BattleStar Galactica

[Gaijin]

Oh, MJ, small hands is refering to people bitching about Hayden Christianson (spelling) in the Vader outfit. People were bitching about Vaders hands looking too small.

Chris

359266[/snapback]

Is that what is was? I honestly didn't know either, just listing the things I hear on here.

[big F]

Oh, MJ, small hands is refering to people bitching about Hayden Christianson (spelling) in the Vader outfit. People were bitching about Vaders hands looking too small.

Chris

359266[/snapback]

Is that what is was? I honestly didn't know either, just listing the things I hear on here.

359395[/snapback]

Thought it hadto do with that, also thoght it might be in reference to Yamoto 1/48`s hands.

Still waiting for Boxies robot dog to make its apearance.

Edited January 11, 2006 by big F

[Wes]

Some things I don't get about your guys' reasoning:

Adama sacrificing Starbuck? More than anything, they'd think she's a Cyclon and capture her. It's happened with the last two. Then Adama, as the head military officer again, will have full authority to do with her what he wants. Full flight status may be unlikely for awhile, but she won't be shot or abused.

Cain justified in her treatment of civilians + prisoner Cylon? If you think that, you're missing the biggest point of the show. Roslin especially has been pushing the fact that most people define a civilization as "better" than others is not just their skill and tech, but their morals and how they fair in extreme circumstances. Even the original show hit on this alot, it just wasn't such an uphill battle in their own fleet as it is for the remake. This is why many gravitate towards her, especially Lee Adama with his "schoolboy" (forgive the pun) mentality coincides with that ideology. Cain, on the other had, threw those higher morals away like they were in-laws - about as quickly as possible. While if she didn't have that whole kill-whomever-defies-me mentality she would be livable, but even then she'd be an anchor that ties the fleet to the colonies when they really need to get out of there. Don't judge Roslin as too vicious - remember, while it is obvious that Zerek wants her dead she hasn't done him in yet. Although Zerek's the emo kid of the show he's not as dangerous as Cain. The worst Roslin's been doing is a little too much weed.

The fleet running to hide? It would be a nice extra, but they, like the colonial fleet in the original, think of Earth as their last great hope. They'd just show up, catch up on about 3000+ years of history, and Earth will help them open a can of whoopass on the Cylons. And why not? The colonies' planetary defenses were capable of defending against invasion(well presumably, until a Cylon got into the network via Baltar's pants) so why shouldn't Earth be on par, if not better off than them? Whether or not they are or not we'd probably never find out.

Adamlyn? Rosama? Now you guys are just getting bored. Find some good video games to play or something. Although truth be told, it seems they took the grandfather-like Adama for the original and made Adama and Roslin for this remake.

Who here doesn't think Tigh is total poo? It seems like many of you don't think too highly of him, but it's obvious that, from that flashback episode and what we've seen of him, is that the last Cylon war was not too kind to him and he's been using alcohol as a crutch, but there's been many real-world men traumatized in the same fashion. I can see why Adama still thinks he's useful - he's got a feel to how the cylons move, like when the cylons boarded he knew where they would hit. Whether it's natural or because he's 1 of 2 vets from the last war doesn't really matter. He's also pretty good with people, he got vital info from Fist and he got those engines for the home-made Viper. Again, whether or not it's natural or because he's a drunk doesn't really matter.

I hope we start to see more of Adama and his past because to me he's more of a blank slate than anyone important on the show. He doesn't show emotion that often.

[Gaijin]

Say what you want to say about the Pegasus crew being nazis or whatever, their pilots sure looked a lot more professional in the the chaos of the potential dogfight and looked to have the drop on the noob pilots of BSG.  Sure, Starbuck and Apollo weren't there to help, but what can 2 pilots do against a whole squadron?  Sometimes listening to Kat and Hot Dog gets annoying and to hear the real pilots of the Pegasus focus in on a job was a good relief as opposed to the "YEEEHAAA, JESTER's DEAD!" thing.

359313[/snapback]

Well, Kat and Hot Dog are for the most part civilians thrown into combat with very little training. They knew how to fly, they taught them how to fly fighters and said..."you're in the army now!!"

[Wes]

Also, what the hell's the rank structure in this joint? They got a colonel as an XO and a commander as a CO - Tigh should be running the ship!? For awhile I was just thinking that Tigh was a Marine or something, but then Adama's son would outrank him as a Capt! It's looney toones up there in space, I tell ya!

[Dobber]

Some things I don't get about your guys' reasoning:

Adama sacrificing Starbuck?  More than anything, they'd think she's a Cyclon and capture her.  It's happened with the last two.  Then Adama, as the head military officer again, will have full authority to do with her what he wants.  Full flight status may be unlikely for awhile, but she won't be shot or abused.

Cain justified in her treatment of civilians + prisoner Cylon?  If you think that, you're missing the biggest point of the show.  Roslin especially has been pushing the fact that most people define a civilization as "better" than others is not just their skill and tech, but their morals and how they fair in extreme circumstances.  Even the original show hit on this alot, it just wasn't such an uphill battle in their own fleet as it is for the remake.  This is why many gravitate towards her, especially Lee Adama with his "schoolboy" (forgive the pun) mentality coincides with that ideology.  Cain, on the other had, threw those higher morals away like they were in-laws - about as quickly as possible.  While if she didn't have that whole kill-whomever-defies-me mentality she would be livable, but even then she'd be an anchor that ties the fleet to the colonies when they really need to get out of there.  Don't judge Roslin as too vicious - remember, while it is obvious that Zerek wants her dead she hasn't done him in yet.  Although Zerek's the emo kid of the show he's not as dangerous as Cain.  The worst Roslin's been doing is a little too much weed.

