Macross Delta Zettai Live!!!!!! - Available on Blu-ray Sept 28, 2022

[kajnrig]

47 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

The 10 mins of the new Frontier short has more feels and more impactful music than all of Zettai.

Just imagine if it'd been reversed----10 mins of Delta, a full new movie for Frontier...

If nothing else, they could have copied the 10-minute short's modus operandi and told a story that's in any way fundamentally different from last time. I swear, for being a completely new story it's exactly the same story - musical show plus aerobatics show, attack by mysterious enemy, routed, general regrouping, the finale where the main hero flies their jet fighter from the concert stage to the enemy capital ship with their girlfriend astral projecting alongside them.

So much potential for good storytelling here, and so much of it wasted...

 

[charles88]

Frontier Movie 2 done the same

[charles88]

8 hours ago, kajnrig said:

I managed to source a viewing, and I made it roughly halfway through before calling it quits. I might finish it, but boy, do I just not care. At all. I am so ready to move on from Delta, or at least whichever creative voices are responsible for Delta.

I had really hoped that this movie would learn from the ample criticism leveled at the show and first movie and discard all excess baggage to hone in on executing the fundamentals. But the first hour of it is just more of the same. There's like twelve movies/shows/OVAs' worth of workable ideas stuffed into this, and it focuses on absolutely none of them. I can't even get excited at the introduction of nostalgia trap Max Jenius when it's just one more of a mass of hastily-introduced plot developments.

The only positive of the film is the Yami Q-Ray music, and that's not nearly good enough to save the film.

I bet you never bother to see the ending and assume that they live happily ever after

[kajnrig]

20 hours ago, charles88 said:

Frontier Movie 2 done the same

Frontier did it first is the thing, in this "revival era" of Macross. It was a great remix of the DYRL? formula, the music rocked, the characters were great. Everything was in sync with everything else.

Delta was a by the numbers copycat of Frontier, with not enough of its own attitude to stand on. And then the second movie doubled down on the formula for no reason whatsoever.

20 hours ago, charles88 said:

I bet you never bother to see the ending and assume that they live happily ever after

I never expect this type of comment here. It's good to know the franchise is continuing to draw in new blood, and not just us old-timers in perpetuity.

To your point, I did, in fact, end up seeing it to the end, and before that, I did, in fact, assume that it would have a bittersweet ending. That much was fairly obvious the moment it was established that her singing caused her to age. The ending doesn't at all change my opinion of the movie. I'd go so far as to say that the ending doesn't feel earned at all. Like I said, there's twelve other movies stuffed into this one, and none of them get to breathe enough that I actually care when they get to their respective conclusions.

I'll say, the subplot trying to retcon Kaname into having an unspoken love with Messer continues to irritate me to no end. That it simultaneously discards all setup between her and Arad is doubly irritating, and that it decides it suddenly wants him to be fleet commander material is triply so. The movie's idea of "good leadership" in general made me roll my eyes. Frantic micromanaging (and pointing! Lots and lots of useless pointing!) is apparently what NUNS is looking for.

Enemy Baby enjoying their singing was a neat idea (but again gets so lost amongst everything else etc. etc. etc.). Enemy Baby belting out perfectly-clear song lyrics at the age of what seemed like two was creepy as frakk.

[Seto Kaiba]

20 hours ago, charles88 said:

I bet you never bother to see the ending and assume that they live happily ever after

Get real, the writing in Absolute Live!!!!!! engages in such absurdly heavy-handed foreshadowing that it all but completely spoils its own ending within the first half hour.

They are "elderly police sergeant the day before retirement" levels of unsubtle about spoiling the ending.

 

37 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

To your point, I did, in fact, end up seeing it to the end, and before that, I did, in fact, assume that it would have a bittersweet ending. That much was fairly obvious the moment it was established that her singing caused her to age. The ending doesn't at all change my opinion of the movie. I'd go so far as to say that the ending doesn't feel earned at all. Like I said, there's twelve other movies stuffed into this one, and none of them get to breathe enough that I actually care when they get to their respective conclusions.

Made infinitely worse, IMO, by the way the movie goes to such extraordinary lengths to spoil its own ending.

Spoiler

It was like the writers were on a mission to spoil the ending mid-movie by using every single "this character is about to die" trope that they could find.  Multiple conversations specifically and solely to foreshadow how their relationship won't work, multiple conversations about how her singing is burning up her life force.  Multiple tragic keepsakes in play.  It's so absurdly over-the-top you'd almost expect someone to break the fourth wall about it.

 

37 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

I'll say, the subplot trying to retcon Kaname into having an unspoken love with Messer continues to irritate me to no end. That it simultaneously discards all setup between her and Arad is doubly irritating, and that it decides it suddenly wants him to be fleet commander material is triply so.

I'm bothered almost as much by how obsessed the writers are with depicting Kaname as a miserable failure.  

Her own coworkers apparently like her so little that they carry photographic evidence of her failed solo idol career at all times to remind her how much she sucked.  

Come to that, it's actually kind of worrying how many times this movie stops to remind one (or all) of the characters that they suck.  Sure, it's objectively true that Xaos, Walkure, and Delta Flight are all small-time operators at best but there are a few points where it feels like it crosses the line to actual ill-intent on the part of the speaker.

Spoiler

No wonder Mirage has a complex... her famous grandfather gives her not one but TWO short "The Reason You Suck" speeches in the course of the movie!

 

37 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

The movie's idea of "good leadership" in general made me roll my eyes. Frantic micromanaging (and pointing! Lots and lots of useless pointing!) is apparently what NUNS is looking for.

Which really just draws a line under how incompetent the staff of Xaos are.

Coordinating operations like that is a flight controller's job, not a platoon or flight leader's.  Not to mention their Valkyries all have dedicated software specifically for coordinating operations and assisting unit leaders with command and control.  There is literally no reason for Mirage (or anyone) to be barking overly-specific directions like that while sitting still making a perfectly vulnerable target of themselves.

[charles88]

3 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Frontier did it first is the thing, in this "revival era" of Macross. It was a great remix of the DYRL? formula, the music rocked, the characters were great. Everything was in sync with everything else.

Delta was a by the numbers copycat of Frontier, with not enough of its own attitude to stand on. And then the second movie doubled down on the formula for no reason whatsoever.

I never expect this type of comment here. It's good to know the franchise is continuing to draw in new blood, and not just us old-timers in perpetuity.

To your point, I did, in fact, end up seeing it to the end, and before that, I did, in fact, assume that it would have a bittersweet ending. That much was fairly obvious the moment it was established that her singing caused her to age. The ending doesn't at all change my opinion of the movie. I'd go so far as to say that the ending doesn't feel earned at all. Like I said, there's twelve other movies stuffed into this one, and none of them get to breathe enough that I actually care when they get to their respective conclusions.

I'll say, the subplot trying to retcon Kaname into having an unspoken love with Messer continues to irritate me to no end. That it simultaneously discards all setup between her and Arad is doubly irritating, and that it decides it suddenly wants him to be fleet commander material is triply so. The movie's idea of "good leadership" in general made me roll my eyes. Frantic micromanaging (and pointing! Lots and lots of useless pointing!) is apparently what NUNS is looking for.

Enemy Baby enjoying their singing was a neat idea (but again gets so lost amongst everything else etc. etc. etc.). Enemy Baby belting out perfectly-clear song lyrics at the age of what seemed like two was creepy as frakk.

