rpg Macross/Robotech RPG by Strange Machine Games

[Macross GURU]

Apparently after the Robotech RPG Tactics debacle and subsequent loss of the Robotech/Macross IP from HG, Strange Machine Games now has the SDF-M/RT IP and has released a new RPG using their Advantage 6 (AD6) system.  I have a copy and so far I like it. It isn't hard to make adjustments to run SDF Macross games, just change some terminology.  An ebook copy can bought at RPG DriveThru. I'm strongly thinking of making some fan supplements for the RPG so GMs and Players can run games within other eras of the Macross canon (yes even the alternate universe of Macross II). Of course none of the RPGs mechanics or components can be published in the fan supplement except for stats and components not in the core book.  

Robotech RPG by SMG

 

So what do you guys think?

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[Edit] General Review:

I've analyzed the game after a run and mostly theory play, the game works mostly on the narrative style rather then simulation. Although there are various optional rule that allow for more simulation style play and high legality modes. The general mechanics are: Narrative > Conflict > Resolve > Narrative.  Most RPGs operate or are supposed to operate in this fashion.

Robotech by Palladium attempts to use a more direct direct approach to Simulation leaving the Narrative to abstract conflicts with some conflict resolution conducted with the use of skills.  Much like how D&D works, the characters have stats that represent the physical and mental capabilities of the character. Skills and combat are derived off of those stats. This a stat derivative simulation where the data drives the character. When is comes to combat everything has a large number of damage points to represent the material health of an object. Although in Palladium there are some system consistency issues, largely it is ruled by the Mega Damage system and concept where a certain material cannot be damaged unless the weapon also deals mega damage. This, although not ideal, is fine for simulation of large advanced vehicles and assets. The biggest complaint with the mega damage system is number bloat for damage which tends to bog down the flow of game play. The other complaint I often hear is that Palladium is that resolution of conflict, especially in combat in where large numbers of combatants are present, aren't handled too well. The refers  to swarms, as seen with tens of battle pods. This leads to numbers bloat and upkeep bog down during combat. Many shortcuts have to be created by the GM to resolve such battles.  

In Robotech by SMG, the system is much different. The game is described as a hybrid of narrative and simulation conflict resolution. There isn't any attribute stats to generate, as it is assumed that you are generally competent in the role you are playing. You are a hero after all. Instead of a series of derived stats there is a skill system. These skills are derived by the role the player has selected. Level of competency with in skills are regulated by a simple priority system. This ranges from Specialized, Focused, to Versatile.  These skills are used for all conflict resolution. The two types of conflict are Social and Combative. The system, at first glance, seems very simple, especially to those who are used to such systems as D20 and Mega Damage systems which are very simulation based. The system is designed to handle conflict resolution at a quick pace preventing choke points where upkeep bogs things down. This accomplishes many things: allows players who aren't familiar with the system to quickly generate a character, prevent people from becoming disinterested when bog down occurs while waiting for their turn, and maintain flow of the story and game. Combat in A6 Robotech is much like how the narrative role play works. Damage is more system function oriented and complete destruction of vehicles don't always happen. It comes down to what the character is doing or how they are behaving that dictates if they parish or not. This is the narrative aspect. Where as the system damage and structure points are a set of indicators to dictate the condition of the vehicle before it can no longer engage in the conflict and limps away damaged. The combat system has a few optional rules to increase and decrease lethality and also rules to make the game more narrative or more simulation based. 

You can pretty much say that SMG's A6 system is a middle ground between Palladium's simulation style Mega Damage system, and Mongoose Publishing's Paranoia which is solely a narrative system. I often compare A6 Robotech (A6 being the system that Strange Machine Games [SMG] uses) to Paranoia because of the narrative element and conflict resolution. Although, Paranoia's conflict resolution is handled by the whims of the GM and dice rolls are largely superficial. A6 Robotech keeps structured elements as seen in simulation based systems and unites it with narrative role playing. 

I have game-mastered many games in Palladium's system and in Paranoia. I personally like how this game works. It can feel over simplified at first, but the depth is created by the players though the system of skills, traits, career, nature, and stress which all guide its narrative play. I feel the system really fits with the Macross story narrative, and beside the nomenclature difference which is easily corrected by a GM that knows the pure Macross canon, can easily run games that have a genuine Macross feel. 

Overall, it doesn't matter what system you use whether it is Palladium, Advantage 6 [A6], or whatever system you want to run your game in, how well your game is played is up to the GM.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Macross GURU

[Bolt]

Looks interesting. Just started RPG's w my son. Mostly D&D. Will eventually get into other stuff. 

This looks really cool..

[Seto Kaiba]

Eh... I gave the Strange Machine Games Robotech RPG open beta a whirl a while back and found it pretty unremarkable.

I remember thinking it was a pretty poor effort even for a Robotech product.  It's not a bad system, but IMO it was even less suitable for replicting the feel of the Macross (or Robotech) setting than Palladium Books's old system is... and that' system wasn't any prize either.  Most people who buy it will probably end up using it to run Macross games, though, so if you want to put in the effort then I would say it's safe to say it won't go to waste.

