HG and BW reach an agreement (Link included)

[Zinjo]

I'm skeptical,

BW gave away the farm in 2006 when they didn't defend their IP rights with respect to trademarks.  Hopefully they are smart enough now to ensure their IP rights are better protected from the hacks at HG.  Time will tell. 

For HG it's a win, because they don't have to spend any money to distribute BW paid for properties....  This is what HG was founded on, distributing other people's stuff!

Edited April 9, 2021 by Zinjo

[Nied]

1 minute ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What are you talking about?  The official statement doesn't mention derivative works at all.

It lays out only the following points:

1. The agreement was signed 1 March 2021.
2. Harmony Gold has agreed to get out of the way of Macross distribution worldwide.
3. Big West will not stand in the way of distribution of a Robotech live action movie in Japan if one is made.
4. Harmony Gold's license agreement with Tatsunoko Production, under which they hold the "rest of world" distribution and merchandising rights to SDF Macross excl. Japan is recognized as valid by all parties.
5. Going forward, Big West and Harmony Gold will collaborate on distribution of future Macross and Robotech works.

Harmony Gold has NEVER had the ability to make derivative works based on Super Dimension Fortress Macross's IP... because Tatsunoko doesn't have that ability, and all of Harmony Gold's rights were obtained from its licensing agreement with Tatsunoko Production.  That's why Rick Hunter et. al. were redesigned for Sentinels, and again for Shadow Chronicles, and why pretty much all their sequel efforts are MOSPEADA-based.  Even HG itself has been pretty clear on this.

You literally listed at least two derivative works.

[Zinjo]

6 minutes ago, Nied said:

You literally listed at least two derivative works.

Actually the works are derivatives of SDFM which HG can do as per their agreement with Tatsunoko who technically owns SDFM outside of Japan due to the 2003 ruling. 

No post SDFM properties can be used such as M+, M2, M0, MF, etc... despite HG's false claims they had rights to.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Zinjo

[JB0]

6 minutes ago, Nied said:

You literally listed at least two derivative works.

Legally-speaking, they aren't. They don't use any SDF Macross names or designs.

[Nied]

1 minute ago, Zinjo said:

Actually the works are derivatives of SDFM which HG can do as per their agreement with Tatsunoko who technically owns SDFM outside of Japan. 

No post SDFM properties can be used such as M+, M2, M0, MF, etc...

That's true which is a climb down from HG I missed, although it does appear they may be involved in distribution of those properties.

[Zinjo]

1 minute ago, Nied said:

That's true which is a climb down from HG I missed, although it does appear they may be involved in distribution of those properties.

Nope. 

Central Park Media had the  distribution rights to M+ in the 90's and I believe Manga had Mac2, or the other way round....

[Nied]

1 minute ago, JB0 said:

Legally-speaking, they aren't. They don't use any SDF Macross names or designs.

Except the press release says HG retains the rights to use those names or designs.

[Bolt]

29 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

Honestly. While I am glad that things are looking up for Macross thanks to this, I am a bit sad that Robotech may not be a thing anymore. Robotech was my childhood and the reason I got into Macross in the first place so if Robotech goes the way of the dodo (or already has been as Seto has mentioned) then I do not know what to think about this. Sigh.

 

19 minutes ago, Invid99 said:

The same happened to me too. It was Robotech that got me into Macross. When I started watching Robotech, I didn't knew it was a different adaptation from SDFM. Thought it was the same thing. I was really shocked and surpised when I found out about the debacle of HG. 

You guys. I watched Robowreck when it first aird in the US. I had already stumbled across the toys. It was great. But once I (shortly thereafter) discovered SDFM and, more importantly, DYRL , as a young teen..i never bothered with the hg mess. Following the legit source and it's ongoing works throughout the years since then, is MORE of my life than the few months rt was in my life. 

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, Nied said:

You literally listed at least two derivative works.

No, I did not.