For your information I'm also old timer as well as I'm been watching Macross for over 20 years.

 

Baby can sing because Eplison essentially implant her with advanced AI chip inside her head as they need organic being to produce fold wave song. That why Walkure have have to sing in battlefield in person as recorded song did not work on Vars

I'm got impression that some of old timer like you are very negative on Delta and think that japanese and new blood have sucky and poor taste as they praise Delta movie 2 and will nickpick and find any minor reason to hate Delta movie 2. Like those Old timer UC Gundam fan and Showa Ultra fan

And about spoil ending Macross Fontier movie 2 at least already spoil who villain and Sheryl at 1st movie and beginning of movie 2. Also Frontier Movie 2 follow basic storyframe from 2nd half of the Macross Frontier series while Delta Movie 2 are complete original as well

And what do you guys think of Sv-303? I bet its suck because it's Delta

Edited October 11, 2022 by charles88

[MKT]

I gave the movie a second watch, and this time I enjoyed it better. This was after I went through specific scenes from the Delta series and parts of the Walkure concerts, to recap some of the details and mood it sets. Probably my mistake watching it first time round was going in straight thinking I could still sufficiently recall details from the earlier shows, but could not and so quite a few story details went over my head then. 

But I still could not accept the insanely fast cut battle scenes involving the valks this time around, nor the framing of them. They are just horrible & Michael Bay-litis in the worst way. Mostly, it is just not enough time given to the shots in the beginning for the viewers to establish what they are looking at or where they are in the frame. A couple of many examples to choose from:

Spoiler

When Battle Astrea invaded Windemere, there was a scene when the SV-303 transformed to gerwalk and then to battroid. The valk is a dark colored valk, but the dark colored Battle Astrea in the background just makes it hard to see what is it doing. I thought it was the SV-262Ba at first.

When Max wrestled down Hayate on that piece of asteroid in the training scene, I literally could not catch how that happened even after replaying few times at normal speed, and no doubt compounded by both of them being blue colored.

When watching Delta series the first time around years ago, I remember thinking the valk battles were already too fast, and could barely follow the action on some of them. But rewatching them now, they feel like such a treat compared to this movie. So for this movie rewatch, I had to do a lot of pausing during the valk battles to fathom what they were actually doing. Based on this alone, watching it on home media is the best way to appreciate it because I bet lots of the valk battle details would be lost on the audience in the cinemas.

 

[Angesdad]

6 hours ago, MKT said:

When watching Delta series the first time around years ago, I remember thinking the valk battles were already too fast, and could barely follow the action on some of them. But rewatching them now, they feel like such a treat compared to this movie. So for this movie rewatch, I had to do a lot of pausing during the valk battles to fathom what they were actually doing. Based on this alone, watching it on home media is the best way to appreciate it because I bet lots of the valk battle details would be lost on the audience in the cinemas.

Oh boy did I hit the pause button so many times and slow it down by 0.25x speed to barely catch the valks in action.

Spoiler

Speaking of possible future AX releases from Bandai, will Arad's AX ever be released because of his short and limited appearance at the training stage in the film? You see him upside down and that's it. His "promotion" pretty much excluded him from the final battle, as the main participants were Bogue, Mirage, Chuck and Hayate.

I am grateful they released this film because the short film at the beginning really got my interest piqued in Macross Frontier. 

[Scream Man]

I liked it. First Delta movie is ok, but not really my thing. But I quite liked this one. i mean it was weird and Silly, but then so is this whole franchise, so I didnt care that much, it was what I wanted anyway.

[Master Dex]

8 hours ago, charles88 said:

For your information I'm also old timer as well as I'm been watching Macross for over 20 years.

 

Baby can sing because Eplison essentially implant her with advanced AI chip inside her head as they need organic being to produce fold wave song. That why Walkure have have to sing in battlefield in person as recorded song did not work on Vars

I'm got impression that some of old timer like you are very negative on Delta and think that japanese and new blood have sucky and poor taste as they praise Delta movie 2 and will nickpick and find any minor reason to hate Delta movie 2. Like those Old timer UC Gundam fan and Showa Ultra fan

And about spoil ending Macross Fontier movie 2 at least already spoil who villain and Sheryl at 1st movie and beginning of movie 2. Also Frontier Movie 2 follow basic storyframe from 2nd half of the Macross Frontier series while Delta Movie 2 are complete original as well

And what do you guys think of Sv-303? I bet its suck because it's Delta

No need to get upset because other people have different opinions on the movie. This is a discussion forum, and we are discussing.

Well I wasn't until now but I have bought and watched it. Admittedly my thoughts are closer to Seto and Kaj. I'm typically less harsh on Delta but that's cause I am a mellow guy. Doesn't mean I don't have criticisms, I'm a bit of a story writer myself (insert Osborne meme here) and Delta absolutely earns it's criticisms.

The Sv-303 is... Alright. I was surprised it was unmanned and there was multiples actually. I thought it was going to be some ace fighter. I actually haven't been as into the design since it was revealed. I'd comment on specs but we have no power there lol.

Visually the movie was gorgeous at least. The editing could have used work but everything looked really pretty when you had time to enjoy a shot. I actually really liked the imagery of Battle Astrea in attack mode perched next to the ground, showing off the impressive scale of the New Macross Class battle carriers. Try as he might to make the still as yet unnamed class the Elysian and Gigasian belong to look good, Max definitely traded down.

And yeah I'm a huge Max fanboy so I enjoyed him being here. Exsedol too honestly. Actually I just like he stuck with Max. They give hints they have a close friendship throughout Macross 7 and I kinda feel it here. Admittedly Max tends to lose friends in his life (Kakizaki died, Hikaru vanishes, I'm not convinced he and Milia are still married) but weirdly the giant database guy became one of his closest friends almost.

The plot... It's a Delta plot alright lol. It's not the worst but it does feel like it tried a bit too hard and just led to a lot of head scratching.

I was happy before watching anything that Seto have such a good review of Labyrinth of Time though cause that's the thing I was most concerned about since Frontier is very important to me and I 100% agree that did everything I could have hoped for in a 15 minute short. It also truly felt like Frontier, and I worried it would feel like Frontier by way of Delta writing style. I don't know if the writing teams were actually different but LoT felt like the people that did Frontier came back to do this. I was happy. 

[charles88]

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

No need to get upset because other people have different opinions on the movie. This is a discussion forum, and we are discussing.

Well I wasn't until now but I have bought and watched it. Admittedly my thoughts are closer to Seto and Kaj. I'm typically less harsh on Delta but that's cause I am a mellow guy. Doesn't mean I don't have criticisms, I'm a bit of a story writer myself (insert Osborne meme here) and Delta absolutely earns it's criticisms.

The Sv-303 is... Alright. I was surprised it was unmanned and there was multiples actually. I thought it was going to be some ace fighter. I actually haven't been as into the design since it was revealed. I'd comment on specs but we have no power there lol.

Visually the movie was gorgeous at least. The editing could have used work but everything looked really pretty when you had time to enjoy a shot. I actually really liked the imagery of Battle Astrea in attack mode perched next to the ground, showing off the impressive scale of the New Macross Class battle carriers. Try as he might to make the still as yet unnamed class the Elysian and Gigasian belong to look good, Max definitely traded down.

