Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

[pengbuzz]

40 minutes ago, Thom said:

 Though now I really want a new-kit of the TMP Enterprise, only now in 1/650!

You and I both!

 

[sh9000]

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, sh9000 said:

The difference between this and Discovery is like night and day.

The Strange New Worlds crew are gathered around the captain's chair comfortably, and they're smiling.  So many of Discovery's promotional photos are of the crew standing stiffly or sitting awkwardly together, oozing the misery and discomfort of the show's plot as they stare into the middle distance with a neutral expression like they're trying to remember whether they turned off the stove before they left home that morning and would rather be anywhere else.  Discovery's crew look like sulky teenagers reluctantly posing for a photo on a family vacation they didn't want to come on.  Anson Mount's Pike and his crew for Strange New Worlds look like they WANT to be there and are having FUN.

Like night and day.  This picture alone feels more like Star Trek than any damn thing that Kurzman, Chabon, et. al. have done since taking stewardship of the franchise.

[sh9000]

 

[Thom]

21 hours ago, sh9000 said:

There's your family, Pike!

Edited May 12, 2022 by Thom

[sh9000]

 

[Thom]

Episode 2 out of the way, and SNW continues to impress! Really liking the character interactions an story. Keep it up!

[tekering]

Anyone who knows anything about Star Trek knows this engineering section makes no sense whatsoever. 😑

It's not quite as absurd as the virtually-infinite space around the turbolift shafts, but... are we supposed to believe the only thing preventing an antimatter explosion in this warp core is an invisible forcefield? 🤨

2 hours ago, Thom said:

Really liking the character interactions an story.

While it's nice to see the characters actually interacting (something Discovery steadfastly avoided), I can't say the same for the stories...  They've been so utterly forgettable so far, I literally can't recall anything that happened in last week's pilot episode.

Of course, "forgettable" is still the best compliment I've given Star Trek in the last two decades. 😒

[Thom]

@tekering While I would like smaller sets, holding to the same dimensions as the TOS version, I am liking the aesthetics. And I've liked the first two eps. Very good, IMO. 

[tekering]

1 hour ago, Thom said:

I am liking the aesthetics.

I can appreciate how classic design elements have been incorporated into the new sets, including the shuttlecraft interiors:

But the production design hews so close to the new movie aesthetics, I just can't see why they're still clinging to the "Prime universe" setting so desperately.  Strange New Worlds would be a lot less hamstrung by established canon if were set in the Kelvin timeline.  And for that matter, why didn't they just spinoff the adventures of Pine, Quinto et.al. into a new TV series?  Would those actors really be so much more expensive than the Toronto casts they're relying on now? 🤨

[sh9000]

 

[Seto Kaiba]

21 hours ago, tekering said:

Anyone who knows anything about Star Trek knows this engineering section makes no sense whatsoever. 😑

It looks like a pretty reasonable recreation of the TOS engine room for the era of "everything is an iPod in space".

Of course, that design existed before a lot of the tropes surrounding the warp core design used in the movies, TNG, and beyond were established.

Is that ball at the back meant to be the reaction chamber in this version?  In TOS and TAS, the reaction chamber was in the middle of the main engineering room.

 

21 hours ago, tekering said:

It's not quite as absurd as the virtually-infinite space around the turbolift shafts, but... are we supposed to believe the only thing preventing an antimatter explosion in this warp core is an invisible forcefield? 🤨

Technically, an antimatter explosion is the desired result... albeit in a controlled manner... and it was magnetic fields preventing the antideuterium from coming into contact with anything except the porous dilithium and the deuterium matter stream.  So, if you really wanted, you could argue that you don't actually need anything except that invisible magnetic field to prevent a warp core containment failure.

 

21 hours ago, tekering said:

Of course, "forgettable" is still the best compliment I've given Star Trek in the last two decades. 😒

Movin' up in the world!  Another fifteen years of this flavorless pap and they might have something that would actually survive a season on broadcast.

 

12 hours ago, tekering said:

But the production design hews so close to the new movie aesthetics, I just can't see why they're still clinging to the "Prime universe" setting so desperately.  Strange New Worlds would be a lot less hamstrung by established canon if were set in the Kelvin timeline.  

