Bandai 1/60 DX Chogokin Macross Plus YF-21

[kajnrig]

Wanting a line art accurate transforming YF-21 is wanting all your groceries in one bag and for it to not be heavy.

[jenius]

I agree with that... But I also believe the right engineering can get you close. Sentinel's Legioss did things no one thought was possible for that design to become a toy. The issue may be that the amount of engineering required would make the toy crazy expensive or no fun like the Draken.

[Mog]

. . . Or you make compromises for one mode at the minor expense of another.

But you don’t go Bandai’s way with the -21 and make design choices that compromise ALL THREE MODES.

[no3Ljm]

3 hours ago, Mog said:

. . . Or you make compromises for one mode at the minor expense of another.

But you don’t go Bandai’s way with the -21 and make design choices that compromise ALL THREE MODES.

But you're still going to buy Bandai's YF-21 like the rest of us no matter what, right? 

[Mog]

Nope.  Not based on that garbage prototype.

I’ll stick with my Yammy, skinny legs and all.

[Reïvaj]

22 hours ago, no3Ljm said:

Aren't we all? So close, yet so far. 

To be honest, I can't remember now what year this YF-21 prototype was originally published. 

 

It's funny, because lots of people like this prototype but it still has kind of skinny legs... As if really overdimentioned bulky legs weren't reeeally necessary...

[Reïvaj]

22 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Honestly, at this point?  I'm tempted to buy a Bandai version just for the legs, and hack them up so I can swap them onto the Yamato YF-21 for battroid, and be done with the whole mess.  

You know what? I don't even like the legs. I think the lower parts, those that are over the feet, are very poorly designed and absolutely non canonical. 

[26662]

52 minutes ago, Reïvaj said:

You know what? I don't even like the legs. I think the lower parts, those that are over the feet, are very poorly designed and absolutely non canonical. 

OMG.  Can’t you just be happy Bandai cares enough to put their blood, sweat, and tears into a 20-yr old franchise (or thereabouts)?  Sweet Jesus, save me from these ignorant, unappreciative hordes.  You honestly believe your shitting on these pre-release images will manifest something better at this point?  Talk about cutting off one’s nose to spite their face.  Look at its construction and design!  These guys worked their ass off to translate 2D images into a miraculous 3D valk.  Go ahead and sit this one out.  I’ll buy enough for the both us us.

[M'Kyuun]

1 hour ago, 26662 said:

OMG.  Can’t you just be happy Bandai cares enough to put their blood, sweat, and tears into a 20-yr old franchise (or thereabouts)?  Sweet Jesus, save me from these ignorant, unappreciative hordes.  You honestly believe your shitting on these pre-release images will manifest something better at this point?  Talk about cutting off one’s nose to spite their face.  Look at its construction and design!  These guys worked their ass off to translate 2D images into a miraculous 3D valk.  Go ahead and sit this one out.  I’ll buy enough for the both us us.

I get your frustration with naysayers, but everyone's entitled to their opinion, whether or not we agree with them. Relax...it'll be ok. 😀 I'm on your side of the argument; I've been a fan of Bandai's design since it was first revealed back in 2019. I have a complaint or two, but nothing so dire as to turn me off to a purchase when and if it becomes available. I'm also open to Arcadia's revisiting the nigh-perfect Yamato YF-21, tweaking the legs to look more proportionally 'correct' relative to the rest of the valk and Kawamori's line art, which is The Canon, and always my go-to for reference. It's a tough  valk to do, especially since Kawamori employed a greater than usual share of animation magic in its design, much, I'm sure, to the frustration of toy companies. That Yamato's, and now Bandai's, designs are as good as they are is a testament to the talent and ingenuity of said companies and garage kit designers who've also done the design justice in previous years.

Anyway, fandoms are spoiled these days, even in a niche fandom like Macross where physical toys are a rarity. Plus, humans love to complain about everything. I take it in stride and judge for myself the merits of the offerings on-hand, as well as the merits of the complaints being levied, and try to arrive at a judicious decision. It has worked out pretty well so far. Cheers!