The fleet running to hide?  It would be a nice extra, but they, like the colonial fleet in the original, think of Earth as their last great hope.  They'd just show up, catch up on about 3000+ years of history, and Earth will help them open a can of whoopass on the Cylons.  And why not?  The colonies' planetary defenses were capable of defending against invasion(well presumably, until a Cylon got into the network via Baltar's pants) so why shouldn't Earth be on par, if not better off than them? Whether or not they are or not we'd probably never find out.

Adamlyn?  Rosama?  Now you guys are just getting bored.  Find some good video games to play or something.   Although truth be told, it seems they took the grandfather-like Adama for the original and made Adama and Roslin for this remake.

Who here doesn't think Tigh is total poo?  It seems like many of you don't think too highly of him, but it's obvious that, from that flashback episode and what we've seen of him, is that the last Cylon war was not too kind to him and he's been using alcohol as a crutch, but there's been many real-world men traumatized in the same fashion.  I can see why Adama still thinks he's useful - he's got a feel to how the cylons move, like when the cylons boarded he knew where they would hit.  Whether it's natural or because he's 1 of 2 vets from the last war doesn't really matter.  He's also pretty good with people, he got vital info from Fist and he got those engines for the home-made Viper.  Again, whether or not it's natural or because he's a drunk doesn't really matter.

I hope we start to see more of Adama and his past because to me he's more of a blank slate than anyone important on the show.  He doesn't show emotion that often.

359403[/snapback]

Have you watched the deleted scenes for season 2 yet? Scattered and Valley of Darkness have more of the flashbacks including a chilling retellying from Tigh about his first encounter with the Cylons. Really cool stuff, I also would like to see/hear more.

Chris

[Dobber]

The Rank structure for Fleet personel seem to go like this:

O-1 Lt. Junior Grade (Boomer)

O-2 Lt. (Starbuck)

O-3 Cpt. (Apollo)

O-4 Major (Adama was this rank in one of the flashbacks)

O-5 Col. (Tigh)

O-6 Cmdr. (Adama)

O-7-? Admirals

The Colonial Marines may have a Rank structure like we have in the US.

Chris

[kalvasflam]

Roslin especially has been pushing the fact that most people define a civilization as "better" than others is not just their skill and tech, but their morals and how they fair in extreme circumstances. 

I like this... moral superiority and fairness. I'm morally superior and fair, therefore I'm entitled to win a war. Funny stuff. Sure, the humans are "better" than Cylons, but let's see who has been kicking whose ass so far. Morally superior or winning.... hmmm, let's see what's more important.

The fleet running to hide?  It would be a nice extra, but they, like the colonial fleet in the original, think of Earth as their last great hope.  They'd just show up, catch up on about 3000+ years of history, and Earth will help them open a can of whoopass on the Cylons.  And why not?  The colonies' planetary defenses were capable of defending against invasion(well presumably, until a Cylon got into the network via Baltar's pants) so why shouldn't Earth be on par, if not better off than them? Whether or not they are or not we'd probably never find out.

Again, let's base our strategy on hope, not real facts. Let's hope Earth can help us and is more technologically advanced. One colony is better than the original twelve. Let's hope the cylons don't follow us and wipe out Earth too. Boy, I'd love to be the military commander on the other side those who use hope as a strategy. I'd have fun kicking their ass all day long. Hey, you know, I know someone who was basing their strategy on hope, there was this little corporal by the name of Hitler, heard of him?

[Greyryder]

They seem to have a really weird combination of standard and naval ranking. the rank of comander seems to take the place of naval captain's rank, and got slipped in above colonel.

I was really starting to like Tigh, before his wife showed up. He'd climbed out of the bottle, and really seemed to be waking up to strengths. He's been a mess, ever since his wife was found. She irritates the piss out of me anyway, since all she seems to care about her social standing.

[Gaijin]

They seem to have a really weird combination of standard and naval ranking. the rank of comander seems to take the place of naval captain's rank, and got slipped in above colonel.

I was really starting to like Tigh, before his wife showed up. He'd climbed out of the bottle, and really seemed to be waking up to strengths. He's been a mess, ever since his wife was found. She irritates the piss out of me anyway, since all she seems to care about her social standing.

359435[/snapback]

I think she's got a higher agenda.

[OverTechJunkie]

Maybe they're going by the Cobra army ranking system. Cobra Commander reigns supreme. hahahahahaha... I know that was bad, but it's the best I can do. SORRY.

[DeathHammer]

Adama sacrificing Starbuck?  More than anything, they'd think she's a Cyclon and capture her.  It's happened with the last two.  Then Adama, as the head military officer again, will have full authority to do with her what he wants.  Full flight status may be unlikely for awhile, but she won't be shot or abused.

Cain justified in her treatment of civilians + prisoner Cylon?  If you think that, you're missing the biggest point of the show.  Roslin especially has been pushing the fact that most people define a civilization as "better" than others is not just their skill and tech, but their morals and how they fair in extreme circumstances.