Oh, that's an easy one.

There are two simple reasons that new Trek is so insistent that it belongs to the so-called "prime timelime" or "prime universe":

1. Overall, the "Kelvin timeline" movies were a commercial flop.  They ultimately finished in the red at the box office thanks to Beyond erasing the minimal gains from the other two films, and the merchandise lines for the movies fared little better.  In the eyes of investors, it's a poisoned well.
2. More importantly, the "Kelvin timeline" movies never gained a significant fan following of their own.  They succeeded in turning Star Trek into a sci-fi action movie in an effort to broaden its appeal with general audiences, but they did such a job of it that they made Star Trek into just another eminently forgettable sci-fi action movie that audiences stopped thinking about the minute they left the theater and Star Trek fans found un-Trek-like.

There's too little interest in, and too much antipathy for, the Kelvin timeline to go setting a new Star Trek series there.  It'd give them a lot more narrative freedom, but the investors wouldn't be anywhere near as confident in the pitch and they'd have portions of the target audience rejecting it sight-unseen as "not real Star Trek".

 

12 hours ago, tekering said:

And for that matter, why didn't they just spinoff the adventures of Pine, Quinto et.al. into a new TV series?  Would those actors really be so much more expensive than the Toronto casts they're relying on now? 🤨

Probably, yeah... given that their increasing appearance fees were part of what sunk movie four after Beyond spun in.  They were due for raises, and with Beyond losing money, the investors were having none of it.

[rsvictor1976]

I don't want to jinx it, but I'm liking Strange New World so far. It reminds me of the older Star Trek series where each episode is it's own standalone story. I hope they keep it this way.

[Dynaman]

> So, if you really wanted, you could argue that you don't actually need anything except that invisible magnetic field to prevent a warp core containment failure.

Not only that, anything else would be superfluous.  The force field being the only thing that would not become part of the reaction they are trying to control.

As for the movie cast doing a TV show.  Zoey Saldana would be right out with her movies at the time.  Pine a maybe (he was in a couple movies after but for the most part they have not been big money makers) and Quinto was popular for a while but he is doing voiceover work for science documentaries now so maybe he would have a reasonable salary.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, rsvictor1976 said:

It reminds me of the older Star Trek series where each episode is it's own standalone story. I hope they keep it this way.

Well, that was the goal... so at least they got that part right.

After Discovery failed to strike a chord with Trekkies due to its dismal grimdark take on the setting, they binned the planned Section 31 series that would've reused a lot of the same sets, props, and art assets.  Strange New Worlds was an author's saving throw intended to get a show out there closer in feel and tone to classic Trek that Trekkies might actually accept and allow them to get use out of the VERY expensive sets, props, and art assets made for Discovery before they moved it to the 32nd century to escape the disgust the fans and audience had for Discovery's take on the 23rd century.  It was intended to be equal parts return to form and oversized bottle show reusing huge amounts of stuff made for DSC.

 

5 hours ago, Dynaman said:

Not only that, anything else would be superfluous.  The force field being the only thing that would not become part of the reaction they are trying to control.

Yeah, the textbook definition of "warp core" is basically just one massive set of magnetic field coils and particle stream injectors all pointed at a dilithium crystal.  They put it in a nice tube so they can dump it if things go pear-shaped, but that's really all a warp core is.

 

5 hours ago, Dynaman said:

As for the movie cast doing a TV show.  Zoey Saldana would be right out with her movies at the time.  Pine a maybe (he was in a couple movies after but for the most part they have not been big money makers) and Quinto was popular for a while but he is doing voiceover work for science documentaries now so maybe he would have a reasonable salary.

One of the conditions written into their contracts was that they were entitled to a raise after movie 3... so their appearance fee would probably be pretty steep compared to what the actors working on the TV shows are getting.  The current crop of Trek shows are already some of the most expensive TV ever shot, and run over budget almost constantly, adding an even greater money pit to that would not help.

[Dynaman]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One of the conditions written into their contracts was that they were entitled to a raise after movie 3... so their appearance fee would probably be pretty steep compared to what the actors working on the TV shows are getting.  The current crop of Trek shows are already some of the most expensive TV ever shot, and run over budget almost constantly, adding an even greater money pit to that would not help.

