Delta Characters are strange

[aurance]

Yeah okay but how cool is Rick Hunter JUST KIDDING DON’T HURT ME!

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, aurance said:

Yeah okay but how cool is Rick Hunter JUST KIDDING DON’T HURT ME!

That depends on what point in the series you're asking Lisa Hayes about him. If early on, she's liable to use the Daedalus Maneuver on you when you're not looking.

[Einherjar]

10 hours ago, aurance said:

Yeah okay but how cool is Rick Hunter JUST KIDDING DON’T HURT ME!

The last time I saw him he could barely fit into his flight suit because of steroids.

[jeniusornome]

Something I'm wondering about with the Delta characters.

Windermere was basically a medieval fantasy planet prior to NUNS finding it.

Xaos is a marketing machine for a pop band.

The aerial knights we meet are an apple farmer, some weirdos with no character development, a literal bastard and a superiority complex.

Delta flight is a retired guy, a fishmonger, a slacker, a washout and an inferiority complex.

 

These seem to be pretty bad choices for pilots in a show that was supposed to be about VF -on- VF dogfighting.

It was still silly fun to watch, but the more I think about it, the less and less sense any of it makes. I'd have to go back and watch both shows again but I think Macross Seven might have actually been better written / had more coherent characters and plot?

Edited May 31, 2020 by jeniusornome

[Seto Kaiba]

26 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

Windermere was basically a medieval fantasy planet prior to NUNS finding it.

Yup.

 

26 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

Xaos is a marketing machine for a pop band.

Xaos is an interstellar conglomerate with a weirdly diverse portfolio... it's like someone let Comcast have a private army, both in terms of how their business is split up and their general lack of competence.

 

26 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

The aerial knights we meet are an apple farmer, some weirdos with no character development, a literal bastard and a superiority complex.

Oh, it's worse (and funnier) than that... the Aerial Knights, with the exception of Master Hermann, are a standard set of reverse harem genre character archetypes of the sort that you could find in practically any otome game.  Someone somewhere in production was clearly hoping for shipping wars that never materialized.

Keith Aero Windermere is the practically obligatory blonde-haired tragic prince character who comes from a wealthy/influential/noble but broken family and has been treated badly, neglected, or excluded because he's an illegitimate child the family head fathered with his mistress.

Roid Brehm is the bespectacled stoic chessmaster with a manipulative streak and a hidden nasty temper who is the best friend and right hand man of the tragic prince character and runs everything from the shadows.

Theo and Xao Jussila are the incredibly close identical twins who finish each other's sentences, who exist mainly to facilitate twincest and one-true-threesome ships.

Qasim Eber-Hardt is the tall and intimidating, but soft-spoken, gentle, and considerate "wild" man type.

Bogue Con-Vaart is the younger girly boy who was doted on and spoiled by his big sisters but wants to be a real manly man and overcompensates for everything as a result.

Plus or minus a few little tidbits here and there, they're basically the main cast from Ouran High School Host Club recast as villains... which has been a source of unending entertainment to me ever since I noticed it.

 

26 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

Delta flight is a retired guy, a fishmonger, a slacker, a washout and an inferiority complex.

They're horribly underdeveloped expies of characters from previous Macross shows... except Hayate, who is arguably an improvement in likability.

Arad Molders is Great Value Ozma Lee, a scruffy old veteran who left the New UN Forces after the grief from a personal loss/failure broke him and he compensated for it with a mild anti-authority streak and joining a private military contractor.

Messer Ihlefeld is Dollar General Michael Blanc, the hotshot senpai who tries to keep the main character out of the service, is hiding an entire airport's worth of emotional baggage from a previous traumatic experience, is wanted by all the ladies and refuses to publicly acknowledge his romantic interest in a colleague until right before his untimely demise.

Chuck Mustang is Five Below Hayao Kakizaki, the boisterous big guy with little-to-no indoor voice and a very relaxed outlook who's usually laughing, joking, or eating and wants to be a hit with the ladies but they all find him unappealing.

Mirage Jenius is Daiso Mylene F. Jenius, the tomboyish girl who feels overshadowed and inadequate in the face of someone better but takes the family legacy very seriously and is constantly frustrated and at loggerheads with the more lackadaisical main boy.