Personally, I'm not going to buy a copy because it's Robotech-branded and supports Harmony Gold's efforts to block Macross from markets worldwide.  Even if those efforts aren't as fruitful as they used to be, I'm not about to give them any money that they could spend on lawsuits or on trying to hold on their license a little longer.  The sooner they fold, the better.

[Bolt]

Ya, i agree  w @Seto Kaiba . hg ( or anyone else they're giving licenses to) isn't getting my money for the same reasons. I still have all my old palladium collection if or when i wanna go there. It worked fine enough for casual play.

[Macross GURU]

7 hours ago, Bolt said:

Ya, i agree  w @Seto Kaiba . hg ( or anyone else they're giving licenses to) isn't getting my money for the same reasons. I still have all my old palladium collection if or when i wanna go there. It worked fine enough for casual play.

 

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... I gave the Strange Machine Games Robotech RPG open beta a whirl a while back and found it pretty unremarkable.

I remember thinking it was a pretty poor effort even for a Robotech product.  It's not a bad system, but IMO it was even less suitable for replicting the feel of the Macross (or Robotech) setting than Palladium Books's old system is... and that' system wasn't any prize either.  Most people who buy it will probably end up using it to run Macross games, though, so if you want to put in the effort then I would say it's safe to say it won't go to waste.

Personally, I'm not going to buy a copy because it's Robotech-branded and supports Harmony Gold's efforts to block Macross from markets worldwide.  Even if those efforts aren't as fruitful as they used to be, I'm not about to give them any money that they could spend on lawsuits or on trying to hold on their license a little longer.  The sooner they fold, the better.

 

This game is more about narrative style of play which I feel encompasses the story aspect of Macross rather then trying to quantify cold hard stats. Yes Palladium is only what we've known for many years, so many are biased by it. After many years of playing Macross games  Palladium was terrible for this style of story telling. I've played though the final product and it feels far more cinematic. I really like how my game played out like a Macross series and the interactions between characters seemed richer. Combat is fairly basic but I like the more abstract systems and components damage rather then 1000 hit points and all the stat bloat. It felt quick and more cinematic. I have to say this style isn't for everyone. Much like Paranoia, this game requires a GM that really knows what they are doing.

The nice thing I like about this book is that they credit Shoji Kawamori, Haruhiko Mikimoto, and others involved in the making of Macross. 

Unfortunately, HG got the rights renewed. HG is a company that won't go away. Most of their money comes from property holdings, real estate, and other properties. Macross is just a thing they claim rights to. Yes, they are jerks. They are a company with poor ethical compass. Sadly, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

So with that in mind I'd rather support s company that is currently holding the IP for RPGs and is doing it well rather then supporta a company that screws over their kick starter subscribers and has the same personal and ethical issues as its licensee. Palladium is a mess.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Macross GURU

[Bolt]

8 hours ago, Macross GURU said:

The nice thing I like about this book is that they credit Shoji Kawamori, Haruhiko Mikimoto, and others involved in the making of Macross. 

I'm glad to hear these guys did that.

8 hours ago, Macross GURU said:

So with that in mind I'd rather support s company that is currently holding the IP for RPGs and is doing it well rather then supporta a company that screws over their kick starter subscribers and has the same personal and ethical issues as its licensee. Palladium is a mess.

It's good to know there are still people out there making and playing RPG's in this digital carnival we now live in.  I myself don't want to mingle in hg's aftershave. I also don't plan on buying any new RPG systems, as i already have a library of books from multiple genres that i bought and paid for decades ago. No need to reinvent the wheel for me. 

But good on you for supporting someone you feel is doing good. I hope you enjoy them. Feel free to post more about the game play and mechanics as you play this.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Bolt

[sketchley]

If you can figure out a way to convert stats from Palladium to this system, my site has a bucket load of Macross stats ready to go: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics.php

 

We were dabbling with creating a "generic" character creation system (a compromise between Paladium and Mekton).  While it probably isn't useful as is, it should be able to provide a guide to what works and what doesn't when figuring out how to do the conversions: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics/character/GCGS/GCGSmain.php

[Macross GURU]

14 hours ago, sketchley said:

If you can figure out a way to convert stats from Palladium to this system, my site has a bucket load of Macross stats ready to go: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics.php

 

We were dabbling with creating a "generic" character creation system (a compromise between Paladium and Mekton).  While it probably isn't useful as is, it should be able to provide a guide to what works and what doesn't when figuring out how to do the conversions: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics/character/GCGS/GCGSmain.php

Hi @sketchley, I'm using my own conversation using @Mr March's database as reference. Any another Macross reference I can find. All I need is the size, mass, thrust, velocity  and  any other relevant details. I have a pretty good handle on the mecha since I've been doing this for over 20 years. Your resources will still be helpful. 

The way the system works, there isn't a conversation that can be made, directly anyway. It is more of a narrative, descriptive rpg. The combat is dice pool based kind of like shadowrun. The stress system tracking drama and fatigue is pretty good.

