be there when it airs January?

331297[/snapback]

I thought Adama's hands were way too small....

[EXO]

Can we find more minute detail that makes this show so bad, yet still be there when it airs January?

331297[/snapback]

I thought Adama's hands were way too small....

331301[/snapback]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[Gaijin]

I'm on board with the Pegasus pillaging any ships they came across or were with at the time of the attack....remember the Pegasus' civilian deck chief? He seemed to want to tell them something.

I think Cain took what she could from whatever they came across in order to stay alive but quickly became ruthless....she's turned it into a pirate ship!!! Arrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!

[Golden Arms]

To all those questioning the torture and rape of a prisoner by a "disciplined" military, I have to ask you...where the hell have you been for the last two or three years? Try turning on the news once in a while, people.

As for Cain herself, I don't really think you're supposed to like her, or most of the Pegasus crew. I know it interferes with whatever ubermensch military fanatasy you might have for Galactica in your minds eye, but the fact is that they've been set up as antagonists.

And my vote is that Cain and possibly most of the Pegasus are collaborators. There's too many gaps in their stories, and the Pegasus crew seem to go out of their way to avoid answering questions. Something's amiss.

331272[/snapback]

Very good point about the rape. Very reminescent of the Abu Grab Ass pics that came out. Overall what a great episode. I too feel that there is something fishy about the pegasus and its crew. Maybe the entire crew are toasters.

[Gaijin]

Cain makes Ellen look like Santa Claus on the Bitch-O-Meter.

[Major Johnathan]

To all those questioning the torture and rape of a prisoner by a "disciplined" military, I have to ask you...where the hell have you been for the last two or three years? Try turning on the news once in a while, people.

331272[/snapback]

Thanks for that tip about watching the news, never occured to me. Say, anyone hear this business about the WTC being obliterated along with a bunch of people? Must've been one of those nasty hurricanes.

[Duke Togo]

I'm on board with the Pegasus pillaging any ships they came across or were with at the time of the attack....remember the Pegasus' civilian deck chief?  He seemed to want to tell them something. 

I think Cain took what she could from whatever they came across in order to stay alive but quickly became ruthless....she's turned it into a pirate ship!!!  Arrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!

331307[/snapback]

A pirate ship... might not be too far from the truth. And now Cain is taking what and who she wants from the fleet...

[Odyn]

Has anyone checked out Ronald D. Moore's podcast about each episode? He has been release one pod cast per episode for season two so far. The intent is to listen to the pod cast while watching the show. Not normally the way I listen to it, but to each his own. I've really been enjoying hearing about how things come together, the problems they face or whatever else he happens to talk about. The info on Cain, Pegasus and her crew was very enlightening.

Podcast

[Anubis]

One thing about the supply is that Galactica was being decomissioned, a lot of the supplies probably were offloaded.

The Pegasus however had (allegedly) just docked at the shipyard for maintenance/refit/etc. As such it had it's full load on board still, and may have even took on supplies before the crew could go on leave.

As for her delay in discussing the blind jump, she might have been ashamed that she had to order a blind jump in order to escape. With her personality, running from a fight would be disgraceful to her. Having to jump hurt her ego a bit.

As for the Mk. VII's, I thought they had to remove some of the computers and networked stuff off them, making them harder to pilot in the process? At a minimum the tweaks probably lowered their effectiveness from their peak.

The question I have is: Didn't the cylons shut down the all the battlestars? That's why they were destroyed so easily. Only Galctica was spared because of it's old design. Everything at the shipyard should have shut down and have been sitting ducks, yet the Pegasus somehow was able to escape while the attack was happening.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Anubis

[Gaijin]

One thing about the supply is that Galactica was being decomissioned, a lot of the supplies probably were offloaded.

The Pegasus however had (allegedly) just docked at the shipyard for maintenance/refit/etc.  As such it had it's full load on board still, and may have even took on supplies before the crew could go on leave.

As for her delay in discussing the blind jump, she might have been ashamed that she had to order a blind jump in order to escape.  With her personality, running from a fight would be disgraceful to her.  Having to jump hurt her ego a bit.

As for the Mk. VII's, I thought they had to remove some of the computers and networked stuff off them, making them harder to pilot in the process?  At a minimum the tweaks probably lowered their effectiveness from their peak.