[Mog]

They’ve had almost four years to fix or improve this design but haven’t done squat.  We’ve pointed out all these issues way back when this prototype first came out.  And yet, no changes.

They could look at what Yamato did and crib notes on what succeeded and what they could improve upon.

I’ve sang Bandai’s praises before when they’ve pulled off ridiculously awesome renditions, such as Lion Voltron/Go-Lion and Vehicle Voltron/Dairugger XV.  I’m excited to see what improvements and surprises they have for their TV version of the SDF-1 that they revealed awhile back.

But there’s no way I’d ever back this.  And the YF-21 is probably my favorite Valk in all of Macross.  Yet not once have we ever seen this in Gerwalk.  Those bellyplates/hipguards are a design choice that cause more problems than it solves.  The size between the chest and back is way too thick.  There are compromises in the two modes we’ve already seen that we’ve discussed ad nauseam here.

But sure, let’s drop a boatload money on a subpar figure that Bandai isn’t willing to fix or improve. 

[borgified]

Just get the DX YF-21 and leave it in valk mode forever. If anyone still has the Yammie YF-21/VF-22s, keep it in battriod mode. 
As for the delimiter mode, that’s going to be another problem as it will look totally look very unsightly and very ugly. 

[Paco Grande]

12 hours ago, 26662 said:

OMG.  Can’t you just be happy Bandai cares enough to put their blood, sweat, and tears into a 20-yr old franchise (or thereabouts)?  Sweet Jesus, save me from these ignorant, unappreciative hordes.  You honestly believe your shitting on these pre-release images will manifest something better at this point?  Talk about cutting off one’s nose to spite their face.  Look at its construction and design!  These guys worked their ass off to translate 2D images into a miraculous 3D valk.  Go ahead and sit this one out.  I’ll buy enough for the both us us.

Thank you for posting that, it made me smile. I'm a rookie on this forum and I'm pretty shocked at how picky everyone is here. I'm also shocked how much money people in here are ready to drop. I'm used to Transformers fans and there is a huge amount of complaining there as well, but TF fans are so cheap and constantly complain about having to pay "so much" when the prices on TF products are typically low compared to other franchises. I'm a mechanical designer so I think I appreciate more just how much effort is required to produce something like this and also how difficult it can be when there are many constraints put on a project. Budget, etc. I'm sure Bandai only gave their team one kick at the can and there is no more budget to fix anything. The designers would happily work on it for years to perfect it, but that's not how it works in large companies. this design was most likely finished back in 2019 and it's just waiting for Bandai to pick a release date. Looks like they decided to wait for the anniversary next year.

At least you don't have endless posts in here about how they will "wait for the KO". Transformers fans are always waiting for the KO and it makes me sick. Takara Tomy posted a video about their new Missing Link Optimus Prime the other day and people are posting "I'll wait for the KO" in the comments of the video. Just disgusting behaviour imo. The designers work really hard on these figures and they deserve more respect. 

Steering back on topic, I'm not nearly as picky as others on here so I'm just happy this thing exists and I'll finally have a buddy for my YF-19 on the shelf! No, it's not perfect, but it's close enough for me and I can't wait to get it.

[Froy]

Just 2 words

"Anime magic"

The YF-21 is one of the impossibles to get near perfect, both, battroid mode and fighter mode in toy. 21 is a very slick figther mode to accommodate the chonk of battroid mode it has. 

[Lolicon]

3 hours ago, Paco Grande said:

Thank you for posting that, it made me smile. I'm a rookie on this forum and I'm pretty shocked at how picky everyone is here. I'm also shocked how much money people in here are ready to drop. I'm used to Transformers fans and there is a huge amount of complaining there as well, but TF fans are so cheap and constantly complain about having to pay "so much" when the prices on TF products are typically low compared to other franchises. I'm a mechanical designer so I think I appreciate more just how much effort is required to produce something like this and also how difficult it can be when there are many constraints put on a project. Budget, etc. I'm sure Bandai only gave their team one kick at the can and there is no more budget to fix anything. The designers would happily work on it for years to perfect it, but that's not how it works in large companies. this design was most likely finished back in 2019 and it's just waiting for Bandai to pick a release date. Looks like they decided to wait for the anniversary next year.