Here is a basic break down of combat. I have a dice pool of 4; I roll 4 six sides and get a result of  4, 4, 5, 6.  Two 4s are equal to one success, one 5 is equal to one success and one 6 is equal to two successes.  That gives me a total of 4 successes. My target has 2 armor and 2 structure. The 2 armor negates 2 of my successes and leaves 2 successes to take out the structure. My target doesn't want to die, so instead he sacrifices an arm, and a leg to absorb the damage. He can still fight not, just as well, but he can. The GM gives the target a -1 penalty to his dice pool because he can't maneuver very well.  Now if the target had decided to defend for his second action instead of attacking two other members in your party, the armor rating would be higher by a success or two from all the maneuvering. This is a very basic description of the combat, but as you can see damage is handled more abstractly, rather than literally quantified. 

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Macross GURU

[Macross GURU]

Added a basic/quick review of the system to the OP.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Macross GURU

[Roy Focker]

I recently pick up the Savage Worlds version of this game.  I also watched a long review of this SMG on YouTube and looked over some preview files.  I think the Savage Worlds and the SMG seem to have a lot of overlap.  Both use of the same art work and I think even text.  A SMG logo is on the back cover of the Savage World's version.   Now let me start with my first complaint. 

Did they even review the source material?  I've been finding fandom facts over actual facts.  For example the PDF preview of SMG says Miriya was the one who shot Roy.  Watch the episode.  By the time Roy it shot she has already been engaged with Max.  The Savage World's even has to over explain that humans have funky hair styles and colors because of technology found on the crashed SDF-1.   What wrong saying funky hair is just a trait of anime?   It doesn't need to be explained.  The authors of these games seemed to have been heavily influenced by the previous game, novels and long term internet fan beliefs.   Way back in the 1980's and 1990 our access to re-watch Robotech when ever we wanted was somewhat limited.  Opinions were formed based on secondary source material.  Even now decades later when you can watch any episode of Robotech online these opinions still popup.

SMG system is different and looks complex for no reason.  Mecha fans tend to be tech heads.  They like numbers and stats.  When I think systems of mecha gaming I don't really think about a narrative one.  I'm the type who likes to flip right the character and vehicle writes up any game I pickup.  With SMG there's no instant understanding of what all these stats mean.  Rick Hunter has skills like Flash Move, Rally Cry and talents like Lion's Roar.  There's no way understand any of it without reading more.  Take a first look at character write up with a traditional game and you read things like use Microwave Oven 10 and Animal Balloons 11.  You might not understand how to play the game but by just looking at the stats you'll know this character ability to make Animal Balloons is slightly better than their ability to use the microwave.  I've also got problems with any system that makes you rolls dice in which you don't just add the numbers up.   If I place 2 players who have zero knowledge of any RPG, give them both 2D6 and roll them in a contest against each other both players will assume the highest roll wins.  Neither will think to ask things like do my double 2s count more than his 2 & 3?

The Savage World version is a more traditional game.  I only read it once and haven't test it or really compared the stats among the various mecha.  I have an earlier version of the core worlds.  I've liked what I've seen with that system.  It is very simple to learn.  Roll a dice (ranging from 1D4 to 1D12) if you roll 4 or higher you succeed.  The only system gimmick is that you use a deck of standard playing cards to see who goes first.  After collecting scores of books I keep finding myself liking simple systems with few gimmicks as the older I get.

I do like the art they both use.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Roy Focker said:

Did they even review the source material?  I've been finding fandom facts over actual facts.  For example the PDF preview of SMG says Miriya was the one who shot Roy.  Watch the episode.  By the time Roy it shot she has already been engaged with Max.  The Savage World's even has to over explain that humans have funky hair styles and colors because of technology found on the crashed SDF-1.   What wrong saying funky hair is just a trait of anime?   It doesn't need to be explained.  The authors of these games seemed to have been heavily influenced by the previous game, novels and long term internet fan beliefs.

Probably not... at least, not in any depth.  Harmony Gold stopped exercising the editorial powers it wrote into its post-reboot licenses after its management pulled the plug on Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles just one episode into a four part OVA and defunded the development of future animated Robotech works.  That editorial oversight is why the first few volumes of Palladium's Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game actually managed to be pretty accurate to the source material, and the lack of that oversight is why the last two books in Palladium's "2nd Edition" Robotech game and Strange Machine's Robotech game are such a mess.

[Macross GURU]

6 hours ago, Roy Focker said:

Did they even review the source material?

It didn't look as though they did. I saw a ton of obvious mistakes even to Robotech. They didn't even use real life terms like FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) which is a system they actually use in real life and in Macross.

 

6 hours ago, Roy Focker said:

SMG system is different and looks complex for no reason.  