How exactly do you think that would go over with the Pegasus crew? Some hotshot rebel pilot caps their funloving lesbian admiral in the head, then assuming the Pegasus Marines all shoot like the Puerto Ricans in Commando, Starbuck survives to get 30 days in the hole. After which shes leading combat missions again and the Pegasus Vipers are expected to back her up and obey her orders? And if Starbuck in a Viper dogfighting with Cylon Raiders, you think a Pegasus Viper who accidently gets her in the crosshairs won't pull the trigger? And if Fisk, the Pegasus XO is on the Galactica as planned, theres no assurance that the Pegasus third in command won't just start shooting at the Galactica because it would be pretty clear Starbuck was told to cap Cain.

The Pegasus troops are not retreads and conscripts like the Galacticas. These are top of the line professional soldiers. While a Kat and Hot Dog might shrug off Starbuck shooting an admiral in the head, I have my doubts the dedicated Pegasus crew would do the same. And say what you like about Cain, but shes kept her crew alive thus far and taken the battle to the enemy, there is no reason for her people not to trust her. Starbuck shooting Cain is a suicide run, either short or long term. I'm guess Apollo is sent to ensure Starbuck isn't gunned down on the spot after the deed is done, but if it didn't matter, why doesn't Adama send Lee to do it? Hes on the Pegasus already. He is a Captain, he has access to Cain, hes clearly Starbucks XO now. In You Can't Go Home Again, it was clear - Adama didn't want to leave without Starbuck but he could do it if he had to, he couldn't however leave his son. He sacrifices the child to him that means the least.

Cain is living the dream and nightmare of anyone in command. On one hand she has no support assets. No backup until Galactica and no one else to lean on if things go rough. There is no one else to blame if things go wrong. On the other hand, she has complete tactical control. She has the freedom to do what she wants and answer to no one, thats the kind of flexibility that wins you wars. Or do you think the probable bloated political handwringing by the prewar Colonial Fleet had nothing to do with the tenous peace and incompetence that got them all killed in the first place?

If Cain was in command of the entire prewar Colonial Fleet, do you think she would have sat back and let a sniveling rat like Baltar corrupt a very lax military network? She would have let the Cylons ignore the Armistice annual peace meetings without response? No Cain would have taken the entire fleet and hunted the toasters down. Its a mistake to think a society or a military doesn't need a person like Cain. Someone always has to do the dirty work, the unpleasant crap that one wants to do but has to be done. Its easy for a young budding politician like Billy or a ruthless reporter like Biers to criticize the dirty work that needs to be done but the very ability to criticize it only comes from the work having been done in the first place. Roslin IS a schoolteacher. Easy for her to trump morality from behind the safety of a desk. But she hasn't been very moral has she? Divided the fleet, left behind the non FTL bearing ships in the miniseries, played her political hand so badly that shes now got a Cylon induced doctor as her VP.

Sorry dude, in my opinion, you don't get the point. People like Roslin and Adama AND Cain are necessary for a functioning society. Because they want to kill each other doesn't mean they aren't needed at all, its just that the individuals don't think they need each other. And morality isn't top on the list when you've got less than 50 thousand people left. You definitely don't register on my Cylon Detector, but no offense man, you are making the needle jump on the Liberal Motion Tracker.

[Wes]

How exactly do you think that would go over with the Pegasus crew? Some hotshot rebel pilot caps their funloving lesbian admiral in the head, then assuming the Pegasus Marines all shoot like the Puerto Ricans in Commando, Starbuck survives to get 30 days in the hole. After which shes leading combat missions again and the Pegasus Vipers are expected to back her up and obey her orders? And if Starbuck in a Viper dogfighting with Cylon Raiders, you think a Pegasus Viper who accidently gets her in the crosshairs won't pull the trigger? And if Fisk, the Pegasus XO is on the Galactica as planned, theres no assurance that the Pegasus third in command won't just start shooting at the Galactica because it would be pretty clear Starbuck was told to cap Cain.

"Funloving lesbian" - now there's a phase for yah! But anyways, alot of what I'm basing this asumption off of is Fisk and the fact that the last time someone shot a CO on that show they threw her in the brig. Now Fisk had the courtesy to warn Tigh that Cain was a little unstable - or maybe so stable that a bullet awaited any attempt to derail her goal, whichever you prefer. Seeing as the bridge crew was there when it happened (the one guy she shot) I believe they'd be happy to see her go too. So seeing as Fisk is against Cain's actions, I don't see him taking out Adama or anyone else. The coup will work perfectly fine with the bridge crew on board - yes maybe most of the pilots like her, but they aren't running the ship.

Now, about Starbuck, like I said, even when they found the one Cylon because she did whatever, they didn't kill them outright, so why would they Starbuck? They might think she's a sleeper too. And if Cain was able to get Tirol and Helo off the Galactica, why can't Adama get Starbuck off the Pegasus? Because her people are more hardcore? Ha, if anything, that would make them more likely to flow the orders of the highest guy giving them. I never though she'd be allowed anywhere near that ship afterwards (again, remember the last time someone shot a CO) much less CAG, but Adama would probably do like he wanted in the first place, avoid integration of the crews. It would give the Pegasus some space. And then she wouldn't be flying for months, not just 30 days, although when you're starring down a seemingly infinite army, flight duty might seem like punishment. And why not have Lee do it? Look at the previews for the next episode, he's already trying to talk Starbuck out of it, or at least questioning it. The only time he shot someone was because the guy was about to kill Cally, who already had a round in her. He didn't shoot Tigh, when Lee decided it was a good time to point a gun at him. Lee will make sure she doesn't get killed, whether or not he would help her walk right out of there is questionable.

