Bigwest will do a global release of the MACROSS series... Games and Toys too!

[Rhubarbarian]

Man, this latest round of announcements was such word salad, I genuinely thought they were trying their hand at animated projects as well (god knows the live-action stuff hasn't been going anywhere since Tobey Maguire still had star power and was potentially attached to the project). Maybe I just read too much into them resurrecting the Robotech II brand for the latest round of toys.

[Raikkonen]

20 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They don't really have an incentive to improve because, in the absence of new material, their customer base has shrunk to just a few thousand fanatical fans who'll buy anything and the low expected volumes make for a poor ROI so the quantity and quality of licensees has diminished as well.  Macross fans can, and do, just buy direct from Japan to get that higher quality merchandise regardless of HG's opinion... so nobody really has a reason to care.

You are right here. Never saw it like this, but how long can these few thousand desperate fans keep them going? 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh, they absolutely use the SDF merch to maintain those trademarks.  It's why most of their recent merch is now carrying the Macross logo alongside the Robotech one.

My word, desperation has no limits. 

[azrael]

18 minutes ago, Raikkonen said:

You are right here. Never saw it like this, but how long can these few thousand desperate fans keep them going?

North America is not the only market.

As I've said, I know for a fact I am not the target demographic for current Macross. I'm fine and happy with that. My expectation is for the franchise to bring in new fans to, as the business-side of me would like, keep that cash-flow going with new fandom and not rely on nostalgia and a stagnant idea base.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, azrael said:

North America is not the only market.

As I've said, I know for a fact I am not the target demographic for current Macross. I'm fine and happy with that. My expectation is for the franchise to bring in new fans to, as the business-side of me would like, keep that cash-flow going with new fandom and not rely on nostalgia and a stagnant idea base.

This.  So very much this.

Macross is going to continue to move forward.  It's going to develop its stories in new and interesting ways to adapt to the changing times like it's been doing for decades already.  Even the misplaced outrage over this latest announcement from HG is just silly because almost all of the characters and designs in question have been irrelevant to on a galactic stage for half a century of in-universe time and even the ones that haven't are headed that way now that they're pushing 80.  OK, yeah the original's a classic but there's so MUCH more to Macross than just that.

[Dressykamila1]

Does this mean that even Macross Frontier will no longer be usable? why is HG allowed to do this? Will the new series from sunrise have to be in a different timeline and universe and they can't reminisce about past heroes?

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, Dressykamila1 said:

Does this mean that even Macross Frontier will no longer be usable? why is HG allowed to do this? Will the new series from sunrise have to be in a different timeline and universe and they can't reminisce about past heroes?

Go back and read the previous posts, it means the opposite of what you thought.

[Shawn]

So it appears the upcoming Macross game has a JP/EN version, where the EN version is removing DYRL Minmei references, and I would guess any aircraft from that series
https://www.gematsu.com/2023/08/macross-shooting-insight-physical-edition-includes-macross-do-you-remember-love-content

EN art vs JP art

 

So if the agreement between BW/HG was that the shows...TV and DYRL(the 41 designs) to HG, everything else to BW, then just how does BW release anything?
If a video game is potentially censoring DYRL Minmei + Valks, then what about:

II: has SDF-1
Zero: Has Focker
Plus: Has SDF-1
7: has Max and Milia + VF-1s & Exedol
Frontier: VF-1 on the school, episode 13 has sdf-1 and global
Delta: VF-1s, Max at 70 years old

If the original 41 designs, and any variation of them are not allowed internationally, then what exactly is the agreement for?
How does anything get released internationally in its original form?

I guess we'll find out as time passes and we see what is/is not allowed.
Did this have any impact on the upcoming Tenjin book and art within it? (It has a couple VF-1s, and Max at 70)
I guess we won't know until we see the December release vs the Comic con early special signed ones he did.

[Master Dex]

It's specifically the character designs from SDFM and DYRL, so them as they looked in those. Max and Milia from M7 are fine, as is any version of an OG in a later thing that looks different enough. I'm not sure VF-1 and SDF-1 count.. Plus is already getting English releases with the latter, and the other shows are slated for release eventually. There might be reason to question certain shots perhaps but for the most part it's pretty workable.

