[Amazon] The Wheel of Time

[technoblue]

7 hours ago, Keith said:

Watched the first 2.5 eps, not as good as "The Witcher", "LOTR", "Netflix Castlevania", or even "Hercules" & "Xena." It has nothing to do with the presence/lack of whatever the male/female magic dynamic is supposed to be, I just didn't find it particularly fun, dramatic or exciting.

I at least expect a fantasy show to be as exciting as the old D&D cartoon.

I agree with you about Amazon's show not being quite up to the level of Jackson's 'The Lord of the Rings' or Netflix's 'The Witcher' series. In particular, if we take the first Jackson movie of the LotR trilogy and the first season of 'The Witcher' and compare it to this first WoT season, I still think the other two adaptations come out on top. That's even with the time skips that are part of the first season of 'The Witcher' and which confused some ardent fans. I didn't have any problem following that plot device, myself.

The others in your first list? Those are interesting comparisons but I'm not sure I agree that I would consider them high fantasy. IMO, Castlevania is an example of the supernatural genre and it's a video game adaptation that was well received. Hercules and Xena are mythic fantasy adaptations. These too are successful broadcast television series, both sharing well-known mythological tropes and both running for 6 seasons.

The D&D cartoon...I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Is this a joke? Sure the 1980s cartoon has a strong cult following from nostalgic fans today (I'm one too), but ultimately it wasn't given a chance and is considered to have hit well before its time. I mean, look at how popular the isekai genre is in Japan nowadays. Anyway, the D&D cartoon was cancelled after a short run. Viewership was down, TSR was in a rut because the game itself was getting attacked in the press, and ultimately the show was a kids show and so it leaned toward age-appropriate silly moments. In the 1980s it was a controversial thing---not so much now.

Today, Amazon's WoT is also a controversial thing and everyone has an opinion about it. It will be interesting to see how people look back on it 30-odd years later (since we are bringing up and comparing old cartoons). With regard to how the showrunner is dealing with gender versus sex, that doesn't bother me at all, although I do wish more of what the books discussed had made it into the first season of the show. I don't think these things need to be mutually exclusive. That's all I have to add on that point.

[Thom]

Finished it today, and I think I'm benefiting from not having finished the series, and it having been decades now since I first picked up the Wheel of Time in the Little Professor book store near Kearney NJ back in 1990. Oh god, so looong ago...😭

I don't remember that much about it without some clues and hints but, for what it is, I'm liking it. Part of that is because I went into it knowing/assuming it was going to be different from the source material. Do I wish they had slaved themselves to the books and history behind it all? Yes! There is never anything wrong with doing so and the only real reason to make changes would be because someone wanted to make a change to it. In which case, they shouldn't have been in the room to begin with. Any changes made should be done under duress and with the express intent of still fulfilling the original scene/plot that has been changed.

As to the powers, it is stated esp in the finale how touching the saidin would drive a man insane. In 3000 years however, I can see some of that information being lost from the social conscious, either with the complete loss of information to war and privation, or because it was edited out deliberately. They don't need to tell why a man would go insane from touching it, just that he would, in order to keep men from reaching for it at all. Which the Reds would take full advantage of.

For the scene with Logain and the Amaryln Seat, by that point he had been 'gentled.' We know that screws with a person's mind, eventually driving them insane anyway, so I can see him being out of it. Also, those guards are Aes Sedai, and fully trained warriors. It would have been good to show them using the One Power to keep him restrained rather than manacles, but even as not I think they still would have had him in submission pretty quickly. Against the One Power, pure muscle strength is nothing.

So no, it's not perfect, but I'll take it as an 'alt-universe' telling of the story and one that is not that bad in that respect. As Technoblu said, it is good to have more high fantasy on the small screen that, taken on its own, is still pretty good. I'll be looking for season 2 when it comes out.

[levzloi]

15 hours ago, Keith said:

I at least expect a fantasy show to be as exciting as the old D&D cartoon.

