Macross Delta Zettai Live!!!!!! - Available on Blu-ray Sept 28, 2022

[Chronocidal]

I think the most frustrating thing about the character is that she's a cheap and, at this point, exhaustively overused tease.

They DO NOT want to do anything to expound on anything involving who it is.. except implying REPEATEDLY that it's probably a character that EVERYONE has wanted to know what happened to for forty years.

They don't want to commit to making the story, they just keep stringing the fanbase along with cheap dribbles of nothing.

I didn't mind the use in Frontier much, because they just sounded like a shady background figure.  Now.. it's just the worst kind of fan-disservice to keep teasing who it is over and over without being willing to actually even attempt to fulfill anyone's expectations.

Which.. maybe they honestly can't, and that's why they're not willing to try.  I don't even know anymore.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Chronocidal

[Seto Kaiba]

15 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

So... I take it that Lady M is generally disliked by fans?

I guess it depends what she means to you.

There are some fans who are just excited about "Lady M"  raising the theoretical possibility of more legacy characters returning than just Max and Exsedol.

There are others who are annoyed with "Lady M" because one of the franchise's most enduring mysteries got an incredibly lame anticlimactic answer.

And, of course, there are still more who are considering the narrative implications from Absolute Live!!!!!! and saying "Wow, that doesn't make sense AT ALL."

 

15 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

I mean as an overarching narrative device, she holds far too much power. I don't see future entries in the franchise being able to build upon the (admittedly vague and hand-wavy) "galactic canon" while ignoring her the same way older entries have been able to casually dance around each other.

The only way to ignore her role in the wider galactic goings-on would be to ignore the wider galactic goings-on entirely and severely limit the scope of the next Macross story... which, frankly, wouldn't be a bad idea anyway.

That's also the problem with her role in the narrative of Absolute Live!!!!!!, she wields too much power.

Spoiler

Absolute Live!!!!!! makes no attempt to offer any kind of explanation of, or rationalization for, the way that Lady M wields such enormous influence over the New UN Gov't and New UN Forces that she's able to singlehandedly set policy for a galaxy-spanning democratic government in complete secrecy.

The whole thing makes no sense.

The individual behind the alias "Lady M" is an anonymous person of unknown qualifications apart from the fact that they communicate using the frequency reserved for use by the Megaroad-01.  She could be anyone.  Without Exsedol's never before mentioned magical telepathy and Heimdall's tracing her transmissions to their source to confirm that "Lady M" is truly connected to the Megaroad-01, she could also have been anywhere.

Even if her location and identity could be verified conclusively, the best-qualified individual on the ship is still just a First Space War veteran and newly-minted captain who's spent fifty-two years and counting trapped in a fold fault and cut off from the wider galaxy.  NOTHING about that qualifies "Lady M" to have any more say in how to run the government than any other average voter.  There's certainly nothing about that that would justify her appointing herself the sole arbiter of "dangerous knowledge" and what new technologies and innovations humanity is "ready" for.  How could she even be believed to be reasonably informed about current events when she's stuck in a fold fault and has been since the dawn of humanity's interstellar age.

It's just ridiculous if you think about it even a little.  There's no reason for anyone to listen to "Lady M" at all, never mind take direction from her.

Spoiler

It's especially problematic given that the bans that she supposedly championed are mainly nonsense or series continuity errors.

Humanity made widespread use of cloning technology to repopulate after the First Space War and many early emigrant ships including the Megaroad-01 are crewed in part or in full by clones.  Mass cloning was stopped because of an uptick in recessive genetic diseases, but it still has a downright enormous number of obvious beneficial medical applications (like rejection-proof organ replacements or full-body replacement in the event of catastrophic injury).  

We do see the harmful side of one particular type of cybernetic implants, but limb and sense organ replacements are shown to be quite effective at improving quality of life for those who've lost limbs, eyes, etc. in previous works like Macross R and Macross 7.  At no point are Nicolas Berthier or Oscar Brauhitsch's cybernetics presented as being illegal.

That adoption of advanced unmanned fighters can reduce or prevent human casualties in conflict is simple common sense.  Her opposition to it kind of ignores that Ghosts were already effectively sharing the main fighter designation with the Nightmare Plus in Frontier.  They're depicted as undeniably effective in Absolute Live!!!!!! too, with those Sv-303 Vivasvats absolutely spanking Delta Flight and the Aerial Knights, and them even struggling to keep up with their own Ghosts operating under recorded combat data from the Vivasvat.  Frontier-era materals even describe some emigrant fleets as having all-Ghost air forces instead of manned VFs.

The AI question is also kind of strange because, on the one hand self-aware virtuoids WERE banned after the Sharon Apple incident but on the other we know the same AI tech was applied to the Ghosts in Frontier and that even personality emulation AI has worked fine in the Macross Frontier audio dramas as long as you don't model it on a crazy person like Myung Fang Lone.  Research into it was previously indicated to be restricted and requiring government oversight and permission, but not outright banned.

They could maybe salvage the whole mess if they avoided the Delta movies entirely and built on the TV series version of "Lady M" who was just an enigmatic CEO of unknown and dubious origin who existed mainly as a one-woman(?) Omniscient Council of Vagueness.