I thought it was overly simple. My gripe was that any skill could be used for almost anything. There wasn't a set of specialized skills for combat or social or technical. Saying that the system was a little to similar to FEMAS (Fast Engagement Mecha And Sci-Fi), a system I've been working on as a general open source system that uses some similar mechanics to Shadowrun 3rd edition but has some similar concepts from Shadowrun 4/5 and d20. I liked the play though in SMG but I feel that FEMAS would do it a lot better. It was eerie that they had a stress tracking system similar to mine but not quite identical. I haven't even competed FEMAS yet so there is no way they had copied it, and now that SMG released theirs, I am reserved to release my open source version. 

 

7 hours ago, Roy Focker said:

Mecha fans tend to be tech heads. 

Not true. My wife loves Macross and mecha anime, but she doesn't like overly complicated systems. She likes better character development and stat derivatives, which I felt SMG was lacking. Mecha combat could have been better. There again kinda similar to my system where armor values are used as part of target numbers, except I have a speed/velocity system and the action system is based on the pilot or combat skill. Another thing there isn't anything to quantify what a character could do without a skill. Someone who doesn't have say 'acrobatics' as a skill should at least be able to do a test against a target number to climb over a fence, even if they're not good at it, this would be in the base stats. Another thing I felt was missing was a perk and flaw system which could have fleshed out the character development aspect. 

 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Harmony Gold stopped exercising the editorial powers it wrote into its post-reboot licenses after its management pulled the plug on Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles just one episode into a four part OVA and defunded the development of future animated Robotech works.

Well that says a lot for their future with the branding and confirms that HG is merely a properties company that only wants to monopolize on a property and have power over it. 

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, Macross GURU said:

Well that says a lot for their future with the branding and confirms that HG is merely a properties company that only wants to monopolize on a property and have power over it. 

Well, yes... though, to be honest, that Harmony Gold is no longer exercising that creative oversight is likely to hurt the market for Strange Machine's Robotech RPG somewhat.

A Robotech role-playing game isn't something that has much appeal outside of the most dedicated circles of Robotech fans, and one of the weirder things about Robotech's fans is that most of the fans who buy the books for an official licensed Robotech RPG have no intention of ever playing the game.  A lot of the RPG book sales are actually fans buying them to use them as ersatz reference books because, until very recently, the franchise never had anything like a proper artbook or official encyclopedia.  If the info in the book is blatantly incorrect, that could put a pretty big dent in sales among that non-gamer majority who buy them as reference books.

[Bolt]

To buy a Robotech rpg as a substitute for a proper art book or encyclopedia is absurd. Granted rpg's usually come with cool artwork and plenty of mecha stats. I never , ever considered any of it to hold water. A poor substitute indeed.

To be fair, as long as the art is good and the stats make sense and the game system flows well. It can certainly be worth playing...

 

[Roy Focker]

Warning This a Long Post

Had a chance to looks over the stats for the Savage World's version of this game.  SMG seems to be a co-publisher.  With this post I'm looking how it can do animate accurate mecha combat.  In order to play the game you need a copy of the rule book.  I'm using the 2nd edition rules.  Later edition might correct a few things that I'm unaware of. I'm no expert on this system but I'm well experienced with RPG in general..

 

I'll begin first with some game terms,

 

AP (Armor Piercing): The number of Armor Points that a weapon ignores.

 

Toughness: The target number a weapon needs to make in order to damage a vehicle.   Any Armor points are included in the Toughness and indicated in parentheses.

 

Damage: The dice are rolled as listed.

 

All dice rolls (including damage) are open-ended.  If you roll the highest number on a die you can keep rolling and adding it as you keep rolling the highest number.  A more accurate attack can give damage bonus too.  For the sake of these examples we’ll assume that all combatants rolled normal dice values without any extra bonuses for good rolling.

 

I’ll be comparing Toughness values against Damage for the VF-1, Regult & Tomahawk.

 

VF-1

Toughness: 18 (Armor 4)

GU-11 Damage: 3D8 (AP 6)

 

Regult

Toughness: 18 (Armor

Particle Cannons: 3D10+2 (AP 10)

 

Tomahawk

Toughness: 43 (Armor 25)

Beam Guns (arms): 4D8 (AP 10)

 

GU-11 vs Regult

Scoring multiple hits from burst fire is possible.  For these examples we’ll assume only one rounds hits.  With an AP value of 6 the GU-11 ignores 6 out of the Regult’s 8 Armor points.   We roll 3D8 against the adjusted Toughness value of 12.   Dice range for this roll is 3 to 24.   Scoring a hit against the Regult’s Toughness that can cause damage is possible.

 

Regult’s Beam Cannons vs VF-1

With an AP value of 10 the Beam Cannon ignores 10 out of the VF-1’s 4 Armor points.   We roll 3D10+2 against the adjusted Toughness value of 14.   Dice range for this roll is 5 to 32.   Scoring a hit against the VF-1’s Toughness that can cause damage is possible.

 

As you can see a VF-1 & Regult can trade shoots that sometimes cause damage and sometimes not.  Things fall apart with the Tomahawk.