[Thom]

Also about the bonding, when Moiraine was believed to be dead in the books, Lan had to depart for the White Tower immediately, compelled by the conditioning of the Bond to return when his Aes Sedai died. In the show, that one Warder shows none of that compulsion. In fact, I think his little story could have been ignored entirely if that could have given the final confrontation some more time to fill out.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Thom

[levzloi]

4 hours ago, Thom said:

Finished it today, and I think I'm benefiting from not having finished the series, and it having been decades now since I first picked up the Wheel of Time in the Little Professor book store near Kearney NJ back in 1990. Oh god, so looong ago...😭

I'm lucky, I first picked it up in 2004 and only had to wait 9 years for the series to finish. 

4 hours ago, Thom said:

I don't remember that much about it without some clues and hints but, for what it is, I'm liking it. Part of that is because I went into it knowing/assuming it was going to be different from the source material. Do I wish they had slaved themselves to the books and history behind it all? Yes! There is never anything wrong with doing so and the only real reason to make changes would be because someone wanted to make a change to it. In which case, they shouldn't have been in the room to begin with. Any changes made should be done under duress and with the express intent of still fulfilling the original scene/plot that has been changed.

THANK YOU!!!  You're free to like it or not, but I agree, the show-runner shouldn't make modifying the story his priority. 

4 hours ago, Thom said:

As to the powers, it is stated esp in the finale how touching the saidin would drive a man insane. In 3000 years however, I can see some of that information being lost from the social conscious, either with the complete loss of information to war and privation, or because it was edited out deliberately. They don't need to tell why a man would go insane from touching it, just that he would, in order to keep men from reaching for it at all. Which the Reds would take full advantage of.

Spoiler

 I really hated that Age of Legends scene.  They radically changed it from what is in the books.  The Dark Once was loose, and the war of power had been going on for hundreds of years at this point, and the forces of light were losing.  Lews Therin was the leader of all Aes Saidai, and the women didn't object to the attack on the bore because they knew it would lead to driving the men insane, they simply favored a different plan that Lews Therin felt was untenable.  He made a pragmatic/desperate attack that sealed the Dark One and the Forsaken in his prison for 3000 years, and unfortunately lead to Saidin being corrupted.  Which led to the breaking of the world.  The show made it seem like Lews Therin wanted to go poke the Dark One for fun in order to prove how awesome he was.

4 hours ago, Thom said:

For the scene with Logain and the Amaryln Seat, by that point he had been 'gentled.' We know that screws with a person's mind, eventually driving them insane anyway, so I can see him being out of it. Also, those guards are Aes Sedai, and fully trained warriors. It would have been good to show them using the One Power to keep him restrained rather than manacles, but even as not I think they still would have had him in submission pretty quickly. Against the One Power, pure muscle strength is nothing.

I suppose the guards could be Aes Saidai, but they were wearing different uniforms and I just checked, they were not wearing rings.  But like I said, an all female guard force is a minor quibble, even if it's not book accurate, or real world accurate.  I think is simply indicative of the bent the writers are going for, rather than being a major problem.

4 hours ago, Thom said:

Also about the bonding, when Moiraine was believed to be dead in the books, Lan had to depart for the White Tower immediately, compelled by the conditioning of the Bond to return when his Aes Sedai died. In the show, that one Warder shows none of that compulsion. In fact, I think his little story could have been ignored entirely if that could have given the final confrontation some more time to fill out.

