HG and BW reach an agreement (Link included)

[tekering]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yes, but he also doesn't say anywhere that it was disowned, disavowed, or "stricken from canon". 

It's just a question of semantics.  It was written and produced as a Macross sequel, then subsequently relegated to "a parallel world," and "not one that followed the same storyline as the others."  By choosing to ignore it in all further Macross works, doesn't that mean it was stricken from canon? 

1 hour ago, Keith said:

You think money would still be thrown into these productions if they weren't profitable?

I think you misunderstood me.  "Poorly-received" and "profitable" are mutually-exclusive... otherwise Batman and Robin could not exist. 

Macross Delta was poorly received because it disappointed fans, both in Japan and abroad.  That's a purely subjective statement, based on my own reading and discussions with other Japanese and English-speaking fans.  My opinion has no bearing on the financial success of the series (or its merchandising, which is another issue entirely).

Financial success can be measured objectively; perception and reception cannot.

2 hours ago, Keith said:

I agree, there's way too much personal hate that is passed off as fact.

There's also way too much opinion misinterpreted as fact. 

[Keith]

1 hour ago, tekering said:

It's just a question of semantics.  It was written and produced as a Macross sequel, then subsequently relegated to "a parallel world," and "not one that followed the same storyline as the others."  By choosing to ignore it in all further Macross works, doesn't that mean it was stricken from canon? 

I think you misunderstood me.  "Poorly-received" and "profitable" are mutually-exclusive... otherwise Batman and Robin could not exist. 

Macross Delta was poorly received because it disappointed fans, both in Japan and abroad.  That's a purely subjective statement, based on my own reading and discussions with other Japanese and English-speaking fans.  My opinion has no bearing on the financial success of the series (or its merchandising, which is another issue entirely).

Financial success can be measured objectively; perception and reception cannot.

There's also way too much opinion misinterpreted as fact. 

You seem to be Gori Gori grasping, but that's cool bra.

Batman & Robin would be akin to Macross II, it exists, but that branch was not continued. The definition of "poorly received." Delta on the other hand 5 years after release is still actively supported.

[DYRL VF-1S]

8 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

So , i checked walmart today and didn't see any Macross products.

How long is this going to take to get Macross in stores?

Love this man. Well played. 

[Bolt]

9 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

So , i checked walmart today and didn't see any Macross products.

How long is this going to take to get Macross in stores?

Surely you are joking. 

 

8 hours ago, renegadeleader1 said:

I don't want to sound like a downer here, but I don't think Macross is going to be recieved as well as it's expected to be in the west. The lack of access to or knowledge of Macross over the years for the average anime fan has expectations being something they're not.

 

People are expecting some type of epic space opera that rivals the Gundam in scale with giant galaxy spanning space battles featuring cool transforming robot fighters. Deep down we all know that's only partially the case because the other part is Big West using the franchise as an advertising vehicle to sell music. Music that people in the west likely won't give a damn about if the reception of things like the AKB0048 anime is any indication.

 

I don't think things like Mac7's Basara scream "LISTEN TO MY SONG!!!" while flying around in a fighter controlled by a guitar for 40+ episodes, Flashback glorified extended music video, or Delta's all girl pop idol group doing dance choreography in time with their fighters while fireworks and glowsticks shoot off everywhere are going to be well recieved.

 

Outside of MacII and Plus which already say western releases that just leaves Frontier and Zero of which I think only Frontier will be well received as that is closest to what the preconceived notion of what Macross should be is. Meanwhile Zero on the other hand has it's own issues. People are going to complain about the blending of cgi and cell not working and I don't think people are going to take to the psuedo-religious mythological imagery all that well.

IMO, the Macross franchise is far better than most of the anime crap streaming the air waves on this side of the globe. Yes, apparently that's what's selling over here.  And Macross has been baked for a Japanese audience for decades. So i don't expect it to be some massive hit over here. But i do expect it to be watched. And i also expect the the VF's to turn heads.  Also. As we know, Macross has successfully been selling music and live concerts to it's domestic audience. (Even now). I don't expect Macross music to top the charts here. A few tracks will filter into the western anime playlists, tho. 
 

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, tekering said:

It's just a question of semantics.  It was written and produced as a Macross sequel, then subsequently relegated to "a parallel world," and "not one that followed the same storyline as the others."  By choosing to ignore it in all further Macross works, doesn't that mean it was stricken from canon? 

No, it's not a question of semantics... it's a distinction that the people who rag on Macross II don't want to acknowledge because it's inconvenient to their trollish premise.

Macross II and its tie-ins were classified as a "parallel world".  An alternate universe.  Like the alternate universe storylines in Star Trek, in Gundam, or in DC and Marvel's superhero comics, they're separate but coequal official settings.  Even if they're no longer under active development they're acknowledged and treated as valid installments in the franchise's storylines and promoted alongside the rest of the franchise.

To be "stricken from canon" means no longer being a part of ANY official setting the franchise might have.  Like Star Wars's original Expanded Universe, Gundam's Gaia Gear, Star Trek's original animated series (under Roddenberry), or the majority of the Terminator sequels.  At best, those works might be considered apocryphal but generally they're ignored completely despite still being considered (if only technically) legitimate.

