the white drew carey Posted January 19, 2004 Posted January 19, 2004 OK, in Macross, does each sqaudron have it's own set of numbers. IE- The squadron commander is always 001? Or do the numbers keep going up and up and up, and Skull's commander is 001 because they're "the best"? The again, if it just goes numerically, what happens when they reach 999? This has been bugging me for a while, and I never thought to ask here, which is probably the best place for me to find an asnwer. Quote
UN Spacy Posted January 19, 2004 Posted January 19, 2004 Wouldn't this be more appropriate in the n00b pinned topic at the top of the page? Quote
Anubis Posted January 19, 2004 Posted January 19, 2004 (edited) This could be more of a debate topic. If they go past 999 they could always jump to 4 digits after that, if that was how they organized it. At Hill AFB we had 76 F-16's ranging from #357 up through 2174, divied up into 3 squadrons. There were batches that were sequential among the 76. But then again, in DYRL, they kind of show that the tail numbers were squadron specific, as they did cycle through 3 different Skull 001's, Roy's, then Max's, then finally Hikaru's 1S's after he became Skull leader. Hikaru also had 2 1A's both 011. It would make it a little easier given the turn-around time of new valks replacing destroyed ones constantly. Edited January 19, 2004 by Anubis Quote
Yohsho Posted January 19, 2004 Posted January 19, 2004 I always thought the CF's don't get numbers on their planes cuz they get blown up so much. That saves a whole bunch of #'s for the good ppl. Quote
the white drew carey Posted January 19, 2004 Author Posted January 19, 2004 Wouldn't this be more appropriate in the n00b pinned topic at the top of the page? Ha! It doesn't belong in the nOOb thread because I am not a nOOb and this isn't a nOOb question. nOOb questions are usually readily answerable by the more dedicated fan, rather than the more casual fan. I find myself to be a more dedicated fan, yet cannot determine through sources available to me exactly how the numbering is done. Quote
KingNor Posted January 19, 2004 Posted January 19, 2004 i dont' think this is a noob question. in my opinion, each squadron would start over with numbers ie: skull 001 Vermillion 001 Red 001 what ever... seems to make more sence to keep the numbers low and stick to code names. and if you keep the numbers tha way its very easy to see who you're talking to in the chain of command. if you have Skull 001 you know your talking to the leader of skull squadron. if the numbers were arbitrary, youd have situations where your talking to say skull 384 and not have any idea where in the chain of command he is. just a thought. i don't know how they do it in the real millitary. Quote
the white drew carey Posted January 19, 2004 Author Posted January 19, 2004 i dont' think this is a noob question.in my opinion, each squadron would start over with numbers ie: skull 001 Vermillion 001 Red 001 what ever... seems to make more sence to keep the numbers low and stick to code names. and if you keep the numbers tha way its very easy to see who you're talking to in the chain of command. if you have Skull 001 you know your talking to the leader of skull squadron. if the numbers were arbitrary, youd have situations where your talking to say skull 384 and not have any idea where in the chain of command he is. just a thought. i don't know how they do it in the real millitary. Part of my confusion lies with the TV series- Once Max and Millia pick up their VF-1J's, his number is 202 and her's is 303. Quote
Anubis Posted January 19, 2004 Posted January 19, 2004 (edited) Within each squadron, it's possible there are numbers reserved for the J's. Since there were not that many of those they could have went with 101, 202, 303, 404, etc for the J's to make them stand out. Since there would only be one S, each squadron would have a 001 (Red Rose 001, Black Knight 001, Skull 001, Black Widow 001, etc.) The A's would just go staight down the line, probably starting with 002. The TV numbers were never really specified very much, and probably not given that much thought too. Animation budget wouldn't have allowed for numbers on everything. Even M7 has no numbers on anything. Not surprising since they always used stock footage for the VF-11's. DYRL on the other hand went straight down the line in numbering for the A models. The callsigns even matched the numbers on the plane. The lone J that was shown was probably 101, but we'll never know with it's one second of screen time. I doubt they would use aircraft production numbers like we do, as with so many valks being destroyed each sortie, it would be much easier to just cycle a new jet into the Skull 017 slot each time. Edited January 19, 2004 by Anubis Quote
