Graham's clarification - Yamato VF-0S

[RainBot]

I am SO not interested in 1 1/100 toy. I am Valked -out. The VF O design is cool, but I want diecast and I want something at least as cool as a 1/60. Unless these things are soooper cheap, no thanks.

[wwwmwww]

And yes, I know the answer to whether there will be a larger perfect transformation version later, but sorry I'm not allowed to say.

Graham

I think I would have worded this as "Yes I know whether there are current plans for a larger perfect transformation version later". If there were no 'current' plans I don't think you'd be able to say the above. Then again even if there are plans I don't think that's any guarantee... unless... (ok I think I better stop guessing now).

Sorry... I read between the lines FAR too much,

Carl

Oh and congrats!!!

Edited January 27, 2004 by wwwmwww

[Myersjessee]

LOL...I love your logic Carl...thats an engineers eye...and I could not agree more....the fact that something can't be said would seem to imply there could be something....lets hope sales warrent it!

[EXO]

I'd like to say that I wouldn't be buying one of these in favor of waiting for a bigger one.

But I know I'd be lying to myself.

As soon as I see it at Frank and Sons, I'm going to pick it up... look at it... and before I even know it I'll be accepting my change after paying for the damn thing.

It's a disease. <_>

[Nani?!]

I think if yamato had started off small with the VF-1 series all this "it's too small" fuss would have been a non-issue. I dunno, it kinda feels like buying a ferrari then downgrading to a Honda accord...

I welcome the idea in itself whole heartedly. Even the with the imperfect tranformation (yamato's were never meant for play anyway). Valks should have been cheaper. Us Macross collectors have been spoiled with the higher end of the Anime toy market. This is how Yamato should have started. But they didn't... they started with something superior. People (even the monetarily less fortunate like myself) tend to UPGRADE not downgrade.

Anyway, despite Graham's claim that a bigger scale is unconfirmed, I think it's safe for anyone to personally garantee and assure themselves that there will be a larger scale... Yamato's gotta be kidding themselves if they denies this...

[EXO]

Yamato's not kidding anyone.

They make stuff. You buy it or you don't.

[Jawjaw]

Anyway, despite Graham's claim that a bigger scale is unconfirmed, I think it's safe for anyone to personally garantee and assure themselves that there will be a larger scale... Yamato's gotta be kidding themselves if they denies this...

I wouldn't count on it if I where you. Just because they did a different scale for one of their many toys, doesn't mean they are going to start doing it for everything. Also, the 1/48 was not just a different scale but a completely different design. I get the feeling that Yamato really wanted to do something special with the classic vf-1 and wasn't completely happy with the 1/60's. That is also why they are redoing the Mac+ valks (at least we think they are). They were all designed without computers and while Yamato was still learning from their mistakes.

Granted, I wouldn't be suprised to see larger scale Mac0 toys someday. If the first few Mac0 toys sell very well, I'm sure Yamato will find ways to make more. Of course, we will not hear about any such news until well after the smaller scale toys are sold. It would be stupid of Yamato to leak info of bigger better toys before the sell the smaller ones.

[Nani?!]

Yamato's not kidding anyone.

They make stuff. You buy it or you don't.

EXO, You even stated in your recent post that you yourself will wait for a bigger version.

Given that the valk is cheap enough, yeah, I'll probably end up giving in and buying it as well.

In response to the tone of your remark however,

I think customers have the right to question, speculate, opinionate, and to some extent, complain about products both in production and post production.

Yeah, people can simply buy it or choose not to... BUT just like your previous post suggesting your probable decision, it's just not that simple. People seriously form loyalty and habits to all this. Knowing this, I think yamato should be more accessible to opinions of their loyal fans. Many of you people say "yamato doesn't owe anyone anything", "it's just toys" etc. etc... yeah, technically they don't and yes, they might be just toys, but it's yamato's core business. Even a simple minded person should know that in any business, the customer's opinion always comes first. Given that yamato has a fan based consumer following, this logic should be practiced even further. Unfortunately, it's really not the case.

Anyway,

Really. Being annoyed at whiners and flamers is one thing... But to blast away any sort of criticism reaching the vicinity of yamato because some of you believe "they don't owe us nothing", is just plain fascist. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion. That's the BEAUTY & PURPOSE of a forum.