And do I expect the Pegasus crew to just jump on board? Yes. Look what happened when Roslin was jailed and that marshall law stuff went down - Adama got up, said it's time to end this sh!t, and it ended. If they were able to follow Cain knowing and seeing what she did, there isn't much reason to believe that they'd get all choked up to see her take a round.

Sorry dude, in my opinion, you don't get the point. People like Roslin and Adama AND Cain are necessary for a functioning society. Because they want to kill each other doesn't mean they aren't needed at all, its just that the individuals don't think they need each other. And morality isn't top on the list when you've got less than 50 thousand people left. You definitely don't register on my Cylon Detector, but no offense man, you are making the needle jump on the Liberal Motion Tracker.

Liberal? HAHAHA awesome! And I consider myself strong conservative. But don't tell me you don't see the flow of the show here - the Cylons arguing over why they had the "right" to kill their "parents", the colonials trying to rebuild their previous form of goverment and society, they both are trying to do more than just survive than justifies their right to exist. I'm not saying I agree with it but that's the preception that I get from watching the show, that's what motivates them. Let's say that the human's win, cylons are gone, what's to say that they're not going to be the architechs of their own destruction again? Let's say the Cylons win, humans are gone, what's to stop them from factioning and destroying each other like the humans? I see both sides asking themselves these questions.

Now Cain seems to have the f-them-up mentality, which is perfectly good in a number of programs, doesn't seem to make sense in this one. While the colonial fleet is scraping to get by, she seems to think that she can find supplies whenever and that people are expendable. That doesn't add up when their civilization is a couple of nukes away from extinction. If she left 15 ships to the wind, what's really to stop her from setting 15 times that many if she thinks a bigger, more important target is out there, and that's why she needs to go. She's going to get innocent people killed in the future, and in the present she's going to kill Adama. If you subscribe to the survival-theory she should go, if you subscribe to the maintain-morality-theory she needs to go.

Hey, you know, I know someone who was basing their strategy on hope, there was this little corporal by the name of Hitler, heard of him?

Hilter was on the Eastern Front WW1, so yah, he was kicking butt, and WW2, he used treaties and lightning-fast invasions to expand his empire, so who does that sound like? No more of this Nazi-Hitler crap, this isn't some HS political blog. For now on, if you're quoting real-world events in this thread, it must be in BC times and something obscure, so we have to look it up and therefore be smarter for the experience. But again, when Adama got up there and yelled "I KNOW WHERE EARTH IS AND WE'LL GO THERE AND EVERYTHING WILL BE SUPER" that's the impression that I got, that when they got to Earth they believe everything will be super.

EDIT(forgot) - Then again, I could be dead wrong - Adama has been harbering hatred for Starbuck and wants Lee to make sure she dies, Fisk is really a Cylon and is moving to take over the Galactica for himself (but I'm holding out for it being Gaeta, he's got Cylon written all over his goofy face) and Roslin ODs on weed leaving Baltar as prez, but hey, I'm going off of my own perception of the story they're trying to tell.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Wes

[Wes]

Have you watched the deleted scenes for season 2 yet? Scattered and Valley of Darkness have more of the flashbacks including a chilling retellying from Tigh about his first encounter with the Cylons. Really cool stuff, I also would like to see/hear more.

Now I haven't, I caught them on TV, but that's good to know. I'll Netflix them all when season 2 is done, something to hold me over.

[DeathHammer]

^

Theres a huge difference between a commanding officer shooting a subordinate for failing to obey a combat order ( something known and accepted by soldiers throughout the history of war) than having a pilot walk into the Pegasus CIC and gunning down Cain.

Even the show says it, theres a level on context to each situation that doesn't fit on paper. On paper, the Galactica Marines shot civilians over COFFEE. Obviously its not that black and white when you look at the entire situation. But on paper to a stranger to the situation, it looks unreasonable. No one knows exactly happened in context to Cain shooting her first XO. No one knows for sure what happened when she ordered the families of those resisting in her fleet to be shot. Her first XO could have been incompetent or a coward. He could have been a Cylon for all we know. The Pegasus could have been on its last legs supply wise or needed new FTLs themselves to survive before they pillaged their fleet. The context isnt clear.

The show raises issues and questions that people won't agree on. Fine, we don't agree, its one of the interesting aspects of the show. But if you think Starbucks orders are anything but a suicide mission, then I'd take a guess to say you probably don't have much exposure to the law enforcement/para military/military culture. Not that having it versus not makes your opinion any less or more than anyone elses, I'm just saying what Cain did to her XO in a combat situation and what Adama is asking Starbuck to do to Cain are two whole different ballgames.