Were the contracts for covering TV or just movie sequels.  And after movie three bombed I'm sure a renegotiation would have been done.  The contract obviously did not lock them into actually MAKING a fourth movie with the higher rates so a renegotiation was possible.  The only problem being some of them (Zoey in particular) having better prospects elsewhere.

[sh9000]

 

[Seto Kaiba]

8 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

Were the contracts for covering TV or just movie sequels. 

At the time, just movies... there were no plans for any spinoffs, side stories, or such.  Though when it comes to that kind of thing, having an actor who predominantly appears in feature films moonlight on a TV show tends to cost rather a lot, and is why when a movie gets a TV show spinoff they usually recast everyone rather than pay such extravagant salaries.

 

8 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

And after movie three bombed I'm sure a renegotiation would have been done.  The contract obviously did not lock them into actually MAKING a fourth movie with the higher rates so a renegotiation was possible.  The only problem being some of them (Zoey in particular) having better prospects elsewhere.

They tried, yeah.

Where things ran aground was on the subject of compensation.  It's fairly standard for actors reprising a regular/recurring role to receive a pay increase for each new season or sequel.  It doesn't necessarily have to be a huge one, but a higher rate is generally expected if not explicitly written into the contract itself.  Robert Beltran infamously tried to use this to get himself fired from the role he so loathed on Voyager by making increasingly outrageous demands for pay increases between seasons, only for the studio to obligingly cough up each increase without so much as a word of objection.  Chris Pine and others reportedly walked out on negotiations for reboot Trek 4 because they were told that they would have to take a pay cut instead of receiving a raise thanks to the first three films underperforming so badly that Beyond's failure put the trilogy as a whole in the red.

If they'd planned a TV series right after the first movie they might've been able to get away with it, back when Pine and the other less-established actors were only earning in the middle six figures.  Now, however, Pine's salary demands alone exceed the already ludicrously extravagant per-episode budget of Star Trek: Discovery.  Never mind when you put Zachary Quinto, Simon Pegg, and the others into that equation.  When your lead wants $10M just to show up and your per-episode budget's $8M, you're in trouble.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Though when it comes to that kind of thing, having an actor who predominantly appears in feature films moonlight on a TV show tends to cost rather a lot, and is why when a movie gets a TV show spinoff they usually recast everyone rather than pay such extravagant salaries.

It is also why Whoopi Goldberg was immediately waved away from Next Generation's auditions, and she had to explain to them that she didn't expect pay representative of her status as a popular Hollywood actress because being in Star Trek WAS the pay.

 

Sort of an inverse Chakotay gambit.

[Thom]

I'll posit that Beyond was not what tanked the reboot series, but it was the backlash over Into Darkness that was just too deep for it (Beyond) to overcome. And a lot of that backlash was from JJ openly lying about the plot and who would be in it. And that Into Darkness was just a bad rip-off of TWoK, without anything from TWoK that made it so good. Beyond was more it's own movie rather than another redo of a previous plot (other than a villain wanting to destroy Earth - again.) The only thing that I really didn't like about Beyond was their ability to make the new Enterprise look even uglier.

[Seto Kaiba]

38 minutes ago, JB0 said:

It is also why Whoopi Goldberg was immediately waved away from Next Generation's auditions, and she had to explain to them that she didn't expect pay representative of her status as a popular Hollywood actress because being in Star Trek WAS the pay.

Yeah, it's way easier and cheaper to get a TV actor on the big screen than vice versa.

 

10 minutes ago, Thom said:

I'll posit that Beyond was not what tanked the reboot series, but it was the backlash over Into Darkness that was just too deep for it (Beyond) to overcome. And a lot of that backlash was from JJ openly lying about the plot and who would be in it. And that Into Darkness was just a bad rip-off of TWoK, without anything from TWoK that made it so good. Beyond was more it's own movie rather than another redo of a previous plot (other than a villain wanting to destroy Earth - again.) The only thing that I really didn't like about Beyond was their ability to make the new Enterprise look even uglier.

Beyond was the coup de grace after the one-two punch that was Star Trek (2009) and Into Darkness... or the mercy stroke that put the fatally wounded reboot Trek movies out of the audience's misery, if you prefer. 

