Valkyrie Missile sizes

[Shawn]

Just browsing some Macross auctions, and this picture just stood out tonight.
Just take a long second and really look at the size of those UUM-7 "micro missiles" box mounts.
Those missile boxes are the size of a freaking 4-door sedan...and there can be 4 under the wings.
Imagine standing next to one of those.
Maybe someone could make one of those out of styofoam/cardboard for the next sdcon, would be funny to see it in 1-1 scale

[Seto Kaiba]

Ah, yeah... the UUM-7 missile pod is pretty big.  

The size chart in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1 makes it out to be approximately 5m long and a bit over a meter in diameter.  Two of 'em side by side would be pretty much exactly the size of a large-ish four-door sedan.  (The Chrysler 300 is 5.044m x 1.908m.)  The missiles themselves are about 40cm in diameter and about 1.25m long, making them around the diameter of a 80L office garbage can but nearly twice as tall.

[JB0]

They really don't seem that big without a scale reference. It's one thing to read they're a meter wide, it's another to see them with the same-scale pilot figure next to them.

[kajnrig]

There are two sets of 5 missiles per launcher, right? Front and back? Or the ones visible are all?

[Seto Kaiba]

33 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

There are two sets of 5 missiles per launcher, right? Front and back? Or the ones visible are all?

The UUM-7 micro-missile pod contains 15 Bifors HMM-01 micro-missiles racked in three sets of five, with all fifteen facing forward.

[kajnrig]

Even better.

[Knight26]

We had a discussion similar to this at one of the earliest MWCons (2002, or 2003 IIRC).  I pointed out that Macross missiles, especially the Micro-Missiles, are chonky boys when compared to real world missiles, shorter for sure, but seriously wide.  For a space use missile that makes sense, Aerodynamics are not a real concern, but the need for additional fuel and a far larger warhead mandate a larger missile.  A modern Sidwinder is 12.7 cm in diameter 3.02m in length and an AMRAAM 17.7cm 3.6m in length.  That makes the "Micro-missile" 2-3x the diameter of modern A-A missiles, but at a 1/3 of the length.  The dimensions are closer to those of a dumb bomb with none of the aerodynamics.

  

[Seto Kaiba]

On 11/13/2021 at 8:40 PM, Knight26 said:

We had a discussion similar to this at one of the earliest MWCons (2002, or 2003 IIRC).  I pointed out that Macross missiles, especially the Micro-Missiles, are chonky boys when compared to real world missiles, shorter for sure, but seriously wide.  For a space use missile that makes sense, Aerodynamics are not a real concern, but the need for additional fuel and a far larger warhead mandate a larger missile.  A modern Sidwinder is 12.7 cm in diameter 3.02m in length and an AMRAAM 17.7cm 3.6m in length.  That makes the "Micro-missile" 2-3x the diameter of modern A-A missiles, but at a 1/3 of the length.  The dimensions are closer to those of a dumb bomb with none of the aerodynamics.

Interestingly, there's not really a good explanation for why the missiles in Macross are so thick.

The one time detailed missile specs were actually given, the atmospheric performance of the missile cited (AMM-1A Arrow) was broadly comparable to its real world counterparts at the time the series was made (e.g. the AIM-7F Sparrow).  They're much faster in space, but otherwise the only real differences given are the warhead filler is MUCH more energetic in the OTM-based missiles and many of them have multiple guidance systems including active radar homing, infrared, and optical contrast systems working in tandem.

(Macross Chronicle later added some stuff about the missiles needing powerful ECCM to counteract active stealth.)

Edited November 15, 2021 by Seto Kaiba

[kajnrig]

44 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(Macross Chronicle later added

Which IIRC isn't explicitly a canon publication, correct?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

Which IIRC isn't explicitly a canon publication, correct?

Chronicle is the official encyclopedia. 

You may be thinking of Variable Fighter Master File, which self-disclaims as not "official setting" material.

[kajnrig]

Ah yes, that's the one.

[Knight26]

The sensor packages of the HMM-01 and even the RMS-01 (nukes) was always a curiosity to me.  I always assumed that the larger missiles were active radar but that the micros were either IR or laser guided, possibly passive radar.  Packing multiple sensors into a single weapon is, problematic, at best.  Modern missiles use one primary sensor and then a proximity fuse, anything more than that and you invite additional sources of failure.

Onto the warheads, space based missiles would likely carry additional ablative material in order to facilitate a shockwave in vacuum, without filling space with additional high speed shrapnel.  A plasma based warhead, fueled by onboard oxidizer, could prove effective in a short range, without creating additional space debris.  That's not to say that there wouldn't be something akin to modern blast fragmentation bands in the warhead, but and additional umph always helps.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, Knight26 said:

The sensor packages of the HMM-01 and even the RMS-01 (nukes) was always a curiosity to me.  I always assumed that the larger missiles were active radar but that the micros were either IR or laser guided, possibly passive radar.  Packing multiple sensors into a single weapon is, problematic, at best.  Modern missiles use one primary sensor and then a proximity fuse, anything more than that and you invite additional sources of failure.

According to Macross Chronicle, the reason the larger and longer-ranged missiles have multiple guidance systems is because radar guidance really took it on the chin when OTM introduced active stealth technology to fighters.  Radar-guided missiles lost a lot of their reliability when aircraft gained the ability to use targeted destructive interference to make themselves effectively invisible to radar systems.  Hence the need for either powerful ECCM on the missiles themselves and/or multiple guidance systems to prevent any single type of countermeasure from diverting the missile.  Active stealth also led to engagements becoming much closer-ranged, fought with infrared, laser, and TV-guided missiles that were not vulnerable to active stealth measures.

(Prior to active stealth becoming a part of this explanation, "powerful ECM" was mentioned in its place.)

 

12 hours ago, Knight26 said:

Onto the warheads, space based missiles would likely carry additional ablative material in order to facilitate a shockwave in vacuum, without filling space with additional high speed shrapnel.  A plasma based warhead, fueled by onboard oxidizer, could prove effective in a short range, without creating additional space debris.  That's not to say that there wouldn't be something akin to modern blast fragmentation bands in the warhead, but and additional umph always helps.

On the rare occasion the missiles have been talked about in detail, they're usually described as blast fragmentation warheads (though there are mentions of flechettes in some warheads, apparently to beef up armor penetration).  One version of the AMM-1 is mentioned in Master File as having a Munroe effect (HEAT) warhead instead.