At least you don't have endless posts in here about how they will "wait for the KO". Transformers fans are always waiting for the KO and it makes me sick. Takara Tomy posted a video about their new Missing Link Optimus Prime the other day and people are posting "I'll wait for the KO" in the comments of the video. Just disgusting behaviour imo. The designers work really hard on these figures and they deserve more respect. 

Steering back on topic, I'm not nearly as picky as others on here so I'm just happy this thing exists and I'll finally have a buddy for my YF-19 on the shelf! No, it's not perfect, but it's close enough for me and I can't wait to get it.

The end customer does not care one whit about how much "hard work & effort" went into a product nor do they have any obligation to do so. If a product sucks or does not meet expectations, then it's a product that sucks or does not meet expectations.

[Paco Grande]

19 hours ago, Lolicon said:

The end customer does not care one whit about how much "hard work & effort" went into a product nor do they have any obligation to do so. If a product sucks or does not meet expectations, then it's a product that sucks or does not meet expectations.

That's a pretty crappy attitude to have about your fellow humans, but not surprising. If you truly do not care about Bandai or it's employees why are you buying the official and not a KO? Aren't you the person that paints all their landing gear white or something? You seem very unhappy with these products so I can't figure out why you spend so much money on them. 

Sorry to bother everyone, carry on with your hatred of this toy, even though it's already been established that the YF-21 cannot be made into a toy and look good in all three modes.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Paco Grande

[Mog]

Yamato’s 1/60 version did fairly well representing all three modes.  There’s the HMR (?) prototype that’s been shown here a few times.

Point being that if Bandai wanted to make a better looking battroid, then why did they make the choices they made?  It wouldn’t be too hard to slightly lengthen the hipguards and make them more in line with the lineart shape.

None of us are denying that compromises have to be made.  But what mode is being given preference?  

Battroid?  But why the short hipguards and the very thick chest?  Fighter mode?  But we see how they had to thicken up the back of the plane to fit the wider legs.  Gerwalk?  Then why have they never displayed it in that mode?

And it’s not hatred but frustration that they haven’t made any fixes over all these years.  It could be so much better, but Bandai feels they can just move forward without tweaking or fixing up the design.

[Chronocidal]

Yeah, it's definitely frustration.  We love these designs because we love how they look, and when Bandai makes choices that screw with the proportions and overall aesthetic without offering any clear benefit, it's intensely irritating.

This is not unique to this fanbase.  Go look up 1/6 scale figure sculpts, or die-cast metal aircraft discussion forums, and you might be surprised at how civil and well-mannered the discussions here are.  When people are passionate about a design, they will absolutely raise the torches and pitchforks for people screwing with what they see as how something should look.

The part that gets me up in arms the most is that it's not that this cannot be made better, because it has been proven in the past with better iterations of the design.  It's that Bandai is choosing not to use some obvious options to make all of the modes better.  That's the frustration.  It could be much better.  But Bandai gonna Bandai, and they're going to shove this mess out to market regardless, because they probably don't have anyone on the design team passionate enough about the design to care that it looks like ass.  And I definitely mean that in the literal sense, because the entire thing is utterly badonkulous.

"It's not just good.. it's good enough."

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Chronocidal

[Mog]

Bandai’s the guy in the suit.  The statuesque blonde in pink is us as collectors:

“Don’t you dare settle for fine!” 