I'd personally argue the well was poisoned from the minute J.J. Abrams said the quiet part loud and introduced Star Trek (2009) as a reboot before being forced to course-correct into calling it an alternate universe story.  It definitely didn't help that Star Trek (2009) was a mindless summer action movie and Into Darkness was an incoherent mess.  

[JB0]

6 hours ago, Thom said:

I'll posit that Beyond was not what tanked the reboot series, but it was the backlash over Into Darkness that was just too deep for it (Beyond) to overcome. And a lot of that backlash was from JJ openly lying about the plot and who would be in it. And that Into Darkness was just a bad rip-off of TWoK, without anything from TWoK that made it so good. Beyond was more it's own movie rather than another redo of a previous plot (other than a villain wanting to destroy Earth - again.) The only thing that I really didn't like about Beyond was their ability to make the new Enterprise look even uglier.

You're probably right.

I enjoyed the first film. It had problems, but it was fun, and reasonably okay. But Into Darkness was a horrible trainwreck, and not the "so bad it's good" kind.

I had no desire whatsoever to see anything more after Into Darkness, and I got the impression a lot of people skipped Beyond for similar reasons.

[TangledThorns]

8 hours ago, JB0 said:

You're probably right.

I enjoyed the first film. It had problems, but it was fun, and reasonably okay. But Into Darkness was a horrible trainwreck, and not the "so bad it's good" kind.

I had no desire whatsoever to see anything more after Into Darkness, and I got the impression a lot of people skipped Beyond for similar reasons.

INTO DARKNESS was garbage and worse than FINAL FRONTIER imho. Seriously, JJ Abrams stills ideas from other films and re-packages them as nostalgia that is cheap and insulting.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, JB0 said:

I enjoyed the first film. It had problems, but it was fun, and reasonably okay. But Into Darkness was a horrible trainwreck, and not the "so bad it's good" kind.

The first film was... problematic.  Partly because its protagonists were unlikeable bellends who hated each other and have a very unnatural character arc thereafter, but mainly due to a huge portion of the backstory in the plot being jettisoned into a standalone limited comic that you needed to read to know WTF was going on.  Into Darkness was just a terribly lazy attempt to remake an iconic movie without understanding what actually made it so good in the first place... ending up a plot full of flat characters repeating a plot without the personal stakes the original had.

 

8 hours ago, JB0 said:

I had no desire whatsoever to see anything more after Into Darkness, and I got the impression a lot of people skipped Beyond for similar reasons.

Trekkies, maybe... I'm not sure general audiences were as put off by Into Darkness's plot problems as its general incoherency, since the movie very clearly expected us to know and care who Khan was beforehand, limiting proper understanding of the plot to Trekkies.  Beyond's attempt to course-correct back towards a more Trek-like feel probably alienated no small number of casual viewers who weren't expecting such a dramatic shift in tone.

Either way, the Kelvin timeline TV series ship sailed more or less right after Star Trek (2009) when it helped Pine and Quinto establish themselves as actors.  Past that point, their fee was simply too high for a Kelvin timeline series with the same cast as the movies to be viable.

I do think the Bad Robot/Secret Hideout folks are trying to make a Kelvin timeline series on the sly with their insistence on carrying over their work from the failed Kelvin timeline movies into the shows.  I think they're hoping it'll catch on, and rescue the Kelvin movies from the fandom's sh*t list, because I doubt they're happy with the fandom mocking the movies as much as they do.  (Especially the lens flares.)

[Lolicon]

Star Trek V is enjoyably bad.

Into Darkness and The Motionless Picture are the only two Trek movies I can't rewatch. TMP because it's so damn boring and ID for just being so incredibly stupid and bad, but not in the "so bad it's good" way that The Final Frontier is.

I never liked the Kelvin cast. Pine-Kirk is an entitled and arrogant SOB but without the actual awesomeness that made Kirk great. Quinto-Spock is a goddamn lunatic. Ethan Pecs is a much better Spock (so far at least).

Anyway, I'm liking SNW so far. I think it's the best live action Trek show since DS9 (which isn't a particularly high bar).

I'm glad to see that the whiny & pedantic self-appointed arbiters of "real Trek" who treat TOS as some kind of holy writ appear to be in the minority regarding SNW.