 

Regult’s Beam Cannon vs Tomahawk

With an AP value of 10 the Beam Cannon ignores 10 out of the Tomahawk’s 25 Armor points.   We roll 3D10+2 against the adjusted Toughness value of 33.   Dice range for this roll is 5 to 32.   Scoring a hit against the Tomahawk’s Toughness that can cause damage is nearly impossible.  The Regult would have to have rolled a “10” on at least one of those 1D10 in order to get bonus dice for a chance at damage the Tomahawk. 

 

Every 4 points you roll against the Toughness Value will cause a wound.  If a Vehicle suffers 4 wounds total is it considered wrecked.  It is possible to destroy a Vehicle from a single wound by rolling for that result on a damage location table.  With Human vs Human non-vehicle combat a single wound can put any cannon fodder character out of the fight.  My version of the rule book (2^nd edition) doesn’t say if this applies to vehicles or not.  Looking back at the GU-11 vs Regult.   As you can see with a damage value range of 3 to 24 the GU-11 can not only damage a Regult it can cause multiple wounds have a single shot.  A Regult is going a have a very hard time scoring any damage against the Tomahawk.  There are Destroids with weaker and stronger Toughness numbers.

 

The belief that Destroids should be very hard to hurt is a mistaken belief that has been around since Palladium Books Robotech RPG was first released.   We compare Destroids to a Tanks and treated them the same way - a heavily armored power house.  If you watch the animation a Destroid's ability to absorb an attack from a Regult is about the same as VF-1’s ability.  High Damage capacity numbers vs low weapon damage numbers was a big problem with Palladium’s Robotech.  It took forever destroy Mecha without using a bunch of missiles.  Many RPG’s systems will favor Player Character survivability over how the setting’s universe should function.  I’ll agree that no Player wants their Character to die from the first hit to the head they take.  The problem is that many Games cater to the demands of Players who want to play as any type of Character.  For these Players many Games have try to make everything balanced.  Players aren’t at a disadvantage for picking a weaker Character type.   In my opinion when Games do this they should use some sort of a Player Character special rule for increase survivability.   Every Mecha has poor survivability rating against a direct hit but Playing Characters and Main Villains are so lucky that enemies can only score indirect hits against them.   The Savage Worlds system does see a difference between heroes and Extras.   But with such high Toughness ratings for some Destroids it doesn’t matter if a PC or NPC is piloting.  Neither is going to be threaten by an attacking Regult.  If I were a Player, I’d always pick the most armored Destroid.  I think you’d have house rule and lower the Toughness values for some Mecha.

 

Agile Mecha and Dodging

Savage World is quick and easy system.  I think it was designed for pulp action not vehicle combat.  If you were in a boxing match, you’d roll your Fighting skill dice vs your opponent’s Parry value.  The Parry is their fighting skill divided in half + 2.  With Ranged combat it is your Shooting skill dice vs the range to your target.  A character maybe a little harder to hit if they have the Dodge Edge but, in most cases, hitting Max Sterling with a throwing knife is easy as hitting Ben Dixon at the same distance.  Applying this system to Mecha combat and you’ll see that it is as easy to hit a VF-1 as it is to hit a Tomahawk at the same distance.  There doesn’t seem to be a vehicle dodge Edge.  Mecha does have a stat called Handling Value that provides a bonuses or penalty for piloting rolls.  I think you might to house rule that you include a Mech’s Handing for ranged attacks against it.  That way a VF-1 is harder to hit than a Destroid with lower Handing.

 

Besides Range the relative Speed of a target can make it harder to hit.  They’ve got Speed Stats measured in MPH.  You’ve got to figure what it would be per 6 second combat Round.  You could run a game using miniatures on your kitchen table as long all Mecha units are walking.  Flying Mecha is difficult to use with walking Mecha.  Their movement per round flies them right off your kitchen table and into your living room.   This has been a problem for all Game Systems unless it is a game that uses abstract Movement rates over accurate ones.  Not only do you have to figure Movement rates per Round you have to force all combatant to use the same method of movement or House Rule abstract movement rates or stop the game as you try to recompute things.

 

Now a stupid mistake according to the Savage World stats by Battlefield Press and SMG the VF-1 can’t fly in robot mode.  This same mistake was in the original VF-1 stats by Palladium Games.  The last version of the VF-1 by Palladium I think did fix this mistake.  If they watched episode 35, they would have seen the VF-1 flying in robot mode.

 

I apologise once again for this long post.   I enjoy thinking about game mechanics way too much.  Overall, I think these publishers did a good job applying the Robotech setting to both Game systems.  I do wish they proofread things more and re-watched the series to take notes.  Finding the best system for Mecha games isn’t easy.   A highly accurate system would be so slow it would be impossible to play.  All systems have to compromise somethings.  Is it too hard ask them all to compute movement rates per Round for you?  Give you both accurate movement rates and abstract movement rates?  Plus play test to make sure Mecha can get damaged by weapons that should be able to damage them?   I would run a mecha based game with this over Palladium any day but I'm still going to have to house rule a few things.

[jenius]

This all shows up as black text in a black background on my phone but I'm looking forward to reading it later.