Hayate Immelmann is better Alto Saotome, a dreamer who feels lost and put-upon in the world and wants to chase their passion but doesn't get the opportunity until they fall into the cockpit and discover they're actually really suited for this fighter pilot thing, despite an anti-authority streak.  Unlike Alto, he's not constantly moping and shouting and has well developed sense of humor, so he's easier to like early on.

 

Walkure, as characters, are even less developed than Delta Flight, but are no less a pack of cliches...

Freyja Wion is just better Ranka Lee.

Mikumo Guynemer is a counterfeit Sheryl Nome who's stuck in Sheryl's abrasive "pro" mode 24/7 because she literally has no personality of her own.  

Kaname Buccaneer is the broken bird woobie, a pity sink who seemingly exists to fail and be sad.

Makina Nakajima is just a fanservice character, who exists mainly to move a set of large breasts from scene to scene and gainax occasionally... to the extent that her boobs feel like more of a character than she herself is.

Reina Prowler is the standard-issue short-haired sugar-and-ice girl with the troubled past who talks in monotone... what most call a Rei Ayanami expy.

 

26 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

These seem to be pretty bad choices for pilots in a show that was supposed to be about VF -on- VF dogfighting.

Is that really what Macross Delta was about, though?  

Spoiler

  Oh my... No.

Macross Delta was all about promoting the music of the real world idol group Walkure.  The heavily derivative barely-there plot, the near-total lack of characterization, the piss-poor combat choreography in every episode after the first two... these are just set dressing in what is essentially an elaborate commercial for the idol group.

 

26 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

It was still silly fun to watch, but the more I think about it, the less and less sense any of it makes. I'd have to go back and watch both shows again but I think Macross Seven might have actually been better written / had more coherent characters and plot?

"Might"?  Macross 7 actually developed its characters and its story.  It stands head, shoulders, knees, toes, and a 50,000km Tsiolkovsky tower above Macross Delta in every category that isn't music.

Macross Delta really REALLY needed more time and more opportunity to develop its characters.  It could've been really interesting and engaging, but they just kinda fell apart after episode 4 or so.

[sketchley]

23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... genre character archetypes of the sort that you could find in practically any otome game. ...

Funny you should mention that.  Chisato Mita (the original character designer) is apparently mainly a game character designer...

Ah... for the days of Risa Ebata... love or hate her work in MF, the characters were mostly original.

[David Hingtgen]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Reina Prowler is the standard-issue short-haired sugar-and-ice girl with the troubled past who talks in monotone... what most call a Rei Ayanami expy.

That's a disservice to Rei, I think most of her clones floating in the tank had more personality than Reina...

[jeniusornome]

I had to look up some of that but I have to agree with what you’re saying @Seto Kaiba  . Although I thought I read somewhere, maybe an interview or something, where Kawamori or someone was promoting the show as “getting back to the VF vs VF that everyone wants.”

 

I think it also suffered from “too many characters” syndrome. M7, for all it’s... M7, focused on Mylene, Basara and Gamlin. Other characters got some development and stand out scenes or episodes, but it’s also 52 episodes, a “movie” and a 4 episode miniseries. 
 

Delta was just 26 episodes and they had like 10 main characters. And I think they had 3 love triangles in there too (none of which were really developed as actual triangles).

Edited May 31, 2020 by jeniusornome

[sketchley]

6 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

... Although I thought I read somewhere, maybe an interview or something, where Kawamori or someone was promoting the show as “getting back to the VF vs VF that everyone wants.”

The only thing that I recall along similar lines is that he wanted to do more dogfights in an atmosphere—as most of those were in space in MF.

That is, of course, in no way saying that your memory is incorrect.

[Bolt]

I kinda doubt we will ever get a Macross series as long as M7. As these shows are changing focus to Jpop video services. And the stamina and attention span just might not be there (for the intended audience). So i pray for a well written OVA..

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

That's a disservice to Rei, I think most of her clones floating in the tank had more personality than Reina...

To be fair, several of those clones also had more solo screen time than Reina did.

 

 

7 hours ago, jeniusornome said:

I think it also suffered from “too many characters” syndrome. M7, for all it’s... M7, focused on Mylene, Basara and Gamlin. Other characters got some development and stand out scenes or episodes, but it’s also 52 episodes, a “movie” and a 4 episode miniseries. 

Yeah... having loads and loads of characters fighting for the aggressively limited screen time between Walkure songs definitely did not help the show's writing.

Normally, a Macross series has around ten people in the main cast, plus assorted minor and supporting characters.