[Valk-1S]

I agree with you JawJaw. There's always still a possibility Yamato may not make a larger VF-0. We have to remember Yamato caters to the Japan market and it will depend on how well the VF-0 line does there. If it becomes a success, plus Yamato is able to allocated resources to the Zero line, than we will probably see a larger scale. But I don't think it will be this year. Earliest in my opinion will be next year as Yamato will probably release most of the Macross Zero products in the 1/100 scale before announcing a larger version.

And to those who think Yamato will release a 1/48 VF-0, I doubt that will happen as its just too big. 1/48 VF-0 will be like almost 40cm long in fighter mode. The 1/48 VF-1 is about 30cm. Most likely we will see a 1/60 or 1/72 scale or some other new scale if Yamato decided to release it.

[imode]

LOL...I love your logic Carl...thats an engineers eye...and I could not agree more....the fact that something can't be said would seem to imply there could be something....lets hope sales warrent it!

I find it odd how Yamato has to make a small version of something before they see if they can justify selling a larger version. You'd figure by now that the sales of the 1/48 has already shown Yamato that what people want are "bigger" and "more detail". There must be something truly diabolical happening if the execs look at their figures and say, "what we need is something smaller, that breaks up into 4 pieces then you have to put it back together."

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

how can it be too big? How can something like the qrau and monster be justified? talk about too big. Hell its proven fans will buy this stuff. And wasnt it not too long ago that yamato's CEO wanted to make a good image for the company therefore wanted these projects made though they may be big? I dont even think a 1/48 VF-0 would even be taller than the 1/60 qrau. its only long in fighter mode i doubt its that much bigger in battroid mode. Itll cost a hella of a lot mroe than the monster differentiating in hundrers of dollars. If they makea 1/60 then thats fine but that would only make it how much bigger than a 1/60? what 12 inches>? Sure thats fine withn me but i look at the 1/48 line as high end collectabl toys for adults who either like to play with theri stuff and are careful; or for the fan who olieks putting stuff on display and fiddling aorund wiuth every now and then. The benefit of perfect transformation is something i have come to expect with the 1/48 line. BTW a couple years back toyboxdx had an interview with a worker at yamato..maybe the ceo. When he asked toybox(i believe allen yen or mattt alt) about the 1/60 line and of the transformation, he responded that he did not like the swap out transformation.

Yamato's answer?

"but its CANON"

swing bars are canon according tto the animation on the 0 that is, so I feel that this deserves a jump to 1/48...hell i could be bitching for nothing and have a 1/48 VF-0 for x mas. lets hope.

now the swing bar argument cant reealy be used for the VF-1...since the 1/48 does i so discretely that its almost unnotifeabl until u transform the damn thing not to mention the leg joints for the hip are LOCATED in the right place in battroid mode according to the line art(on the FLIR sensors).

[Nani?!]

I agree with you JawJaw. There's always still a possibility Yamato may not make a larger VF-0. We have to remember Yamato caters to the Japan market and it will depend on how well the VF-0 line does there. If it becomes a success, plus Yamato is able to allocated resources to the Zero line, than we will probably see a larger scale. But I don't think it will be this year. Earliest in my opinion will be next year as Yamato will probably release most of the Macross Zero products in the 1/100 scale before announcing a larger version.

All true and agreed.

But still, given the popularity of Macross Zero, I think we'll see a larger scale. I'm definitely not holding my breath because I agree that it probably wont be out this year. Knowing yamato, I think a year or so is a safe guess-timate.

I dunno, I strangely do not have a doubt in my mind that there will be a bigger scale version. It's almost a no brainer for me.

[unsped]

macross is a current series that does not require previous knowledge of the existing series. by the looks of the animation etc.. it seems aimed at a slightly younger crowd as well. 1/100 cheaper models seemed aimed at the general public and im sure are thought to be more profitable than the original macross market.

the original macross market has alot less population, but the people in it are willing to spend alot more money (partially because they are now alot older than its intended target audience)

macross zero is currently seen by more people than macross is seen by today (im not talking the past). these people dont neccessarily have any connection to the original series. they are less informed, less die hard, and most likely younger, meaning they have less money.