[R0P3-F15H]

I kinda feel like maybe Covid was a big cause for the delay and lack of any updates, and it feels like the same debate around the YF-19 from Arcadia/Bandai… both are fantastic and I couldn’t hold one above the other. I’d get both if I could afford that but I went with the Bandai cause it had more bang for my buck in the end, point being the toy looks fine? It’s a good representation. No one else but Arcadia and Bandai are making them anyways and I know a good portion of the active users here have enough to get both when they come out, if you don’t enjoy it then you know that’s fine to! Nothing is ever going to be 100% perfect for everyone. ( though it’ll be a little upsetting if they don’t include the fast packs )

[Chronocidal]

2 minutes ago, R0P3-F15H said:

I kinda feel like maybe Covid was a big cause for the delay and lack of any updates, and it feels like the same debate around the YF-19 from Arcadia/Bandai… both are fantastic and I couldn’t hold one above the other. I’d get both if I could afford that but I went with the Bandai cause it had more bang for my buck in the end, point being the toy looks fine? It’s a good representation. No one else but Arcadia and Bandai are making them anyways and I know a good portion of the active users here have enough to get both when they come out, if you don’t enjoy it then you know that’s fine to! Nothing is ever going to be 100% perfect for everyone. ( though it’ll be a little upsetting if they don’t include the fast packs )

Nah, this debate isn't about which is better.  The Arcadia and Bandai YF-19s are both beautiful, with slightly different takes on the design with regard to how curvy or realistic the plane should be.  Arcadia went more animation-styled, while Bandai's looks more like a Hasegawa mold made to transform  They both made choices with pluses and minuses compared to the other, but they both succeeded in making something that's actually pleasing to display as both a fighter and battroid.

This YF-21 is not that.  It's got severe deviations from the established look of the plane in both modes we've been shown, some of which have absolutely nothing to do with the transformation at all, and Bandai just decided, "Nah, we like our design better than Kawamori's."  (I know it's the least of this figure's problems, but the fat cockpit cover bothers me to no end, because there is absolutely no reason to make it that shape.  Nothing in the nose transforms.)

Honestly, I know I'm exaggerating how bad I think it looks.  But it's just passable at best, and the aesthetic choices they've made are completely baffling.  It's not fun to look at in either mode, because your eye gets immediately drawn to the funky proportions.  It's not like they compromised one mode for the other, like Yamato did by shrinking the legs to fit in a slim fighter mode.  It's that all the modes look equally bad, because none of the proportions in any mode make it look good.

[HardlyNever]

Yeah, for me it's that the negativity gets overwhelming, at times.  I get why it happens, to some degree.  Images come out, and there isn't really much to discuss other than comparisons with previous versions, what you like and dislike about the mold, speculation on how certain things work, etc.  There isn't much else to do until the thing comes out (and even then, the primary thing to discuss is what ended up working and not working).

There are certain things I don't like about this particular design myself.  Overall, though, I'm excited about it, and have been since 2019.  It's fine to not like it. It's fine to even say why you don't like it, imo. I'm not here to carry water for Bandai. But it seems like it's the same people coming here again and again to go on and on about how much it sucks, like Bandai is going to read this and change it to suit their tastes or something insane.  If you don't like it, don't buy it (and I bet most of the complainers still will).

The thing has barely changed (if at all) since 2019.  We know what we're getting at this point.  It's the constant harping on about it that seems excessive, to me.  And lastly, we live in a time when you have access to technology to make your own version of these things.  If you think you can do better, then go do it. Make your perfect line-art accurate version and sell it as a KO or something.  As someone who has only dabbled in 3D sculpting and 3D printing, I can say, it is very difficult to make anything of high quality, and that is without the manufacturing constraints (price) that Bandai has to operate under.

[R0P3-F15H]

2 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Nah, this debate isn't about which is better.  The Arcadia and Bandai YF-19s are both beautiful, with slightly different takes on the design with regard to how curvy or realistic the plane should be.  Arcadia went more animation-styled, while Bandai's looks more like a Hasegawa mold made to transform  They both made choices with pluses and minuses compared to the other, but they both succeeded in making something that's actually pleasing to display as both a fighter and battroid.