• Super Dimension Fortress Macross: Hikaru, Misa, Minmay, Roy, Claudia, Max, Milia, Global, Vrlitwhai, Exsedol, Quamzin (11)
• Macross 7: Basara, Mylene, Ray, Veffidas, Gamlin, Max, Milia, Gepernich, Gigil, Sivil (10)
• Macross Frontier: Alto, Sheryl, Ranka, Ozma, Michael, Luca, Brera, Cathy, Leon, Grace (10)

Even the OVAs are pretty close in this regard:

• Macross II: Lovers Again: Hibiki, Sylvie, Ishtar, Nexx, Feff, Exegran, Ingues, Dennis (8)
• Macross Plus: Isamu, Guld, Myung, Sharon, Jan, Lucy, Millard, Marj (8)
• Macross Dynamite 7: Basara, Elma, Liza, Graham, Lawrence, Gamlin, whale poacher captain (7)
• Macross Zero: Shin, Sara, Mao, Edgar, Roy, Aries, Nora, D.D., Hasford (9)

Macross Delta has:

• Walkure: Mikumo, Kanama, Makina, Reina, Freyja (5)
• Delta Flight: Arad, Messer, Chuck, Mirage, Hayate (5)
• Aerial Knights: Keith, Bogue, Hermann, Qasim (4)
• Windermere IV: Grammier VI, Heinz, Roid Brehm (3)
• Other: Ernest Johnson, Berger Stone, Laurie Malan (4)

For those who are counting, that's 21.  I left out Theo and Xao because they're glorified background characters who have no role in the actual plot and almost no interaction with other characters.  Properly developing ten or so characters in the space of 26 22min episodes is a big ask, but not unachievable.  With a cast twice that size like Macross Delta's, it's nearly impossible.  When you have an Excuse Plot that's all about contriving flimsy reasons for an idol group to have live concerts at the drop of a hat, it's defnitely an impossible goal.

 

7 hours ago, jeniusornome said:

Delta was just 26 episodes and they had like 10 main characters. And I think they had 3 love triangles in there too (none of which were really developed as actual triangles).

The five members of Walkure, plus Hayate, Mirage, Keith, Roid, and Bogue... yup.  There was the Hayate-Freyja-Mirage triangle and the Messer-Chuck's sister-Kaname one... what was the third?

 

5 hours ago, Bolt said:

I kinda doubt we will ever get a Macross series as long as M7. As these shows are changing focus to Jpop video services. And the stamina and attention span just might not be there (for the intended audience). So i pray for a well written OVA..

In this day in age?  Yeah, I'd doubt it.  These days, a lot of what seems to get made are 13 episode adaptations of light novels.  Even a 26 episode series seems to be increasingly rare.

[jeniusornome]

You know it’s funny - the lists you have there of the 10 “main” characters from each show, the first three you list are the ones I consider the main characters in each series. (Except 7, Ray and Veffidas were just supporting cast IMO, though I see why you listed Fire Bomber first).
 

also interesting, those first three are the triangle in each show. Misa, Hikaru and Minmay. Isamu, Myung and Guld. Basara, Mylene and Gamlin (although this one is debatable as an actual triangle, because Basara didn’t have any interest in Mylene. He sure seemed to like her big sister Emilia though!) Mao, Shin and Sara. Sylvie, Hibiki and Ishtar. Sheryl, Alto and Ranka. 

your full list of main characters in Delta I would have considered about half supporting cast. Main characters I could see:

Hayate, Mirage, Messer, Freyja, Mikumo, Kaname, Keith, Roid and Bogue. Up to 9 from 3. All the rest I’d consider supporting cast.

Triangles I saw them attempting to do in Delta and why they weren’t really triangles:

 

Freyja / Hayate / Mirage - Freyja and Hayate were obviously supposed to be together from the start. Having Mirage get all mopey because Hayate was her manic pixie dream boy just hurt any real chance at character development for her. The sudden outburst at the end of the series “I love you Hayate!” from Mirage was met with a “wait, what?” from Hayate. He was never interested in her.

 

Chuck’s sister / Messer / Kaname - Messer was too busy being obsessed stalker type to even notice a character whose name I can’t remember (though I’m sure she did have one). Chuck was supporting cast; his sister was a background character at best. 
 

Messer / Kaname / Arad - this was the only one I could see as there being a pivot point - Kaname seemed to be presented as liking both of them, Arad maybe felt the same for her, and Messer was a little obsessed but I guess I’m a good way? But then Messer died and instead of resolving the triangle the other way they just forgot about it. 
 