[Roy Focker]

PS: Something I didn't look at was how it handles transforming Mecha.   In the series there's always some practical reason for using one mode of transform over the other.   With games there's isn't always clear advantages or disadvantages for using one mode or another.

I copied and text the post from Word.  I view the forum on white background.  I changed the font color.

[Bolt]

It does make sense that a Destroid would have thicker armor and (hopefully) anti missile systems. But not to the point that it's as hard to kill as you say. I'm glad you mentioned agility as , obviously, a VF should be way harder to hit than a destroid.

57 minutes ago, Roy Focker said:

A character maybe a little harder to hit if they have the Dodge Edge but, in most cases, hitting Max Sterling with a throwing knife is easy as hitting Ben Dixon at the same distance.  Applying this system to Mecha combat and you’ll see that it is as easy to hit a VF-1 as it is to hit a Tomahawk at the same distance.

Ridiculous!

Edited February 13, 2020 by Bolt

[Seto Kaiba]

19 hours ago, Bolt said:

To buy a Robotech rpg as a substitute for a proper art book or encyclopedia is absurd. Granted rpg's usually come with cool artwork and plenty of mecha stats. I never , ever considered any of it to hold water. A poor substitute indeed.

Granted, it's a very poor substitute and it seems nonsensical to us Macross fans who are spoiled by a wealth of information in official artbooks and other official publications... but for the Robotech fanbase, which has practically no official publications to speak of, a poor substitute is better than nothing.

Robotech's official information largely came from the OSM, filtered through the old Palladium Books RPG's misconceptions, thanks to fans who treated the RPG books like they were reliable sources of information.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Roy Focker said:

The belief that Destroids should be very hard to hurt is a mistaken belief that has been around since Palladium Books Robotech RPG was first released.   We compare Destroids to a Tanks and treated them the same way - a heavily armored power house.  If you watch the animation a Destroid's ability to absorb an attack from a Regult is about the same as VF-1’s ability.

To be entirely fair, it's not a completely unreasonable conclusion that Palladium Books and Strange Machine both jumped to.  Robotech's setting doesn't have things like the energy conversion armor technology that makes the 30mm-thick armor on the VF-1 every bit as tough as the much thicker composite armor on the Tomahawk Destroid in Macross.  If you were just looking at them in terms of one being a walking tank and one being a fighter jet that turns into a robot, you'd expect the walking tank to be a LOT more heavily armored.

(Palladium actually fixed this partly in RT2E, with the Tomahawk having only 35% more MDC than the initial type VF-1 and only 13% more MDC than the late type.)

They probably would've have been aware of Macross sources that explicitly state that the VF-1 and Tomahawk have comparable defensive strength because the VF-1's armor gets ten times stronger in Battroid mode.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Roy Focker said:

I copied and text the post from Word.  I view the forum on white background.  I changed the font color.

Since this forum software uses a rich text editor, it'll copy the source formatting of whatever you're copying from... so if you copy from something like MS Word, it'll assume that you want the text to be the specific color it was in that other source (in this case, black).

If you use CTRL-SHIFT-V instead of CTRL-V, it'll paste without the source formatting.  You'll lose italics, bold, underlines, and other formatting like that but the text will come through as the forum's default color rather than an explicitly-set one.

[Roy Focker]

A Destroid looks like a Tank and treating it as being much stronger than a VF is a logically conclusion.  I'd still argue that even without using post series books any publisher can still re-watch the episodes and take notes.  Maybe I'm one of the few people who obsesses over the tiny details of the animation.  Like the fact that Azonia is seen piloting Mecha in a couple of episodes but this game doesn't give her the Piloting Skill.

Everyone's being equally hard to hit is because Savage Worlds itself wasn't created with vehicle combat in mind.  I don't blame the writers of the Robotech game for that but they could have also created their own new rules to change that for playing their game.

I know I'm sounding overly critical but I do enjoy what they made.  I just wish they spent more time writing it.

[Macross GURU]

30 minutes ago, Roy Focker said:

A Destroid looks like a Tank and treating it as being much stronger than a VF is a logically conclusion.  I'd still argue that even without using post series books any publisher can still re-watch the episodes and take notes.  Maybe I'm one of the few people who obsesses over the tiny details of the animation.  Like the fact that Azonia is seen piloting Mecha in a couple of episodes but this game doesn't give her the Piloting Skill.

Everyone's being equally hard to hit is because Savage Worlds itself wasn't created with vehicle combat in mind.  I don't blame the writers of the Robotech game for that but they could have also created their own new rules to change that for playing their game.

I know I'm sounding overly critical but I do enjoy what they made.  I just wish they spent more time writing it.

Naturally the VF-1 would seem less armored then the Tomahawk. Us in the know understand the VF-1 uses energy convertion armor with hyper carbon. And the Tomahawk uses a composite armor similar to real life chobium armor. The thing is that both are equally strong, but it is obvious that the designers are casual fans of the series and don't dive into the details.

This is where good GMs know the subject material and make modifications where necessary. 

