Resisting 'default translation army bias': a passionate, rational defense of naval terms in Macross

[aurance]

Jesus Christ, you people.

(I mean this in the fondest way, and having enthusiastically read the entire thread )

[Bolt]

Good times

[Saruta]

Regarding ranks, I'm coning in from a global perspective (originally from Russia) and I would suggest a hypothesis that kinda mixes these things, and, I think, works with everything on-screen. 

- In 2009, the officers on the restored Macross are all Air Force and use Air Force ranks similar to army (we see some of those on the Cat's Eye). But Global was pulled in from the Navy and retains his Navy-style ranking for the time being.

- At some later date, post the 2010 catastrophe, there is a merger of all remaining forces, with all ranks restyled based on Air Force, but translation of ranks was not done by Americans. This explains the "warrant officer" status of Alto. This is not the modern American Warrant Officer - they simply redesignated the former naval rank of  Ensign as Warrant Officer. It might not make much sense in NATO terms, but there could well be a dictionary mess somewhere. In Russian terms, where a "praporschik" (commonly translated as warrant officer) is equal in rank to a "michman" (a naval rank that is functionally a warrant officer, but is often translated as ensign). 

As an aside, while in English there is no inherent clarity in what a "colonel" commands, Slavic languages do have such clarity. A Colonel is a "polkovnik" in Russian, and "polk" is a regiment. So the rank is basically "regiment-man".

 

[JB0]

I do think there's one additional wrinkle worth noting. The Macross, as seen in SDF Macross, was arguably a multi-service "fleet".

Though they were manned by Spacey forces (or civilians trained by Spacey forces) after the fold accident, the Daedalus and Prometheus were not Spacey vessels, they were UN Navy property.  I have no idea how this affects anything, particularly as the naval crews of the Daedalus and Prometheus were killed in action after their ships suffered explosive decompression(which is obviously not an emergency naval crews drill for or are equipped to handle).

 

So... questions, and my thoughts.

Are the D&P salvage, and property of the Spacey after the Macross reclaims them? Does the Spacey bear a responsibility to return them to the Navy? (Moot point I suppose, but...)

Are they simply considered parts of the Macross and no longer actual independent ships? (Presumably not, as the Macross crew refers to them by their independent vessel names, though that may have been a matter of convenience or respect rather than evidence of legal status. )

Do they continue to bear naval designations in memory of their crews, despite being part of a Spacey warship instead of distinct vessels? (I really like this idea, and my personal headcanon now says that after the Macross's "ARMD arms" refit, the Prometheus and Daedalus were rebuilt to their original specifications, returned to seaworthiness, and designated as museum ships. This is obviously not supported by anything anywhere, but it also isn't disproved by anything that I know of.)

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Saruta said:

- In 2009, the officers on the restored Macross are all Air Force and use Air Force ranks similar to army (we see some of those on the Cat's Eye). But Global was pulled in from the Navy and retains his Navy-style ranking for the time being.

You'd expect that, as a formalized branch of service since 2003, the Spacy would have an established rank system of its own that would apply to all of its personnel.  

 

1 hour ago, Saruta said:

- At some later date, post the 2010 catastrophe, there is a merger of all remaining forces, with all ranks restyled based on Air Force, but translation of ranks was not done by Americans.

But that demonstrably didn't happen, as the Navy and Air Force are established to still be around in the 2040s.

(Isamu Dyson, the human equivalent of the re-gifted fruitcake, got transferred between branches of service several times including a stint aboard the [New] UN Navy's carrier Enterprise and in the [New] UN Air Force.)

 

1 hour ago, Saruta said:

This explains the "warrant officer" status of Alto. This is not the modern American Warrant Officer - they simply redesignated the former naval rank of  Ensign as Warrant Officer. It might not make much sense in NATO terms, but there could well be a dictionary mess somewhere.

They're using it in the Japanese sense, where it's essentially an officer candidate rank for a NCO who's up for a commission.  The unusual usage (i.e. not depicting Alto or Hayate as an NCO beforehand) may be down to the fact that neither of them are serving with a real military... they're with PMCs.  IIRC once he joined the Spacy he got a commission right away.

 

1 hour ago, Saruta said:

In Russian terms, where a "praporschik" (commonly translated as warrant officer) is equal in rank to a "michman" (a naval rank that is functionally a warrant officer, but is often translated as ensign). 