[Shawn]

Revisiting the past, it seems the videos have an explicit exception, but any MERCHANDISE with the 41 designs are out, thus the exclusion from the game

https://robotech.com/news/big-west-co.-ltd.-studio-nue-inc.-and-harmony-gold-u.s.a.-announce-expansive-agreement-for-the-future-of-macross-and-robotech-worldwide

The landmark agreement immediately permits worldwide distribution of most of the Macross films and television sequels worldwide, and also confirms that Big West will not oppose the Japanese release of an anticipated upcoming live-action Robotech film.  

The agreement also recognizes Harmony Gold’s longstanding exclusive license with Tatsunoko for the use of the 41 Macross characters and mecha in the Robotech television series and related merchandise throughout the world excluding Japan.

 

The 41
1    VF-1S FIGHTER
2    VF-1S BATTROID
3    VF-1S GERWALK
4    VF-1J FIGHTER
5    VF-1J BATTROID
6    VF-1J GERWALK
7    VF-1D FIGHTER
8    VF-1D BATTROID
9    VF-1D GERWALK
10    VF-1A FIGHTER
11    VF-1A BATTROID
12    VF-1A GERWALK
13    ARMORED VALKYRIE
14    SPARTAN
15    REGULT
16    GLAUG
17    SDF-1 BATTLE SHIP
18    SDF-1
19    PHALANX
20    DEFENDER
21    TOMAHAWK
22    QUEADLUUN-RAU
23    NOUSJADEUL-GER
24    MONSTER
25    QUEADOL-MAGDOMILLA
26    TOUGOU-GUN Emblem
27    ZENTRAEDI Emblem
28    Misa Hayase
29    Hikaru ichijo 1
30    Hikaru ichijo 2
31    Lynn Minmay 1
32    Lynn Minmay 2
33    Lynn Minmay 3
34    Lynn Minmay 4
35    Claudia La Salle
36    CAPTAIN Gloval
37    Maximilian Jeunius
38    Roy Focker
39    Milia Fallyuna Jenius
40    Bullitie
41    Exsedol Folmo

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, Shawn said:

So it appears the upcoming Macross game has a JP/EN version, where the EN version is removing DYRL Minmei references, and I would guess any aircraft from that series
https://www.gematsu.com/2023/08/macross-shooting-insight-physical-edition-includes-macross-do-you-remember-love-content

EN art vs JP art

 

So if the agreement between BW/HG was that the shows...TV and DYRL(the 41 designs) to HG, everything else to BW, then just how does BW release anything?
If a video game is potentially censoring DYRL Minmei + Valks, then what about:

 

I think we may be missing a vital piece of info: who owns the distribution rights for DYRL?  This may not be as simple as BW & HG, and there may be a third party (or parties) who hold the international distribution rights for DYRL that are blocking that content (either actively or BW is preemptively removing certain content to not leave themselves open to future litigation).

 

Of course, that is all speculation, but it may explain why certain SDFM/DYRL content (E.g. the non-DYRL versions of Max) is still able to be released internationally, as—if memory serves—the 41 designs are for the TV versions, and not the DYRL versions. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

51 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

It's specifically the character designs from SDFM and DYRL, so them as they looked in those. Max and Milia from M7 are fine, as is any version of an OG in a later thing that looks different enough. I'm not sure VF-1 and SDF-1 count.. Plus is already getting English releases with the latter, and the other shows are slated for release eventually. There might be reason to question certain shots perhaps but for the most part it's pretty workable.

Which is pretty much what we'd concluded earlier... that this restriction on the first Macross's design works could only really apply to the original appearances of those characters and mecha that were within the scope of Harmony Gold's rights-under-license.  Aged up versions of the characters that appeared later seem to be just fine, which you'd expect as they're legally distinct from the original designs and outside the scope of HG's license.

The real test would be whether Big West could get away with using Flash Back 2012 versions of the first Macross's characters in the game, a new VF-1 variant as long as it has some distinctive paintjob not reminiscent of the originals and/or a new head, or whether the DYRL? version of the Macross-class used in subsequent Macross titles is exempt.

Spoiler

Basically, the question being whether something like Hikaru in his Flash Back 2012 pilot suit, the VF-1EX from Macross Delta, or the Macross Extra from Macross E would be exempt from this limitation.