I went back to working on FEMAS and tinkering with the combat system. Debating whether I should use target number or threshold numbers for the armor values.  

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, Macross GURU said:

Naturally the VF-1 would seem less armored then the Tomahawk. Us in the know understand the VF-1 uses energy convertion armor with hyper carbon. And the Tomahawk uses a composite armor similar to real life chobium armor. The thing is that both are equally strong, but it is obvious that the designers are casual fans of the series and don't dive into the details.

Just a brief nitpick... the "Chobham armor" thing is a Robotech-ism that Palladium came up with for its "2nd Edition" RPG.  Macross's Destroids use the same OTM composite materials the VFs do, just in greater thicknesses to compensate for the lack of energy conversion armor reinforcement.  Pretty much the only time strictly conventional armor tech was used on mecha in Macross was the VF-0's reactive armor packs.

[Macross GURU]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Just a brief nitpick... the "Chobham armor" thing is a Robotech-ism that Palladium came up with for its "2nd Edition" RPG.  Macross's Destroids use the same OTM composite materials the VFs do, just in greater thicknesses to compensate for the lack of energy conversion armor reinforcement.  Pretty much the only time strictly conventional armor tech was used on mecha in Macross was the VF-0's reactive armor packs.

I said similar. Chobium armor is a lightweight highly resistant composite, for which the manufactur is an official secret of the United Kingdom. 

OTM is the name but unofficially, according Kawamori, is space metal.

Hyper carbon which I've seen referenced several time in Macross publications, is in real life Carbon 60.

So much retcon. I really stopped caring. To me it is space metal, that is what Kawamori said in the beginning, that is what it is.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, Macross GURU said:

I said similar. Chobium armor is a lightweight highly resistant composite, for which the manufactur is an official secret of the United Kingdom. 

They're not similar at all, though... Chobham armor is ceramic tiles arranged in a complex sandwich of fiber-reinforced plastics, rubber, and corrugated aluminum.

The armor material in Macross is layered, laminated, metallic carbon allotrope.  Like bulletproof glass, except the glass is replaced by layers of metallic carbon harder than diamond.

 

8 hours ago, Macross GURU said:

OTM is the name but unofficially, according Kawamori, is space metal.

OTM isn't the name... OTM is short for OverTechnology of Macross, the term that was used in even the oldest materials to refer to pretty much any technology or supermaterial which was reverse engineered from the Macross.  Also, "space metal" didn't come from Kawamori... it came from Masahiro Chiba, who included the term in his detailed write-up of the VF-1 as one of several nods he made to Mobile Suit Gundam in it.  (Specifically, a nod to the Luna Titanium the titular Gundam was made from.)

 

8 hours ago, Macross GURU said:

Hyper carbon which I've seen referenced several time in Macross publications, is in real life Carbon 60.

"Hypercarbon" could be said to be Kawamori's term for it... but it's not Carbon 60 (Buckminsterfullerene), hypercarbon is a metallic carbon allotrope.  An allotrope of carbon that had metallic properties was pure sci-fi until 2015, when NSCU researchers created a substance called Q-carbon that is harder than diamond, metallic, and responds to magnetic fields.

 

8 hours ago, Macross GURU said:

So much retcon. I really stopped caring. To me it is space metal, that is what Kawamori said in the beginning, that is what it is.

... perhaps it would be advisable to care at least enough to get your facts straight? 

[Macross GURU]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They're not similar at all, though... Chobham armor is ceramic tiles arranged in a complex sandwich of fiber-reinforced plastics, rubber, and corrugated aluminum.

The armor material in Macross is layered, laminated, metallic carbon allotrope.  Like bulletproof glass, except the glass is replaced by layers of metallic carbon harder than diamond.

 

OTM isn't the name... OTM is short for OverTechnology of Macross, the term that was used in even the oldest materials to refer to pretty much any technology or supermaterial which was reverse engineered from the Macross.  Also, "space metal" didn't come from Kawamori... it came from Masahiro Chiba, who included the term in his detailed write-up of the VF-1 as one of several nods he made to Mobile Suit Gundam in it.  (Specifically, a nod to the Luna Titanium the titular Gundam was made from.)

 

"Hypercarbon" could be said to be Kawamori's term for it... but it's not Carbon 60 (Buckminsterfullerene), hypercarbon is a metallic carbon allotrope.  An allotrope of carbon that had metallic properties was pure sci-fi until 2015, when NSCU researchers created a substance called Q-carbon that is harder than diamond, metallic, and responds to magnetic fields.

 

... perhaps it would be advisable to care at least enough to get your facts straight? 

You see that's the point. A lot of these guys either aren't able to obtain the publications or come here to flesh out the fluff for the game. The whole reason I recovered my old MW handle was so I could learn the new fluff and back story, and any other holes in my knowledge to make my home brew system. 

I wouldn't have known all that and would have made the same mistakes that the game publishers do. With that knowledge I can now flesh out better fluff for the destroids and variable fighters.