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The first film was... problematic.  Partly because its protagonists were unlikeable bellends who hated each other and have a very unnatural character arc thereafter, but mainly due to a huge portion of the backstory in the plot being jettisoned into a standalone limited comic that you needed to read to know WTF was going on.  Into Darkness was just a terribly lazy attempt to remake an iconic movie without understanding what actually made it so good in the first place... ending up a plot full of flat characters repeating a plot without the personal stakes the original had.

To me, they were more a badly-done parody of the TOS characters (unfunny ones at that) that magnified the bad parts and left out the good ones.

As for Into Darkness, that had the title correct: they were pretty much in the dark the whole blasted time about what made Star Trek work to begin with.

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Trekkies, maybe... I'm not sure general audiences were as put off by Into Darkness's plot problems as its general incoherency, since the movie very clearly expected us to know and care who Khan was beforehand, limiting proper understanding of the plot to Trekkies.  Beyond's attempt to course-correct back towards a more Trek-like feel probably alienated no small number of casual viewers who weren't expecting such a dramatic shift in tone.

Pretty much, they were flailing back and forth after they found out that their take on TOS was DOA.

 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Either way, the Kelvin timeline TV series ship sailed more or less right after Star Trek (2009) when it helped Pine and Quinto establish themselves as actors.  Past that point, their fee was simply too high for a Kelvin timeline series with the same cast as the movies to be viable.

I do think the Bad Robot/Secret Hideout folks are trying to make a Kelvin timeline series on the sly with their insistence on carrying over their work from the failed Kelvin timeline movies into the shows.  I think they're hoping it'll catch on, and rescue the Kelvin movies from the fandom's sh*t list, because I doubt they're happy with the fandom mocking the movies as much as they do. 

I think Admiral Clancy's comment to Picard would serve well here concerning Bad Robot and their crew.

 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(Especially the lens flares.)

Lens flare in the JJprise series: "Hey! What if we put photon torpedoes inside the ship?! Huh? Wouldn't that just be so kewllllllllllll?"

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

To me, they were more a badly-done parody of the TOS characters (unfunny ones at that) that magnified the bad parts and left out the good ones.

A big part of the problem there... and indeed with most post-Enterprise Star Trek prior to Strange New Worlds... was that the writers seem to consistently forget that Starfleet officers have to graduate from a multi-year Starfleet Academy training program before they're even granted a commission and that command of a starship is the culmination of a decade(s) long career of exceptional service.  Pine!Kirk never even properly graduated from Starfleet Academy, he just stowed away on a training cruise and somehow got made captain of the ship over the heads of nearly 500 better-qualified candidates.

Strange New Worlds, at least, seems committed to presenting a less asinine version of Starfleet where the officers are actually properly trained professionals and not a pack of rowdy fratboys turned loose on the galaxy.  One very smart thing to do right off the bat was establish that Pike had been April's first officer aboard the Enterprise, meaning that the reason he's so comfortable in the center seat is he'd already logged a good five-plus years aboard ship before being made her captain.  Having Kirk there also makes a certain sort of sense given that it'd establish his own familiarity with the ship prior to being made its captain after Pike's tour ended.

If nothing else, Strange New Worlds feels like the writers actually had to watch a few episodes of Star Trek before being allowed to write it.  The same absolutely cannot be said of previous attempts like Picard or Discovery...

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

A big part of the problem there... and indeed with most post-Enterprise Star Trek prior to Strange New Worlds... was that the writers seem to consistently forget that Starfleet officers have to graduate from a multi-year Starfleet Academy training program before they're even granted a commission and that command of a starship is the culmination of a decade(s) long career of exceptional service.  Pine!Kirk never even properly graduated from Starfleet Academy, he just stowed away on a training cruise and somehow got made captain of the ship over the heads of nearly 500 better-qualified candidates.

Strange New Worlds, at least, seems committed to presenting a less asinine version of Starfleet where the officers are actually properly trained professionals and not a pack of rowdy fratboys turned loose on the galaxy.  One very smart thing to do right off the bat was establish that Pike had been April's first officer aboard the Enterprise, meaning that the reason he's so comfortable in the center seat is he'd already logged a good five-plus years aboard ship before being made her captain.  Having Kirk there also makes a certain sort of sense given that it'd establish his own familiarity with the ship prior to being made its captain after Pike's tour ended.