Aztek Posted January 19, 2004 Posted January 19, 2004 I'm "assyoume-ng" that they would have a seperate serial number (serno) for the aircraft themselves as well as an identifier for the unit the bird is assigned to. Most aircraft in the Air Force inventory are assigned a given serno like 62-1583 for a -130 aircraft. 62 being the year manufactured and -1583 as the sequence built that year. -16s and -15s follow suit. Sometimes the last number of the built year and the last 3 of the built sequence are combined for a 4 digit serno as in 2583 for the above example. This happens more on fighters since there is more of them, and a shorter number is more easily passed on in dialogue. On the Thunderbirds, in addition to their own specific serno a formation identifier is also given. As in 1 for the lead bird and usually unit commander, and 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. So you will see a big "2" painted on the number 2 bird. Any modified -16 with any serno can have the number 2 assigned when assigned to the T-birds squadron. I'm explaining all this because it's probably what happens with the dedicated flying squadrons in Macross. As aircraft are destroyed new ones adopt the paint scheme and number sequence of the aircraft they are replacing. I'm sure it wouldn't be uncommon for a Vermillion -011 to be retrofitted to replace a skull 001 if the need arises. I'm sure they had spares lined up to fill the gaps as the destroyed aircraft. Quote
David Hingtgen Posted January 19, 2004 Posted January 19, 2004 Macross is clearly following USN practice for aircraft markings. They even use "VF" for squadrons (with an S added for space). And they use modex numbers as the main identifiers, not bureau/serial numbers. Because 112 is easier than 161855. Serial numbers are there, but not easily visible and only used for "accounting purposes" etc. I wonder if we'll ever see the Macross equivalent of the F/A-18, and thus a SVFA squadron. Or a dedicated night-attack UN Marines version, thus an SVMFA(AW) squadron. Quote
Opus Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 Hikaru's 1D is referred to as VT102 but in some scenes it's marked VT1023. I don't really know what that means but it's been bugging me for nigh on 20 years now. Quote
Pat Payne Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 It means that somebody made a serious boo-boo in the continuity dept. Quote
the white drew carey Posted January 21, 2004 Author Posted January 21, 2004 It means that somebody made a serious boo-boo in the continuity dept. Also, is that a Devo helmet in the middle of that red triangle? Quote
Pat Payne Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 You know, you might be right...Is this their way of tellign us the REAL truth about devolution? "Well, It all started 50,000 years ago, when aliens built this big city in the Pacific...but you really wanna hear 'Whip It,' right?" Quote
bsu legato Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 Also, is that a Devo helmet in the middle of that red triangle? That's one of the many stencils on the Valk. Below it, just off camera, is an arrow that reads: Rescue In case of Devo, pull handle. Quote
scand Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 One good point to mention is: Why give your ace pilots or higher ranking officers an indicator of who they are? Clearly if the enemy realizes that 001 is the squadron commander why not just gang up on that plane and take it out and leave the rest of the squadron is dis-array. The same can hold for the 1J theory. The enemy could realize these aren't standard planes by there markings thus changing attack stratagies. Quote
Pat Payne Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 In that case, why, in WW2, should they have painted kill marks on aces' aircraft? Because psychologically, it says to both sides: This guy's badass. Besides, at hundreds of MPH, are you really going to have time to see every difference and note the number? Quote
scand Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 The number on the right wing is clearly visible if that's not enough let's just paint a big yellow strip across the body of the plane. Quote