 

I'll open a new thread once my system is ready. I'll post the PDF files on that thread. FEMAS as a system will be separate. I'll have a Macross version separate from the FEMAS version. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by Macross GURU

[GabrielV]

I picked up the Battlefield Press Savage Worlds adaptation as well as the Strange Machine Games A6 system standalone RPG.

---

I got the Battlefield Press version first and dove into it.  I was on a Savage Worlds kick at the time, learning the system.  My first impression of this version was how similar it seemed to the old 1e Palladium book.  It was arranged similarly, presented similarly, and even seemed to be concerned with the same types of minutiae.

Then I started doing test combats.  That's when it became abundantly clear the author had just taken the original Robotech RPG book from 86, and mapped it to nearest existing Savage Worlds equivalents with little to no tweaking.  Lots of mecha stats can be directly traced back to the pre-existing stats for a vehicle in Savage Worlds Adventure Edition.  The result is a first pass conversion of Palladium Robotech to Savage Worlds, not an adaptation of Robotech to the game system.

No provisions were made for Robotech/Macross style mecha combat in the system.  In my tests, the sample Max would get slaughtered by just a couple of pods with little chance of inflicting casualties.  A simple hack of contested rolls to allow a VF pilot to dodge (there's a similar existing mechanic in Savage Worlds which is otherwise not usable against these kinds of attacks) made things much better.

But mechanically, it came across as someone's first draft of converting a different game to Savage Worlds.  And considering I was just learning the game and was able to pick holes in their work, I don't think they were all that strong with the Savage Worlds game engine.

I started off very excited about the Savage Worlds version, but I ended very disappointed.  My opinion is that it exists solely for someone to buy and put on their shelf to say they have a Savage Worlds Robotech RPG.  It is not meant to be played, and would require considerable work to bring to a playable state.

---

I have read the entirety of the Strange Machine Games version.  I've made up a character.  I've done a few logic exercises with the rules.  But I haven't run it.

Some elements of the system are a bit difficult to wrap my head around.  The two actions per turn combined with the possibility to split them between multiple phases per round as well as what precisely those phases cover is a bit of a head scratcher for me.  There are also issues I have with die rolling and when you apply successes on the die roll to actions.  Do you get to see how many successes the guy attacking you scored before you decide how many successes of your own you use for defense?

What I like about the SMG version is that it's not about exactly how much damage a gun pod does or micromanagement of missile loads.  It's about describing how you do things.  Skills in the game aren't things like "Pilot Veritech".  Instead they are approaches to solve problems like "Angelic Grace."  You describe how you want to do things that round and that determines what skills you use.

As someone who had DECADES of problems getting players to say anything about their actions beyond "I shoot" or "I dodge" this is EXACTLY what I've been wanting.

The character's area of expertise is defined by their class/archetype (the game calls it something else, but it's basically class/subclass).  Minmei can't fly a veritech because she's a singer, dammit.  Max can't be a popstar because he's a veritech ace, dammit.  Characters use their skills within their archetype, but that also grants considerable leeway.

I have noticed some oddities with mecha damage.  There's no requirement you actually take body/hp damage to a mecha as long as you have hardware on the mech to damage.  So a valkyrie can take free hits to the gun pod, the missile system, the head lasers, the jet nose lasers, etc.  Most of these are only one hit.  But you can also take damage to your engines, which (if I'm understanding the rules as written) don't have any set number of hits.  Instead engines just decrease by a percentage each time damage is taken to them.  So technically, a valkyrie could take an insane number of hits and never be destroyed as long as a PC/main character was driving it.  Not a problem with reasonable players.  But it would certainly be a problem with my old gaming crew.

All in all, I definitely like the SMG version A LOT more.  I don't think it's perfect, but it would be much more about playing a character and drama than the tactical mecha combat and missile management of the Palladium RPG.

I hope they eventually do their Southern Cross/New Generation combo book.

[valk1j]

This thread has been very informative  on my 5e d&d hack for Macross. Simplified sone things in mecha combat, but am trying some new rules for the variable nature of the fighters. Also working up that pilots can be same class but have different ways of fighting in the fighter and outside of it.

[GabrielV]

Coming back to revisit this.

I still haven't gotten around to running the SMG version of Robotech.  I've been distracted.

I am on the Strange Machine Games newsletter, and sadly there hasn't been any news of any follow-up to the Robotech RPG.  It seems they've lined themselves out with other projects for the next two years.  It's sad, because I definitely would have liked to see their take on New Generation.  I guess at least the existing book has the Alpha in it and that can be used to extrapolate outwards a bit.

I also noticed that Battlefield Press has announced not only a Revised version of their Savage Worlds Robotech book, but have also announced two other books:  Into the Void which seems to be a Expeditionary Force sourcebook, and Return to Earth which the title would seem to indicate a New Generation sourcebook (but the description on Miniature Market seems to just be the same as the Macross book).

Hopefully Battlefield Press will do some polishing and make the book useful for gaming rather than the original version's status of just something you get so you can say you have a Savage Worlds adaptation of Robotech on your shelf.