If nothing else, Strange New Worlds feels like the writers actually had to watch a few episodes of Star Trek before being allowed to write it.  The same absolutely cannot be said of previous attempts like Picard or Discovery...

^Ladies and gentlemen, the above needs to be required reading for ALL script-writers for any Star Trek show/ move from this point on.

[sh9000]

 

[Magnus]

Two episodes in, and I’m pleasantly surprised by SNW.  It still has its flaws (Trump caused WW3, you can’t transport someone from the Earth up to orbit but you CAN transport a liquid into someone’s right eye?), but they’ve been much more muted than I expected.  The actors for Pike, Spock and Una REALLY help sell the show and overcome the weird technical/pacing issues.  The cast seem to all be pretty likable so far, although between Una, La'an and Ortegas, we seem to have a lot of overlap of "strong, competitive, woman", and I think they'll need to differentiate their personalities a bit more in the future.  Also, i'm guessing we're all waiting for that one episode where Ortegas reveals she has a girlfriend right?  It seems pretty stereotypical.  Anyway, the return to “one-off” stories makes the show feel more authentic than anything we’ve seen since 2009.  The start of any new show is rough, but if they’ve already been able to deliver decent content, then I actually have some hope for future episodes.

One thing that struck me is that twice now they’ve hinted that Pike’s fate may not be set in stone.  I was a bit puzzled in the first episode as to why he just didn’t sit in his cabin for the rest of his life, but the explanation of him knowing that his sacrifice saves the lives of those specific cadets, and it’s something he’s committed to do, helps explain away him not running head-first into enemy fire naked screaming “I’m invincible!  I don’t die for another decade!”.   I don’t know about others, but I’d personally be fine with it if they DID have Pike change his fate and avoid getting crippled.  Sure, we’d be entering alternate universe territory but I think most fans already treat Kurtzmann-trek as one anyway, and it would show that the writers are willing to take some big risks to deviate from the expected outcome and to see what happens after.  Episode 3 is a standard “plague” episode, which have never been my favourite story trope, but let’s see how it goes.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Magnus

[tekering]

4 hours ago, Lolicon said:

Quinto-Spock is a goddamn lunatic.

Only because he was written that way.  After Kirk's death in Into Darkness, he had to take over as the action hero.

4 hours ago, Lolicon said:

Ethan Pecs is a much better Spock (so far at least).

I'm not feeling it.  Quinto-Spock had Leonard Nimoy to play off of, and it was easy to accept Quinto as a younger version of Prime Spock (at least in the first film)...

Ethan Peck, on the other hand, is playing a character firmly established as Michael Burnham's little brother. 😒

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Magnus said:

Two episodes in, and I’m pleasantly surprised by SNW.  It still has its flaws (Trump caused WW3, you can’t transport someone from the Earth up to orbit but you CAN transport a liquid into someone’s right eye?), but they’ve been much more muted than I expected.  The actors for Pike, Spock and Una REALLY help sell the show and overcome the weird technical/pacing issues.  The cast seem to all be pretty likable so far, although between Una, La'an and Ortegas, we seem to have a lot of overlap of "strong, competitive, woman", and I think they'll need to differentiate their personalities a bit more in the future.  Also, i'm guessing we're all waiting for that one episode where Ortegas reveals she has a girlfriend right?  It seems pretty stereotypical.  Anyway, the return to “one-off” stories makes the show feel more authentic than anything we’ve seen since 2009.  The start of any new show is rough, but if they’ve already been able to deliver decent content, then I actually have some hope for future episodes.

One thing that struck me is that twice now they’ve hinted that Pike’s fate may not be set in stone.  I was a bit puzzled in the first episode as to why he just didn’t sit in his cabin for the rest of his life, but the explanation of him knowing that his sacrifice saves the lives of those specific cadets, and it’s something he’s committed to do, helps explain away him not running head-first into enemy fire naked screaming “I’m invincible!  I don’t die for another decade!”.   I don’t know about others, but I’d personally be fine with it if they DID have Pike change his fate and avoid getting crippled.  Sure, we’d be entering alternate universe territory but I think most fans already treat Kurtzmann-trek as one anyway, and it would show that the writers are willing to take some big risks to deviate from the expected outcome and to see what happens after.  Episode 3 is a standard “plague” episode, which have never been my favourite story trope, but let’s see how it goes.