imagine the target audience for macross zero is something similar to universal century gundam fans. fix toys are considered high end, when they themselves are generally about 1/4 the cost of a FP 1/48. since yamato is competing with non die hard macross fans .. if the toys are too expensive they will just go buy gundam, chogokin, eva .... or any of the other toys from series they probably also watch.

whereas a diehard macross fan, will buy macross toys at any price. so original series macross toys are changed accordingly.

you guys just happen to fall into a category that is included in both groups, the majority of whom yamato probably wants to sell macross zero toys to is not. the number of die hard fans is probably far outnumbered by macross zero viewers, hence the weight thats given to each.

my guess is they is no 1/60 1/72 or 1/48 macross zero toys currently planned. enough stink will get raised, yamato will release limited larger scale toys, and they will sell poorly compared to the 1/100 line.

just imho.

Edited January 28, 2004 by unsped

[EXO]

Yamato's not kidding anyone.

They make stuff. You buy it or you don't.

EXO, You even stated in your recent post that you yourself will wait for a bigger version.

Given that the valk is cheap enough, yeah, I'll probably end up giving in and buying it as well.

In response to the tone of your remark however,

I think customers have the right to question, speculate, opinionate, and to some extent, complain about products both in production and post production.

Yeah, people can simply buy it or choose not to... BUT just like your previous post suggesting your probable decision, it's just not that simple. People seriously form loyalty and habits to all this. Knowing this, I think yamato should be more accessible to opinions of their loyal fans. Many of you people say "yamato doesn't owe anyone anything", "it's just toys" etc. etc... yeah, technically they don't and yes, they might be just toys, but it's yamato's core business. Even a simple minded person should know that in any business, the customer's opinion always comes first. Given that yamato has a fan based consumer following, this logic should be practiced even further. Unfortunately, it's really not the case.

Anyway,

Really. Being annoyed at whiners and flamers is one thing... But to blast away any sort of criticism reaching the vicinity of yamato because some of you believe "they don't owe us nothing", is just plain fascist. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion. That's the BEAUTY & PURPOSE of a forum.

read my post again...

sure the customers have the right to speculate and opinionate, but some people think that they customize it people's certain tastes. The only vote that matters for them is the that raises or lowers their profit margin. Some people here think that Yamato goes thru this threads and takes notes. "The 1/100 is not good enough" or "it's good enough, but not with removeable parts" or "it better be cheap" I'm just saying. the only way you can affect them is if you do or don't buy their products. And even then you or anyone else on these boards know how they will take the response. If the 1/100 fails does it mean to them that the fans wanted a bigger one? Or the fans are not interested in the Vf-0s at all?

I wasn't aiming the response to you, I just ended up taking what you said and used it for my general statement.

[Apollo Leader]

Yes the 1/100 version will have a clear canopy. I'm not sure, but as far as I know it will also have a pilot figure. I've been told it will also come with removeable missiles, leg FAST packs and gunpod.

You have to consider that with publishing lead times, the pictures in this months Dengeki Hobby magazine are of a pretty old sculpt already. The present sculpt which I've seen a few days ago has much more detail.

Months ago, when I first heard that Yamato would be making a small scale non-perfect transformation VF-0, I was initially pretty dissapointed, but now that I've atually seen it, I'm warming to the idea. The smaller size (actually, it's still pretty big) will help with my shelf space which is fast running out. The lower cost will make it easier to buy multiples (important for me as I have a kid on the way and so need to save money). And I'm actually coming to like the idea of removable/swapable nose parts as it will allow for a toy which is better in proportion in all modes.

And yes, I know the answer to whether there will be a larger perfect transformation version later, but sorry I'm not allowed to say.

Graham

Looks like Graham's been busy. Congratulations!

As for the VF-0, as long as we eventually get a much larger VF-0 down the road, I think I can live with the 1/100th VF-0 for now.

[Nani?!]

sure the customers have the right to speculate and opinionate, but some people think that they customize it people's certain tastes. The only vote that matters for them is the that raises or lowers their profit margin. Some people here think that Yamato goes thru this threads and takes notes. "The 1/100 is not good enough" or "it's good enough, but not with removeable parts" or "it better be cheap" I'm just saying. the only way you can affect them is if you do or don't buy their products. And even then you or anyone else on these boards know how they will take the response. If the 1/100 fails does it mean to them that the fans wanted a bigger one? Or the fans are not interested in the Vf-0s at all?