[pengbuzz]

17 hours ago, charles88 said:

Well Cromwell want to uplift ban of all Protoculture Tech research and usage, it stated in movie and Devil series that can time travel are still technically Protoculture tech. In which include possibly remain Devil series, Protoculture ruin that can mind control or Bird Human. Remember in Macross Zero where those regulation did not exist where those Anti UN plan to use Protoculture WMD Bird Human to defeat UN? It end up bite in their ass and almost destroy humanity. You want that to happen more often once those ban are gone. Its like after huge mass shooting, governments  should further remove more restrictions on gun control. Or unless you fully support 2nd amendment and Gun should not restrict

 

Problem is some of those organization will brazely and openly  research use and replicate those dangerous Protoculture tech without blowback and retaliation as technically its legal to do it. It saying after mass shooting, we should have no age limit and background check which led more criminal and killer buy weapon without backlash. Except its million times more worse considering how powerful those Protoculture weapon

  Reveal hidden contents

And How do you know Lady did? Because so far there no evidence Lady M did it as in Mikumo Flashback show she only one in cloning pod and i did not any more cloning pod? Also Movie 2 already state Lady M was not behind the theft of Star Singer cell, its Eplison Foundation did it

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Baby Fetus already develop by the time Cromwell launch attack against entire NUNS, so Sidney obviously knew it  form baby, yet it still use it as weapon tool

Seems that you guys love to condemned Lady M and yet you guys silent in Eplison Foundation  and some of you somehow think Eplison Foundation are more 'good guy' or more support than Lady M  while in lore and movie,  Eplison Foundation commit miles worse criminal and activities such as

1. Backing and sponsors 3 main villain of Macross series like Macross Galaxy conspirator, Roid and now Heimdall organization for their selfish gain

2. Stealing Star Singer cell, not Lady M 

3. Creating very hideous and unethical Siren system.

4. Will assainate anyone who cross them

While Lady M did commit obvious 1 crime , Eplison Foundation in the other hand done a lot worse.

Comments reported for political content, violation of board rules.

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm not going to dignify your political strawman with a response, but if you keep trying to inject politics into this I will report your posts and have you removed.

Already done.

As to the topic at hand:

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In Macross Zero, the Anti-Unification Alliance forces are the remnants of an anti-government militia whose armed opposition to the Earth Unification Government and UN Forces had frequently crossed the line into large-scale terrorist activities.  Just two years previously they had destroyed the city of St. Petersburg in Russia with a thermonuclear weapon.  In the OVA they deployed a thermobaric bomb on Mayan island.  They are NOT people who would have followed a government ban on researching certain technologies or types of artifacts.

Agreed.

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The fundamental fact that you keep missing here is that a government ban on a type of research or a particular technology doesn't magically remove that from existence or place it out of reach for everyone.  Blanket bans only work on the pathologically law-abiding.  That research will inevitably still happen and those technologies will still be used because there will still be people for whom the benefits outweigh the risks, who believe they're above the law, and/or who refuse to acknowledge the ban because they find it unjust.  Cromwell and Lady M are perfect examples of that.  Lady M violated the ban on cloning because she believed she was above the law and that her cause was more important than adherance to it.  Cromwell likewise violated the ban on AI research because he views the ban itself as unjust and argues that the technology has highly beneficial legitimate uses.

Rules tend to bind only those willing to adhere to them, which is why penalties are needed under the law for those who won't follow it. I think in Lady M's case, she apparently thinks she is the law, while Cromwell's opinion is that they can stuff the law.

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

A blanket ban achieves little besides depriving the government of the ability to properly regulate that research or technology's application and preventing any beneficial applications of that research/technology from being used for the common good.  Of course, because the movie's whole plot makes no sense in context it's worth noting that past works have already effectively established that Cromwell and Heimdall's viewpoint is objectively correct.

AKA "Throwing out the baby with the bathwater".

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

From a basic engineering standpoint, it is preposterously unlikely that Mikumo was the only clone constructed.

It took Lady M YEARS to recreate a viable Star Singer from the genetic material her agents unlawfully removed from Windermere IV.  There were doubtless many tests conducted to create a viable clone as they reconstructed the degraded DNA of the Star Singer.  There are probably quite a lot of terminated prototypes that were created before Mikumo.

It's also rather implausible that there wouldn't be a backup or two, considering Mikumo Guynemer was created to be a frontline soldier.  A fundamentally quite dangerous role which lends itself to violent and messy death, especially for an unarmed, unarmored person on a battlefield dominated by things like uncontrollable rioters and soldiers driven mad by Var syndrome.  

And I assume the reconstruction of that DNA would be "hit and miss", given that they would have to do trial and error to find what wasn't working?