[Major Johnathan]

I'll try to express this fairly, one of my fundamental dislikes is how they portray military personnel generally. Think of how Roslin is made the Joan of Arc for being all civic conscious and touchy feely. Adama is shown as a 'good' military man for being soft and forgiving with his crew and frankly babying his favorites. Starbuck and Apollo are bathed in glory for being anti-military in a sense while serving in the military (like Hawkeye and BJ from MASH...), they flaunt their independence, they obey orders that they agree with and pout and rebel at the ones they don't like (try that in any real military) and openly question anything their superiors say.

Consider Tigh, who's all about military protocol, saluting, following orders, by the book etc. He's portrayed as a pitiful drunkard, an idiot when his useless cartoon wife shows up and an all around hard ass always out to ruin Starbuck's fun. Thus most fans really like to hate him.

Enter Pegasus and Cain: A 'real' military ship, professional, they got their sh*t together etc. So of course they turn out to be a ship of gang raping, civilian slaughtering space thugs with a commanding officer to the right of Mussolini.

To me, that's not too subtle in what Moore thinks of the military. This show is way more 'Platoon' where most in uniform are thugs or tyrants and only the few that rebel from within are virtuous. As opposed to a 'Saving Private Ryan' where most soldiers are portrayed as fairly honorable and brave and selfless. Most of the military people I've known and read about in real life were highly professional, often brave and sacrifice on all sorts of levels without complaint. You just don't get that feeling from BSG. Definately more like Platoon. That's what rubs me the wrong way.

Still, there's a lot that's good, the acting is generally quite good, the special effects are the best so far in Sci-Fi TV show, the mechanical Cylons are cool, especially the Raiders, the whole tone and feel is good and I even like the background music. I just wish Moore would get a better understanding of the military culture than just watching Apocalypse Now or Platoon.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Major Johnathan

[Dobber]

If you listen to his pod casts, you can DEFINATELY tell where he stands politically. That may have something to do with it. I Do agree with you MJ, on how they portray the Military. I LOVE this show, but it doesn't mean there aren't things that do rub me wrong, and that is one of them.

At least Adama DID recognize that Cain was correct about him being too lax.

Chris

[bsu legato]

Major Johnathan, your rather niave tirade misses one crucial fact that throws your whole analysis on its ear: For all parties concerned, its literally the end of the world. All semblence of structure (outside of what little remains of humanity comprising the fleet) has broken down, and while you may dislike nearly all the Galactica crew for what you percieve as flagrant disregard for discipline, they are doing so in what can only be described as extra-ordinary circumstances.

That, and your imaginary "perfect Colonial fleet" translates to really, really f*cking boring television. I know you'd like to see all conflict externalized to a basic Galactica vs Cylons level, so that there's no squabbling between the principles (and while we're at it, those pesky civilians should STFU about "Earth" already) so they can concentrate on Cylon ass-kicking, but the resulting stories would be so dripping in fanwank that it would likely defy description. In short, I thank the Lords of Kobol you're not in a postion to write any televison that I'll ever see.

Edited January 12, 2006 by bsu legato

[big F]

It is plain to see this has become a bit heated.

If you were in a society that for all intents is doomed, and you were in charge with nobody to answer to you could change laws (what few you could still enforce) make new laws and generally do what ever your moral concience says you can. That is what both Roslin, Cain and Adama have done in their own way, all of them are "guilty" of some moralistic law breaking and actual laws being broken, but all have done this with the good of all at the back of their minds. The decsions they made were true to their own veiw of the world and their conception of the situation they are/were in. So in Essence they were all right at the time.

As far as who should die etc, we all know if they follow the original story then at some point Pegasus will have to go, if that means in a big Cylon encrusted fire ball or dissapearing off on it own on some noble cause so be it. If Cain is in charge or not does it matter they will be gone.

My point is that we all have our own persective view of the situation. Putting our views together give us the whole picture.

Cant remember who metioned Biers but isnt she a Cylon anyway.

Edited January 12, 2006 by big F

[kalvasflam]

Hey, you know, I know someone who was basing their strategy on hope, there was this little corporal by the name of Hitler, heard of him?

Hilter was on the Eastern Front WW1, so yah, he was kicking butt, and WW2, he used treaties and lightning-fast invasions to expand his empire, so who does that sound like?

359532[/snapback]

Dumb blind luck.

Yeah, thanks to his commanders, he did very well, but you know what, he still lost at the end didn't he? The little corporal might have been lucky at first, but by 1941, his strategy started sliding toward hope, and the incompetence of his enemies, which were primarily Russians.

Some prime examples:

He believed ol Herman about bombing the Brits to submission. Let's hope we can demoralize the Brits enough.

He believed he was right in overruling his generals on the drive to Moscow, hey, I know better, let's change directions, go after Stalingrad.

The 6th army, you'll hold out until I tell you, no retreat, no surrender.... oh... oops, that didn't work out.

His strategies were based on folly and hope as the war progressed. Don't try to turn facts into political BS. Hitler was just easy to pick on because he is a recent example, and is full of easy mistakes. There are also examples with Imperial Japan, Napolean, Cornwall, the Kwarazam Shah, etc, etc.

In the same vein, Adama and Roslin are out of their minds to only a certain extent, they are hoping that Earth can be found, hoping that Earth can help them against the Cylons, and worst of all, hoping that the Cylons will eventually get tired and leave them alone. Hope is a poor strategy.