As indicated previously, Harmony Gold has been very clear that the proposed Robotech live action movie is not an adaptation of the TV series.  They have indicated it is planned to be a reimagining with a new original story, new original designs, and so on.  Nothing in it is going to be derivative of the Japanese animation used in the Robotech TV series, per HG.  It isn't, therefore, a derivative work of SDF Macross.

The same is effectively true for the Robotech animated sequels.  They can't, and therefore don't, use Macross designs in the new animation produced for them.  They use legally-distinct replacement designs for the few returning characters, and generally refer to past events from the Macross Saga in generic terms or not at all.  (e.g. why Maia Sterling is "half-alien" not "half-Zentradi")  They are legally derivative works based on Southern Cross and MOSPEADA given their usage (with permission) of IP from those shows, but not of Macross because the projects don't use the Macross IP or base anything on it.  (Comic books, video games, etc. are legally merchandise, rather than derivative works, so it's fair game there.)

 

1 minute ago, Zinjo said:

Actually the works are derivatives of SDFM which HG can do as per their agreement with Tatsunoko who technically owns SDFM outside of Japan. 

No post SDFM properties can be used such as M+, M0, MF, etc...

That's not correct either... for the reasons stated above.

[Nied]

1 minute ago, Zinjo said:

Nope. 

Central Park Media had the  distribution rights to M+ in the 90's and I believe Manga had Mac2, or the other way round....

I meant from now on

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, Nied said:

Except the press release says HG retains the rights to use those names or designs.

In the Robotech television series (the so-called "original 85") and in merchandise.

Or, put simply, Harmony Gold still has the license to distribute the original SDF Macross series animation and make merchandise based on it.

[deathzealot]

5 minutes ago, Bolt said:

You guys. I watched Robowreck when it first aird in the US. I had already stumbled across the toys. It was great. But once I (shortly thereafter) discovered SDFM and, more importantly, DYRL , as a young teen..i never bothered with the hg mess. Following the legit source and it's ongoing works throughout the years since then, is MORE of my life than the few months rt was in my life. 

That is your opinion, but while I am a Macross fan I also like Robotech. I really wish they managed to keep Shadow Chronicles going for I was actually interested in where they would take the story in that. I also wanted to see what they were going to do with Robotech Academy. Sigh. However, that said I do understand why everyone does not like Robotech.

Edited April 9, 2021 by deathzealot

[Bolt]

1 minute ago, deathzealot said:

That is your opinion,

Lol. Back at ya bruv 

This is Macross world baby

[Marzan]

The big question here that no one is discussing.

 

Can our wallets sustain the inevitable oncoming onslaught?

[Nied]

6 minutes ago, Bolt said:

 

You guys. I watched Robowreck when it first aird in the US. I had already stumbled across the toys. It was great. But once I (shortly thereafter) discovered SDFM and, more importantly, DYRL , as a young teen..i never bothered with the hg mess. Following the legit source and it's ongoing works throughout the years since then, is MORE of my life than the few months rt was in my life. 

 

[Bolt]

Just now, Marzan said:

The big question here that no one is discussing.

 

Can our wallets sustain the inevitable oncoming onslaught?

They always did before.  many of us only have one kidney tho..

[Bolt]

If you guys wanna enjoy a stagnant franchise. More power to ya 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, deathzealot said:

That is your opinion, but while I am a Macross fan I also like Robotech. I really wish they managed to keep Shadow Chronicles going for I was actually interested in where they would take the story in that. I also wanted to see what they were going to do with Robotech Academy. Sigh. However, that said I do understand why everyone does not like Robotech.

Have you, perchance, read the leaked plot outline for the remainder of Shadow Chronicles?  I suspect you would not have enjoyed it.  It did not inspire confidence.

If you have not, but are interested, I can assist you in that regard.

 

5 minutes ago, Marzan said:

Can our wallets sustain the inevitable oncoming onslaught?

Depends how hard and fast they hit us.