As an aside, while in English there is no inherent clarity in what a "colonel" commands, Slavic languages do have such clarity. A Colonel is a "polkovnik" in Russian, and "polk" is a regiment. So the rank is basically "regiment-man".

Blame the Romans and the French, it's mostly their fault.

Most of the words used for military ranks in English are actually Latin that's been strained through Italian and then middle French before being butchered further by the British.  In their original forms, and even some of their derivative forms, they did refer to the particular formation the person belonged to or commanded.  Some of the later additions made by the French and English were in the self-explanatory category, indicating the role or status the person held.  "Lieutenant" was essentially a synonym for deputy or substitute, used to refer to people who were the direct subordinates of a captain.  "Brigadier" was just a title for a colonel who'd been granted command of an entire brigade.  A "Colonel" commanded a column, as the word was derived from the Latin for such.  "Private" was the weirdest one, a relatively late addition that was a shortening of "private soldiers", meaning the conscripts or volunteers who were private citizens outside of wartime.

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, JB0 said:

I do think there's one additional wrinkle worth noting. The Macross, as seen in SDF Macross, was arguably a multi-service "fleet".

The Spacy were the only ones who brought a working ship, so they were the ones calling the shots.

 

30 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Though they were manned by Spacey forces (or civilians trained by Spacey forces) after the fold accident, the Daedalus and Prometheus were not Spacey vessels, they were UN Navy property.  I have no idea how this affects anything, particularly as the naval crews of the Daedalus and Prometheus were killed in action after their ships suffered explosive decompression (which is obviously not an emergency naval crews drill for or are equipped to handle).

Macross spells it "Spacy".  Gundam spells it "Spacey" with an "e".

More importantly, neither ship lost its entire crew or even most of it. 

Both the CVS-101 Prometheus and SLV-111 Daedalus were designed to be operated as semi-submersible warships able to run with almost the entire ship underwater for stealth purposes.  As such they were pretty thoroughly airtight.  They were still on alert when the Macross accidentally transported them to space, so the airtight hatches were sealed for combat.  There was some loss of life, but it was limited to personnel who were outside the airtight sections of the ships.  Macross Chronicle confirms that most of their crews were safe and continued to serve aboard those ships after they were docked permanently to the Macross and modified for space use.

 

30 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Are the D&P salvage, and property of the Spacey after the Macross reclaims them? Does the Spacey bear a responsibility to return them to the Navy? (Moot point I suppose, but...)

Officially, "not my problem" according to the UN Forces... who listed both as sunk in the same fictitious Anti-Unification Alliance attack that destroyed South Ataria Island in the UN Forces' cover story for the island's disappearance.  If they'd tried to remove them they'd probably have just racked up parking tickets despite not officially existing anymore.

I suppose the question became academic after the First Space War's conclusion left all three ships in rough shape and in no real position to be returned to service in any capacity.

Since neither ship was capable of independent operation in space, they were likely treated as "on loan" to the Macross and under the command of its captain until such time as they could be returned to Earth... by which point there was nobody to return them to anymore for a Ferris Bueller's Day Off-esque nightmare scenario.

 

30 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Do they continue to bear naval designations in memory of their crews, despite being part of a Spacey warship instead of distinct vessels? (I really like this idea, and my personal headcanon now says that after the Macross's "ARMD arms" refit, the Prometheus and Daedalus were rebuilt to their original specifications, returned to seaworthiness, and designated as museum ships. This is obviously not supported by anything anywhere, but it also isn't disproved by anything that I know of.)

Yes, albeit not in memory of the still-very-much-alive crews who were operating them in every capacity except as independent ships.

For maximum confusion, the UN Spacy had its own CV sequence that was separate from the UN Navy's... which is probably why the Spacy preferred to use ARMD instead of SCV when referring to the ARMD-class carriers.  SCV vs. CVS would've gotten confusing in fairly short order.  (The Spacy's is more consistent with the origin of the term, being a cruiser that supported aircraft in the form of the original ARMD-class.)

There wasn't really anything left of the Daedalus to rebuilt, and the Prometheus was in better shape to be an artificial reef than a functioning warship when all was said and done but there's no mention of what became of it after it was removed.  If they hadn't already, I imagine they'd probably have wanted to scrap the Prometheus so they could safely remove and dispose of the nuclear material in its fission reactors.  (The scattered fissile material from the Daedalus's reactors probably made for one impressively nasty cleanup job.)