I tbelieve they were saying the overall conflict caused WWIII, as they showed a bunch of riot scenes. I think the intent was that things got way out of control in general and led to the Eugenics Wars, which led to WWIII.

(note to mods: no attempt intended to make a political statement here. please nuke my first comment if I erred. )

As for Pike: one way he could avoid his fate is a transporter accident like the one that created Thomas Riker. I'd be okay with it if Pike had a double that took over while him and Una quietly left to go live in Montana.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, tekering said:

Only because he was written that way.  After Kirk's death in Into Darkness, he had to take over as the action hero.

I'm not feeling it.  Quinto-Spock had Leonard Nimoy to play off of, and it was easy to accept Quinto as a younger version of Prime Spock (at least in the first film)...

Ethan Peck, on the other hand, is playing a character firmly established as Michael Burnham's little brother. 😒

Either way, Spock's got a long way to go to redeem himself in the audience's eyes.

 

 

12 hours ago, Magnus said:

The cast seem to all be pretty likable so far, although between Una, La'an and Ortegas, we seem to have a lot of overlap of "strong, competitive, woman", and I think they'll need to differentiate their personalities a bit more in the future.

Give it a character-focus episode or two and they should come into their own a bit.

Mind you, basically anyone serving aboard a ship like the Enterprise is "strong" and "competitive" almost by default.  Strange New Worlds may be set before the adventures of Kirk's five year mission made the Enterprise a legend and the most sought-after posting in the fleet, but the twelve Constitution-class ships were the apex of Starfleet's prestige in the era both in terms of their importance and their relative luxury.  Only the very best got posted to them.  If you weren't competitive and a real go-getter, you'd never land the posting on one.

A ship full of "strong, competitive women" was a bit less understandable in the case of the Discovery, a rear-echelon science ship... though given that "strong" in the Discovery's case seems to mean "damaged and mildly psychotic", that may have been intentional on Lorca's part.

 

12 hours ago, Magnus said:

Also, i'm guessing we're all waiting for that one episode where Ortegas reveals she has a girlfriend right?  It seems pretty stereotypical.

'lil bit, yeah.  I'm hoping they'll be more subtle about it this time.

Star Trek has always been diverse and inclusive, but it works so much better when you DON'T throw it in the audience's face all the time.  It's like a Bavarian fire drill in a way.  If you just act like nothing unusual is going on, it'll take the audience that much longer to really think about or question it and you'll have sent a more powerful message about inclusivity: that a better, brighter future would be inclusive enough that there wouldn't be anything remarkable about the lifestyles of these characters.  It worked a treat in TOS with Chekhov, Sulu, and Uhura.  A black woman in a position of high military authority?  Russians and Japanese working side by side with Americans?  There's nothing unusual about that here, no sir.  Did pretty well in DS9 when you consider that Jadzia Dax was lowkey nonbinary, genderfluid, or trans too.

Discovery flubbed it with Stamets and Culber by crowing about it well in advance and then having them remind the audience at every opportunity that they're gay.  They did better with Reno, but botched it again with Tal.

 

12 hours ago, Magnus said:

One thing that struck me is that twice now they’ve hinted that Pike’s fate may not be set in stone.  I was a bit puzzled in the first episode as to why he just didn’t sit in his cabin for the rest of his life, but the explanation of him knowing that his sacrifice saves the lives of those specific cadets, and it’s something he’s committed to do, helps explain away him not running head-first into enemy fire naked screaming “I’m invincible!  I don’t die for another decade!”.

It's the same kind of cheap fake-out as Pike's refusal to return to service at the start of the first episode, just on a larger scale.

The audience already knows it's a foregone conclusion that Pike ends up a vegetable in a space wheelchair... not just because of TOS, but because Discovery also confirmed that his fate was inescapable and his future set in stone by taking the time crystal.  They're just trying to preserve exactly the vibe you got... that he might not be doomed... so the series as a whole doesn't feel like an exercise in futility.