I think we've got at least half a year to sock cash away for Macross goodies while Big West and Harmony Gold sort out distributors and the like.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Seto Kaiba

[Kyp Durron]

As long as it means an end to late night "Preorder Madness" sessions, I'll be perfectly content.

[Bolt]

What really tickles me is the idea hg has even made the effort to have the right to show an rt movie in Japan 

[deathzealot]

15 minutes ago, Bolt said:

If you guys wanna enjoy a stagnant franchise. More power to ya 

While it is dead, I wouldn't call Robotech stagnant as it still has its fans and followers after all.

14 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Have you, perchance, read the leaked plot outline for the remainder of Shadow Chronicles?  I suspect you would not have enjoyed it.  It did not inspired confidence.

Yes, actually I have read it. While I wasn't totally thrilled about it I still was interested in it. My step brother showed me it trying to get me away from Robotech a few years ago. Rollseyes.

Edited April 9, 2021 by deathzealot

[Seto Kaiba]

8 minutes ago, Bolt said:

What really tickles me is the idea hg has even made the effort to have the right to show an rt movie in Japan 

The implausibility of the movie ever being made aside, that would actually be a fairly important point for the hopes Harmony Gold pinned on the proposed film.

Japan stands real tall at the box office.  Like, outside the US, Japan is #2 behind China in terms of the yearly box office gross according to the Motion Picture Association's annual report.  (For 2019.  The 2020 numbers are... atypical... for the obvious reason.)

When you consider that Big West potentially had the power to lock a Robotech movie out of Japan, China, and the EU?  That's the top two non-US markets plus five of the remaining top 20 markets amounting to approximately 2/3 of the global box office earnings.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Seto Kaiba

[Bolt]

1 minute ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The implausibility of the movie ever being made aside, that would actually be a fairly important point for the hopes Harmony Gold pinned on the proposed film.

Japan stands real tall at the box office.  Like, outside the US, Japan is #2 behind China in terms of the yearly box office gross according to the Motion Picture Association's annual report.

When you consider that Big West potentially had the power to lock a Robotech movie out of Japan, China, and the EU?  That's the top two non-US markets plus five of the remaining top 20 markets amounting to approximately 2/3 of the global box office earnings.

Sure there's a big market there.

But, considering both Ghost In the Shell and Battle Angel didn't shake the islands, and considering the probability hg could beg , borrow or steal their way into a (decent) movie.. it's amusing.

 

[Protoman]

10 minutes ago, Bolt said:

What really tickles me is the idea hg has even made the effort to have the right to show an rt movie in Japan 

They didn't. Sony did.

[Nied]

1 minute ago, Protoman said:

They didn't. Sony did.

Psshh! What does Sony know about selling things in Japan?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, Bolt said:

Sure there's a big market there.

But, considering both Ghost In the Shell and Battle Angel didn't shake the islands, and considering the probability hg could beg , borrow or steal their way into a (decent) movie.. it's amusing.

Ah, that's a fair point.  Western adaptations of anime have pretty uniformly been box office failures and tend to do comparatively worse in Asian markets.  I've seen a number of analysis pieces pinning Ghost in the Shell and Alita: Battle Angel's respective failures to break even on lukewarm receptions in China.

It's still a potentially-important agreement to reach, which could translate into millions of box office dollars even for a poor performer.

 

2 minutes ago, Protoman said:

They didn't. Sony did.

Sony might.  It's still only a proposal.

[Zinjo]

49 minutes ago, Nied said:

Except the press release says HG retains the rights to use those names or designs.

Correct, as HG has an agreement with Tats for merchandizing outside Japan for SDFM only. 

And they did use the original character names when they released SDFM on DVD a few years back. 

An awful dub job, but it is what one could expect from a creatively bankrupt organization.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

 

56 minutes ago, Nied said:

I meant from now on

Guaranteed, HG will distribute the post SDFM videos. 