Being "disowned" or "disavowed" is "stricken from canon, with prejudice".  That's when the creator or franchise owner is straight-up denying that a work is a legitimate part of their franchise/series.  Like Eon Productions' stance on the 1967 Casino Royale movie and Never Say Never Again, Robotech's position on almost all licensee-created materials that are dated prior to 2001 (due to copyright issues), how Kawamori has been documented as seeing Robotech, Alan Moore's position on Doomsday Clock, etc.  This is straight-up "I have no son!" territory, where the work is explicitly not considered a legitimate part of the franchise to the point of being "______ in name only".

 

Macross II may not be in continuity with the titles that came after, but it's not ignored either.  Macross 7 has a fair number of Macross II nods in it.  There were Macross II-derived elements in Macross 7 Trash and Macross the First as well.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Seto Kaiba

[Keith]

4 hours ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

 

I just don’t think you like to be wrong Keith. Or even accept that there is an equally valid opinion that counters yours. (Based on my own interactions with you.) Tekering has done nothing but state a logical deduction for why he feels the way he does. He’s entitled to that without you throwing up your hands in a condescending tone of “but that’s cool bra.” 

But at the end of the day, I do find your arguments entertaining as you posture being wicked smart about cartoons and toys...

 

Ah, see that's where your misunderstanding lies. I don't deal in opinions, I deal in facts. Things like "these sequels that were pretty damn successful were actually not successful because I and a few people I talked to didn't like them" are "opinions." On the other hand things like "sequels that are still supported with new continuations and a ton of people I have spoken with actually keep spending their hard earned money on are the definition of popular" are cold hard facts.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Keith

[Keith]

7 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

No, it's not a question of semantics... it's a distinction that the people who rag on Macross II don't want to acknowledge because it's inconvenient to their trollish premise.

Macross II and its tie-ins were classified as a "parallel world".  An alternate universe.  Like the alternate universe storylines in Star Trek, in Gundam, or in DC and Marvel's superhero comics, they're separate but coequal official settings.  Even if they're no longer under active development they're acknowledged and treated as valid installments in the franchise's storylines and promoted alongside the rest of the franchise.

To be "stricken from canon" means no longer being a part of ANY official setting the franchise might have.  Like Star Wars's original Expanded Universe, Gundam's Gaia Gear, Star Trek's original animated series (under Roddenberry), or the majority of the Terminator sequels.  At best, those works might be considered apocryphal but generally they're ignored completely despite still being considered (if only technically) legitimate.

Being "disowned" or "disavowed" is "stricken from canon, with prejudice".  That's when the creator or franchise owner is straight-up denying that a work is a legitimate part of their franchise/series.  Like Eon Productions' stance on the 1967 Casino Royale movie and Never Say Never Again, Robotech's position on almost all licensee-created materials that are dated prior to 2001 (due to copyright issues), how Kawamori has been documented as seeing Robotech, Alan Moore's position on Doomsday Clock, etc.  This is straight-up "I have no son!" territory, where the work is explicitly not considered a legitimate part of the franchise to the point of being "______ in name only".

 

Macross II may not be in continuity with the titles that came after, but it's not ignored either.  Macross 7 has a fair number of Macross II nods in it.  There were Macross II-derived elements in Macross 7 Trash and Macross the First as well.

Exactly, that thing Disney did where it struck away the Star Wars EU is what erasing from canon looks like, except for that part where they keep recycling bits for their new canon...

[camk4evr]

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

No, it's not a question of semantics... it's a distinction that the people who rag on Macross II don't want to acknowledge because it's inconvenient to their trollish premise.

Macross II and its tie-ins were classified as a "parallel world".  An alternate universe.  Like the alternate universe storylines in Star Trek, in Gundam, or in DC and Marvel's superhero comics, they're separate but coequal official settings.  Even if they're no longer under active development they're acknowledged and treated as valid installments in the franchise's storylines and promoted alongside the rest of the franchise.

To be "stricken from canon" means no longer being a part of ANY official setting the franchise might have.  Like Star Wars's original Expanded Universe, Gundam's Gaia Gear, Star Trek's original animated series (under Roddenberry), or the majority of the Terminator sequels.  At best, those works might be considered apocryphal but generally they're ignored completely despite still being considered (if only technically) legitimate.

Being "disowned" or "disavowed" is "stricken from canon, with prejudice".  That's when the creator or franchise owner is straight-up denying that a work is a legitimate part of their franchise/series.  Like Eon Productions' stance on the 1967 Casino Royale movie and Never Say Never Again, Robotech's position on almost all licensee-created materials that are dated prior to 2001 (due to copyright issues), how Kawamori has been documented as seeing Robotech, Alan Moore's position on Doomsday Clock, etc.  This is straight-up "I have no son!" territory, where the work is explicitly not considered a legitimate part of the franchise to the point of being "______ in name only".

 

Macross II may not be in continuity with the titles that came after, but it's not ignored either.  Macross 7 has a fair number of Macross II nods in it.  There were Macross II-derived elements in Macross 7 Trash and Macross the First as well.

And there Macross II missions in the Macross video games for the PSP and maybe the Vita one as well (not sure as I haven't finished the extra missions yet)

Edited April 18, 2021 by camk4evr

[Seto Kaiba]

20 minutes ago, camk4evr said:

And there Macross II missions in the Macross video games for the PSP and maybe the Vita one as well (not sure as I haven't finished the extra missions yet)

Not to mention all of the official publications in the 90's and 2000's...

In hindsight, it's actually REALLY weird that anyone thought that Big West or Kawamori in any way disapproved of Macross II considering how often it got brought up.

[azrael]

I think we're done here.