This YF-21 is not that.  It's got severe deviations from the established look of the plane in both modes we've been shown, some of which have absolutely nothing to do with the transformation at all, and Bandai just decided, "Nah, we like our design better than Kawamori's."  (I know it's the least of this figure's problems, but the fat cockpit cover bothers me to no end, because there is absolutely no reason to make it that shape.  Nothing in the nose transforms.)

Honestly, I know I'm exaggerating how bad I think it looks.  But it's just passable at best, and the aesthetic choices they've made are completely baffling.  It's not fun to look at in either mode, because your eye gets immediately drawn to the funky proportions.  It's not like they compromised one mode for the other, like Yamato did by shrinking the legs to fit in a slim fighter mode.  It's that all the modes look equally bad, because none of the proportions in any mode make it look good.

Is it possible that they are holding out on a finished production model? Given how they are still showing off the prototype. I can see the complaints for sure but I think at this point I just want it out? I could agree on it being fine but as someone who is alright with close approximation it looks good. I really can’t tell the differences personally, never been to good at that. If anything I’d bet Arcadia will be close behind with their own? 
 

What I’m trying to get at is for folk to not be so dismayed, 

[Chronocidal]

It's always possible, it's just not usually how Bandai operates.  Maybe this will be an exception, who knows.  I totally get it about not wanting to focus so heavily on the negatives though.  We're all just screaming into the void hoping Bandai will somehow hear us.

Far as making my own version, I'm actually really tempted to try and tweak the Yamato design to fit bigger legs.  I think starting from a version that already works well would be a better place to begin than starting from scratch.  The design is slim enough that you could give it a little more bulk to the engines and underside without severely killing the looks, and there's actually some space in the upper backplate being wasted by the covers that make it presentable without the legs attached.  Hollow out the underside, and experiment with some new ways to position the legs, and I bet there is a bit more space to work with.

While I think Bandai went overboard on how long they made the back end, I do think making the engine humps wider and center space a little narrower might be worth it for the extra space.  If you can get the feet inside the calves entirely, and then fit thicker calves under the engine blocks, you could at least get the legs a little thicker.  I don't think the side profile has never been that bad, they're just really skinny from the front.

A part of me is still holding out a tiny hope for the Bandai version that we've just been seeing bad angles that make the back end look out of proportion.  Whatever the result, I do look forward to seeing some good top and side comparison pictures.

[Raptor One]

3 hours ago, Paco Grande said:

That's a pretty crappy attitude to have about your fellow humans, but not surprising. If you truly do not care about Bandai or it's employees why are you buying the official and not a KO? Aren't you the person that paints all their landing gear white or something? You seem very unhappy with these products so I can't figure out why you spend so much money on them. 

Sorry to bother everyone, carry on with your hatred of this toy, even though it's already been established that the YF-21 cannot be made into a toy and look good in all three modes.

Why is the option that we either get a toy that perfectly represents the lineart in all three modes, or we accept anything they give us? Is there no room for hope for a reasonable balance? 

The problem isn't that it doesn't look perfect in both modes, the problem is that Bandai has made seemingly unnecessary changes to the lineart that make every mode look worse. Now maybe they made those changes for reasons of sturdiness or longevity, but we can't really know that until the toy is out.

Either way, it's not very productive to discussion to berate people for complaining and not being grateful enough. If you're happy with the design then just say that. No need to imply others are bad people for discussing their perceived issues with a product they would otherwise be interested in/excited for.

[seti88]

4 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

 We're all just screaming into the void hoping Bandai will somehow hear us.

Maybe they are. Maybe whether they will listen is a different thing.. 🤪

[seti88]

5 hours ago, Mog said:

Bandai’s the guy in the suit.  The statuesque blonde in pink is us as collectors:

“Don’t you dare settle for fine!” 

Would you settle for a full-set release instead? 😅🤪

[aurance]

Doesn’t look like the gunpods attach in fighter mode, right?

[Mog]

^^Hard to tell.  