The question I have is:  Didn't the cylons shut down the all the battlestars?  That's why they were destroyed so easily.  Only Galctica was spared because of it's old design.  Everything at the shipyard should have shut down and have been sitting ducks, yet the Pegasus somehow was able to escape while the attack was happening.

331331[/snapback]

Speculation but, maybe the Cylons prob didn't even bother with the virus and just nuked the shipyards as Cain had said, not thinking one of them could escape through the normal means and if they had tried, they'd disable the ship then.

I'm really betting on Cain's story being mostly true, but having just watched the episode again, at the very end when Cain and Adama are squaring off, she does hesitate before launching her Vipers...almost as if she is afraid, since she's seen that Adama and the old Galactica has survived just as long as them with less supplies, inferior ships, etc. She's weighing the options and I think she knows that Adama and the Galactica with the rest of the fleet is a bigger threat to her than the Cylons. I think she's really afraid of the war, and has covered that up by becoming the tyrant to hide the fear...

that and she likes to wear an eye patch and run around her quarters yelling " Ahoy Mateys!!....I will take yer gold!!!"

Edited September 25, 2005 by Gaijin

[LePoseur]

To all those questioning the torture and rape of a prisoner by a "disciplined" military, I have to ask you...where the hell have you been for the last two or three years? Try turning on the news once in a while, people.

331272[/snapback]

Thanks for that tip about watching the news, never occured to me. Say, anyone hear this business about the WTC being obliterated along with a bunch of people? Must've been one of those nasty hurricanes.

331319[/snapback]

The terroist attack on Sept. 11 stirs up a lot of emotion (as it should) but I seriously hope you aren't suggesting that it justifies the rape of another person.

All snarkiness aside, when I read bsu's comment the first thing I thought of was Okinawa.

Maybe that's just because I live in Japan.

Seriously though, if you are suggesting rape as payback, than how long until Japan is "forgiven?"

Sorry again for jumping on you for this, but please reconsider what you're saying.

[Major Johnathan]

The terroist attack on Sept. 11 stirs up a lot of emotion (as it should) but I seriously hope you aren't suggesting that it justifies the rape of another person.

All snarkiness aside, when I read bsu's comment the first thing I thought of was Okinawa.

Maybe that's just because I live in Japan.

Seriously though, if you are suggesting rape as payback, than how long until Japan is "forgiven?"

Sorry again for jumping on you for this, but please reconsider what you're saying.

331350[/snapback]

No, that's not what I was getting at. I just didn't appreciate the "try turning on the news once in a while" comment(I happen to watch and read lots of news every day, it's really depressing too). I know BSG is filled with situations 'inspired' by 9/11,War on Terror,Iraq, current events etc. That's part of what drew me to the show.

It seems some fans of BSG can't comprehend being a fan of a show and still finding faults with it. (Such as Star Wars fans who hate Ewoks or Jar-Jar.) I've said it before, there's lots of good things working for BSG, but some of the writing this season has some serious holes in it. They created characters, spent a mini series and a season developing them, and then spent most of season 2 in contrived confrontations, IMHO, wrecking their credibilty and turning them into very unsympathetic people.

It's like some of us are watching two differnet shows. My problem with Cain is she points out all the highly questionable, even laughable decisions Adama and Roslin make BUT we can't make Adama and Roslin look too bad, so let's write Cain and her crew into absolute brutal tyrants. In other words, it the writer's way off getting off the hook for all the bizzare character developments of season 2.

Remember Starbuck torturing the male Cylon?(incidentally, she's a pilot, not an interrogater) Remeber Roslin ordering they chuck him out the air lock,and do?Remember Roslin ordering Caprica Boomer thrown out the airlock?(she only stopped because of useful information) Remember Callie(?) executing a helpless Galactica Boomer and Adama sentencing her to a month in the brig for it? Are we supposed to forget about those incidents? When you recalll that, even the brutal Admiral Cain doesn't seem so bad. That's what I mean about the writing, they make the main characters irratic and hypocritical, only your not supposed to notice.

So, yeah Rape's bad, but is it worse than outright murder? Or was it murder, since they were only Cylon 'toasters'? So is it really rape, if they're just 'toasters'? My point isn't wether those incidents are right or wrong, it's that if Adama,Roslin,Starbuck or Apollo do it, they're gritty heroes, if Cain or her crew do it, they're brutal bastards. That to me is dissapointing writing.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[azrael]

According to the podcast for this episode, this episode was actually an hour long (not 45 minutes) and they were shooting for a 1.5 hour broadcasts. Ron Moore did state that this extended cut will be on the DVD set for this season.