And yeah I'm a huge Max fanboy so I enjoyed him being here. Exsedol too honestly. Actually I just like he stuck with Max. They give hints they have a close friendship throughout Macross 7 and I kinda feel it here. Admittedly Max tends to lose friends in his life (Kakizaki died, Hikaru vanishes, I'm not convinced he and Milia are still married) but weirdly the giant database guy became one of his closest friends almost.

The plot... It's a Delta plot alright lol. It's not the worst but it does feel like it tried a bit too hard and just led to a lot of head scratching.

I was happy before watching anything that Seto have such a good review of Labyrinth of Time though cause that's the thing I was most concerned about since Frontier is very important to me and I 100% agree that did everything I could have hoped for in a 15 minute short. It also truly felt like Frontier, and I worried it would feel like Frontier by way of Delta writing style. I don't know if the writing teams were actually different but LoT felt like the people that did Frontier came back to do this. I was happy. 

Well Exesdol seems to be a family friend to Jenius family as Mirage knew him very well. I think Max syltill married with Milia as they reconcile at end of Macross 7

Well Max almost reunite with Hikaru when Cromwell open Super Fold Gate.

Also It's okay as seems that some of threader seems want to find any reason no matter how minor to hate Delta. In fact for some reason some of threader think that Lady M is main villain and somehow Eplison and Cromwell are more moral.than even Eplison. The SAME Eplison who sponsor Macross Galaxy conspirator, sponsor Roid and they the one steal Star Singer first. And use Baby fetus as main component for Siren system Weapon.

[kajnrig]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Made infinitely worse, IMO, by the way the movie goes to such extraordinary lengths to spoil its own ending.

  Hide contents

It was like the writers were on a mission to spoil the ending mid-movie by using every single "this character is about to die" trope that they could find.  Multiple conversations specifically and solely to foreshadow how their relationship won't work, multiple conversations about how her singing is burning up her life force.  Multiple tragic keepsakes in play.  It's so absurdly over-the-top you'd almost expect someone to break the fourth wall about it.

The amount of foreshadowing certainly doesn't help. But even with all that, there were ways for the movie to handle that plot thread with... not necessarily subtlety - soap operas don't exactly deal in subtlety - but certainly with more elegance than it did. Knowing the ending isn't necessarily an issue so long as the getting there is well executed. And boy was it not well executed.

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm bothered almost as much by how obsessed the writers are with depicting Kaname as a miserable failure.  

Her own coworkers apparently like her so little that they carry photographic evidence of her failed solo idol career at all times to remind her how much she sucked.  

Come to that, it's actually kind of worrying how many times this movie stops to remind one (or all) of the characters that they suck.  Sure, it's objectively true that Xaos, Walkure, and Delta Flight are all small-time operators at best but there are a few points where it feels like it crosses the line to actual ill-intent on the part of the speaker.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to notice that. Lots of Flanderization going on, which on the one hand, is a half-decent way to reduce the narrative workload. You simplify side characters down so you can focus on the characters, relationships, dramas, etc. that really matter. But on the other hand, if you simplify side characters down BUT THEN FOCUS ON THEM ANYWAY...

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

  Hide contents

No wonder Mirage has a complex... her famous grandfather gives her not one but TWO short "The Reason You Suck" speeches in the course of the movie!

I actually really kind of hate what transpires between her and her grandfather, because it shows not just that the writer fundamentally misunderstands her, but that he fundamentally misunderstands Max Jenius as well. It's double the character assassination per scene! What a steal!

10 hours ago, charles88 said:

For your information I'm also old timer as well as I'm been watching Macross for over 20 years.

Oh, my bad. The general tenor of the comment made me think you were on the younger side. (Which I mean, compared to most of the guys here, I'M on the younger side, so... )

10 hours ago, charles88 said:

Baby can sing because Eplison essentially implant her with advanced AI chip inside her head as they need organic being to produce fold wave song. That why Walkure have have to sing in battlefield in person as recorded song did not work on Vars

I know WHY baby can sing. Doesn't make it any less creepy or uncanny.

10 hours ago, charles88 said:

And what do you guys think of Sv-303? I bet its suck because it's Delta

Like others have said, the action was so quick and schizophrenic that I could barely tell who was doing what. The CGI profiles from magazine scans looked nice enough.

What it really needed was a good long lingering daylight shot. For the whole movie it's nothing but a dark neon-striped shape against dark backgrounds; is it any wonder you can't make it out, much less remember its shape?

8 hours ago, MKT said:

But I still could not accept the insanely fast cut battle scenes involving the valks this time around, nor the framing of them.

When watching Delta series the first time around years ago, I remember thinking the valk battles were already too fast, and could barely follow the action on some of them. But rewatching them now, they feel like such a treat compared to this movie.

54 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Visually the movie was gorgeous at least. The editing could have used work but everything looked really pretty when you had time to enjoy a shot.

This is one of those criticisms that I level against the Frontier movies as well. It started with them, and only got faster and faster/worse and worse with each Delta iteration.

I wonder how many of y'all did slow down the movie during those sections - and/or replayed them multiple times, etc. - to appreciate what was going on. Me, I just barreled through them at regular pace the way a theater audience would have had to, and... yeah. It's hard for these geriatric eyes of mine to keep up.

54 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

I actually really liked the imagery of Battle Astrea in attack mode perched next to the ground, showing off the impressive scale of the New Macross Class battle carriers. Try as he might to make the still as yet unnamed class the Elysian and Gigasian belong to look good, Max definitely traded down.

I will say, I enjoyed the Bird Human-esque look of the Astraea. I don't know if it was intentional--heck, I don't even remember it being consistent, just there being a couple shots that instantly registered to me as "Oh hey! A Macross Zero reference!"

54 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

And yeah I'm a huge Max fanboy so I enjoyed him being here. Exsedol too honestly. Actually I just like he stuck with Max. 

I was surprised at his inclusion, but then not TOO surprised, and then it was just one of those nice glimpses into the lives of characters past. It's nice that they've stayed friends this whole time. That was neat.

Speaking of characters past, though, I am now firmly of the opinion that "Lady M" was a mistake. It should not have been introduced into the overarching story the way it was, it should not have had the outsized influence on the universe that it does... I dunno. Thoughts? I don't mind the idea of the Megaroad-01 being stuck in a fold fault, but otherwise, the intergalactic influence a single colony ship has managed to exert from a position of almost complete isolation... it strains credulity.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, charles88 said:

For your information I'm also old timer as well as I'm been watching Macross for over 20 years.

It's not a d*ck-measuring contest.  

 

11 hours ago, charles88 said:

I'm got impression that some of old timer like you are very negative on Delta and think that japanese and new blood have sucky and poor taste as they praise Delta movie 2 and will nickpick and find any minor reason to hate Delta movie 2. Like those Old timer UC Gundam fan and Showa Ultra fan

[...]

And what do you guys think of Sv-303? I bet its suck because it's Delta

Your impression is very mistaken.  I'll chalk this ad hominem up to the fact that you're simply not familiar with the community.  You've created a lot of problems for yourself here by making inaccurate statements and trying to dismiss valid criticism of the film as "hate".  Nobody's going to take you seriously like that.

(The hilarious irony is that when all is said and done, I've been one of Delta's more vocal defenders in the English-speaking fan community.)