[JB0]

32 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross spells it "Spacy".  Gundam spells it "Spacey" with an "e".

Doh!

I don't even watch much Gundam. Just think it looks better with an e, so my brain keeps editing it in.

 

32 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

More importantly, neither ship lost its entire crew or even most of it. 

Both the CVS-101 Prometheus and SLV-111 Daedalus were designed to be operated as semi-submersible warships able to run with almost the entire ship underwater for stealth purposes.  As such they were pretty thoroughly airtight.  They were still on alert when the Macross accidentally transported them to space, so the airtight hatches were sealed for combat. 

Not disputing the point, I'm sure you're right. But that is a really annoying addition to the setting, given the TV show has the Macross's bridge crew being horrified at the loss of life and explicitly calling the boats out as not designed to survive in a vacuum. Obviously, the easy answer is just "they were mistaken, and greatly relieved to be so", but... it would've been nice to show it onscreen. (Of course, there's huge differences between designing for airtight underwater and airtight in space, what with the pressure being backwards and all, but overtechnology seals and hulls let you handwave that away easily enough. I mean, more easily than transforming jetplanes and 30-foot humans.)

It DOES make the question of Navy versus Spacy ranks more than just academic, though. Though I suppose Global just said "My ship, my rules. You're all drafted into the Spacy, effective immediately."
 

37 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Since neither ship was capable of independent operation in space, they were likely treated as "on loan" to the Macross and under the command of its captain until such time as they could be returned to Earth... by which point there was nobody to return them to anymore for a Ferris Bueller's Day Off-esque nightmare scenario. 

Well, they skipped the chance to take them back the first time the Macross came home. Likely because they were already "destroyed with all hands", combined with dismounting them from the Macross and undoing the modifications being just a tiny bit of a chore. (And then wanting the Macross off the planet ASAP to bait the zentradi away, thanks Kamjin.)

 

38 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There wasn't really anything left of the Daedalus to rebuilt, and the Prometheus was in better shape to be an artificial reef than a functioning warship when all was said and done but there's no mention of what became of it after it was removed.  If they hadn't already, I imagine they'd probably have wanted to scrap the Prometheus so they could safely remove and dispose of the nuclear material in its fission reactors.  (The scattered fissile material from the Daedalus's reactors probably made for one impressively nasty cleanup job.)

Hey, stop injecting reality into my headcanon!

[Seto Kaiba]

18 hours ago, JB0 said:

Not disputing the point, I'm sure you're right. But that is a really annoying addition to the setting, given the TV show has the Macross's bridge crew being horrified at the loss of life and explicitly calling the boats out as not designed to survive in a vacuum. Obviously, the easy answer is just "they were mistaken, and greatly relieved to be so", [...]

To be entirely fair, they never actually confirm that the crews perished.  They just jump to that conclusion based on neither of them responding over the radio.  Mind you, even if they only lost 10% of their crews that's still almost 1,000 people accidentally killed by their improvised plan... which may also account for their radio silence.

 

18 hours ago, JB0 said:

It DOES make the question of Navy versus Spacy ranks more than just academic, though. Though I suppose Global just said "My ship, my rules. You're all drafted into the Spacy, effective immediately."

It's an interesting conundrum with a couple possible outcomes...

If the bridge crews of the Daedalus and Prometheus survived the fold jump, I could see Bruno Global going in for treating the ship as a joint command environment where the UN Navy guys kept their affiliation and ranks while serving alongside the UN Spacy.  That'd give him more support in the administrative side of things with a few more senior officers kicking around who could be relied upon to keep their troops in line.

If the bridge crews perished, which might explain the radio silence, then I could see Bruno Global saying that since their command structure was essentially gone they'd be temporarily considered transferred to the Spacy pending a return to Earth.

Either way, the UN Forces seem to have a less rigid separation of branches of service so it probably wasn't much of an issue.  That they're all supposed to be speaking English in-universe could make things a bit hairy in the joint command environment though.

It raises another interesting question as to how they'd handle it if members of one branch of service were stationed aboard another's ship, like a Spacy fighter squadron based aboard a Navy carrier.  

 

18 hours ago, JB0 said:

Hey, stop injecting reality into my headcanon!

But then what will I do with the huge novelty syringe?  

[Bolt]

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

But then what will I do with the huge novelty syringe?  

Do the safety dance..?