Also, according to the podcast, Cain was on the fast-track to becoming admiral. That's why she made admiral at her age compared to Adama, who's still a commander. This was suppose to be touched on, but was cut.

As for the whole repeated gang rapes, what can I say about it that hasn't been said...The condition that particular Six was in....Putting it out its misery would be preferable compared to the alternative (more gang rapes).

I think the real dilemma with Cain is shes right about the haphazard way Adama has run his fleet, but she is wrong in that its a total mistake. BSG was the unconventional ship, thats why it survived, it made unconventional decisions (running instead of fighting) versus the rest of the BattleStars.

Actually, what Cain said about Galactiaca is right; if this was Colonial Fleet. But this isn't. Adama has been easy on them because there's been nobody else to turn to. He knows that if he becomes like Cain, it's gonna hurt him and everybody else. And he relies on these people to keep everybody alive. If he began executing crew just because they made a bad choice, what kind of person would he be? Who is he going to turn to? Who's gonna help him if he did that? Adama earns respect, not grab it by gun-point. And if they didn't trust each other, they would all be dead.

[myk]

To all those questioning the torture and rape of a prisoner by a "disciplined" military, I have to ask you...where the hell have you been for the last two or three years? Try turning on the news once in a while, people.

331272[/snapback]

Thanks for that tip about watching the news, never occured to me. Say, anyone hear this business about the WTC being obliterated along with a bunch of people? Must've been one of those nasty hurricanes.

331319[/snapback]

The terroist attack on Sept. 11 stirs up a lot of emotion (as it should) but I seriously hope you aren't suggesting that it justifies the rape of another person.

All snarkiness aside, when I read bsu's comment the first thing I thought of was Okinawa.

Maybe that's just because I live in Japan.

Seriously though, if you are suggesting rape as payback, than how long until Japan is "forgiven?"

Sorry again for jumping on you for this, but please reconsider what you're saying.

331350[/snapback]

It pains me to reply to this sub-topic as I fear that this excellent 'Galactica thread will become another political pissing contest.

Call me evil if you must, but as far as I'm concerned ALL is fair in war. War is the agreed medium in which opposing political bodies agree to obliterate one another for supremacy and survival. To achieve that supremacy and survival any and all means to inflict the maximum amount of destruction and damage on the opposing side is the accepted method of war. Therefor, whether you're trying to efficiently conquer land by unleashing a weapon of mass destruction on its populace, or attempting to gain valuable information and intelligence by using rape and physical/mental torture on a female prisoner of war, there is no difference.

The remaining people of the 12 colonies are at war and on the run from the Cylons-they should use ANY means possible to gain whatever advantage they can over their dominant enemy if they intend to survive.

As for the Pegasus and her crew, I find no fault with the characters themselves, rather, with the way that the writers portrayed them. I find it hard to accept that most if not all of the words and sentiments of the Pegasus crew were excessively malicious and hostile towards the Galactica crew. Not having served aboard a military vessel I'm guessing that in actual navies there is a certain level of "competitiveness" between ships, however this episode featured a technologically superior ship with its high-browed Admiral leading a crew of bullies and gang rapists picking on poor old Adama and his quaint little Galactica. I guess I'm just saying that they shouldn't have been portrayed as being so "evil." I'm sure the argument could be made that they've "been through alot" and that would certainly change them, however Galactica and it's crew have also been through quite a deal, yet all they do is frak one another, drink alchohol and knock up the women of the enemy....

Edited September 25, 2005 by myk

[Seven]

Sure, the rape thing is ugly. Sure, the torture thing is ugly. But do either apply when talking about the Cylons? They are MACHINES. Sure, they are sentient, but its like me ramming my car into a wall and someone telling me that I murdered my car in cold blood.

From Webster Dictionary:

Main Entry: 1mur·der

Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r

Function: noun

Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal

1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Main Entry: 3rape

Function: noun

1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force

2 : unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent -- compare SEXUAL ASSAULT, STATUTORY RAPE

3 : an outrageous violation

For those that don't get my meaning, a machine is not a person. A machine is not a female. Boomer or Six may appear to be female, but to even them, she's a model type and there is no gender.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Seven

[Major Johnathan]

I'm not sure politics is the right word, more like philosophy or world view. BSG is FULL of refrences to current events, you can't really talk about the show without treading on some touchy subjects.