Deathhammer is absolutely right, you need both sets and Cain in a complete society, there are places for all of them. If BSG is supposed to in some way resemble reality, then it needs to show that fighting a war is a dirty business. It's not antiseptic nintendo crap you see on TV. Cain hasn't gone off her rockers, she is doing what she thinks is right, which is fighting a war against an overwhelming enemy. Doing what she can with what she's got.

[bsu legato]

I missed the part where Cain could function as a part of society. We've seen that she'd only strip mine it in order to feed her war machine. If, that is, there even is any hope in defeating the vastly superior number of Cylons in the first place. And before anybody mentions it, let me say now that if somebody finds a magic "Cylon off-button" that lets them win, I will puke.

[kalvasflam]

I missed the part where Cain could function as a part of society. We've seen that she'd only strip mine it in order to feed her war machine. If, that is, there even is any hope in defeating the vastly superior number of Cylons in the first place. And before anybody mentions it, let me say now that if somebody finds a magic "Cylon off-button" that lets them win, I will puke.

359755[/snapback]

Cain's personality is that of fighting a war, Deathhammer gave a better explanation on why her type is needed. Consider WWII, you had a guy like Patton, who if you look at it through the lens of modern media is a complete a-hole. But guess what, you sure need someone like that fighting your wars. This is why Cain is integral to society, she is the one doing the fighting, and seemingly a pretty good job of it to. As for feeding her war machine, you know what... in case you didn't notice, the cylons are still trying to kill them, so there is some necessity to feeding her war machine. There is still a war, whether or not Adama and company believes it.

Cain is fighting that war, she is fighting from a limited point of view that she has to continue to try to kill the Cylons. What she lacks is proper direction on what the long term strategy should be. She does not have a larger picture in mind. (the one she gave to Starbuck is BS) You can say this because she didn't think about what happens in the long term after she is done stripping away all the parts and has no more supply source. But she definitely has her place, if she didn't, she wouldn't have gotten the admiral's rank in the first place.

Roslyn and Adama (more Roslyn) is equally at fault, I don't think anywhere in the show has Roslyn tried to explain to Cain the plan, the fact that Cain doesn't accept Roslyn as a legitimate leader doesn't help much, but that's almost as much Roslyn's fault. Because you look at Roslyn the entire first season and most of second season, she is a religious nutjob. So, from Cain's point of view, you have an ex secretary of education running around playing president, and all she doesn't have a long term plan either, reads the ship logs and finds Adama and Roslyn has been at odds, and even Adama doesn't respect her. Not difficult to see why Cain pays no respect to Roslyn at all.

[bsu legato]

Patton never shot any civilians and left the others for dead. Or did they omit that part in the movie?

You guys don't seem to understand that, if Cain were to continue on her merry way, there wouldn't be any society left. Even if she managed to win, there would just be her and a couple petty officers left alive at the end. As one of the civilians who she'd either draft, execute, or otherwise strand in space, I'd rather take my chances with Adama.

Edited January 12, 2006 by bsu legato

[kalvasflam]

You guys don't seem to understand that, if Cain were to continue on her merry way, there wouldn't be any society left. Even if she managed to win, there would just be her and a couple petty officers left alive at the end. As one of the civilians who she'd either draft, execute, or otherwise strand in space, I'd rather take my chances with Adama.

359795[/snapback]

No, you don't understand, we're not saying Cain is the only part of society, we're saying she needs to be included, because she does add value. You tend not to see things from her point of view because it's just so easy to villify her. OMG, she killed civilians, she must be evil. (OMG, the U.S. dropped an A-bomb and killed civilians, they must be evil, OMG, the allies fire bombed Dresden and killed all those civilians, they must be evil) So, that's that. Yep, as it is, Cain is out of control, but that doesn't mean Adama and Roslyn are any less out of control with what they're doing.

[bsu legato]

No, you don't understand, we're not saying Cain is the only part of society, we're saying she needs to be included, because she does add value.  You tend not to see things from her point of view because it's just so easy to villify her.  OMG, she killed civilians, she must be evil.  (OMG, the U.S. dropped an A-bomb and killed civilians, they must be evil, OMG, the allies fire bombed Dresden and killed all those civilians, they must be evil)  So, that's that.  Yep, as it is, Cain is out of control, but that doesn't mean Adama and Roslyn are any less out of control with what they're doing.

359816[/snapback]

Uh...your analogy is a little silly, since the US didn't drop any atom bombs on its own population. So yeah...killing your own people is somewhat undesirable in a military leader.

[Gaijin]

I'll try to express this fairly, one of my fundamental dislikes is how they portray military personnel generally. Think of how Roslin is made the Joan of Arc for being all civic conscious and touchy feely. Adama is shown as a 'good' military man for being soft and forgiving with his crew and frankly babying his favorites. Starbuck and Apollo are bathed in glory for being anti-military in a sense while serving in the military (like Hawkeye and BJ from MASH...),  they flaunt their independence, they obey orders that they agree with and pout and rebel at the ones they don't like (try that in any real military) and openly question anything their superiors say.

  Consider Tigh, who's all about military protocol, saluting, following orders, by the book etc. He's portrayed as a pitiful drunkard, an idiot when his useless cartoon wife shows up and an all around hard ass always out to ruin Starbuck's fun. Thus most fans really like to hate him.