Nice. I agree with you in that sales figures are Yamato's greatest influence.

But I do think yamato pays attention to the forums here to a substantial degree. This explains why Graham's lips are held so tight. Given Macrossworld's popularity I think is one of the reasons why graham gets exculsive peaks at what is to come. I also think that it is because someone at yamato reads these forums is why Graham doesn't let the slightest hint slip out of his mouth. ie. when he said he had to ask his source if he can state the reasons why yamato went with 1/100 for the Macross O's.

Anyway, never underestimate the power of the forum... I've been posting for various others and in many cases, company reps posted updates personally straight from the source almost weekly. They even held IIRC chat/question sessions. Which is why I was surprised when I came here and found how guarded everything was here.

Sorry if I mistook you for a yamato imperial guard.

They're out there... to hunt down all criticism related to yamato.

[EXO]

Sorry if I mistook you for a yamato imperial guard.

They're out there... to hunt down all criticism related to yamato.

these are not the valks you're looking for...

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I think some of us have already fessed up that although we wouold LOVE a biger perfect transform.. a lot of us will use the 1/100 to hold us over waiting for the damn big bastard to set down. Yes it should be big but hell thats not bad at all. Some of you are buygin teh coffee table monster and is not like we are saying the thing is too big. Hell if i could affor it i probably would.

However I think that al the fans worldwide would be able to be more "accepting" of this toy as a holdover titl the big fish comes to sea. However i could be wrong but for me as long as i knew a big one was coming..i could see the 1/100 in a better light.

[JELEINEN]

macross is a current series that does not require previous knowledge of the existing series. by the looks of the animation etc.. it seems aimed at a slightly younger crowd as well. 1/100 cheaper models seemed aimed at the general public and im sure are thought to be more profitable than the original macross market.

<SNIP>

That's my thinking exactly. It looks to me like the 1/100 is going to be sold more of a toy than a collector's piece given it's size and material. They're going to want to sell these to a new audience, not to a bunch of old fogies hanging on to a 20+ year old TV show (though they won't complain if the old fogies buy them too, I'm sure). Collectors who are old enough to remember the original Macross are more likely to have the disposable income necessary to buy bigger, more expensive toys. If you want a wider appeal to a generally younger group, smaller and cheaper is the way to go.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

yes i understand this line is made for people in mass market. PErhaps to even take on gundam FIX. it really does seem like a Gundam FIX like line. From then materials to trasnformations.(mninmal swapping as een on zeta plus).

WHile I do agree this is more of an action figure than a trasnforming robot toy, Yamato must not forget what market brought it the most profit. Did a lot of kids in Japan know what the hell the VF-1 was>when the 1/60 came out? compared to the YF19 I think NOT. Maybe later on once the oldies and adults educated them on it. yamato came across to us as a collectors company. Making stuff for mass market is fine but to disregard us in favor of more profit...? thats called SELLING out. Sure it might make good business sense but we the OLDER FANS are the very backbone that kept the macross toy line for yamato running. BY the likes of it it seems like a lot of the japanese fans feel the same way as they are now comparing this to a banpresto. NOw the onyl way to prove that they are not disregarding the older fanbase of which it ORIGINALLY marketed to with te inception of he first macross plus toys, is to announce a collecters edition 1/48 or 1/60 VF-0 eventually down the line. Sure my opinion may not reflect the entirety or majority of this board but hey I think its a good call if they announce a big ass one is coming down the line. We all know for sure this 1/100 line is more better for variants and such and that the high end /48 should only be the fan favs since copsts to manufacture and design owuld of course be much higher than that of the 1/100.

[Aegis!]

macross is a current series that does not require previous knowledge of the existing series. by the looks of the animation etc.. it seems aimed at a slightly younger crowd as well. 1/100 cheaper models seemed aimed at the general public and im sure are thought to be more profitable than the original macross market.

<SNIP>

That's my thinking exactly. It looks to me like the 1/100 is going to be sold more of a toy than a collector's piece given it's size and material. They're going to want to sell these to a new audience, not to a bunch of old fogies hanging on to a 20+ year old TV show (though they won't complain if the old fogies buy them too, I'm sure). Collectors who are old enough to remember the original Macross are more likely to have the disposable income necessary to buy bigger, more expensive toys. If you want a wider appeal to a generally younger group, smaller and cheaper is the way to go.