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

No, nobody here is saying that the Epsilon Foundation are "good guys".  They're pretty clearly and consistently amoral, but the only thing you're accusing them of that was actually a crime is Sydney Hunt's theft of a Star Singer relic.  The rest is distortions of the facts or blaming them for the actions of their clients.  Macross Galaxy's corporate government was a questionable undertaking in hindsight but it was a recognized New UN Government member state.  There is nothing inherently wrong with doing business with them, especially since said business would've had to occur BEFORE their ulterior motives became known.  Similarly, there was nothing inherently wrong with selling weapons to Windermere IV because the Kingdom of the Wind is a recognized government and former New UN Gov't member that the NUNG still openly trades with.  Their involvement with Heimdall is more questionable in strictly legal terms, but as Heimdall's goal was to overthrow a despotic oligarch who secretly controlled the government their decision to assist him isn't exactly card-carrying villain stuff either.

Even the Epsilon Foundation is not significantly worse than Xaos, who violate the laws of war and collude in illegal cloning and slave-trafficking.

So in essence then, the "moral high ground: is going to be a bit ambiguous, given the players, right?

[Bolt]

Lady M was created to produce a lot of buzz and hype for the Delta series.  I'm honestly not sure how well that's worked with the domestic target audience. Either way, it's been done. The rock and a hard place (story wise) is to double down and keep drip feeding clues ( or an outright reveal) , or to run in the other direction. And , at this point, we won't know for another 10 years. 

Meanwhile Frontier will continue..

[Dangard Ace]

And now I'm in to watch this thread.  

 

As has been shared NO POLITICS on this forum.

[pengbuzz]

27 minutes ago, Dangard Ace said:

And now I'm in to watch this thread.  

 

As has been shared NO POLITICS on this forum.

Thank you; I'm sorry that you had to come in.

  

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 could maybe salvage the whole mess if they avoided the Delta movies entirely and built on the TV series version of "Lady M" who was just an enigmatic CEO of unknown and dubious origin who existed mainly as a one-woman(?) Omniscient Council of Vagueness.

I think the next Macross series should be a new one that revolves around the "Lady M" dilemma and ultimately resolves it. Leave Delta out of this (it's something of a joke in my mind now), and have a new cast of characters deal with the fallout of her machinations.

Edited October 14, 2022 by pengbuzz

[charles88]

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

  Macross Galaxy's corporate government was a questionable undertaking in hindsight but it was a recognized New UN Government member state.  There is nothing inherently wrong with doing business with them, especially since said business would've had to occur BEFORE their ulterior motives became known.

While it isn't obvious in the TV version Macross Galaxy is pretty much treated as a rogue state due to its espionage activities, Black Ops on NUN planets, horrendous human rights record  as most ofcitizen there are living in very poor envoriment and huge class differences.   The Mandated Cybernetics bill which was originally not passed in Macross Galaxy's Senate got passed after political violence against the opposition such as Sheryl's parents who were assassinated. Macross Galaxy also had links to Lactence via Manfred Brando who provided Lactence with the Fold Quartz based Sound Jamming System. Manfred died fighting Aegis in VF-X2 but he left a digital copy of his consciousness who was among the talking heads of the Macross Galaxy conspiracy. Manfred Brando when he was still alive sponsored the 117th Research Fleet and was the one who brought in Grace into the conspiracy. So this shows that Macross Galaxy already have very bad reputation and more or less a rogue fleet nation even before Vajra war and Frontier movie shows that Frontier fleet military and goverment already have huge distrust toward Macross Galaxy fleet. And yet Eplison Foundation Still baked them .That makes Elison Foundation suspicious as hell.

 

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

. They're pretty clearly and consistently amoral, but the only thing you're accusing them of that was actually a crime is Sydney Hunt's theft of a Star Singer relic.

Spoiler

Which is under order from his boss from Eplison Foundation as to where you think Syndey got his equipment to develop Siren system. Also when Cromwell starting to lose, Syndey got contact from his boss that he should peace out with 'Singer of Darkness' which likely baby before he got himself 'killed' which most likely just vessel as his body are fully machine. Eplison also must likely have private assassin organiation as they already killed Wright, a special NUNS agent whom try to take back Star Singer cell and Syndey did mention anyone who crosses Eplison will die

 

17 hours ago, Master Dex said:

That's all we're saying. She's not a good person just because she's in charge of the heroes. We don't actually know why she has such a stranglehold on the NUNG. We just kinda assume she means well but it's certainly not a popular idea to the masses. People don't like oligarchs secretly controlling them without explanation. 

Spoiler

Lore stated Lady M is less the one secretly in control of the galaxy but is a Think Tank stuck in a Fold Fault. Time is relatively different there that perhaps it is receiving and sending data that breaks causality. Also Lady M only appear after Vajra Wars. Which means Lady M have nothing to do with anything big happening which include Anti AI regulation.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Rules tend to bind only those willing to adhere to them, which is why penalties are needed under the law for those who won't follow it. I think in Lady M's case, she apparently thinks she is the law, while Cromwell's opinion is that they can stuff the law.

Spoiler

All in all, Cromwell's position as espoused in Absolute Live!!!!!! is not a general disregard for the rule of law... but rather a view that the government's bans on various kinds of technology and research arbitrary, capricious, and unjust as a result of having been imposed by an oligarch's corrupt manipulation of the New UN Government rather than by the actual will of the people.

Of course, as noted previously... in context with previous works he kind of came pre-vindicated but the movie's writers missed that little detail.