One unusual aspect I have noticed in Macross Delta is that it seems to have polarized its viewer base in Japan and abroad into two groups: fans of the real idol group Walkure, and fans of the Macross series.  There is some crossover between those two groups, but they have very different priorities and views of the series.  The fans with the most positive view are Walkure's fans, who are mainly interested in the new songs and the portion of the story that involves Walkure directly.  Fans who are there more for the Macross aspect of it are much more likely to find the series and movies disappointing because of their weak writing, the lack of development for many characters, the very poor dogfight choreography that dominated the TV anime, and it being so heavily derivative of Macross Frontier.  In that last point, you could say a lot of people are dissatisfied with Delta because it is a very UC-like sequel that stays so close to the story of the previous series.

Because this is a Macross fan community, you're going to find a lot of fans here who are here more for the story than for the music, and therefore find Macross Delta disappointing.  Nobody here arbitrarily hates it because it's Delta.  People are criticizing the many areas where the movie's execution is problematic, inconsistent, or simply incoherent.

 

Spoiler

11 hours ago, charles88 said:

Baby can sing because Eplison essentially implant her with advanced AI chip inside her head

No, that's kind of half-wrong and half-backwards.

The Quantum AI was not inside the cloned Star Singer cell culture, the cloned Star Singer cell culture was inside of (and a component of) the Quantum AI.  Walkure's songs in the movie caused that cell culture to develop into an infant that remained a component of the system until it was removed/rescued by Hayate at the end of the movie.  It was analogous to the organic components in the bio-neural chip that made Sharon Apple self-aware.  

 

11 hours ago, charles88 said:

And about spoil ending Macross Fontier movie 2 at least already spoil who villain and Sheryl at 1st movie and beginning of movie 2. Also Frontier Movie 2 follow basic storyframe from 2nd half of the Macross Frontier series while Delta Movie 2 are complete original as well

Those are two completely different things.

Macross Frontier's two movies are two parts of a single story, adapting and modifying the story of the TV anime.  Everyone already knew about Grace and the Cyber Nobles from the TV anime, so nothing was spoiled.

Macross Delta's first movie was a condensed adaptation of the TV anime, but the second was an original story separate from the TV anime.  Having it spoil its own ending barely 30 minutes in and then reminding the audience about it every ten minutes until the movie's over is a VERY big problem with its writing.

 

51 minutes ago, charles88 said:

In fact for some reason some of threader think that Lady M is main villain and somehow Eplison and Cromwell are more moral.than even Eplison. The SAME Eplison who sponsor Macross Galaxy conspirator, sponsor Roid and they the one steal Star Singer first. And use Baby fetus as main component for Siren system Weapon.

Um... did you miss that characters in this movie on the protagonist side make the same observation about Lady M being the same kind of villain as Cromwell? 

One of the major problems with the writing in this film is that it's heavily dependent on protagonist centered morality.  That Cromwell and Heimdall are "bad" is left almost entirely to the say-so of the film's main characters, and even the protagonists are unable to refute any of Cromwell's actual arguments when they're brought up.  It crosses the line into being a pretty silly argument if you're familiar with previous material.  That cloning and cybernetics can significantly improve quality of life for people with life-altering injuries was already a proven fact in Frontier-era materials, and that extensive use of unmanned weapons can save lives is a truism with the Frontier fleet using Ghosts extensively as first-response units and for high-risk recon missions and some emigrant fleets being established to use all-Ghost air forces.  Not only are Cromwell's arguments reasonable on the face of it, but several previous Macross works have already established that he's completely and objectively correct.

It's to the point where, if you're at all familiar with previous work, that Lady M's positions make NO SENSE and Cromwell sounds like a pretty reasonable dude.

I'm not sure how you can kid yourself that Lady M has any kind of high ground when both movies explicitly confirm she's objectively a criminal.  She broke the laws she herself forced the New UN Gov't to enact by carrying out illegal cloning experiments, then compounded that crime by falsifying documents to hide the fact that Mikumo is an illegal clone, violating all kinds of human rights laws by keeping Mikumo as a slave and child soldier, etc.  Made worse by the fact that she arranged for those laws to exist in the first place.  That's not to mention her culpability for Xaos's other criminal activities like their illegal participation in the war between Windermere IV and the New UN Gov't.  (That Xaos, as mercenaries, are unlawful combatants gets mentioned when Hayate, Mirage, and Freyja are put on trial and are denied prisoner of war protections guaranteed to soldiers for that reason.)

Edited October 11, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[Master Dex]

Yeah... Lady M is no saint no matter what their real identity is or their connection. There is a lot of designated hero leader stuff going on.

That being said while Seto it's entirely correct that Cromwell's motivations are reasonable... He does basically start committing terrorists acts and plans to scalp the surface of an inhabited planet just to destroy one ship (and like, he could just reposition Astrea to avoid that). He's not a designated villain by any means cause he's causing harm to people. His motivations and his failure to achieve his goals in less destructive ways through NUNG law basically lead him to drastic measures. Is he wrong to take up arms? Probably. Should people think about why he did it and not just brush him off as crazy? Yes they should. Will they? Probably not, and that might be the most realistic outcome. 

It is noteworthy the movie shows he cares about his subordinates though. So once again I feel like Kawamori is trying to show us Cromwell is not the worst but he leaves it up to viewers to decide who is right and wrong while still having the movie give the win to the heroes with no indication any change will result from this. 

[Seto Kaiba]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

He does basically start committing terrorists acts and plans to scalp the surface of an inhabited planet just to destroy one ship (and like, he could just reposition Astrea to avoid that). He's not a designated villain by any means cause he's causing harm to people. His motivations and his failure to achieve his goals in less destructive ways through NUNG law basically lead him to drastic measures. Is he wrong to take up arms? Probably. Should people think about why he did it and not just brush him off as crazy? Yes they should. Will they? Probably not, and that might be the most realistic outcome. 

That, of course, is the problem.

Lady M is an oligarch who corruptly controls much of the New UN Government and New UN Forces.  There are not exactly a ton of options for nonviolent, democratic methods to depose someone like that when they wield so much power that they can dictate government policy and break the law with apparent impunity.  Especially one whose followers are willing to rigidly enforce her diktats even at the cost of entire planets and the lives of their populations.

Spoiler

Remember, Cromwell's breaking point was that Lady M's supporters in the New UN Forces decided to let his home planet burn and its defense forces get wiped out rather than authorize the use of MDE weapons in its defense.  Anywhere from tens of thousands to potentially several million people died violently and apparently needlessly for Lady M's standards.

Cromwell does some questionable things, but he largely does them with kid gloves on until the very end of the movie when he risks damage to Windermere IV in order to defeat Lady M.  Everything we hear about Lady M though, which passes without comment or the slightest indication that it's unreasonable or false from Xaos, suggests she's at least as bad and potentially quite a lot worse.  (And one member of Delta Flight hangs a lampshade on the fact.)

 

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

It is noteworthy the movie shows he cares about his subordinates though. So once again I feel like Kawamori is trying to show us Cromwell is not the worst but he leaves it up to viewers to decide who is right and wrong while still having the movie give the win to the heroes with no indication any change will result from this. 

Not just that, his whole position basically boils down to disgust with Lady M's callous disregard for the lives of New UN Government citizens.  His objections to her laws are all on the basis of the potential those technologies have to save lives and prevent unnecessary loss of life.

 

[pengbuzz]

16 hours ago, charles88 said:

For your information I'm also old timer as well as I'm been watching Macross for over 20 years.

And I have bunions and calluses. What's your point?