 

14 minutes ago, sketchley said:

I think we may be missing a vital piece of info: who owns the distribution rights for DYRL?  This may not be as simple as BW & HG, and there may be a third party (or parties) who hold the international distribution rights for DYRL that are blocking that content (either actively or BW is preemptively removing certain content to not leave themselves open to future litigation).

Distribution rights wouldn't be the issue here... this is a video game, which is considered merchandise because the original is a film work.  

We know Harmony Gold has had the merchandising rights to DYRL? since 2001.  They picked them up from Tatsunoko at that time to close a loophole in their attempt to block toy imports because their exclusive rights-under-license originally only extended to the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series.  Had they not done so, toy importers would have been able to continue importing DYRL?-branded VF-1 toys with impunity.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[Shawn]

There was no mention of 'Derivative' in the agreements? I thought in one of the court summaries I saw that, but could be very wrong.

(e.g. old max, vf-1ex, queadluun-rhea, etc?)

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, Shawn said:

There was no mention of 'Derivative' in the agreements? I thought in one of the court summaries I saw that, but could be very wrong.

(e.g. old max, vf-1ex, queadluun-rhea, etc?)

The main decisions the Tokyo courts handed down in the Big West v. Tatsunoko copyright confirmation proceedings from the early 2000s essentially upheld the status quo ante...

• Big West and Studio Nue own the Intellectual Property of Macross's original series and therefore the franchise, the right to produce and exploit derivative works, etc.
• Tatsunoko Production owns the copyright on the physical animation of the original Macross series that it paid to produce and the rights delegated to it as payment for same (the rest-of-world distribution and merchandising for the original TV series that they licensed to Harmony Gold USA).

They didn't touch on the merchandising rights to Macross: Do You Remember Love? that Tatsunoko had likewise received as payment from Big West in exchange for bankrolling the animation production for the movie, which are presumably what's in play here WRT the removal of the DYRL? characters from this video game (merchandise) since they licensed those rights to Harmony Gold in 2001.

There was one other quasi-related filing and decision that touched on the subject of sequels, but that was Tatsunoko's claim that they were owed royalties from Macross's sequels because of their involvement in the original's production process.  That claim was rejected based on the prior finding that Big West and Studio Nue jointly owned the IP, and thus all the rights pertaining to future exploitation of the property.

 

The million dollar question regarding those newer designs based on older ones would have to be how transformative the update is.  Older Max is clearly visually different... but is the VF-1EX with its different paintjob?  Or the Queadluun-Rhea?  It's very difficult to say.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Seto Kaiba

[jvmacross]

OK, now I'm concerned that my Limited Edition Macross - Shooting Insight games (which includes the DYRL content) may get blocked by HG from being sold by several of the Japanese retailers selling to non-Japanese customers...the biggest one being Amazon.Jp.....would HG have the cajones to call out Amazon on this?

And if BW is being so careful as to placate HG by removing Minmay from the "International" game promo art....how could they possibly have missed the sale of the "limited edition" Macross -Shooting Insight with the DYRL content to non-Japanese customers?

I hope that this means some kind of breakthrough has occurred in terms of the sale of DYRL merch....and not just some oversight on BW's part or perhaps it's just a game of "who blinks first"...LOL

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, jvmacross said:

OK, now I'm concerned that my Limited Edition Macross - Shooting Insight games (which includes the DYRL content) may get blocked by HG from being sold by several of the Japanese retailers selling to non-Japanese customers...the biggest one being Amazon.Jp.....would HG have the cajones to call out Amazon on this?

And if BW is being so careful as to placate HG by removing Minmay from the "International" game promo art....how could they possibly have missed the sale of the "limited edition" Macross -Shooting Insight with the DYRL content to non-Japanese customers?

I hope that this means some kind of breakthrough has occurred in terms of the sale of DYRL merch....and not just some oversight on BW's part or perhaps it's just a game of "who blinks first"...LOL

's probably just the same loophole that has existed ever since export sellers in Japan first realized there's a market for Macross stuff in the west... and that Big West itself has been exploiting for a few years now.