Because Lady M is a silent character, we don't know if she's necessarily believing she's above the law... but that's definitely the message her actions send.  "Rules for thee, but not for me."

 

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

AKA "Throwing out the baby with the bathwater".

Yup.  Unfortunately the real world parallels there (esp. in the field of medicine) are very heavily politicized and not at all suitable to discuss here.

 

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

And I assume the reconstruction of that DNA would be "hit and miss", given that they would have to do trial and error to find what wasn't working?

Because DNA is, of course, an organic molecule that breaks down like any other when cellular processes stop any recovered Star Singer DNA would have been fragmentary.  DNA's half-life, as best modern science can estimate it, is 521 years without the intervention of preservation techniques or fossiliation for longer-term relics.  The oldest recovered DNA in fossils is fragments of mammoth DNA retrieved from teeth that had been preserved in permafrost for 1.6 million years.  (My understanding is that teeth are especally good at DNA preservation long-term, and are commonly used when attempting to sequence DNA from extinct species like premodern Humans, Neanderthals, etc.

With relics potentially 500,000 years old, the illegal underground genetics lab Lady M used probably had its work cut out for it recreating a complete genome for a Star Singer from fragmentary DNA.  It's likely they had to do a bit of Jurassic Park-ing to fill in gaps with Human or Zentradi DNA.

 

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

So in essence then, the "moral high ground: is going to be a bit ambiguous, given the players, right?

Very.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, charles88 said:

While it isn't obvious in the TV version Macross Galaxy is pretty much treated as a rogue state due to [...]

While your summation of Macross Galaxy's unlawful activities is broadly accurate, your conclusion is not.

Granted, Macross Galaxy was a rogue state... but nobody actually knew that until they began moving openly against the Macross Frontier fleet.  The only thing you listed that was actually public knowledge beforehand was that the living conditions of the working class in the heavily industrialized Macross Galaxy fleet were not good and that implants were often used for augmented reality to improve overall comfort.  In the TV series, nobody had any suspicions about Macross Galaxy until right before the end of the series when the coup happened and the SMS crew discovered Grace's implant network plan.  In the movies, suspicions about Macross Galaxy were driven by their rivalry with Macross Frontier in light of both fleets being after the same valuable resource (fold quartz) not by any knowledge of Galaxy's clandestine misdeeds.  It wasn't until right before the end that Frontier's government finally understood the Galaxy fleet's intent and moved to stop it.

In terms of what was actually public knowledge, there wasn't anything that would have put the Epsilon Foundation off of doing business with the Macross Galaxy fleet prior to the climax of the Macross Frontier story.

You're confusing what you - the viewer - know with what the populace in the story knows.

 

Spoiler

1 hour ago, charles88 said:

Which is under order from his boss from Eplison Foundation as to where you think Syndey got his equipment to develop Siren system.

Spoiler

That's debatable at best, as Sydney is noted to have been an intelligence officer who used the stolen Star Singer material to become an Epsilon Foundation executive.

 

Spoiler

1 hour ago, charles88 said:

Also when Cromwell starting to lose, Syndey got contact from his boss that he should peace out with 'Singer of Darkness' which likely baby before he got himself 'killed' which most likely just vessel as his body are fully machine.

Spoiler

Maybe, maybe not.  If Sydney Hunt were operating his body remotely from somewhere else, he would/should have collapsed when Delta Flight jammed all fold waves in the vicinity because that would have cut off his remote control.  He did not, so it seems very likely that that was his actual body and he's simply heavily cyborged like Brera Stern or Ivan Tsari.

 

Spoiler

1 hour ago, charles88 said:

Eplison also must likely have private assassin organiation as they already killed Wright, a special NUNS agent whom try to take back Star Singer cell and Syndey did mention anyone who crosses Eplison will die

... that is a WILD guess on your part, with no supporting evidence.

 

Spoiler

1 hour ago, charles88 said:

Lore stated Lady M is less the one secretly in control of the galaxy but is a Think Tank stuck in a Fold Fault.

Spoiler

No, the movie pretty explicitly indicates Lady M is an oligarch who has been controlling the New UN Government and New UN Forces from the shadows for a while.

 

[kalvasflam]

Lady M is probably Milia secretly taking on a new persona to boss around Max.

All the rest of it is a big smokescreen to make people think she is someone else.  🤣

[Master Dex]

I want to revisit the idea it's Dr. Gadget M. Chiba dressing in drag. Think it was Seto's idea, but imagine..

Spoiler

He finds a way into the fold fault.. but instead of freeing Megaroad-1 he just goes to live there to be closer to Minmay,

 

[davidwhangchoi]

So Lady M is a ship? 

[pengbuzz]

Spoiler

You folks never know... it could be Claudia!

 

[Bolt]

6 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

So Lady M is a ship? 

That's my guess. At this point. And it's holding its crew captive..

Logical arguments aside. Just look how the writing has been..

[pengbuzz]

16 minutes ago, Bolt said:

That's my guess. At this point. And it's holding its crew captive..

Logical arguments aside. Just look how the writing has been..

Yeah, but it would make no sense for a ship (which would be AI) to insist on no AI's in UN Spacy.

Talk about suicidal!