But how many ¨young¨ fans can really afford the $50 OVAs and get attracted to the series , let alone buy $40 toys ($40 per unit).

OK , so for some young little geezer in Japan to finally get interested in these toys they would firstly have to spend $150 on the OVAs alone , then another $40 on the VF-0..mmm...sure , the young japanese lads could perfectly make their parents spend $190 for the whole lot

This is not as much related to younger fans as to the marketing strategy itself.

I´m getting tired of repeating the same argument on various threads so I´ll just quote myself:

they need to release a REAL mass production item so they can sell lots of these toys (instead of the fewer sales seen in the motre expensive 1/48s) and get some profits. Once they´ve released all possible variants they´ll start to produce collector items ala 1/48 , though quite pressumeably in 1/60 or 1/72.

the gap between the 1/60 VF-1s and 1/48s was too small because the 1/60s were not really cheap mass production toys , they were medium range mass production toys , hence they didn´t sell in HUGE numbers and those sales were overshadowed by the release of the 1/48s , so 1/60 sales went down , and 1/48 sales went up but even then the 1/48 didn´t sell in vast numbers and their price tag didn´t help much when their sales weren´t as much as mass production toys , so Yamato was left with the very few 1/48 sales. That´s why they´re now trully trying to porduce mass production toys so they can sell in more numbers.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

i agree with many points in your arguments. To be financially profitable I think that the only toys to make the jump to 1/48 cwould be Sv-51 ivanov, Nora, 0D shin, 0S focker.

while the 1/100 action pose line has more than double the toys listed above. Maybe the kids rent the OVA? Not sur eif they still make VHS but that would be cheaper too. 1/100 for the kiddies and fan fav for 1/48...annnounce this yamato and we are all universally happy...

and if theres profit left over or in eccess... 1/48 VF-0A.

[Neova]

I decided to wait a while before I posted my comments on the 1/100 VF-0S and glad I did. I, like most folks here on the forums, do want that perfect 1/48 ultra detail VF-0S and other Valkyries and mecha from M:0. There is no denying this.

But from a business standpoint, I think Yamato did the right thing with initially releasing a smaller scale, and financially affordable toy for the masses. This decision has many great benefits:

1. Initial product is relatively cheap to buy and able to penetrate the mass market for toy buyers, expanding the demographic of Macross fans or at the least, increasing market awareness of Macross.

2. Ride the coat tails of M:0 OVA releases to produce a constant flow of products for new (and old) Macross fans.

3. Simple and smaller design = cheaper design and more profits for the company

4. Designs can be QC'ed by intial customers and generated feedback can allow for version 2.0 and up with future improvements that may have been missed by internal QC/QA team.

5. With expanded awareness and increasing market demand for M:0 products, Yamato can scale up and provide version 2.0 quality and increase the details on bigger niche collector grade products in 1/72, 1/60 and 1/48 scales, so long as there is demand for it.

Those polls and threads generated here mostly consists of the consolidated voice of hardcore Macross (and other anime) fans which make up a very very small number of the total sales potential that Yamato is probably seeking. While I hope Yamato listens to MWs and other hardcore fans, we can't forget the fact that Yamato is in the toy business and the goal is to make money. The mass market is where the money is. See Bandai and their huge multi-grade Gundam line for THE example of a very successful toy franchise.

Personally, I'm just going to wait until that 1/48 Uber-detail version comes out along with all accessories and enemy mecha.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

wjhole for the most part i agree....it can also be said that the majority of macross toys by yamato aside from the 1/100 0's are made primarily for the if not adult market then the older collector market..Ya know the teens whjo know better not to try breaking one by forcing it too far. You wouldnt give any of the previous yammies to a 5 yr old trust me. And yes its true they are making money but I think they are primarily older centered. THe toys they make like the escaflowne and big O were certianly not made with kids in mind. NIether was the 1/48 or 1`.60 line. Its nice tehy add the 1/100 so the kiddies can have somethintg but in terms of yamato I think WE the older fans make up their target market. See for hasbro it can be said we make a small percentag but for yamato i believe its really the other way around.,

[Skull-1]

With the 1:1 helmet coming out I was hoping for a 1:1 Valk next. Yamato is going backwards!

