Bandai 1/60 DX Chogokin Macross Plus YF-21

[vlenhoff]

8 hours ago, sqidd said:

Here are the Cliffs Notes:

-There have been pictures released of a new Bandai DX YF-21.

-Release date unknown.

-45% of the people complained about it.

-45% of the people are nit picking it to death.

-10% are happy with how it looks.

-100% of people are buying at least one anyway.

 

Did I get everything?

 

Yup @sqidd, pretty much. I browsed over 12 pages, and it's basically it.

You guys have an excellent eye for proportions.

[sqidd]

12 minutes ago, vlenhoff said:

Yup @sqidd, pretty much. I browsed over 12 pages, and it's basically it.

You guys have an excellent eye for proportions.

One of my useless superpowers.

[jrhudson311]

Yea I have need watching the thread for a couple weeks with all that has been said.  I'm over here just quietly thinking how what we have seen isn't even the final design........

[505thAirborne]

I'm going to patiently wait to see the Official release pics of what this 21 looks like before ripping it a new one. 

So far at the end of the day I like it, but it still has room for improvements. 

Am I going to get it? Indeed! 

[Mog]

I understand it’s not final, but I’ve seen a case where design flaws were never corrected or addressed from prototype all the way to final production version (CM’s Legioss-Tread combo).

I’ve been passionately complaining about certain issues, because I know Bandai could easily fix it.  And it would make the final product that much better, especially if the idea is to place an emphasis on battroid mode.

As one of the few idiots that disassembled a Yamato YF-21 to customize it, I’m curious to see how Bandai’s version differs and what changes they’ll do to pull off/improve the transformation.  But if a change doesn’t make sense or makes me think, “Why’d they make that choice?”, I feel I gotta call it out.

[Mommar]

To me it seems like, since this thing is so dependent on anime magic, making the proper transforming toy out of the box would simply require skinnier legs.  And then, just like a lot of us do with the swappable hands for Gerwalk/Battroid, you're going to have to have swappable legs to make those two modes look more correct if you like.  Kind of expensive since legs are more complex than some hand pieces but if you want to nail the look in all three modes I really don't believe there's another option (until some sort of new material is invented.)

[Sanity is Optional]

I just want something that poses and looks good, while still being recognizable. I don't need perfect anime accuracy, usually I can't even remember how long the wings attached to the legs are supposed to be (as an example). I just know that having them Yamato length makes posing the thing a pain.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Sanity is Optional

[Chronocidal]

18 minutes ago, Mommar said:

To me it seems like, since this thing is so dependent on anime magic, making the proper transforming toy out of the box would simply require skinnier legs.  And then, just like a lot of us do with the swappable hands for Gerwalk/Battroid, you're going to have to have swappable legs to make those two modes look more correct if you like.  Kind of expensive since legs are more complex than some hand pieces but if you want to nail the look in all three modes I really don't believe there's another option (until some sort of new material is invented.)

I honestly don't think it's impossible with this mold though, for a few reasons.  Ankle weirdness aside, I think they've nailed the legs, and done it within a very passable looking fighter mode.

The largest problems I'm seeing are things that should not interfere with those large legs for the most part. 
- The belly plates have to lay flat underneath everything, and I don't know why they can't be longer, rather than making so much of them part of the backpack.
- The arms have no reason to be so short and stumpy when there is a boatload of space alongside the back end to extend them, and make the tails either larger or farther back.
- The nose is too short, but much like the VF-11, it plays no part in the rest of the transformation, and simply lays down over the torso.  You can just extend it, or make it collapse like the Yamato.
- This one is extremely nit-picky, but the cockpit is just shaped wrong.  I get that maybe it's just an aesthetic choice on Bandai's part, but that doesn't mean it isn't wrong compared with every other source I've seen.  While I don't like it, it's also not going to keep me from buying it.

The rest of the choices with the design don't really bother me.  The big honking bulky engine nacelles aren't my favorite feature, but they don't look that far off a lot of the art, and I understand the need for that space for the legs.

I think the core structure of this YF-21 has a good shot at being very good in all modes, they just need to fine tune the bits surrounding that core.

[jenius]

53 minutes ago, Mommar said:

To me it seems like, since this thing is so dependent on anime magic, making the proper transforming toy out of the box would simply require skinnier legs.  And then, just like a lot of us do with the swappable hands for Gerwalk/Battroid, you're going to have to have swappable legs to make those two modes look more correct if you like.  Kind of expensive since legs are more complex than some hand pieces but if you want to nail the look in all three modes I really don't believe there's another option (until some sort of new material is invented.)

Inflatable legs!

[Pontus]

The bigger question is, how does air get from the intakes to the jet exhaust with those legs in the way, and where is the jet/reactor engine?  It was just badly designed from the get go.