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, Master Dex said:

I want to revisit the idea it's Dr. Gadget M. Chiba dressing in drag. Think it was Seto's idea, but imagine..

  Hide contents

He finds a way into the fold fault.. but instead of freeing Megaroad-1 he just goes to live there to be closer to Minmay,

... he's "Lady" M because he kicked off a Rocky Horror Picture Show revival there.

He'll show up to the final battle of the next series in drag and perform an uptempo Jpop remix of Sweet Transvestite.

 

6 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

So Lady M is a ship? 

Brings a whole new meaning to "shipping" doesn't it?  

[Bolt]

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Yeah, but it would make no sense for a ship (which would be AI) to insist on no AI's in UN Spacy.

Talk about suicidal!

You're assuming an AI would want other AI's  around. Or that it would care about equal rights for other AO's.  And ,consider how much power "Lady M" has, she may be untouchable, figuratively and literally. Either way, I'm expecting a bait and switch, once it's revealed.  

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

You're assuming an AI would want other AI's  around. Or that it would care about equal rights for other AO's.  And ,consider how much power "Lady M" has, she may be untouchable, figuratively and literally. Either way, I'm expecting a bait and switch, once it's revealed.  

But the problem is that being an AI, the law would apply to itself.

[Bolt]

26 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

But the problem is that being an AI, the law would apply to itself.

How many "laws"  have Lady M adhered too? 
For the record,  I don't even like this theory. If someone handed me the reins and said "fix this mess" , I certainly wouldn't go that route. But I'm of the mind that Lady M isn't going to be the obvious or best choice. And that it will be something (someone) very unexpected. 
And at this point, I would prefer to forget lady M, Macross story wise, and leave the "M"egaroad-01 in its fold fault. 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

You're assuming an AI would want other AI's  around. Or that it would care about equal rights for other AO's.  And ,consider how much power "Lady M" has, she may be untouchable, figuratively and literally. Either way, I'm expecting a bait and switch, once it's revealed.  

One would assume that an AI bent on ruling humanity from the shadows would want or need a lot of the things Lady M banned in order to govern effectively.

Not just other (subordinate) AIs that it could delegate tasks to in overseeing humanity, but a plethora of robotic weapons both covert and overt that could be relied upon to be there for the AI to seize control of should its meaty subjects rebel.  Not to mention a cyborged populace with networked brains who could be easily subjected to mind control to keep them from revolting and be used as infiltrators and sleeper agents.

Spoiler

Like the Variable Glaug, Ghost X-9, or that Terminator-esque robotic weapon Cromwell uses against Max and Arad in the movie.  

Cyborgs like Macross Galaxy's combat-hardened "cyber grunts", Project Stella, or Project Meridian, would make ideal agents.

Yet all of that is (allegedly) banned under Lady M's regime... (though past works definitely disagree)

It's way harder to do something like Control from the Star Trek novelverse, which basically just gaslighted the brilliant but naive into working for its fictitious off-again on-again black ops organization.

 

19 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

But the problem is that being an AI, the law would apply to itself.

Certainly the same people allegedly dogmatically enforcing Lady M's diktats on technology to the point of allowing entire planets to burn and millions of people to die rather than use "banned" weapons in their defense would not flex so readily if it turned out the one dispensing those edicts was also a piece of banned technology.

 

Personally, I suspect Absolute Live!!!!!! is gonna end up swept under the rug and "Lady M" will be quietly forgotten about in whatever the next series is.  They wrote themselves into a corner and have no easy way out.  Better to just roll with the TV series where "Lady M" didn't have a defined origin.

[kajnrig]

Did Lady M play a role in the goings-on of Frontier? I don't remember her name being uttered in the show or the movies, but some of the comments here suggest she did...? The closest that might be inferred was Richard Birla/Belra holding onto the photo of Minmay. Did Delta retroactively imply her influence on the Vajra events?

[Bolt]

22 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Did Lady M play a role in the goings-on of Frontier?

I feel like that was inferred during Delta. So as to connect the two stories. Though I doubt she was ever mentioned in Frontier , if memory serves.

 

22 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Did Delta retroactively imply her influence on the Vajra events?

By her, do you mean Minmei? Or lady Mega reboot? 

Galaxy's actions may also have had something to do with their knowledge Thereof..
 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Bolt

[davidwhangchoi]

https://macross.fandom.com/wiki/Lady_M#:~:text=Lady M (%2C Lady M),is the head of Chaos.

wiki page of Lady M

[Master Dex]

Lady M didn't exist in Frontier. Entirely a creation of Delta. I don't think they implied she was actually retroactively involved in anything and if they did it's ignorable cause it really wasn't a thing during Frontier at all yet. 

[charles88]

4 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Lady M didn't exist in Frontier. Entirely a creation of Delta. I don't think they implied she was actually retroactively involved in anything and if they did it's ignorable cause it really wasn't a thing during Frontier at all yet. 

In lore wise Lady M only appear after Vajra war which means it after Macross Frontier timeline and most likely after Macross 30.

Edited October 16, 2022 by charles88

[kajnrig]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

I feel like that was inferred during Delta. So as to connect the two stories. Though I doubt she was ever mentioned in Frontier , if memory serves.