Spoiler

Actually (every geeks favorite word), Moiraine had arranged to have her bond passed to Myrelle in the event of her demise.  This was not a normal arrangement and doing it without Lan's permission was considered nearly as wrong as bonding a man without his permission.  In the Books as soon as Moiraine goes through the Terangrel her bond is severed and is transfered to Myrelle.  He still suffers the death wish like state of a Warder who has lost his Aes Seidai, but he is compelled to seek out Myrelle in Salidar.  In the show, Stepin and Karine do not have this arrangement.  he simply suffered the death wish and kills himself before he can be rebonded and "saved".  Personally I think it would have been better to have him go berserk and attack Logain's men until he was overwlemed and killed.  I think the same point would have been made, and we could have had more time for other character development.  But that way Nyneave doesn't get to show how special she is by AOE healing everybody (impossible in the books)  and Logain doesn't get to say how brightly she shines with the power (also impossible in the books).  sigh

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by levzloi

[Thom]

@levzloi

Spoiler

I think there was little point to the age of legend scene. It didn't really add anything to the story, other than to put a face on Lews Therin and to show that it had been a high society compared to what they have now. Would have much preferred the original book opening if they needed to show the past at all. And yes, at that time he was not the Dragon Reborn, he was just the Dragon, as that was the first time he had been spun out by the Wheel.

Again, I liked it, but do wish they had stuck to the base material more.

9 hours ago, levzloi said:

  Hide contents

Actually (every geeks favorite word), Moiraine had arranged to have her bond passed to Myrelle in the event of her demise.  This was not a normal arrangement and doing it without Lan's permission was considered nearly as wrong as bonding a man without his permission.  In the Books as soon as Moiraine goes through the Terangrel her bond is severed and is transfered to Myrelle.  He still suffers the death wish like state of a Warder who has lost his Aes Seidai, but he is compelled to seek out Myrelle in Salidar.  In the show, Stepin and Karine do not have this arrangement.  he simply suffered the death wish and kills himself before he can be rebonded and "saved".  Personally I think it would have been better to have him go berserk and attack Logain's men until he was overwlemed and killed.  I think the same point would have been made, and we could have had more time for other character development.  But that way Nyneave doesn't get to show how special she is by AOE healing everybody (impossible in the books)  and Logain doesn't get to say how brightly she shines with the power (also impossible in the books).  sigh

 

Ah, thank you! It had been so long, I had forgotten that detail. And I like your idea better about Stepin. Much more compelling, with a touch more action and explosive drama. And they could have had the other Warders expecting it. Oh well.

[Dynaman]

Sounds like they made a LOT of changes for the worse.  I've not watched past the first episode and may or may not do so.  Those changes sound bad, worse than last two seasons of GoT bad.

The books also dragged quite a bit in the middle of the story, the author was adding in a bunch of stuff (like GoT did).  Sadly I think it was the original author's death and bringing in a new author to finish it that saved the ending.  The new author dropped or concluded a bunch of needless side stories and got things back to the core of the story.  

[Thom]

1 hour ago, Dynaman said:

Sounds like they made a LOT of changes for the worse.  I've not watched past the first episode and may or may not do so.  Those changes sound bad, worse than last two seasons of GoT bad.

The books also dragged quite a bit in the middle of the story, the author was adding in a bunch of stuff (like GoT did).  Sadly I think it was the original author's death and bringing in a new author to finish it that saved the ending.  The new author dropped or concluded a bunch of needless side stories and got things back to the core of the story.  

It does get better after the first episode. That was a little on the rough side.

I don't think the changes are GoT-level bad, but it just enforces that though one may be familiar with the book version, expecting it to be the same could lead to confusion. Perhaps disappointment too, unfortunately. Again, it's been so long since I've read read the books that I wasn't thrown for a loop at some of the changes that were made. Taken on its own, I thought it was pretty good.

And yes, about midway through the books is when I dropped out. Too much being tossed in, but I've heard from others too that it starts to get back to the main story again. So, who knows, I may try again. Maybe I should start buying the books again, just to be ready for when I do...🤔

Edited December 31, 2021 by Thom

[levzloi]

12 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Sounds like they made a LOT of changes for the worse.  I've not watched past the first episode and may or may not do so.  Those changes sound bad, worse than last two seasons of GoT bad.