There was also a thin attempt at one with the hints of Bogue’s interest in Reina (I assumed with some of the team in Windermere towards the end they were working towards an eventual “Meet cute” between Bogue and Reina which would have given his character another dimension aside from “angry”) and the mostly-implied-but-not-nearly-as-direct-as-the-movie-version of Reina and Makina’s relationship. But it was just played for comic relief instead with him sending her all of his bitcoin accidentally. 
 

Also the Mirage - Makina - Reina one. There was a lot of talk from them about getting her to loosen up, I think there was even a hot springs or bathhouse scene in the movie? But I assumed it was another thin attempt at a setup for fanfic or shipping or whatever. Or just fan service. 

Edited May 31, 2020 by jeniusornome

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Properly developing ten or so characters in the space of 26 22min episodes is a big ask, but not unachievable.  With a cast twice that size like Macross Delta's, it's nearly impossible.  

Especially when they spent ten of those twenty-six episodes in a holding pattern just twiddling their thumbs instead of advancing or developing anything.

[Seto Kaiba]

43 minutes ago, jeniusornome said:

You know it’s funny - the lists you have there of the 10 “main” characters from each show, the first three you list are the ones I consider the main characters in each series. (Except 7, Ray and Veffidas were just supporting cast IMO, though I see why you listed Fire Bomber first).

I think I should make the distinction between what I mean when I say "main cast" and "main character".  

The Main Cast are the named characters who are actually directly involved in moving the story forward... the characters who do enough in the plot to actually merit being named, featured in the merchandise, etc.

The Main Characters are a proper subset of the Main Cast, being the ones who are actually the focus of the story.

Characters like Bruno Global or Ray Lovelock are undeniably not Main Characters, but they have essential roles in the story that are critical to the plot advancing.

[Sildani]

You forgot the Roid-Keith-Messer triangle. When you love someone to death. 

[jeniusornome]

@Seto Kaiba ah, yes, I would completely agree with that - we're just using different terms to refer to the same characters I think.

@Sildani yeah, I'd have to go back and watch it again but I can kinda see that. Although I don't recall if Messer and Keith ever actually met in the show, there are definitely some triangle elements there.

Basically, Delta was way too convoluted for its own good, and likely would have done much better if the series was shorter and they focused on giving less characters more depth, instead of more characters less depth. But it was still fun to watch.

I feel like the "carefree guy shows the uptight girl how to live a little, which leads to potential romance, but meanwhile carefree girl and carefree guy are clearly meant for each other anyways" of Mirage / Hayate / Freyja could have been a good triangle, but the way it was played really treated Mirage's character as not even in the running.

More interesting to me would have been a properly developed Messer / Kaname / Arad triangle, but that probably would have required Kaname be the main character, and having Messer die at the halfway point just shuts it all down. Killing him at the end of the show, maybe after the two of them had gotten together, would have been that nice bittersweet ending they've been pulling with some of the characters (Shin disappearing in Zero and leaving Mao, Alto disappearing in the Frontier movies, Michael dying in the Frontier series, etc). Instead they tried to add extra dimensions to his personality right before he died and after he died, when it was like... ah, he's already dead so why are we learning about this now?

I do have to wonder too, who was the best pilot in Delta Flight. They make it seem like it was Messer, so was he a really good pilot before? Was Mirage just so-so and Hayate's natural talent for piloting really grated on her nerves? Where's my cool breakdance fighting battroids after the first episode? Sigh. So much potential.

OTOH, they're basically printing money with Walkure's faces on it, so they're obviously doing something right. And if that means more Macross, that works for me.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

yeah, I'd have to go back and watch it again but I can kinda see that. Although I don't recall if Messer and Keith ever actually met in the show, there are definitely some triangle elements there.

They had a brief face-to-face meeting in episode 8, when the members of Walkure and Delta Flight who stupidly went undercover on Voldor escaped after being captured.  They each picked each other out as the other's rival pretty much right away, despite the fact that they had never seen each other outside of a VF before.  Instead of fighting on the ground, Keith promised to finish him in the sky.

 

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

Basically, Delta was way too convoluted for its own good, and likely would have done much better if the series was shorter and they focused on giving less characters more depth, instead of more characters less depth. But it was still fun to watch.