That is what they have always done with other people's works.  They license it and distribute it in their sphere of influence.

[azrael]

44 minutes ago, Kyp Durron said:

As long as it means an end to late night "Preorder Madness" sessions, I'll be perfectly content.

Again, this will not change because of this agreement. You still need to get your ass into the queue.

 

[Kyp Durron]

1 minute ago, azrael said:

Again, this will not change because of this agreement. You still need to get your ass into the queue.

 

[Zinjo]

1 hour ago, deathzealot said:

That is your opinion, but while I am a Macross fan I also like Robotech. I really wish they managed to keep Shadow Chronicles going for I was actually interested in where they would take the story in that. I also wanted to see what they were going to do with Robotech Academy. Sigh. However, that said I do understand why everyone does not like Robotech.

I was hoping for something more with SC.  Not comic book cutouts delivering painfully awful dialogue.  The premise was interesting but execution was horrible.  

The worst scene had to be when one pilot goes into a suicide run against the enemy for no good reason.  I guess that's to be expected from stellar writers like Tommy Yune and Carl Macek...

[Mommar]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Your definition of victory is too narrow, my friend.

Harmony Gold abandoned the field.  They've signed the instrument of surrender.

It just wasn't a completely unconditional surrender.

Instead, true to the company's quasi-Italian roots, once they'd exhausted their bluster and their elaborate aggressive posturing failed to impress... they switched sides.  They decided to knuckle under and learn to love the taste of Big West's boot leather rather than lose the farm on a slow and fundamentally unwinnable battle of attrition.

Yeah, Harmony Gold will collect some small percentage of the take from Macross licensing... but that's all.  Big West gave up NOTHING in this.  NOTHING.  And they got everything they wanted.  Harmony Gold, on the other hand, effectively gave up almost everything it had for a few crumbs from Big West's table.  They withdrew their opposition to Macross's global licensing.  They'd already effectively abandoned Robotech and now apparently are giving Big West partial control over it as well.  The only thing they can cling to is the hope that Sony will green-light a Robotech movie... which, from the outset, was never going to use Big West's IP anyway and is all but guaranteed to be a failure because failing is what American anime adaptations DO.

It's not quite the complete annihilation that folks who utterly loathe Harmony Gold were hoping for, but it's INCREDIBLY close in the final analysis.

Robotech is, for all practical intents and purposes, dead.  Harmony Gold has bent the knee to Macross's owners without any significant concessions from Big West's side.  That's a win by any standard.

 

Will this agreement make it possible to open up the world-wide market to Arcadia, i.e. they can finally cater designs/toys to an audience outside of Japan who would want a 1/3000 SDFM Macross?  Because if it doesn’t I certainly didn’t win.

[Einherjar]

1 hour ago, Nied said:

Except the press release says HG retains the rights to use those names or designs.

Kind of a moot point if future interpretations have Rick, Roy, and Max follow recent trends and continue to give them Rob Liefeld inspired body proportions.  Don’t get me started with what they did to the female characters recently.

And holy crap, the teeth.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Einherjar

[Nied]

Something else that just occurred to me: If this really is HG abandoning the field and bending the knee and whatever other overwrought metaphor Seto says, why did HG and BW agree to co-produce future Robotech properties?

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, Nied said:

Something else that just occurred to me: If this really is HG abandoning the field and bending the knee and whatever other overwrought metaphor Seto says, why did HG and BW agree to co-produce future Robotech properties?

It doesn't say that either.

Quote

Moving forward, both parties will cooperate on distribution regarding future Macross and Robotech projects for the benefit of both franchises.

And the reason they have to cooperate?  Big West owns a lot of the trademarks that used to belong to Harmony Gold, so HG now needs Big West's permission to use certain terms, logos, etc. in most key markets.

So IF Harmony Gold ever makes anything Robotech again they'll be cooperating with Big West on distribution out of legal necessity.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Seto Kaiba