[borgified]

33 minutes ago, Pontus said:

The bigger question is, how does air get from the intakes to the jet exhaust with those legs in the way, and where is the jet/reactor engine?  It was just badly designed from the get go.

This is my thoughts.

According to Macross Mecha Manual on the General Galaxy 21 fighter to gerwalk line art, the inlet for the air goes into the front two air scoops and then it goes upwards towards the engines that are above the Q-Rau legs (tucked in the bottom body panels).

Edit: Is there a better pic if anyone can find it (Full diagram with the internal placement of the engines, etc)? 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by borgified

[anime52k8]

1 hour ago, borgified said:

 Is there a better pic if anyone can find it (Full diagram with the internal placement of the engines, etc)? 

From the master file book:

[sqidd]

1 hour ago, anime52k8 said:

From the master file book:

That inlet to the compressor is a aerodynamic disaster.

[no3Ljm]

1 hour ago, anime52k8 said:

From the master file book:

The leg is super thin. Yamato did nailed it on their 1/60 figure. 

 

[Lolicon]

Maybe Bandai should have included two sets of legs. One super thin set for perfect transformation, and a thicker set for a beefier battroid. 

[sqidd]

1 minute ago, Lolicon said:

Maybe Bandai should have included two sets of legs. One super thin set for perfect transformation, and a thicker set for a beefier battroid. 

They could have Arcadia make them. They're really good at making legs.

[borgified]

2 minutes ago, Lolicon said:

Maybe Bandai should have included two sets of legs. One super thin set for perfect transformation, and a thicker set for a beefier battroid. 

 

1 minute ago, sqidd said:

They could have Arcadia make them. They're really good at making legs.

And pull the leg fiasco just like the SV-51.   

[Sildani]

Better than pulling the finger...

[Bolt]

I don't think it would be considered a "perfect transformation " if you had to swap out the legs for different modes.

Also, all the other valks on your display shelf would be laughing at it..

[seti88]

The YF-21 design relies on a far bit of anime magic, so am ok with bandai's take on it.

In fact, am sort of glad bandai has a design direction on some of the valks, ie beefy valks. 

 

[no3Ljm]

Parts-former! 

 

Parts-former! 

 

Parts-former! 

 

[seti88]

The 21 has the ability to eject limbs! 

Its not a parts-former, its a gimmick. 

 

[derex3592]

2000's ---- MW members --- "We demand perfect transformation Valks! … NOT parts formers as long as they are reasonably priced!"

20-Teens -- MW members -- "We demand anime accurate transforming Valks!  We don't care what they cost! We'll pay it!"

2020 and beyond -- MW members --- " We demand parts forming parts for all 3 modes on our Valks cause yeh...that anime magic accuracy thing isn't really possible on some stuff,....but does it have to cost $400+ per Valk?!" 

[505thAirborne]

38 minutes ago, no3Ljm said:

Parts-former! 

 

Parts-former! 

 

Parts-former! 

 

This is the one Valk that I would have no issue with being a Parts former. 

Kind of useless if Battroid looks damn near perfect but fighter mode is iffy or Vice Versa... If swapping out parts makes perfection possible, I say do it. 

 

[Lolicon]

I love parts swapping. That's why I'm such a huge fan of the HMR VF-1. 

[Guyffon]

Not unless its a partsformer like the vf100 vf25....those were a nightmare

[sqidd]

6 hours ago, seti88 said:

The 21 has the ability to eject limbs! 

Its not a parts-former, its a gimmick. 

 

Touche' 

[sqidd]

6 hours ago, 505thAirborne said:

This is the one Valk that I would have no issue with being a Parts former. 

Kind of useless if Battroid looks damn near perfect but fighter mode is iffy or Vice Versa... If swapping out parts makes perfection possible, I say do it. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Lolicon said:

I love parts swapping. That's why I'm such a huge fan of the HMR VF-1. 

On this one, because there is SO much anime magic I would be perfectly OK with some parts-forming. I would rather have an attractive representation than the ability to say "It's perfect transformation".

I may not be the best person to ask though. I just recently saw a high end Optimus Prime that came in robot and truck mode in the same box. Neither transformed. And you know what? Both looked fantastic.

I think I would be OK with a 21 in Fighter that doesn't transform and another that will transform between Gerwalk and Battroid. Heck, I'd probably be ok with non transforming ones for all three modes if they can really nail the aesthetic. And because they don't transform how much does cost go down per unit. The way I collect that would actually work out really well.