I'm not sure it was convoluted... its story is exceedingly simple and a big part of its second half is largely cribbed from Macross Frontier.  It's just badly laid-out and nothing is properly explained because there was no time to explain it.

 

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

I do have to wonder too, who was the best pilot in Delta Flight. They make it seem like it was Messer, so was he a really good pilot before? Was Mirage just so-so and Hayate's natural talent for piloting really grated on her nerves? Where's my cool breakdance fighting battroids after the first episode? Sigh. So much potential.

I mean, they're all third rate at best... this was a bush league conflict by any standard of measure.  Messer or Arad would have to claim the title of "least crap", but of course Arad is perpetually out of focus and Messer was the one Keith singled out as his rival ace.

 

1 hour ago, jeniusornome said:

OTOH, they're basically printing money with Walkure's faces on it, so they're obviously doing something right. And if that means more Macross, that works for me.

That's got basically nothing to do with the actual show, and everything to do with the real idol group Walkure.

[David Hingtgen]

20 hours ago, jeniusornome said:

I do have to wonder too, who was the best pilot in Delta Flight. They make it seem like it was Messer, so was he a really good pilot before? Was Mirage just so-so and Hayate's natural talent for piloting really grated on her nerves? Where's my cool breakdance fighting battroids after the first episode? Sigh. So much potential.

More battroid dancing action?  That would have required them to transform out of fighter mode more than once or twice after the first episode...

[Marzan]

On 5/31/2020 at 6:08 PM, Bolt said:

I kinda doubt we will ever get a Macross series as long as M7. As these shows are changing focus to Jpop video services. And the stamina and attention span just might not be there (for the intended audience). So i pray for a well written OVA..

In 2020? Good luck with that. Almost all good quality stuff nowadays is adaptations from manga, novels or the odd game. The production committee system doesn't really allow for giving deep funding for original material unless its from a big, big name director

[jeniusornome]

We could be due for another Macross OVA at this point, though. The last one was Zero, and who knows what they have planned after this next Delta movie?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, jeniusornome said:

We could be due for another Macross OVA at this point, though. The last one was Zero, and who knows what they have planned after this next Delta movie?

We were supposed to get another series.

[Master Dex]

Just waiting for 2018 for that new series.

I'm sure we'll hear news any day now.

[Einherjar]

33 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Just waiting for 2018 for that new series.

I'm sure we'll hear news any day now.

Does that recent American comic book worked on by a bunch of posers count?

[Master Dex]

3 hours ago, Einherjar said:

Does that recent American comic book worked on by a bunch of posers count?

In fact, it does not.

[ScrambledValkyrie]

On 6/8/2020 at 10:37 AM, jeniusornome said:

We could be due for another Macross OVA at this point, though. The last one was Zero, and who knows what they have planned after this next Delta movie?

Another OVA along the lines of Zero or Plus would be great. I’d be fine with a short series as long as it had more substance, better story telling, and less bubble gum than Delta.

[jeniusornome]

Eh, I'll take all the bubblegum pop crisis they want to put in it as long as it's a good story with actual character development and some neat mecha.

More recent promotional material for things Macross focuses heavily on the musicians anyways, so it's not like it's going away anytime soon.

[Alita_is_Best_Valkryie_gal]

The Characters in Delta is the Reason why i HARDLY disliked Delta. Especially they did Mirage real Dirty. Making the CHAD Max a frakking Laughing stock by Mirage's shitty generic Tsundere Bumbling Stalker trait. while having the MOST PREDICTABLE Love triangle in macross. 

 

sure, you can have a badass Mech Jets, World Building and Factions. but if you make Half of the Cast soo unlikeable that you wanna see half of the cast to just be dead?  I'm sorry,  don't think people are going to be Interested with the Anime itself. 

 

Freyja is adorable, but i don't really mind her but its fun to call her as Fried Lomian and French Fries. ? I used to like Mirage, until they frakk up her "Relationships" with Hayate.  yea, she doesn't love him as she used to, but the Damage is already done. i don't know all the names but i remember i hated Delta soo much that i talk trash to people who like this garbage. but i Matured and i don't pay attention on them and be on the community who has the same opinion as i do. 

 

i actually wanna Redo the Delta Series, or made a sequel by a Universe connected to a Multi Universe war. mostly like a Alt. Universe. were i try to Improve the characters Wooden Personality and shitty traits, plus spice things up and make Dramatic. i can go on if you guys like on  a forum if i get amount of Audience.