[Black Valkyrie]

What worries me is that it might turn out like the Escaflowne Dragon <_< , for me it`s hard to have a VF with out die-cast especially in a large scale (1/55, 1/60 or 1/72).

Where`s the YF-19FB, don`t tell me this one also won`t have die-cast ?!. Is Yamato abandonning die-casts for their toys ?!.

[DrClay]

What worries me is that it might turn out like the Escaflowne Dragon , for me it`s hard to have a VF with out die-cast especially in a large scale (1/55, 1/60 or 1/72).

Where`s the YF-19FB, don`t tell me this one also won`t have die-cast ?!. Is Yamato abandonning die-casts for their toys ?!.

I fear they may be abandoning YF-19fp toys

[Graham]

What worries me is that it might turn out like the Escaflowne Dragon  ,  for me it`s hard to have a VF with out die-cast especially in a large scale (1/55, 1/60 or 1/72).

Where`s the YF-19FB, don`t tell me this one also won`t have die-cast ?!. Is Yamato abandonning die-casts for their toys ?!.

I fear they may be abandoning YF-19fp toys

Don't worry.

Graham

[Graham]

Where`s the YF-19FB, don`t tell me this one also won`t have die-cast ?!. Is Yamato abandonning die-casts for their toys ?!.

I think that die-cast is pretty much being abandoned except for parts where it is absolutely necessary, i.e. the 1/48 swing bar.

It's not a cost issue, it's just that with die-cast parts you inevitably get paint chipping, the detail is not as sharp as on ABS parts and it's often difficult to get a perfect color match between the plastic parts and the die-cast parts. Also, many toys with die-cast parts do have balance issues.

I know this forum has a lot of die-cast addicts , but I'm not one of them and personally I prefer my Macross toys plastic, with metal only where necessary for strength.

Graham

[DrClay]

I prefer my Macross toys plastic, with metal only where necessary for strength.

aka factory assembled models but less accurate and all around poopee

The 1/48 is good like that, but these little Gundam wannabes.... wwwwwwwhy!!! Yamato used to make such great toys remember those days when a Yamato was better than a MSiA or a $5 transformer from wal-mart?

[Vostok 7]

aka factory assembled models but less accurate and all around poopee

The 1/48 is good like that, but these little Gundam wannabes.... wwwwwwwhy!!! Yamato used to make such great toys remember those days when a Yamato was better than a MSiA or a $5 transformer from wal-mart?

Don'tcha just love ignorance?

Vostok 7

[DrClay]

hold on... the YF-19fp will be mainly die-cast free?!

has Yamato lost their minds?

I'm supposed to pay out the whazoo for some featherlight, insubstantial piece of crap? who cares how nice it looks IF that's all it's got! I could just look at the picture of them models in that there Hobby magazine and get all the goodness of a die-castless 1:72 Yf-21 FOR FREE!

It's the death of an era (a very short era) no more good macross toys... Just model kits (blech!) and pre-assembled by sweat shop worker models (extra blech!)

no wonder Yamato won't let Graham tell what they've been planning. If this is true, they've lost a customer!!!!!!!!!

[DrClay]

aka factory assembled models but less accurate and all around poopee

The 1/48 is good like that, but these little Gundam wannabes.... wwwwwwwhy!!! Yamato used to make such great toys remember those days when a Yamato was better than a MSiA or a $5 transformer from wal-mart?

Don'tcha just love ignorance?

Vostok 7

don't you just love insulting other members of the board?

[Vostok 7]

hold on... the YF-19fp will be mainly die-cast free?!

has Yamato lost their minds?

I'm supposed to pay out the whazoo for some featherlight, insubstantial piece of crap? who cares how nice it looks IF that's all it's got! I could just look at the picture of them models in that there Hobby magazine and get all the goodness of a die-castless 1:72 Yf-21 FOR FREE!

It's the death of an era (a very short era) no more good macross toys... Just model kits (blech!) and pre-assembled by sweat shop worker models (extra blech!)

no wonder Yamato won't let Graham tell what they've been planning. If this is true, they've lost a customer!!!!!!!!!

See my comment above... <_<

Vostok 7

[Vostok 7]

don't you just love insulting other members of the board?

Don't you just love coming to very early assumptions?

You know what happens when you assume, don't you?

Vostok 7

Edited January 28, 2004 by Vostok 7