By all indications, Pike is temporally bulletproof and fate will tie itself in knots to ensure he ends up on that training mission and in that chair.

 

8 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I tbelieve they were saying the overall conflict caused WWIII, as they showed a bunch of riot scenes. I think the intent was that things got way out of control in general and led to the Eugenics Wars, which led to WWIII.

Pretty much, yeah.

The current line on the Eugenics Wars is that they were kind of a lowkey conflict taking place mainly in the Middle East and the Asia-Pacific region, the lingering tensions from which eventually combined with the socio-economic inequality previously depicted in DS9 "Past Tense" to explode into mass civil unrest that snowballed into a third World War.  They just tied a few contemporary movements into that existing framework.

 

8 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

As for Pike: one way he could avoid his fate is a transporter accident like the one that created Thomas Riker. I'd be okay with it if Pike had a double that took over while him and Una quietly left to go live in Montana.

I don't think Christopher Pike is the kind of man to actually live a lowkey life long-term.  He seems, like Kirk, to be a bit of an adrenaline junkie who would be absolutely miserable away from "the action".

[sh9000]

 

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Either way, Spock's got a long way to go to redeem himself in the audience's eyes.

Hopefully, they give him that opportunity in the coming episodes.

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Mind you, basically anyone serving aboard a ship like the Enterprise is "strong" and "competitive" almost by default.  Strange New Worlds may be set before the adventures of Kirk's five year mission made the Enterprise a legend and the most sought-after posting in the fleet, but the twelve Constitution-class ships were the apex of Starfleet's prestige in the era both in terms of their importance and their relative luxury.  Only the very best got posted to them.  If you weren't competitive and a real go-getter, you'd never land the posting on one.

Only the best serve on the best: another reason I disliked PineKirk. He only demonstrated an aptitude for utter bs and booze, not the critical thinkiing, tactical, command and strategic skills that were a hallmark of James T. Kirk. JJtrek's version of the Kobiyashi Maru looked more like a frathouse prank than the tactics of a clever cadet who was serious about graduating.

And I think that's why Prime Kirk got a commendation while PineKirk nearly got court-martialed: presentation and attitude.  I would think those would go a long way when it comes to giving someone the benefit of the doubt.

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

A ship full of "strong, competitive women" was a bit less understandable in the case of the Discovery, a rear-echelon science ship... though given that "strong" in the Discovery's case seems to mean "damaged and mildly psychotic", that may have been intentional on Lorca's part.

More like "obstinate and contrarian" in the case of Discovery; maybe Starfleet put them there to get them out of everyone else's hair! lol

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's the same kind of cheap fake-out as Pike's refusal to return to service at the start of the first episode, just on a larger scale.

 

 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The audience already knows it's a foregone conclusion that Pike ends up a vegetable in a space wheelchair... not just because of TOS, but because Discovery also confirmed that his fate was inescapable and his future set in stone by taking the time crystal.  They're just trying to preserve exactly the vibe you got... that he might not be doomed... so the series as a whole doesn't feel like an exercise in futility.

By all indications, Pike is temporally bulletproof and fate will tie itself in knots to ensure he ends up on that training mission and in that chair.

So what happens if Burnham breaks the crystal in the future? Does that undo everything?

Sorry... just hate to see ol' Chris end up a melty briquette in a hoverchair.

 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Pretty much, yeah.

The current line on the Eugenics Wars is that they were kind of a lowkey conflict taking place mainly in the Middle East and the Asia-Pacific region, the lingering tensions from which eventually combined with the socio-economic inequality previously depicted in DS9 "Past Tense" to explode into mass civil unrest that snowballed into a third World War.  They just tied a few contemporary movements into that existing framework.

Right: it sounds like the varying conflicts merged together as they grew, until it became a world war.

 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I don't think Christopher Pike is the kind of man to actually live a lowkey life long-term.  He seems, like Kirk, to be a bit of an adrenaline junkie who would be absolutely miserable away from "the action".

You do have a point; that said, being confined to a hoverchair as a virtual vegetable has got to be the worst kind of hell for a man like him. I think his mind was still fairly clear, though his body was irreparably broken.