[no3Ljm]

17 minutes ago, sqidd said:

I think I would be OK with a 21 in Fighter that doesn't transform and another that will transform between Gerwalk and Battroid. Heck, I'd probably be ok with non transforming ones for all three modes if they can really nail the aesthetic. And because they don't transform how much does cost go down per unit. The way I collect that would actually work out really well.

Sqidd, I think this set is for you. Too bad it's in 1/200 scale. 

I think Yamato really nailed the YF-21 in their 1/60 scale, GN-U Dou figure, and in their Variable Fighter Collection. If it comes with display stand like that, I don't mind owning 3 for each mode.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by no3Ljm

[sqidd]

4 minutes ago, no3Ljm said:

Sqidd, I think this set is for you. Too bad it's in 1/200 scale. 

I think Yamato really nailed the YF-21 in their 1/60 scale, GN-U Dou figure, and in their Variable Fighter Collection. If it comes with display stand like that, I don't mind owning 3 for each mode.

 

Yeah, 1/200 isn't cutting it.

[Raptor One]

18 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

I honestly don't think it's impossible with this mold though, for a few reasons.  Ankle weirdness aside, I think they've nailed the legs, and done it within a very passable looking fighter mode.

The largest problems I'm seeing are things that should not interfere with those large legs for the most part. 
- The belly plates have to lay flat underneath everything, and I don't know why they can't be longer, rather than making so much of them part of the backpack.
- The arms have no reason to be so short and stumpy when there is a boatload of space alongside the back end to extend them, and make the tails either larger or farther back.
- The nose is too short, but much like the VF-11, it plays no part in the rest of the transformation, and simply lays down over the torso.  You can just extend it, or make it collapse like the Yamato.
- This one is extremely nit-picky, but the cockpit is just shaped wrong.  I get that maybe it's just an aesthetic choice on Bandai's part, but that doesn't mean it isn't wrong compared with every other source I've seen.  While I don't like it, it's also not going to keep me from buying it.

The rest of the choices with the design don't really bother me.  The big honking bulky engine nacelles aren't my favorite feature, but they don't look that far off a lot of the art, and I understand the need for that space for the legs.

I think the core structure of this YF-21 has a good shot at being very good in all modes, they just need to fine tune the bits surrounding that core.

This sums up my thoughts on it as well

[no3Ljm]

9 hours ago, sqidd said:

Yeah, 1/200 isn't cutting it.

But you have to agree that it looks nice to have a set like that, right? Faithful in line art, good proportions, yet no need to transform to worry how the belly plates would close for those thick legs. All it needs is to have it in 1/60 scale, right? 

 

[sqidd]

1 hour ago, no3Ljm said:

But you have to agree that it looks nice to have a set like that, right? Faithful in line art, good proportions, yet no need to transform to worry how the belly plates would close for those thick legs. All it needs is to have it in 1/60 scale, right? 

 

Oh yeah, for sure. In 1/60 I'd buy them.

[rematron]

My attraction to these toys is all about the engineering.  I’d rather have it not follow the line art if the line art is all anime magic.  I’d rather appreciate what is possible aside from the standard suspension of disbelief.  Just my opinion.  That said, I’m definitely buying at least one of the Bandai 21s regardless of the final result. 

[M'Kyuun]

6 hours ago, rematron said:

My attraction to these toys is all about the engineering.  I’d rather have it not follow the line art if the line art is all anime magic.  I’d rather appreciate what is possible aside from the standard suspension of disbelief.  Just my opinion.  That said, I’m definitely buying at least one of the Bandai 21s regardless of the final result. 

I share the same view. The point to these DX toys is that they transform between all three modes. If you want ideal representations of the different modes, buy a toy or a model that offers that without the concessions that transformation dictates. The absolute last solution I want to see employed in the DX line is parts-forming.  I'm a battroid guy, so Bandai's version thus far appeals more to me than my Yamato, which I boxed up years ago due to its instability and disproportionate appearance owing to its too-skinny legs. Since no release date has been given, I take that as a sign that Bandai wants to give themselves the time they need to refine the design, hopefully giving heed to fan feedback to inform improvements. As it stands from the pics, I'm already happier with it than my old Yammie.  Also, I like the shorter hip skirts, as I also always felt like the longer ones on the Yamato got in the way and made posing more difficult. Moreover, the hinges tended to become weak and they wouldn't hold the panels up. Shorter panels, IMHO, are more practical, even if they're not entirely accurate.

I'm sure Bandai didn't enter this project without recognizing the engineering challenges involved, as Kawamori-san, more than usual, employed a great deal of idealization to each illustration across modes in his lineart. Moreover, I assume at least one or two of the Bandai designers own or have handled the Yamato YF-21, which continues to hold its place as the best perfect transformable representation ever made, at least officially, which offers an excellent toy to study in preparation for creating their own.