 

16 hours ago, charles88 said:

I'm got impression that some of old timer like you are very negative on Delta and think that japanese and new blood have sucky and poor taste as they praise Delta movie 2 and will nickpick and find any minor reason to hate Delta movie 2. Like those Old timer UC Gundam fan and Showa Ultra fan

And about spoil ending Macross Fontier movie 2 at least already spoil who villain and Sheryl at 1st movie and beginning of movie 2. Also Frontier Movie 2 follow basic storyframe from 2nd half of the Macross Frontier series while Delta Movie 2 are complete original as well

And what do you guys think of Sv-303? I bet its suck because it's Delta

How about this: people have their own opinions on Delta just as they do everything else. Seriously, you may want to just take Seto Kaiba's comments to heart, as I cannot improve upon them (and wouldn't try in any event).

[darkranger12]

So what is the state of the NUNG after all the insurrections? I suspect theres gonna be more turmoil in the galaxy?  

[Bolt]

As far as Lady M. We have yet to see who exactly this is. And how exactly, she can influence so many from so far out. I personally would like to see the next Macross installment steering away from all this and focus on other elements within the Galaxy and Macross universe. 
I like the SV-303. Though there is little technical data on it (or anything else) , it looks pretty cool. And it looks to be pretty high end , performance wise, generally speaking. 

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, darkranger12 said:

So what is the state of the NUNG after all the insurrections? I suspect theres gonna be more turmoil in the galaxy?  

Unknown.  You'd think there'd be pretty considerable turmoil since the movie implies a fair chunk of the New UN Government and New UN Forces sided with Heimdall against Lady M.

Considering that Macross movies tend to be their own separate thing and only little bits and pieces make their way into the next TV anime, there's a better than even chance that it gets completely forgotten by the next series.

Hell, considering the Brisingr cluster is almost as much of a non-place as Jakku in Star Wars, I'd be unsurprised if the next series completely ignores Delta or treats it as an obscure historical footnote at best.

 

7 minutes ago, Bolt said:

As far as Lady M. We have yet to see who exactly this is. And how exactly, she can influence so many from so far out. I personally would like to see the next Macross installment steering away from all this and focus on other elements within the Galaxy and Macross universe. 

Me too, and thankfully that's the most likely option. 

[darkranger12]

Eh I liked the Brisingr cluster....if only the fact that we got new alien races.

[NightmarePlus]

Spoiler

Anyone else disappointed that they showed two Zentraedi Thurvel-Salan  class battleships with the Heimdall aligned fleet at Windermere yet were missing at the final battle?

 

[charles88]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

  Hide contents

That, of course, is the problem.

Lady M is an oligarch who corruptly controls much of the New UN Government and New UN Forces.  There are not exactly a ton of options for nonviolent, democratic methods to depose someone like that when they wield so much power that they can dictate government policy and break the law with apparent impunity.  Especially one whose followers are willing to rigidly enforce her diktats even at the cost of entire planets and the lives of their populations.

  Hide contents

Remember, Cromwell's breaking point was that Lady M's supporters in the New UN Forces decided to let his home planet burn and its defense forces get wiped out rather than authorize the use of MDE weapons in its defense.  Anywhere from tens of thousands to potentially several million people died violently and apparently needlessly for Lady M's standards.

Cromwell does some questionable things, but he largely does them with kid gloves on until the very end of the movie when he risks damage to Windermere IV in order to defeat Lady M.  Everything we hear about Lady M though, which passes without comment or the slightest indication that it's unreasonable or false from Xaos, suggests she's at least as bad and potentially quite a lot worse.  (And one member of Delta Flight hangs a lampshade on the fact.)

 

Not just that, his whole position basically boils down to disgust with Lady M's callous disregard for the lives of New UN Government citizens.  His objections to her laws are all on the basis of the potential those technologies have to save lives and prevent unnecessary loss of life.

 

Spoiler

Biggest issue was that he wanted complete complete unbanned on cvbernatic , AI and cloning technology as well unregulated Protoculture tech research could led opening of Pandora box in long termdespite Cromwell short sighted  good intention.

For example, unrestrited cloning tech could save lives in medical but it could led some of more evil people or organization use cloning tech for their selfish gain such as creating slave people worker  via cloning or worse creating clone army that no diffrerent than Protoculture create Zentradi oe even worse creating mass produce  clone baby to make as main component for weapon system such as Siren system which so unethical its would create mass riot if citizen found out about it. And dont mention of moral ethical on Sentient right on clone people as evil people would justified that they creted those clone people thus, its their property abd have NO righ.Lady M justified cloning restriction as to prevent the repeat of Protoculture's downfall due to creating Zentradi army.

As for unrestrictive implants research, the reason for Zentradi use safely that Zentradi only taught how to fight and use the equipment, but have no idea how it works, how to repair it, and have no culture outside of being part of the war machine, thus their tech did not improve at all until tehy meet with humanity. Of course, this led to implant and cybernetic advancement which led to the Implant network. The issue was Implant tech already being abused such as on how Macross Galaxy use implant and cybernetic to enslave their citizen and make them pawns and puppet-like Brera by erasing their memory. Also it could use to actually enslave another sentient species such as Vajra , a species that Protoculture worship akin to a Divine being. Also, it could lead some organization to use implants to enslave worker or worse trick new species of sentient races to use implants and then enslave them.

Restrictive AI reseach also came from whole Sharon Apple incident and NUNS do not want a repeat that. Also, AI could turn against their master like how Siren System, in the end, turns against her master. Also there possible of AI went Skynet on NUNS like Sharon Apple.

As for Protoculture research restrictions and ban, its justified because well, they weren't exactly nice people and most of their surviving stuff is pretty horrifying. They uplifted/created and then mass produced a slave race to do their fighting for them who were treated as organic parts of the machine (Zentradi are mass cloned, taught how to fight and use the equipment, but have no idea how it works, how to repair it, and have no culture outside of being part of the war machine.) Their developing the Evil Series (super-zentradi) and getting them possessed by the Protodelvians is what started their civilization's crash. They will tinker and modify other races they come across and then leave planetary genocide machines behind if they don't like the end results (Bird Human). They had a history eraser button on Oroborus, and they have the mass mind control machine in the Brinstar cluster.

Even something seemingly benign like a temple for communicating with the gods and sometimes even the dead has several reasons for making sure that its left alone or studied under controlled conditions. It is a significant historical artifact regardless of its functionality and should be studied to be able to learn more about the history of the galaxy and the Protoculture itself, and you don't want tourists defacing or looting stuff from it. Defacing and looting historical artifacts has, sadly, been a human activity since antiquity (the British even made it their national pastime hey-oh!). I doubt that the near extinction of humanity removed that particular trait. A more security-related reason is that tinkering with the ruins could very well unleash space Cthulu or a zombie horde because it was actually meant to keep some bad thing sealed away and we just broke that seal.

 

Cromwell is also not exactly noble at all he is more than willing to destroy Planet Windermare and commit genocide just to destroy Megaroad-01 for revenge. Also, he treated Siren System which contains baby as no more than a tool of war and without care, Sure Lady M broke the law on cloning Mikumo, but at least Lady M only cloned only 1 and accelerate her growth into adult and allow her to have free will and bond with Walkure  and don't even put mind control implant or bomb to ensure her obedience or don't plug her into the machine and shove AI chip inside her head like how Eplison foundation  shove their cloned Star singer baby into the machine. If Lady M is eviler than Cromwell as you claimed to be, Lady M already mass-cloning  Mikumo with a mind control implant or worse creating system similar to the Siren system.