The books also dragged quite a bit in the middle of the story, the author was adding in a bunch of stuff (like GoT did).  Sadly I think it was the original author's death and bringing in a new author to finish it that saved the ending.  The new author dropped or concluded a bunch of needless side stories and got things back to the core of the story.  

 

11 hours ago, Thom said:

It does get better after the first episode. That was a little on the rough side.

I don't think the changes are GoT-level bad, but it just enforces that though one may be familiar with the book version, expecting it to be the same could lead to confusion. Perhaps disappointment too, unfortunately. Again, it's been so long since I've read read the books that I wasn't thrown for a loop at some of the changes that were made. Taken on its own, I thought it was pretty good.

And yes, about midway through the books is when I dropped out. Too much being tossed in, but I've heard from others too that it starts to get back to the main story again. So, who knows, I may try again. Maybe I should start buying the books again, just to be ready for when I do...🤔

As far as the books go, 1-3 are somewhat formulaic hero fantasy, although he does reverse a number of tropes.  They're good books, but Robert Jordan really hits his stride in 4-6 and they are anything but formulaic.  Some people complain that the slowdown starts in 6, but the finale more than makes up for it in my opinion.  7-8 are a definite slowdown and suffer from plot bloat, but each has it's great moments.  9-10 are where the plot bloat is evident, they were supposed to be one book, as they happen simultaneously.  Now, I'm a massive fan of what happens in the end of 9, that event has huge implications for the series, but it's kind of short, and getting to it is a bit frustrating.  10 is the other character's story-lines before the event at the end of 9, and then their reactions to it.  Aside from Mat featuring in each of these books (he's always fun to read), it's not super exciting.  11 was Robert Jordan's final book that he completed himself, and honestly he does a great job getting things moving in the right direction after struggling the last few books.  I consider it a really good book, and it's a shame it was his last. 

Robert Jordan died before he could finish, but he had already written the final chapter of the series, as well as about 200 pages of different scenes.  He also dictated and left notes on most major plot points, how things were to happen etc.  Harriet, (Jordan's widow and editor of the Wheel of Time) selected Brandon Sanderson to complete the series.  As a superfan himself, he was torn about his ability to do the series justice, but decided that he was the least bad person to finish The Wheel of Time.  There is a change in tone, as Brandon Sanderson did not attempt to copy Robert Jordan's style, and he admits that he never really found Mat's voice.  So 12-14 are generally accepted by fans as great books, or at least "as good as we could hope for under the circumstances".  I think they're great, and that Sanderson did an admirable job wrapping things up. 

So if you want to try again, read 1-6, if you can't make it through reading 7-10, listen to them on audiobook while driving or doing housework at 1.5 speed, then finish off by reading 11-14.  I don't think you'll regret it.  I hope you both and anyone else reading this gives the books a shot, or another shot as it may be.  They're not perfect, and Robert Jordan had his flaws as a writer, but when it comes to worldbuilding he was a titan.  There's a reason it's one of the best selling series of all time and that many fans are upset at Rafe for apparently wanting to rewrite it.   

Edited January 1, 2022 by levzloi

[TangledThorns]

Finished the first season. It has good action but it's not as compelling as THE WITCHER as its pretty hard to beat the charisma of it's main star.

That being said PRIME needs way more content!!

 

[Keith]

On 1/18/2022 at 7:54 AM, TangledThorns said:

That being said PRIME needs way more content!!

 

If only they hadn't cancellrd " The Tick"

[Thom]

Witcher is definitely the better of the two. Watering down the first season by including more story lines from other books, and fudging about with 'who is the Dragon Reborn,' when all who read the books knew from almost the first few pages of the first book who that was, wasn't the best move, IMO. There was no real mystery who that was and the books worked just fine, so the same could have been done here. This should have been more Rand-centric than it was.

[sh9000]

Official Trailer.

[TangledThorns]

Totally forgot about this series, lol. First season was OK. Not sure I can convince my wife to watch the second season with me.

[Thom]

I'm in for it. The first season was good and if this next is as good as, then I'll be fine.