Enter Pegasus and Cain: A 'real' military ship, professional, they got their sh*t together etc. So of course they turn out to be a ship of gang raping, civilian slaughtering space thugs with a commanding officer to the right of Mussolini.

  To me, that's  not too subtle in what Moore thinks of the military. This show is way more 'Platoon' where most in uniform are thugs or tyrants and only the few that rebel from within are virtuous. As opposed to a 'Saving Private Ryan' where most soldiers are portrayed as fairly honorable and brave and selfless. Most of the military people I've known and read about in real life were highly professional, often brave and sacrifice on all sorts of levels without complaint. You just don't get that feeling from BSG. Definately more like Platoon. That's what rubs me the wrong way.

  Still, there's a lot that's good, the acting is generally quite good, the special effects are the best so far in Sci-Fi TV show, the mechanical Cylons are cool, especially the Raiders, the whole tone and feel is good and I even like the background music. I just wish Moore would get a better understanding of the military culture than just watching Apocalypse Now or Platoon.

359619[/snapback]

I think you're taking it too personally. While it hardly is the shining example of the military, in fact, the whole point of the goodness behind it is the fact that the characters are so deeply flawed. I identify the same sentiments with the Shield. Excellent acting and stories, though it portrays my line of work in a rather bad light, making law enforcement look bad. Do I agree with how we're portrayed? No. Do I think it represents us as a whole? Nope...it's television entertainment and it's done well and for that I give it props. With BSG, it's the same thing..this story is about arguably the worst of the fleet...as the creators mentioned, this isn't the best ship in the fleet, it's the old one about to retire, with probably all the crappiest personnel manning it, thrust into the role of being humanity's final hope. That said, I've heard nothing but positive reactions from military personnel on BSG unlike some fellow law enforcement people who refuse to watch the Shield for it's portrayal of how we work (fiction based in reality but, taken to the worst extremes).

I disagree in that the show shows militray personnel in a bad light. They are the worst of the bunch doing the best they can given the circumstances. In fact, I work with people in my job who ARE like some of those characters , on both BSG, and the Shield, so it's not too far a stretch to say that what the public sees and what goes on behind the scenes are 2 different things. Apollo and Starbuck's actions are child's play compared to things I've seen in "real life". The Shield almost echoes what I've seen people do, though it is "amped" up a bit. What the show is trying to say is that these people are wrong many times, just like the things I've seen in a day to day shift. It can be argued that both military and police put their lives on the line when it counts and civilians will never truly understand what that means, only using TV and movies to guess as to what honor and service means defending or protecting the people that either hate you, or are looking only at the things we do wrong as a whole instead of the things we do correctly.

All in all, if it truly bothers you so much on a personal level, there are other shows that have no real flawed people in them (and are the most boring shows in the world)...may I suggest Desperate Housewives, those Star Trek shows, or the Brady Bunch? You are doing a dis-service to yourself if it bothers you so much to continue posting every day on how much a fictional show does things "wrong". I think we get it.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Gaijin

[Zor Primus]

I'd like to take a break from this well versed socio-political discussion and geek out a bit and ask the following question.

Who else is dying for an all out battle?

I mean really we are due for something big when the two Battlestars attack the Cylon Ressurection ship. I want nothing more then at least 15 minutes of space combat, an insane amount of Vipers and Raiders on screen that my eyes pop out. The ship to ship side of the fight should dwarf anything that we have seen now which has basically been clips of one ship firing a volley at another before a fold. Anything less and I call Adama having small hands and Cain is the second coming of Anatole Leonard!

Edited January 12, 2006 by Zor Primus

[Dobber]

Chris

[Wes]

I'd like to take a break from this well versed socio-political discussion and geek out a bit and ask the following question.

Who else is dying for an all out battle?

I mean really we are due for something big when the two Battlestars attack the Cylon Ressurection ship. I want nothing more then at least 15 minutes of space combat, an insane amount of Vipers and Raiders on screen that my eyes pop out. The ship to ship side of the fight should dwarf anything that we have seen now which has basically been clips of one ship firing a volley at another before a fold. Anything less and I call Adama having small hands and Cain is the second coming of Anatole Leonard! 

359845[/snapback]

Yes, OF COURSE!! I want to see lead flying all over the place, massive explosions, the Battlestars moving in sync based on offensive capabilities and defensive strengths. And I want to see transforming mecha show up in this show, alot like in Macross, eye-targeting lasers and all, and the next time someone gives Roslin crap I want to see her choke him/her out. And it's been since the miniseries since Adama killed a cylon with his bare hands, so he needs to kill like a number 6 unit, but this time with a spoon. Yeah, a spoon fight, because not many people can kill someone with just a spoon, and you are eternally a badass for doing it!

Yeah, there's a lot I'd LIKE to see happen in this show, but chances are it isn't going down. They're trying to make it more character-driven and most of us aren't liking the characters, so hopefully they will increase the action.

[Major Johnathan]

Major Johnathan, your rather niave tirade misses one crucial fact that throws your whole analysis on its ear: For all parties concerned, its literally the end of the world. All semblence of structure (outside of what little remains of humanity comprising the fleet) has broken down, and while you may dislike nearly all the Galactica crew for what you percieve as flagrant disregard for discipline, they are doing so in what can only be described as extra-ordinary circumstances.