Harmony Gold's exclusive license is only valid outside of Japan.  They have no standing in the Japanese domestic market, so as long as seller's in Japan Harmony Gold can't do a damn thing about those sellers carrying out transactions with buyers outside Japan.  It would be up to Big West to contact the seller and insist the product not be made available for export.  If there were some kind of agreement that Big West would halt export sales, I'd have expected to see a crackdown in other areas like home video already... but sellers based in Japan are still cheerfully offering JDM editions of new and old Macross media for direct export sale as we speak.

I'd guess, based on that, that this is just a corner case where the expected volume of direct importers is too low for anyone to really be bothered with since the expectation where games are concerned is that folks'll get it from their FLGS or the console eshop.

[Shawn]

I remember a couple years ago I could not buy certain Macross items from Amazon JP-it said 'due to licensing restrictions we are not allowed to sell to you'

I can't remember what it applied to...was it games or toys? LOL
 

[treatment]

24 minutes ago, Shawn said:

I remember a couple years ago I could not buy certain Macross items from Amazon JP-it said 'due to licensing restrictions we are not allowed to sell to you'

I can't remember what it applied to...was it games or toys? LOL
 

It's has gotten quite random at amz-jp, in at least the last 5 or so years, and it's not just macross-specific toys/games/videos/etc.

In my case, it'll usually be some Bandai-branded toys (like certain Soul of Chogokins, etc). 

Sometimes, they'll block some Arcadia toys, too.

No rhyme nor reason at all.

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by treatment

[TheLoneWolf]

On 8/24/2023 at 10:17 PM, Shawn said:

There was no mention of 'Derivative' in the agreements? I thought in one of the court summaries I saw that, but could be very wrong.

(e.g. old max, vf-1ex, queadluun-rhea, etc?)

The "derivative" wording came from Article 5 of Harmony Gold's agreement with Tatsunoko Production. While the word is never defined in the agreement, it's used in the context of creating adaptions of The Super Dimension Fortress Macross, not sequels and such.

Quote

The Licensor [Tatsunoko Production], as the exclusive author and owner of all worldwide copyrights, moral rights and rights of publication in and to the underlying series, grants to the Licensee [Harmony Gold] exploitation of the copyrights in accordance with the provisions in this Agreement whereby the Licensee is entitled to . . . adapt and prepare derivative works based on . . . the underlying series . . . . (emphasis added)

So yeah, that's where it all came from 😀

[Raikkonen]

So... we will continue to not see DX VF-1 in Tamashi Europe and USA distribution lists... This, is, tragic. 

[Seto Kaiba]

32 minutes ago, Raikkonen said:

So... we will continue to not see DX VF-1 in Tamashi Europe and USA distribution lists... This, is, tragic. 

For Europe, it remains to be seen... HG lost a lot of its trademarks in the EU to challenges from Big West, so it may be possible there.

It's a hard "No" for US fans though.

[Raikkonen]

13 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

For Europe, it remains to be seen... HG lost a lot of its trademarks in the EU to challenges from Big West, so it may be possible there.

It's a hard "No" for US fans though.

Been watching the Tamashi Europe regularly for years, and I've yet to see any VF-1. Everything else, yes. 

[kajnrig]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

For Europe, it remains to be seen... HG lost a lot of its trademarks in the EU to challenges from Big West, so it may be possible there.

IIRC, wasn't that the one that was ultimately dropped by all parties during the appeals process? (Due to the new Sony-brokered agreement.) IIRC, the initial ruling was in Big West's favor, but HG appealed, and somewhere within that appeal process both companies approached the judge to drop the litigation. I don't remember whether that nullified the initial judgement as well or just put an end to the appeal.

[SSK]

As a French guy, I followed each step of Big West european IP claim since nearly the beginning on the EUIPO website. The worldwide agreement was announced a couple of time after Harmony Gold ultimate appeal. So I believe all of these are related. I'd also say that was Big West initial goal, and probably the only way to gain something in the US market since I heard IP claims are way more difficult there. They had already won in the UK and on the verge of winning in Europe, so it probably gave them enough weight to negotiate.

Anyway, I don't believe we'll get more stuff than you, and certainly not the prohibited one. Actually it's quite the opposite, we're not really Big West nor Bandai top priority for anything related to Macross, despite the worldwide labelled toys are avalaible for preorder.

Edited August 28, 2023 by SSK

[Bub]