9 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Lady M didn't exist in Frontier. Entirely a creation of Delta. I don't think they implied she was actually retroactively involved in anything and if they did it's ignorable cause it really wasn't a thing during Frontier at all yet. 

Okay, I was starting to worry that I misremembered parts of Frontier. As for "ignorable," that's my go-to strategy for most things Delta.

44 minutes ago, davidwhangchoi said:

https://macross.fandom.com/wiki/Lady_M#:~:text=Lady M (%2C Lady M),is the head of Chaos.

wiki page of Lady M

That's right, I forgot she was supposedly head of Xaos. For being fairly unreliable on most things Macross, that fan wiki is pretty accurate about Delta lore. I suppose that's just owing to it being naturally easier to document modern events than shows/games/etc. from the previous 40 years.

Edited October 16, 2022 by kajnrig

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, kajnrig said:

Did Lady M play a role in the goings-on of Frontier? I don't remember her name being uttered in the show or the movies, but some of the comments here suggest she did...? The closest that might be inferred was Richard Birla/Belra holding onto the photo of Minmay. Did Delta retroactively imply her influence on the Vajra events?

That's a very definite "Maybe".  It's complicated.

"Lady M" was an invention of Macross Delta's writers and had never been mentioned in any previous Macross works.  Throughout Macross Delta, "Lady M" remains a vague existence whose circumstances are only ever discussed in terms of rumors and hearsay and she only ever seems to communicate with the cast indirectly by having others relay her messages to them.

The Macross Delta TV anime and its movie adaptation Passionate Walkure seemed to be building "Lady M" up as Xaos's version of Richard Bilra.  That is to say, as the ultra-wealthy, highly influential, and terribly eccentric borderline recluse who founded the original company that grew into the mega-conglomerate Xaos we see in the series proper.  The rumors we hear from the Epsilon Foundation representative Berger Stone also suggest "Lady M" was throwing her vast personal fortune around for the sake of private research projects.  "Lady M" had supposedly been researching the power and military potential of songs since the end of the First Space War.  One such set of rumors that turned out to be true or at least so close to it as to make no odds was that "Lady M" had used the fruits of her research and either cloning/genetic manipulation or artificial intelligence to develop an ultimate weapon based on the power of songs... revealed to be Mikumo Guynemer, a clone based on reconstructed Star Singer DNA.  The rumors are contradictory about when "Lady M" first became involved in galactic affairs.  One of the rumors conveyed suggests she's been active since the First Space War and may have contributed to the work of Dr. Chiba and others.  The other suggests she only recently became active, after the Vajra conflict in 2059.

Spoiler

It is interesting to note that Berger Stone's description of an ultimate song weapon based on artificial intelligence technology fits the definition of the Siren Delta System.

The implications there are rather interesting in their own right.  How did Berger Stone make such an eerily accurate statement?  It suggests the existence of a link between the Epsilon Foundation and "Lady M".  Was the genetics lab that reconstructed the Star Singer DNA and created Mikumo Guynemer from it an Epsilon Foundation subsidiary?  Did someone leak the Star Singer research "Lady M" conducted to the Epsilon Foundation, or was "Lady M" involved in the development of the Siren Delta System as an alternative in case cloning a Star Singer didn't work?  

Spoiler

Is Cromwell's use of the Siren Delta System against "Lady M" a symbolic gesture?  By destroying "Lady M" with one of her own illegal creations, is he in essence saying her corrupt actions are to be the cause of her downfall?

 

It wasn't until Absolute Live!!!!!! that "Lady M" was changed from an enigmatic weirdo and (theoretically) one-woman Omniscient Council of Vagueness into some kind of Deep State figure... an oligarch who corruptly controls the New UN Government, New UN Forces, and PMCs somehow and acts as the sole arbiter of what knowledge humanity is "ready" for.  It's that hot take that retroactively inserts "Lady M" into decisions from the previous 50+ years like the New UN Government's ban on cloning, the restrictions imposed on AI technology after the Sharon Apple incident, the implant ban, and the strict controls imposed on MDE weapons.

Unfortunately, it really doesn't tally with previous material at all... so it doesn't fit at all if you've seen more of Macross than just Delta.

 

3 minutes ago, davidwhangchoi said:

https://macross.fandom.com/wiki/Lady_M#:~:text=Lady M (%2C Lady M),is the head of Chaos.

wiki page of Lady M

Most unusually for that Fandom Wiki, that article isn't wildly inaccurate or a pile of nonsensical fan-fiction.

Statistically, I guess it had to happen sometime.

[JB0]

22 hours ago, Master Dex said:

I want to revisit the idea it's Dr. Gadget M. Chiba dressing in drag. Think it was Seto's idea, but imagine..

  Hide contents

He finds a way into the fold fault.. but instead of freeing Megaroad-1 he just goes to live there to be closer to Minmay,

 

That was me, actually. I like your follow-through, though.

[DewPoint]

Ultimately, it shouldn't really matter since every Macross show it treated like its own TV show or Movie retelling of actual real Macross world events. So "Lady M" could just really be the NUNS higher ups or the Captain of Macross 13.