Otherwise, this whole thread would be full of "Vipers are neat " "yep , they sure are ."

To the show's credit, I think they've done a decent job of presenting scenarios and dilemmas in a reasonably fair way. Sometimes they go overboard, such as the long term, sanctioned gang rape of a cylon prisoner. Seems more at home in a Hentai show. Just struck me as over the top Jerry Springer style sensationalism.(so was the 'shocking' revelation that Starbuck was abused as a child, too maudlin for this show.) They just seem to stick these things in for the shock value.

Where in real life do you hear people seriously arguing for gang rape? That's why I feel it's a cheap way to force the audiance to dislike Cain. Instead of presenting the more regular military-by the book approach to contrast with Galactica's 'irregular' style of leadership, they go off the deep end and make Admiral Cain into Mrs. Hitler.

I can't imagine how they're going to make Cain the least bit sympathetic or realistic after her introduction. So they actually took the long anticipated Pegasus story line and made them into absolute villains as bad or worse than the Cylons. It's dissapointing, would it have been so terrible if they were just a fellow cool ship that says 'hey, lets work together and kick some Cylon butt'. Every plot development has to be filled with treachery, back stabbing, trauma, deception and the lowest displays of human behavior... it's just getting as depressing as the real news.

Seriously man, I'm rooting for the mechanical Cylons now. The perfect end to this show would be the 'toasters' annihilating the Pegasus, the Civillian fleet, Galactica and nuking Earth, and lastly; wiping out the human-cylons for fraternizing with and resembling the enemy.

[Gaijin]

I think it would have been more of a cop out if the Pegasus turned out to be just a "feel great" episode with all likable people. The first 6 minutes of the show when they find the Pegasus, with the great music playing, it's very inspirational and touching...but then a few scenes in...something's just not right.

For me at least, it makes for more interesting storytelling than to have a , "Yay, now we have new friends!!" show. The original series did that...no need to repeat it verbatim...and since we don't know how the Pegasus storyline will finally end, it could take a turn as well.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Gaijin

[Panon]

I think people who feel the crew of the Pegasus were all over the top bad are forgetting exactly what they situation is -

Since the Cylon attack, they've believed themselves to be the last living humans alive. Except unlike Galactica, they have no fleet, no 50,000 civilians, no mythical world to search for. Nothing to maintain their humanity.

They're just one battlestar, alone. With the number onboard a battlestar too few to repopulate the species, there was no hope at all for the rebuilding of the human race, so they had no purpose, nothing to live for but to inflict as much harm against the Cylons as they could before their race ended. Everything and everyone left in the universe was an adversary to them and a threat.

Great episode. The show somehow never fails to keep on outdoing itself week after week.

A let down compared to the original series Pegasus story? LOL. That's all that needs to be said on that.

[Dobber]

While some are critisizing(spelling) Adama for his lack of rigidness and say Cain is correct and more by the book. You gota remember that Galactica is in a completely unique situation with the remander of the Human race with her. Adama even said it early in season one when Roslyn wanted Adama to use his troops as a Police force. Adama said something like the police are there to protect the people while the military is there to fight the enemy, and that the problem with the military becoming the police is that the peolpe become the enemy. He had to find a new way of doing things. Plus like he said to the reporter when she questioned him about letting Tigh keep his job. They have no one else to replace peolple if the screw up, and can't just arbitralily(spelling) dismiss people. Who they have is all they got, and some slack has got to be given.

Cain was also in a unique situation where she thought they were the only survivors of humanity....just that one ship and no one else. RDM said in the Podcast that the Pegasus went through alot of hardships just as the Galactica did and that it moulded them as a result of those unique and terrible experiences just as Galactica did. So if Adama and the RTF can make poor decisions why couldn't Cain? When the Pegasus met the Fleet....it was the Pegasus that should have learned how the rest of Humanity is functioning,and found a way to fit into it.....not the remander of Humanity finding a way to fit in with the Pegasus. All that Being said I think that the Pirate ship analogy is pretty acurate. Pegasus and Cain had to report to no one, and had to look out for no one else but themselves, and it shows.