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by charles88

[pengbuzz]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Unknown.  You'd think there'd be pretty considerable turmoil since the movie implies a fair chunk of the New UN Government and New UN Forces sided with Heimdall against Lady M.

Considering that Macross movies tend to be their own separate thing and only little bits and pieces make their way into the next TV anime, there's a better than even chance that it gets completely forgotten by the next series.

Hell, considering the Brisingr cluster is almost as much of a non-place as Jakku in Star Wars, I'd be unsurprised if the next series completely ignores Delta or treats it as an obscure historical footnote at best.

 

Me too, and thankfully that's the most likely option. 

Right about now, I'd like to see them get away from the Jenius family again and focus on some different pilots. Maybe even take a jump of about a century like Star Trek did with TNG.

(On that note, may go rewatch MII later on...)

[MKT]

Mecha wise, Battle Astrea looks the most appealing, somehow grafting on those wings makes it look good.  I like how Macross Gigasion was depicted as well, though not so sure about its colors..

Would like Bandai to make these into Chogokins, but I think outside of Frontier when it was the golden age of Chogokins, slim chances on these then.

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, charles88 said:

Spoiler

Biggest issue was that he wanted complete complete unbanned on cvbernatic , AI and cloning technology as well unregulated Protoculture tech research could led opening of Pandora box in long termdespite Cromwell short sighted  good intention.

 

This argument of yours was already refuted in previous posts.

It is mildly entertaining that you accidentally made a fairly compelling case for Lady M being the real villain though.

 

5 hours ago, charles88 said:

Spoiler

For example, unrestrited cloning tech could save lives in medical but it could led some of more evil people or organization use cloning tech for their selfish gain such as creating slave people worker  via cloning

You realize this is refuted right in the movie itself, right?

"Evil people or organizations" with the resources and desire to do something like that are going to do it regardless of whether the technology is legal or not... like the criminal Lady M did.

 

5 hours ago, charles88 said:

Spoiler

which so unethical its would create mass riot if citizen found out about it.

That is debatable at best, considering you're repeatedly misrepresenting what the Siren Delta System even was.

Spoiler

It was a cloned cell culture, it developed into a baby as a result of interaction with Walkure.

 

5 hours ago, charles88 said:

Spoiler

And dont mention of moral ethical on Sentient right on clone people as evil people would justified that they creted those clone people thus, its their property abd have NO righ.

Like Lady M did?  

It's worth noting the New UN Government does consider clones to have the same fundamental rights as a natural-born being, and the vast majority of humans in the setting are the descendants of clones.

 

5 hours ago, charles88 said:

Spoiler

The issue was Implant tech already being abused such as on how Macross Galaxy use implant and cybernetic to enslave their citizen and make them pawns and puppet-like Brera by erasing their memory. Also it could use to actually enslave another sentient species such as Vajra , a species that Protoculture worship akin to a Divine being. Also, it could lead some organization to use implants to enslave worker or worse trick new species of sentient races to use implants and then enslave them.

This is a legitimate concern... but only for one very specific type of cybernetic technology.

As noted previously, this ignores the fundamental reality that non-networked medical cybernetics can greatly improve quality of life for people needing limb replacements and the like and allow them to live full and unrestrained lives.

 

5 hours ago, charles88 said:

Spoiler

Restrictive AI reseach also came from whole Sharon Apple incident and NUNS do not want a repeat that. Also, AI could turn against their master like how Siren System, in the end, turns against her master. Also there possible of AI went Skynet on NUNS like Sharon Apple.

This also ignores some pretty important facts.

The Sharon Apple incident was triggered by the last-minute addition of technology that was known to be dangerously unreliable and which had not been a part of the Sharon Apple system up to that point.  To a lesser extent, it was also caused by sampling emotion data for Sharon's AI from a person with a hideous amount of psychological baggage.  It wasn't a flaw in the underlying AI technology being developed, it was an issue of methodology in developing the Sharon virtuoid.  That same AI technology is later used without incident in multiple models of unmanned fighter.  Stable personality emulation AIs have also been created by LAI, based on people who weren't nuts.

Spoiler

Likewise, the issue with the Siren Delta System is not in the underlying AI technology so much as an unforeseen interaction with Walkure that caused the system's bio-fold wave core to develop from a cloned cell sample into a living being with its own will.  

 

5 hours ago, charles88 said:

Spoiler

As for Protoculture research restrictions and ban, its justified because well, they weren't exactly nice people and most of their surviving stuff is pretty horrifying.

Not all of it... there have been a few big disasters caused by buried Protoculture weapons, but humanity has also used a lot of captured Protoculture-built tech to considerably positive effect like the factory satellites that underpin mass-manufacturing in the New UN Government and the genetic engineering technology that was used to keep Earth a habitable planet after the First Space War.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, MKT said:

Mecha wise, Battle Astrea looks the most appealing, somehow grafting on those wings makes it look good.  I like how Macross Gigasion was depicted as well, though not so sure about its colors..

Would like Bandai to make these into Chogokins, but I think outside of Frontier when it was the golden age of Chogokins, slim chances on these then.

It'd be interesting, but I suspect the lukewarm reception of the Chogokin Macross Quarter may have soured our chances of that.

[MKT]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It'd be interesting, but I suspect the lukewarm reception of the Chogokin Macross Quarter may have soured our chances of that.

I don’t know why the Chogokin Quarter didn’t do well.

Was it because capital ships traditionally don’t sell well? Yet the SDF-1 toys don’t have this problem.

Was it because it generally wasn’t a great toy due to not being able to hold up its own limbs well?

Perhaps there were too many Macross toys being released in that few years time frame. From memory, it seemed there was a Chogokin & Yamato release every month, so valks become the priority for most people.

But usually as time goes by, prices of these things increase as supply dries up & people realizing there are no updated or new versions of a particular toy. Yet, the secondary prices of Quarter still firmly remain below MSRP after all these years..

It was nice Bandai did Macross Elysion under the small Mecha Collection range, but I am still hoping they come out with something much larger, & extend it to the Gigasion or something.

 

[jenius]

Even the SDF-1 doesn't sell well, that's why we don't get a modern TV version. 

[MKT]

23 minutes ago, jenius said:

Even the SDF-1 doesn't sell well, that's why we don't get a modern TV version. 

Let’s say both TV & DYRL SDF-1 weren’t flying off shelves at the beginning, the prices now have rocketed way beyond their MSRP. This being looking at Yamcadia DYRL & Cosmo Fleet TV SDF-1s. 

But Chogokin Quarter being the only toy of itself will still occasionally turn up at less than HMR (VF-0) prices. 

[charles88]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

This is a legitimate concern... but only for one very specific type of cybernetic technology.

As noted previously, this ignores the fundamental reality that non-networked medical cybernetics can greatly improve quality of life for people needing limb replacements and the like and allow them to live full and unrestrained lives.

 

Spoiler

Because there law and restriction on implant and cybernatic research and development as to prevent anyone place hidden backdoor program to mind control and mandate program and software that resistance to hacking, after all it need software and program to allow those implant and cybernatic function properly. Cromwell goal to completly remove those restriction and law that ensure those safety and checking for 'progress'. Which means its also include removing restriction or ban on the Implant network.