 

But it's always fun to speculate.

[charles88]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

  Hide contents

It is interesting to note that Berger Stone's description of an ultimate song weapon based on artificial intelligence technology fits the definition of the Siren Delta System.

The implications there are rather interesting in their own right.  How did Berger Stone make such an eerily accurate statement?  It suggests the existence of a link between the Epsilon Foundation and "Lady M".  Was the genetics lab that reconstructed the Star Singer DNA and created Mikumo Guynemer from it an Epsilon Foundation subsidiary?  Did someone leak the Star Singer research "Lady M" conducted to the Epsilon Foundation, or was "Lady M" involved in the development of the Siren Delta System as an alternative in case cloning a Star Singer didn't work?  

  Reveal hidden contents

Spoiler

Err where do get the idea that Lady M the one created Siren System? its all on Eplison Foundation only as they the one steal Star Singer.

 

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It wasn't until Absolute Live!!!!!! that "Lady M" was changed from an enigmatic weirdo and (theoretically) one-woman Omniscient Council of Vagueness into some kind of Deep State figure... an oligarch who corruptly controls the New UN Government, New UN Forces, and PMCs somehow and acts as the sole arbiter of what knowledge humanity is "ready" for.  It's that hot take that retroactively inserts "Lady M" into decisions from the previous 50+ years like the New UN Government's ban on cloning, the restrictions imposed on AI technology after the Sharon Apple incident, the implant ban, and the strict controls imposed on MDE weapons.

Unfortunately, it really doesn't tally with previous material at all... so it doesn't fit at all if you've seen more of Macross than just Delta.

 

Spoiler

That one its only Cromwell and his Heimdall trevenge driven conspiracy theory mindset as there no proof that Lady M has been controlling NUNS right from the beginning of its founding of UN spacy/NUNS. In fact many of regulation and ban that Cromwell want to lifted and dergulate happen that nothing to do with Lady M at all and cause by evil. mad and arrogant people like

1. Ai srtirct regulation cause by Sharon Apple incident where one of the mad creator decied to put illegal AI chip into Sharon Apple to create so-called fully sentient AI cause her to run amok and hypnotize civilians in Macross city and   there was no shackle system or some sort of master override implaced  to stop her as Myung shot her AI container, did not stop Sharon Apple.

2.  Cybernatic and implant strict regulation happen because of whole Macross Galaxy conspiracy happen like enslaving all humanity and other sentient species Vajra. Also revelation on how Macross Galaxy using cybernatic and implant to mind control civilian as living condition there is extremely poor as lore states normal civilian everyday food are nothing more than food waste and trash from the elite and those conspirator use implant to trick civilian mind think those food waste are real tasty food. And of couse convert some civilan into puppet cyborg soldier.

3. Impose on MDE restriction are caused by Galaxy incident as well as those MDE are very powerful WMD. It also causes damage in space like in Windemere in tv series as it creates more fold fault.  My theory was that NUNS says no to Cromwell's request on using MDE because of most likely the area where Cromwell fought invaders was huge trade route. But just my theory. I fear that Cromwell also wants to uplift restrictions on MDE. 

Official lore also stated Lady M contacted NUNS only after Vajra war, so any regulation law implemented by NUNS that Cromwell was against, happened before Vajra war which means those regulation are nothing to do with Lady M. That's just Heimdall's revenge-driven conspiracy theorist mindset. After all revenge, driven people tend to be illogical and irrational and tend to be dumber.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by charles88

[Seto Kaiba]

45 minutes ago, charles88 said:

Err where do get the idea that Lady M the one crated Siren System?

Try actually reading the post you're quoting... it's literally right there.

 

Spoiler

45 minutes ago, charles88 said:

That one its only Cromwell and his Heimdall trevenge driven conspiracy theory mindset as there no proof that Lady M has been controlling

*sigh*  The problem with this latest argument of yours is that the movie does not at any point present those accusations as unfounded.

Spoiler

Even though there are two separate scenes where the Xaos crew discuss Cromwell and his goals after his broadcast about Heimdall's mission in the Brisingr cluster, nobody on the Xaos side dismisses Cromwell as irrational, delusional, or paranoid at any point.  

AT NO POINT in the film does anyone even attempt to refute the idea that "Lady M" has been manipulating the New UN Government, New UN Forces, and PMCs.  

They discuss his motivations and some of his positions, but they never actually present him as even being unreasonable... never mind irrational.

Cromwell would have to have some pretty solid evidence and a very compelling argument to do the things he did.  He was able to convince a significant portion of the New UN Forces to side with him and obtain the financial and materiel support to sustain his organization, remodel the Battle Astraea, purchase dozens if not hundreds of cutting edge 5th Gen unmanned Valkyries loaded for bear with fold quartz enhancements, and buy all manner of other robotic weapons like conventional Ghosts and robot soldiers.  That isn't a cheap undertaking.  If he were a crazy person chasing a paranoid delusion, he would not have been able to get the billions upon billions of dollars of money he needed to do all of that.

I've already pointed out the many areas where the movie's uncontested claims about Lady M do not align with... well... anything.  You're basically quoting me TO me at this point.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[Keith]

Just finally watched Absolute Live (after fighting to get a copy in the first place, yeesh!) And!