Death hammer wrote~

Until people get to know you and you prove yourself, you are going to get treated like horseshit, esp when lives are on the line. Of course the new CAG is going to be a prick, thats his job. Its easier to be a prick then ease it back later, but its impossible to start off soft and try to enforce more rigid discipline down the road. Apollo and Starbuck might be the hotshots on Galactica, but that means jackshit to the pilots on Pegasus and rightly so. But how is this different from any form of socialized hazing? Frats, pro sports teams, first day at a new job, even religion has a form of it.

True enough, but the same would apply to the crew/pilots of the Pegasus. If what the Galactica and her pilots accomplished count for Jack, why should the Peg's accomplishments count to The G. After all, like I said above, the Peg is rejoining whats left of the colonies, not the other way around.

Chris

Edited September 25, 2005 by Dobber

[LePoseur]

There was a post over on the SciFi.com board by a guy (?) named Demandrel that I thought was interesting.

Here it is ripped directly

I do not agree that rape becomes pale in comparison when you have killed people for years. To kill someone is not a significant feat, and does not take any cruelty or personal malice. If you are a soldier, you are not being cruel by killing someone; you are just killing them. And really, to kill someone does not inflict a lot of pain on them: better to be dead than tortured, right? If you kill someone, they do not have to experience any more pain, fight in any more wars, or spend the rest of their life maimed and unhappy; they are only denied potential happiness they could have experienced in the future.

As a soldier, I would never rape anyone. As an officer, I would never condone rape by my soldiers. I would feel horrible if I had to torture someone or order torture, but if it was a necessity, I would do so, because it could be essential to the battle. Rape could never be essential to the battle.

In the same way, as an impartial observer, I am not really horrified by the Cylon's destruction of the colonies. If an enemy civilization had attempted to destroy our civilization in a massive war, and we had the opportunity, we would use nuclear weapons against them. If we believed that we could never win unless they were all destroyed... well, then we would likely nuke them all. The US was prepared to nuke the Soviets, right? You do whatever it takes to win a war. It's not like the Cylons did anything we would be unwilling to do. If the humans had ever found them again, they would have tried to exterminate them. They would have had no qualms with destroying every single Cylon. So why would any of us expect the Cylons to be any different?

So why shouldn't Six be horrified when she steps into the room and sees that someone is raped her? Killing people in a war does not mean you deserve to be raped; it just means you deserve to be killed, a far less significant punishment. And why did people feel so angry at the raping of a Cylon who had attempted to destroy humanity? Because we would have felt just as angry at the raping of a Soviet female during the cold war, even if she had been the one who pushed the big red button.

Not exactly my POV but I thought it was interesting and pretty much agree with it.

As for my posting about Okinawa, I hope Major Johnathan doesn't think I'm on him too bad. My point was more to support Bsu's argument of rape existing even in a otherwise well-disciplened military. It only takes a few bad apples after all... In fact after reading the follow up comments I'd say that I didn't clearly see where Major Johnathan wanted to go with his comment about 9/11, so I want to call no harm/no foul there.

In response to if it matters if they are a toaster or not though, I say it doesn't. Sure you can run your car into a house, but your car is not a sentient intelligence. Once the Cylons achieved AI they are really no different than humans in terms of morality, are they? Maybe a better anology would be if you ran a super-intelligent dolphin into a house and killed it. And yes, in that case I think you would have some people getting angry about it. Only in BSG's case I guess we would be the dolphins and the Cylons would be Human.

Edited September 25, 2005 by LePoseur

[Dobber]

I gotta disagree with that guy at sci-fi and others that think the colonials are evil or would have done the same as the Cylons had. The mini stated that an armistus (spelling) was reached and the "colonials" built the station where Humans and Cylons could "meet" to discuss thier issues ala Babylon 5. The Cylons went off on thier own and the colonials didn't hear from them in 40 years until "SUPRISE!!!!" I don't believe that the Colonials where actively "hunting" the Cylons. Why build a station to talk to an enemy that you where actively attacking. They were building up a military but hey they had 12 planets to protect, from either the cylon return, or who knows what else was possibly out there.

Chris

Edited September 25, 2005 by Dobber

[Noriko Takaya]

Edit: Removed by Noriko Takaya because of a lapse of judgement.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Noriko Takaya

[bsu legato]

This makes it sound like all US servicemen are nothing but a bunch of rapists.