 

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You realize this is refuted right in the movie itself, right?

"Evil people or organizations" with the resources and desire to do something like that are going to do it regardless of whether the technology is legal or not... like the criminal Lady M did.

Spoiler

Lady M forced her hand on cloning Mikumo due to Eplison Foundation already stolen Star singer cell and Lady M actually assign Wright to take take back cell from Eolison, Not steal it, only that Wright able to retrive only one and cost his life when he try to retrieve the rest of the cell. This means Lady M never tasks Wright steal Star Singer cell in the first place. Its also implied that Father Johann the one who suggests Lady M use Star singer to clone Mikumo to act as a counter against Eplison who got the cell first. Also like i say, if you think Lady M is evil, why Lady M did not mass clone Mikumo as they have 3 years to do it and instead cloned only 1? Also Lady M did not use implant mind control or bomb to force compliance at all or plug her into machine, unlike Eplison who use AI implant on a fetus and plug it into the machine.

 

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Lady M forced her hand on cloning Mikumo due to Eplison Foundation already stolen Star singer cell and Lady M actually assign Wright to take take back cell from Eolison, Not steal it, only that Wright able to retrive only one and cost his life when he try to retrieve the rest of the cell. This means Lady M never tasks Wright steal Star Singer cell in the first place. Its also implied that Father Johann the one who suggests Lady M use Star singer to clone Mikumo to act as a counter against Eplison who got the cell first. Also like i say, if you think Lady M is evil, why Lady M did not mass clone Mikumo as they have 3 years to do it and instead cloned only 1? Also Lady M did not use implant mind control or bomb to force compliance at all or plug her into machine, unlike Eplison who use AI implant on a fetus and plug it into the machine.

Spoiler

Throughout

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not all of it... there have been a few big disasters caused by buried Protoculture weapons, but humanity has also used a lot of captured Protoculture-built tech to considerably positive effect like the factory satellites that underpin mass-manufacturing in the New UN Government and the genetic engineering technology that was used to keep Earth a habitable planet after the First Space War.

In movie , Sidney the one who keep monitoring Siren Sytem all the time to make adjustment on Siren System, so obvoiusly he knows those cell develop into baby. Yet he seems does not care that along with Cromwell. Its seems that both of then care less on those fetus develop into baby as long as its serves its purpose as main component of Siren system

 

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not all of it... there have been a few big disasters caused by buried Protoculture weapons, but humanity has also used a lot of captured Protoculture-built tech to considerably positive effect like the factory satellites that underpin mass-manufacturing in the New UN Government and the genetic engineering technology that was used to keep Earth a habitable planet after the First Space War.

Its because thanks to law that ensure that Protoculture ruin and tech have no hidden WMD like Bird Human and Devil series and people who investigae are responsible and morally right people. Cromwell wanted remove those ban which means it allow all reseacher and organiztion reaerach on all Protoculture tech which include WMD and replicate it without supervioson at all. It took 1 bad batch people would love to use and  abuse those Protoculture WMD for their selfish gain and potentially wipe civilization or history itself. Best example is Todoh from Macross 30 found Devil series that can freaking time travel and he want to use to rewrite history on Space war 1. Just imagine what if those reriction and ban removed, it could led NUNS replicate those dangeroes WMD like time travel and could led to disater if NUNS abuse time travel tech and it took 1 bas people toscrew it everything like Todoh.

Edited October 12, 2022 by charles88

[Seto Kaiba]

25 minutes ago, charles88 said:

Because there law and restriction on implant and cybernatic research and development as to prevent anyone place hidden backdoor program to mind control and mandate program and software that resistance to hacking, after all it need software and program to allow those implant and cybernatic function properly.

The only kind of implants that posed any risk were networked brain implants.  There is no risk whatsoever from ordinary limb or organ replacements, and indeed we see several characters in past works who had such limb replacements with no issue whatsoever.

The problem every single one of your arguments is going to run into is that for every one misuse of the technology in question there are a thousand legitimate and beneficial uses.

You also keep making this strawman argument about Cromwell pushing for total deregulation... he only advocated for legalization of those banned technologies.

 

27 minutes ago, charles88 said:

Lady M forced her hand

That's a load of bull, and you know it.

Even in the movie, literally nobody attempts to defend what Lady M did.  They even say Lady M is at least as bad as Cromwell.

 

29 minutes ago, charles88 said:

Also like i say, if you think Lady M is evil, why Lady M did not mass clone Mikumo

How do you know she didn't?  How do you know there isn't some laboratory somewhere with ten, twenty, a hundred Mikumos waiting to be activated should something happen to the one we see like Gendo's tank full of Reis in Evangelion?  Maybe Mikumo is just the prototype.  Maybe she's not even the first Mikumo.  Maybe Mikumo is just the first one that worked, and there's a laboratory full of failed clones that were terminated because they didn't meet requirements like Ripley-8 in Alien: Resurrection.  Because Lady M created her clandestinely and illegally, there is potentially a LOT of shady stuff that could be going on there.

 

Spoiler

39 minutes ago, charles88 said:

Also Lady M did not use implant mind control or bomb to force compliance at all or plug her into machine, unlike Eplison who use AI implant on a fetus and plug it into the machine.

You keep saying that, and it's still not accurate.

Spoiler

Nobody put an "AI implant" in a fetus.

A cell culture of Star Singer cells was installed in the Siren Delta System as a fold wave source.  That's all.

 

Spoiler

42 minutes ago, charles88 said:

In movie , Sidney the one who keep monitoring Siren Sytem all the time to make adjustment on Siren System, so obvoiusly he knows those cell develop into baby.

Spoiler

Considering Heimdall's forces shoot him dead partway through the film, he wasn't exactly in a position to monitor a lot of that development.

 

43 minutes ago, charles88 said:

Its because thanks to law that ensure that Protoculture ruin and tech have no hidden WMD like Bird Human and Devil series and people who investigae are responsible and morally right people.

... wow, you really haven't been paying attention at all have you?

Did you forget that the events of Macross 7 happened because one of those government-appointed "responsible and morally right" people decided to try to monopolize the finds from the site on the Varauta iceworld for their own gain? 

 

49 minutes ago, charles88 said:

Just imagine what if those reriction and ban removed,

Then those finds and that research would be subject to the New UN Government's technology-sharing laws, meaning research like that would not be able to proceed in secret and threats like that would be much harder to create with many more eyes on the situation.

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The only kind of implants that posed any risk were networked brain implants.  There is no risk whatsoever from ordinary limb or organ replacements, and indeed we see several characters in past works who had such limb replacements with no issue whatsoever.

The problem every single one of your arguments is going to run into is that for every one misuse of the technology in question there are a thousand legitimate and beneficial uses.

You also keep making this strawman argument about Cromwell pushing for total deregulation... he only advocated for legalization of those banned technologies.

Like any technology, Overtechnology can be used for benign or malevolent intents and purpose. I do think that the brain implants though were pushing it (not a big fan of anything wired into one's skull, TBH). And yeah: having finally seen this (favor from a friend), Cromwell never argued for all-out deregulation.

 

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's a load of bull, and you know it.

Even in the movie, literally nobody attempts to defend what Lady M did.  They even say Lady M is at least as bad as Cromwell.

Right?