That, and your imaginary "perfect Colonial fleet" translates to really, really f*cking boring television. I know you'd like to see all conflict externalized to a basic Galactica vs Cylons level, so that there's no squabbling between the principles (and while we're at it, those pesky civilians should STFU about "Earth" already) so they can concentrate on Cylon ass-kicking, but the resulting stories would be so dripping in fanwank that it would likely defy description. In short, I thank the Lords of Kobol you're not in a postion to write any televison that I'll ever see.

359691[/snapback]

What Imaginary 'perfect colonial fleet' did I mention? True I would like the occaisional space battle, it'd be nice if we got to see more than 5 seconds of Cylons per episode. I doubt most fans would say they DON'T want more action/battles/Cylons. I suppose it would cut down on the rape/gang rape scenes, Baltar babbling with Six at his villa, Stabuck boinking someone else or Tigh's adorable wife, the show would really suck with less of that.

The belief that a ship's crew practically melts down when faced with desperate circumstances or even certain death is wrong from nearly every real-world example I can think of. The oppostie is what happens, they tend to rise to the occaision, behave even more bravely, selflessly and professionally.

It's hard not to come away from BSG with a depressing, cynical view of humanity. Which is why, as I've said, I'm rooting for the mechanical Cylons.

Sorry for another 'naive tirade'. I do my best, but I'll never be as awesome as bsu. Speaking of fanwank, do you really thank the Lords of Kobol?

Essentially,BSG needs more Southern Cross, whatever the hell that means.

[EXO]

I suppose it would cut down on the rape/gang rape scenes, Baltar babbling with Six at his villa, Stabuck boinking someone else or Tigh's adorable wife, the show would really suck with less of that.

360028[/snapback]

Yeah there's way too much of that. Gang rapes in every episode, and the whole 3 minute scene that Baltar had in the villa this episode. And that ho Starbuck sleeping with everyone. If Starbuck was a guy I doubt anyone would be complaining.

And when did the crew NOT rise up to the occassion? It seems to me that they always go above and beyond the call of duty, but then that's too unrealistic too and would warrant a complaint. And BTW comparing the threat of robots that look like people to "real life situation" is a great argument too. Seriously, you probably be happier watching the History channel, on second thought, you'd probably bitch about that too

[Major Johnathan]

Ok, not EVERY episode. But there's Callie(?) almost raped by Zaruck's guy, Six's gang rape story, Starbuck's Gyno-rape-via-Cylon and Boomer's double team attempted rape. So for a show with such few episodes so far, I consider that a whole lotta rape'in. Plus it looks like Roslin is set to rape Adama next. And there's Baltar raping himself frequently...

Then there's Starbuck's fling with the dead Adama brother, the well explained fling with Baltar (???), her fling with the guy on Caprica who she can't get out of her mind and her continuous googly-eye flirting with Apollo (before Baltar and after the Caprica guy) So, yeah I think that's pretty loose.

I'd feel bad for Apollo, but he's such a priss.

The History Channel does tend to be Nazi-obsessed...

I don't compare anything to robots, they're just 'the enemy'. The enemy can be anyone, how humans react in certain situations is my point.

I consider the fleet being split by Roslin or Starbuck and Apollo doing their own thing or ship commanders plotting each other's assaination as 'not rising to the occaision', those seem more wreckless and selfish.

[bsu legato]

Seriously, you probably be happier watching the History channel, on second thought, you'd probably bitch about that too 

360054[/snapback]

Don't waste your time, dude. In fact, I've found this thread much easier to stomach since I put MJ on "ignore." I highly recommend it.

[EXO]

Ok, not EVERY episode. But there's Callie(?) almost raped by Zaruck's guy, Six's gang rape story, Starbuck's Gyno-rape-via-Cylon and Boomer's double team attempted rape. So for a show with such few episodes so far, I consider that a whole lotta rape'in. Plus it looks like Roslin is set to rape Adama next. And there's Baltar raping himself frequently...

  Then there's Starbuck's fling with the dead Adama brother, the well explained fling with Baltar (???), her fling with the guy on Caprica who she can't get out of her mind and her continuous googly-eye flirting with Apollo (before Baltar and after the Caprica guy) So, yeah I think that's pretty loose.

  I'd feel bad for Apollo, but he's such a priss.

  The History Channel does tend to be Nazi-obsessed...

  I don't compare anything to robots, they're just 'the enemy'. The enemy can be anyone, how humans react in certain situations is my point.

  I consider the fleet being split by Roslin or Starbuck and Apollo doing their own thing or ship commanders plotting each other's assaination as 'not rising to the occaision', those seem more wreckless and selfish.

360067[/snapback]

Six and Boomer are suppose to show what Cain's crew does to their female prisoner, and Callie? What the hell do expect was suppos to happen when you shove a woman into a men's prison? But Starbuck? You're just reaching there.

And what's the problem with her having lovers? Like I said, if that was a male Starbuck you wouldnt even mention it. What about Baltar chasing every skirt there is? If there was a priss I'd say it was you MJ.

Like Bsu said, let's see you get a job writing a TV series and if by some miracle you do, let's see how long it lasts. I'd say they'd kick you out the door to get rid of that high pitch whining that you can't seem to quit doing.

[Macross73]

After tonight this discussion will probably

get even MORE interesting. Stay Tuned