331429[/snapback]

I don't think that was what he was implying.

[Axelay]

It's safe to say that this issue has definitely rattled the cages of many a viewer. I'll give the writers credit for that. What really hits home for me, though, is that in this case the act of rape shows how humans can still stoop to their basest and cruelest of instincts. It's an interesting plot point which I feel will really break Baltar into becoming openly sympathetic and will finally cause him to join the Cylons. I never thought I might be tempted to root for the them even just a little bit, but when you see the Colonials acting this way, it's hard not to.

But my biggest question is this. Why didn't the Pegasus' "interrogation party" take Sharon back to the Pegasus with them? That seems to me like a huge open door for the story. Perhaps Adama will once again enlist in Sharon's help to cripple the Pegasus? I am just so curious as to how they have managed to escape the Cylon virus attacks. Even more so, how did they manage to take down 15 squadrons of Raiders?

I'm taking a wild guess here and thinking that perhaps Roslyn will either demote Cain or promote Adama in an attempt to keep the peace. Either way, Cain is not likely to respect anything Roslyn does, though.

[Anubis]

It's safe to say that this issue has definitely rattled the cages of many a viewer. I'll give

I'm taking a wild guess here and thinking that perhaps Roslyn will either demote Cain or promote Adama in an attempt to keep the peace. Either way, Cain is not likely to respect anything Roslyn does, though.

331445[/snapback]

I thouight about that too. Cain's opinion doesn't really matter in the long run vs the PRESIDENT. It doesn't matter if Cain doesn't like the factthat the Secretart of Education is the president but that fact remins that she is. Cain could already be in hot water for ignoring the President's attampts at communication. You don't do that, and it's not quite "by the boook" of Cain to do that. With all that's happeneing since the Pegasus rejoined the fleet, the President would have the authority to knock her down administratively back to commander and give Adama a field promotion to Admiral. The "I'm a flag officer" business doesn't trump the President of the Colonies. Military decisions were left to Adama previously because of Adama and Roslyn negotiating with each other on how things would work most smoothly.

It would also send a message to Cain that Roslyn won't take any crap from her.

[Noriko Takaya]

This makes it sound like all US servicemen are nothing but a bunch of rapists.

331429[/snapback]

I don't think that was what he was implying.

331434[/snapback]

You know what, I am wrong and you are right. I got my facts a little screwed up, and if I came off as harsh I am sorry. He is refering to the Nanking incident and I went off half-cocked. I am retracting my earlier post.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Noriko Takaya

[Anubis]

The problem with the rape is deeper than the dillemma as to wether she's a cylon or not. Yes, technically Sharon, and Pegasus's Six are cylons, machines, but just because they are cylon where is the line between cruelty and acceptability?

They still can suffer and be traumatized. They feel. The technical rule of law as it is currently written says "person", so it may not be technically illegal, but the fact remains to mercilessly rape them is still simply cruel. Being cylon is an excuse. Rape is a cruel act. For the Pegasus crew to treat it so comically and easily is simply barbaric and pure cruelty. The pegusus guys in the fliught deck's "bar" was pricks because they made those comments in front of the two guys boomer is close with, with no regard for anyone on the Galctica. Once you start applying exuses like that to justify cruel and wrong acts, it's easier to condone other acts of cruelty. They did all that to Six specifically so she could suffer, and they could find some kind of amuzement out of her suffering. It's just wrong, and unacceptable in any curcumstance. The fact that six is different allowed them to brutalize her, and the wrongness of that seems to be the key message. After hering thos guys joke about Boomer, I wouldn't trust any of them around Callie or any other female. It's just one more step after where they're at to rape an actual person.

If they were so alone and so disheartened being the only ship left and only had fighting cylons left as the only thing they had to hold on to, you would think they would be ecstatic to find the galactica fleet. They should have been embracing them, even if slowly, but intstead of that they are being a giant pack of jackasses from the start, and quickly making the Galactica people wish they never came.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Anubis

[azrael]

After hering thos guys joke about Boomer, I wouldn't trust any of them around Callie or any other female.  It's just one more step after where they're at to rape an actual person.

331491[/snapback]

That's probably why Cally and the other female tech left the room. Too much booze, too much talking about the "fun" they've been having with the Cylon.