 

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

How do you know she didn't?  How do you know there isn't some laboratory somewhere with ten, twenty, a hundred Mikumos waiting to be activated should something happen to the one we see like Gendo's tank full of Reis in Evangelion?  Maybe Mikumo is just the prototype.  Maybe she's not even the first Mikumo.  Maybe Mikumo is just the first one that worked, and there's a laboratory full of failed clones that were terminated because they didn't meet requirements like Ripley-8 in Alien: Resurrection.  Because Lady M created her clandestinely and illegally, there is potentially a LOT of shady stuff that could be going on there.

I remember that scene in Evangelion, and was horrified at the outcome:

Spoiler

All of them disintegrating at the flick of a switch. O.o

Also:

Spoiler

How do we know that Mikumo is the only one that Lady M cloned? There could be clones of Hikau, Misa, and just about anyone else aboard that ship and in vast numbers! The ones that came to the window during the interrupt in the fold fault could have been clones themselves.

 

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... wow, you really haven't been paying attention at all have you?

Did you forget that the events of Macross 7 happened because one of those government-appointed "responsible and morally right" people decided to try to monopolize the finds from the site on the Varauta iceworld for their own gain? 

Admittedly, I didn't quite realize that, so I went back and re-watched the parts in M7 where they found the Varuta iceworld. To think that all of that could have been prevented, although in the end, Basara's singing allowed them to generate their own spiritua, and freed them from an eternal prison.

 

Now this one from charles88:

12 hours ago, charles88 said:

Just imagine what if those reriction and ban removed, it could led NUNS replicate those dangeroes WMD like time travel and could led to disater if NUNS abuse time travel tech and it took 1 bas people toscrew it everything like Todoh.

As Seto said:

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Then those finds and that research would be subject to the New UN Government's technology-sharing laws, meaning research like that would not be able to proceed in secret and threats like that would be much harder to create with many more eyes on the situation.

Charles88: no one in Macross wanted any restrictions removed on time travel. I think you're combining a bunch of stuff here to create the aforementioned "strawman". and somehow paint Lady M as a "good guy".

Edited October 13, 2022 by pengbuzz

[Master Dex]

I don't think anyone is saying Epsilon is a saintly group here. But we have to keep in mind that just cause one group does bad things doesn't mean the other is righteous. 

Actually, I don't think any of us were even discussing Epsilon at all. It was you that kept bringing them up as a sort of "what about..." move. Like yeah they did bad stuff but not all their clients were without justifiable reasons. They all chose to do something bad but their intentions were either misguided or understandable. They'd still get convicted by a court if they lived. But so would Lady M if she actually faces repercussions for her actions.

That's all we're saying. She's not a good person just because she's in charge of the heroes. We don't actually know why she has such a stranglehold on the NUNG. We just kinda assume she means well but it's certainly not a popular idea to the masses. People don't like oligarchs secretly controlling them without explanation. 

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, charles88 said:

Well [...]

I'd suggest you take the disingenuous strawman arguments somewhere else.  Nobody's interested.

 

4 hours ago, charles88 said:

Remember in Macross Zero where those regulation did not exist where those Anti UN plan to use Protoculture WMD Bird Human to defeat UN? It end up bite in their ass and almost destroy humanity.

In Macross Zero, the Anti-Unification Alliance forces are the remnants of an anti-government militia whose armed opposition to the Earth Unification Government and UN Forces had frequently crossed the line into large-scale terrorist activities.  Just two years previously they had destroyed the city of St. Petersburg in Russia with a thermonuclear weapon.  In the OVA they deployed a thermobaric bomb on Mayan island.  They are NOT people who would have followed a government ban on researching certain technologies or types of artifacts.

The fundamental fact that you keep missing here is that a government ban on a type of research or a particular technology doesn't magically remove that from existence or place it out of reach for everyone.  Blanket bans only work on the pathologically law-abiding.  That research will inevitably still happen and those technologies will still be used because there will still be people for whom the benefits outweigh the risks, who believe they're above the law, and/or who refuse to acknowledge the ban because they find it unjust.  Cromwell and Lady M are perfect examples of that.  Lady M violated the ban on cloning because she believed she was above the law and that her cause was more important than adherance to it.  Cromwell likewise violated the ban on AI research because he views the ban itself as unjust and argues that the technology has highly beneficial legitimate uses.

A blanket ban achieves little besides depriving the government of the ability to properly regulate that research or technology's application and preventing any beneficial applications of that research/technology from being used for the common good.  Of course, because the movie's whole plot makes no sense in context it's worth noting that past works have already effectively established that Cromwell and Heimdall's viewpoint is objectively correct.

I'm not going to dignify your political strawman with a response, but if you keep trying to inject politics into this I will report your posts and have you removed.

 

Spoiler

4 hours ago, charles88 said:

And How do you know Lady did? Because so far there no evidence Lady M did it as in Mikumo Flashback show she only one in cloning pod and i did not any more cloning pod? Also Movie 2 already state Lady M was not behind the theft of Star Singer cell, its Eplison Foundation did it

From a basic engineering standpoint, it is preposterously unlikely that Mikumo was the only clone constructed.

It took Lady M YEARS to recreate a viable Star Singer from the genetic material her agents unlawfully removed from Windermere IV.  There were doubtless many tests conducted to create a viable clone as they reconstructed the degraded DNA of the Star Singer.  There are probably quite a lot of terminated prototypes that were created before Mikumo.

It's also rather implausible that there wouldn't be a backup or two, considering Mikumo Guynemer was created to be a frontline soldier.  A fundamentally quite dangerous role which lends itself to violent and messy death, especially for an unarmed, unarmored person on a battlefield dominated by things like uncontrollable rioters and soldiers driven mad by Var syndrome.  

 

4 hours ago, charles88 said:

Seems that you guys love to condemned Lady M and yet you guys silent in Eplison Foundation  and some of you somehow think Eplison Foundation are more 'good guy' or more support than Lady M  while in lore and movie,  Eplison Foundation commit miles worse criminal and activities such as

There's that strawman again.  Pack him up or clear out.

No, nobody here is saying that the Epsilon Foundation are "good guys".  They're pretty clearly and consistently amoral, but the only thing you're accusing them of that was actually a crime is Sydney Hunt's theft of a Star Singer relic.  The rest is distortions of the facts or blaming them for the actions of their clients.  Macross Galaxy's corporate government was a questionable undertaking in hindsight but it was a recognized New UN Government member state.  There is nothing inherently wrong with doing business with them, especially since said business would've had to occur BEFORE their ulterior motives became known.  Similarly, there was nothing inherently wrong with selling weapons to Windermere IV because the Kingdom of the Wind is a recognized government and former New UN Gov't member that the NUNG still openly trades with.  Their involvement with Heimdall is more questionable in strictly legal terms, but as Heimdall's goal was to overthrow a despotic oligarch who secretly controlled the government their decision to assist him isn't exactly card-carrying villain stuff either.

Even the Epsilon Foundation is not significantly worse than Xaos, who violate the laws of war and collude in illegal cloning and slave-trafficking.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[kajnrig]

So... I take it that Lady M is generally disliked by fans?  I mean as an overarching narrative device, she holds far too much power. I don't see future entries in the franchise being able to build upon the (admittedly vague and hand-wavy) "galactic canon" while ignoring her the same way older entries have been able to casually dance around each other.

The only way to ignore her role in the wider galactic goings-on would be to ignore the wider galactic goings-on entirely and severely limit the scope of the next Macross story... which, frankly, wouldn't be a bad idea anyway.