In the one pic we saw of the fighter underbelly, there’s a slot to connect the stand.

But those slots seem to be in the wrong spot to connect the gunpods:

[Shawn]

I believe these are for gunpods(large slot) or future fast packs

[Mog]

Fair enough.  

Looks like it’s there for the battroid prototype but missing for whatever reason on the fighter mode prototype they had way back when.

[ValkAddict]

45 minutes ago, Mog said:

^^Hard to tell.  

In the one pic we saw of the fighter underbelly, there’s a slot to connect the stand.

But those slots seem to be in the wrong spot to connect the gunpods:

^ Damn that bird is THICC .... 😮

[HardlyNever]

I'd be surprised/disappointed if you couldn't attach the guns in fighter.  I'm also worried as to why we haven't seen the fast packs yet.  This has to be a full set pack, right?  Right... 😅

[PointBlankSniper]

2 hours ago, HardlyNever said:

I'd be surprised/disappointed if you couldn't attach the guns in fighter.  I'm also worried as to why we haven't seen the fast packs yet.  This has to be a full set pack, right?  Right... 😅

seeing as they removed the pack from the 19's rerelease... and haven't even bothered with all the delta super packs...

I'm more worried they won't even release them as separate add-ons...

[borgified]

Bandai still has a long history of backlogs of items that still need to be done @PointBlankSniper. 
 

I seriously doubt that yet Supers will get made for the missing VF-31 (Arad and Chucky), Silpheed Armour/Supers for the remaining 31ax and a bunch of other teased stuff. Who knows if there will be add-ons for the long teased/not yet released DX YF-21. 
 

We might be in our geriatric ward or dead when Bandai gets off their butts get it made but it’s not on their list as Macross has a smaller footprint than compared to Gundam and other known releases. 

[M'Kyuun]

On 8/10/2023 at 11:57 AM, Mog said:

Yamato’s 1/60 version did fairly well representing all three modes.  There’s the HMR (?) prototype that’s been shown here a few times.

Point being that if Bandai wanted to make a better looking battroid, then why did they make the choices they made?  It wouldn’t be too hard to slightly lengthen the hipguards and make them more in line with the lineart shape.

None of us are denying that compromises have to be made.  But what mode is being given preference?  

Battroid?  But why the short hipguards and the very thick chest?  Fighter mode?  But we see how they had to thicken up the back of the plane to fit the wider legs.  Gerwalk?  Then why have they never displayed it in that mode?

And it’s not hatred but frustration that they haven’t made any fixes over all these years.  It could be so much better, but Bandai feels they can just move forward without tweaking or fixing up the design.

I totally agree with your first sentence. As a fan who favors battroid, the skinny legs were off-putting, not to mention the floppy hip joints. If Arcadia tweaked the design to feature more proportional legs with a potentially slightly chunkier back end to the fighter mode, that would be a must-buy. I do not, however, under any circumstances, want a parts-former. Both Bandai and Arcadia have proven that they have the ingenuity and talent to make this work as a fully transformable toy. At the prices these toys command, I neither want nor expect less.

Regarding the shortened belly plates on the Bandai model, I actually prefer that over the long ones on the Yamato, which never stayed in place and always seemed to be in the way, obscuring the legs when trying to put them in a pose that would actually hold the damn thing upright. Honestly, I just straight-up hate the belly plates. I've always wondered, given the size and shape of the legs, why Kawamori didn't integrate them better or work in some sort of transformation to flatten them out more in fighter instead of turning the thing into a shell-former. It seems a bit lazy, especially for a guy who generally does an impressive job of integrating bot bits rather seamlessly into the flight modes. Not only did he cheat the leg size in his art, but he employed a rather cheap technique to cover them up. I'm hoping both Bandai and Arcadia find good work-arounds although at this point, I guess we pretty much know what we're getting from Bandai. It's too thick front to back and the arms are bit smallish and short, but it still looks pretty good to me, good enough for a purchase.