Quite expectedly I cried constantly, such is my current modus operandi, right from The Labyrinth Of Time straight through the end of Absolute Live!, many tears were shed. Are we still spoilerting? If so...

Max

Spoiler

I really liked Max's arc here. While yes, he massively overshadows the already truncated presence of Mirage in the movie telling of Delta, I honestly believe we get is "old man Max" brought in to initially fill in the loss of Ernest Johnson by bringing Exedor with him (and damn, did I cheer at Exedor's appearance), but that evolves into a fascinating sidestory of the genius Jenius as a man who's seen far more insane events in human history than anyone should. He's jaded with his skill walking in, sees his grandaughter whom he believes inheritted none of it, knocks Hayate & Bogue around a bit to boost up the recognized resident aces, then finds out that even though he hasn't missed a step, he did miss what was obvious to Arad, Mirage's genius ie seeing genius in others.

The Siren Systsm & whatshisname behind them:

Spoiler

I liked this whole plot in a culminaton of what was teased with Sharon in Plus. That wholw Macrose subplot to me seems to be something tied in with the original conflict between the two Protoculture factions. DYRL at least presented the two sides as Bioweapon Vs Bio-technoweapon. The Aphos in Zero seems (to me) to be an absolute weapon of the bio-side, while the Singer of the Stars + ruins + high performance rune-networking abilities of Windemere/PC ruins amplifier left to seemingly lonk up all life into a super matrix mimicing the Vajra seems (again to me) to reflect the philosophy of the other side of the conflict. 

Do we know if the organization behind glasses guy (whom we now know funded Roid & Heimdel) is also behind Grace & perhaps the intial creation of Sharon Apple to start with?

Spoiler

It just hits me that the propegation of a galaxy wide matrix being initiated by 3 seperate parties is a bit too coincidental. If there were any Protoculture alive lurking in the shadows of tje galaxy, I really think ir's these guys trying hard to push things from those shadows.

Lady M.

Spoiler

While it could be just a weird mcguffin, Exedor talking about how they don't know what kind of intelligence Lady M actually is, and just that it transmits at the frequencies of the Megaroad fleet, but with codes that unlocked secrets of PC ruins & The Singer of the Stars. Unless the Megaroad fleet found themselves trapped in a fold fault with the rosetta stone of PC ruins, there's really no reason anyone there (such as Misa, Minmay or Miku) should have that knowledge in isolation. So, I proppose that Lady M. Is actually....Sara & the Aphos fullfilling their function, including but not limited to drawing the Megaroad fleet into the aforementioned fold fault (as a maybe a last bastion of life if all else fails).

Yes, I am still trying to find meaning in the end of Zero...

That baby..

Spoiler

Not only being a representation of The Star Singer but having a rune to boot, could potentially be the most powerful being in the universe.

What I didn't like:

Spoiler

Why didn't Basara appear to replace Freiya & take her place boosting Walküre to victory! Damnit Basara, you could have saved Freiya's life!

And finally, the real winner in the story:

Spoiler

Arad, he got Max's hat & respect. No one won harder than Arad in this movie.

Epilogue:

Spoiler

I really want "The Labyrinth of Time" to lead somewhere. I mean really, what the hell does the Vajra Queen need with Alto? Is she feeding him? Is she cleaning him? Is her fasconation with him due to an imprint on the Vajra network from Ranka? Hell, was the Vajra queen overwritten by the little queen?

I cried so hard at Ranka calling out for S021-5 & F09.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Keith

[davidwhangchoi]

According to the wiki, if the Mega Road theory holds, I would think it would be so dumb Lady-M can clone/ have protoculture codes, be the head of Chaos but can't get itself out of a fold fault while some enemy can just summon it at will to destroy it.

[charles88]

49 minutes ago, Keith said:

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I really liked Max's arc here. While yes, he massively overshadows the already truncated presence of Mirage in the movie telling of Delta, I honestly believe we get is "old man Max" brought in to initially fill in the loss of Ernest Johnson by bringing Exedor with him (and damn, did I cheer at Exedor's appearance), but that evolves into a fascinating sidestory of the genius Jenius as a man who's seen far more insane events in human history than anyone should. He's jaded with his skill walking in, sees his grandaughter whom he believes inheritted none of it, knocks Hayate & Bogue around a bit to boost up the recognized resident aces, then finds out that even though he hasn't missed a step, he did miss what was obvious to Arad, Mirage's genius ie seeing genius in others.

Spoiler

Also seem Max also cant fiight too long as after he stomp Delta squadron, he already have minor cardiac arress which means he already have heart condition.

 

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, charles88 said:

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Also seem Max also cant fiight too long as after he stomp Delta squadron, he already have minor cardiac arress which means he already have heart condition.

 

At Max's age, you would too. Seriously.

[Bolt]

10 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

According to the wiki, if the Mega Road theory holds, I would think it would be so dumb Lady-M can clone/ have protoculture codes, be the head of Chaos but can't get itself out of a fold fault while some enemy can just summon it at will to destroy it.

It's a head scratcher, for sure.