David Hingtgen Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 We DO highlight commander's planes. Where do you think the bright yellow and black Jolly Rogers planes come from? Or shark-mouthed Sundowners planes? Air Force isn't big on it, usually just accenting the tailcode/serial number and modifying the fin-stripe, but the Navy goes all-out. (Unless it's the early 90's, and they're taking low-vis SERIOUSLY) Quote
wolfx Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 One good point to mention is: Why give your ace pilots or higher ranking officers an indicator of who they are? Clearly if the enemy realizes that 001 is the squadron commander why not just gang up on that plane and take it out and leave the rest of the squadron is dis-array. The same can hold for the 1J theory. The enemy could realize these aren't standard planes by there markings thus changing attack stratagies. I think in a heat of a battle, there's no way to realise the "markings" and what nots that indicate that a plane is a squadron leader, unless it was colored bright neon green when others are drab grey...... Learnt that from Warhammer 40k and why you can't target heroes. And about kill markers....if they really had some adverse psychological effect, i'll paint them all over my plane....and haxx0rz their morale. Quote
Oihan Posted January 22, 2004 Posted January 22, 2004 Wouldn't this be more appropriate in the n00b pinned topic at the top of the page? Ha! It doesn't belong in the nOOb thread because I am not a nOOb and this isn't a nOOb question. nOOb questions are usually readily answerable by the more dedicated fan, rather than the more casual fan. I find myself to be a more dedicated fan, yet cannot determine through sources available to me exactly how the numbering is done. Nah...you are a newb. ;P Quote
Bub Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 My assumptions: a) 001 = the first two "zero"s are reserved for the VF-1S b) 013 = is the 3rd VF-1A which is a subordinate of 001. How do we know it is a VF-1A? because it has "0" as the first digit How do we know it belongs to 001's group? because of the second digit which is "1". How do we know it is the 3rd "A"? 3rd because of the number "3" in "013" c) Hikaru is 011 which means he is the first VF-1A under 001's command. d) 101 = is the first VF-1J which is a subordinate of 001 How do we know it is a VF-1J? because it has "0" in the middle How do we know it belongs to 001's group? because of the first digit which is "1". How do we know it is the 1st "J"? because of the last number "1" in "101" e) 102 would be the second VF-1J of the same squad. f) 202 = is the second VF-1J which is a suborniate of 002. With these assumptions, we can conclude: If a plane has "zero" as the first digit, it is a VF-1A; If the "zero" is in the middle, it is a VF-1J. Quote
JB0 Posted January 23, 2004 Posted January 23, 2004 (edited) With these assumptions, we can conclude: If a plane has "zero" as the first digit, it is a VF-1A; If the "zero" is in the middle, it is a VF-1J. Mild logic problem... If the first digit is a 0, it is a 1A OR a 1S. If the second digit is a 0 it is a 1J OR a 1S. Only analysis of both the first and second digits under your system can yield conclusive ID without a view of the head. Edited February 3, 2004 by JB0 Quote
Bub Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 With these assumptions, we can conclude: If a plane has "zero" as the first digit, it is a VF-1A; If the "zero" is in the middle, it is a VF-1J. Mild logic problem... If the first digit is a 0, it is a 1A OR a 1S. If the second digit is a 0 it is a 1J OR a 1S. Only analysis of both the first and second digits under your system can yield conclusive ID without a view of the head. Maybe I should add: If the first two digits are "0", it is a VF-1S. Quote
Duke Togo Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 I just wanted to post to represent all of the "stupid people" here at MacrossWorld, me being the stupidist. This forum has some serious bugginess going on right now... Quote
Agent ONE Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 The TV show was loaded with inacuracy, however the only 001 seen was the Skull... The movie left you with the impression that there was only 1 squadron, that being the Skull. Quote
Draykov Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 Also, is that a Devo helmet in the middle of that red triangle? It's a beautiful world! Quote
Zentrandude Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 i would say the numbers are completely random after 001. the story makers dont have time to think of the numbers for each plane and how it should apply. Quote
Draykov Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 (edited) i would say the numbers are completely random after 001.the story makers dont have time to think of the numbers for each plane and how it should apply. Well, I don't know about that. I think the intent was to mimick USN aircraft numeration, like Dave suggested. Like we've been lead to believe, DYRL? is supposed to reflect the accurate look of the SDF Macross universe, and numbers on the VF-1s were sequential (at least to some extent). I imagine that there is a certain set of numbers used for either a carrier air group or a squadron and repeated in various other CAGs or squadrons. It wouldn't be too hard to discern Skull 001 from say, Longhorn 001 at a glance (assuming there are certain squadron markings being used, either low-vis or otherwise), so the fact that they might share the same ID number wouldn't be much of an issue, even while assigned to the same carrier. As for the "1023" on the VF-1D, if it wasn't an error, one might guess that 1023 is part of the aircraft's entire BuNo and the 102 was derived from it. Edited February 2, 2004 by Draykov Quote
Hurin Posted February 3, 2004 Posted February 3, 2004 (edited) I have no idea, but I would think that the three-digit number should somehow denote squadron as well. I mean, if each squadron has a 001 and a 011, things would be murky when referring to fighters by only their tail number. . . and, well, I'd assume the numbers are there to remove murkiness. Hypothetically, let's look at it this way: I'm Hikaru (I wish!) in the pilots's seat of my VF-1J with tail number 011. I'm shot at by another valkyrie. . . a friendly fire incident. As he whizzes by, I catch his tail number: 021. I then call Misa and complain: "Misa! I was just fired upon by a friendly: Tail number 021." Misa: "Which squadron?" Hikaru: "I don't know, he went by so fast." Misa: "Well, that could be either Skull 021, Ghost 021, Blue 021, or Ghost 021. All four of those squadrons are in your area." Hikaru: "Nevermind. . ." For that reason, I wouldn't think that each squadron starts over again at 001. Perhaps Skull-1 is 001 because it is the premiere squadron on the Macross? I really have no clue. . . but the idea of just numbering each squadron over again starting at 001 seems frought with ambiguities and problems. H P.S. Sorry if those squadron names aren't canon. Drew a blank when I tried to come up with some ones that I remembered from the show. Edited February 3, 2004 by Hurin Quote
the white drew carey Posted February 3, 2004 Author Posted February 3, 2004 IIRC- Just like the real military, don't they go by flight numbers when on a sortie regardless of their squadron identification? Quote
Draykov Posted February 3, 2004 Posted February 3, 2004 IIRC- Just like the real military, don't they go by flight numbers when on a sortie regardless of their squadron identification? They have different call signs on different missions. What was Whiskey one on Tuesday may be Showtime one zero on Friday. Quote
the white drew carey Posted February 3, 2004 Author Posted February 3, 2004 IIRC- Just like the real military, don't they go by flight numbers when on a sortie regardless of their squadron identification? They have different call signs on different missions. What was Whiskey one on Tuesday may be Showtime one zero on Friday. Yeah, I meant to point that out as well, but forgot. Oops!!! Thanks for reminding me, and mentioning it as well! Quote
CAG Posted February 3, 2004 Posted February 3, 2004 One good point to mention is: Why give your ace pilots or higher ranking officers an indicator of who they are? Clearly if the enemy realizes that 001 is the squadron commander why not just gang up on that plane and take it out and leave the rest of the squadron is dis-array. The same can hold for the 1J theory. The enemy could realize these aren't standard planes by there markings thus changing attack stratagies. I don't think the number's important. If they want to kill a good pilot they just have to aim at the VFs that aren't Brown and White! Quote
the white drew carey Posted February 3, 2004 Author Posted February 3, 2004 LOL! Another way to look at it: Why do the Zentran have the Glaug which is reserved for higher-ranking personnel? Aim for the Glaug, decapitate the enemy. Why is Millia's Q-Rau red in DYRL? Aim for the Red Q-Rau, kill a hottie. Even though visual recognition is hardly needed these days, the marking and whatnot harken back to the days when it was vitally important. Quote
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