"Ai Oboete Imasu Ka", in MacDelta

[BEAST]

Still watching the MD series for the first time. Not sure if I read the subtitles right. I did a search for this here but I did not see any specific mention of it. 

In Ep. 19, the arms dealer guy appears to say that UN Spacy used the "DYRL" theme song to help win Space War I, like in the movie. But earlier in the same ep., there is a clip of Minmay during the big battle singing "Ai Wa Nagareru", like in the series. 

In Macross canon up to this point, DYRL was not around during the war, right? It was made up for the in-universe movie years after the fact, right? Minmay actually sang AWN during the climax of the battle, per the series, correct? 

I have long dreamed about a live action SDFM movie, but I would prefer to have the DYRL song somehow preserved for the big battle. It's just that good.

MD now makes it sound like the song is somehow being retconned back into the actual war, and not just a part of the movie's song track. 

So does the DYRL song still have ancient Protoculture origins now? Or is it supposed to be a merely human melody that was made up for the big battle? 

Or is it possible that the melody still has some sort of ancient connection to PC? Might Exedol have, perhaps, found the tune and shared it with Minmay just before the big battle? (This would bypass the need for the additional canonization of the scene from the movie in which Hikaru and Misa rummaged through the Zentraedi city ruins.)

Or is the old arms dealer guy just mixing up history? Should prior canon still stand? 

Sorry if this has already been discussed. 

[JB0]

14 minutes ago, BEAST said:

Or is the old arms dealer guy just mixing up history? Should prior canon still stand? 

If I recall, arms dealer guy is wildly wrong on almost all counts, and has a version of events that violates all known canon for every installment of the franchise.

[Master Dex]

True about that character in general but the overall truth is canon when it comes to Kawamori works is not as straightforward as you'd think. The answer to which is true, TV or movie events is basically, yes. (this refers both to DYRL and movie versions of Frontier and Delta). 

More recently, and SK has said this also, it has been essentially decided both TV and movie versions are just different interpretations of the same "real" events we never actually saw. Thus differences are just artistic license and viewpoints. DYRL got the extra confusing bit of becoming an in universe movie (though there are hints that version itself might be different than what we saw) since SK did not decide on this overnight. 

So as far as it matters the DYRL song is canon, it happened, even though we don't see it in the show which is for all intents and purposes more accurate in historical depiction. The real history is somewhere in between. 

[Aries Turner]

Also, both the series and the movie are docudramas in-universe. The guy is an arms dealer and is talking about history. That is like your average sales guy talking about viking invasions just by seeing the Vikings series.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, BEAST said:

Still watching the MD series for the first time.

Jeez... my sympathies.

 

1 hour ago, BEAST said:

In Macross canon [...]

OK, let's stop there for a moment.

"Canon" is a word that's rather difficult to apply to the main Macross continuity at times.  Kawamori's view of canon is that there isn't one.  He's variously attempted to explain this as either each Macross series being a dramatization of a "true" history we haven't seen or that each Macross title is a stand-alone story with a shared broad strokes-only history.  In more practical terms, it's Kawamori's way of not landing Macross in the continuity lockdown mess that Gundam has been in for what feels like forever and a way to dismiss questions about continuity out of hand in interviews.

Whether anyone else involved in the running of the Macross franchise actually got that particular memo is unclear, as an awful lot of Macross stuff made after that pronouncement seems to ignore it completely.  That kind of loosey-goosey policy would make it rather difficult to sell things like art books or write spinoff materials.  It's worth noting that this is a relatively recent decision of Kawamori's, and he's previously expressed somewhat firmer ideas about continuity that line up with what's still being done in official publications.

 

1 hour ago, BEAST said:

In Ep. 19, the arms dealer guy appears to say that UN Spacy used the "DYRL" theme song to help win Space War I, like in the movie. But earlier in the same ep., there is a clip of Minmay during the big battle singing "Ai Wa Nagareru", like in the series. 

... a word to the wise, save yourself a LOT of frustration and don't take ANYTHING Berger Stone says seriously.

It's hard to tell who exactly is to blame for this one, really.  On the one hand, Berger Stone is an extremely shady character and the very picture of an unreliable narrator with a very obvious agenda when it comes to manipulating Xaos.  On the other, Macross Delta's writing is spectacularly sloppy garbage throughout the show's second half.  Berger spins some very elaborate yarns that contain some very obvious contradictions to those who pay attention.  Our protagonists, however, are apparently not sharp enough to notice the parts of Berger's story that don't line up, so he manipulates them fairly easily and seems to be having a lot of fun doing it.  (The bit about music as a weapon appears to be something of a pet project of the Epsilon Foundation's, as they were actively trying to weaponize fold songs in the Macross Delta gaiden manga.)

 

1 hour ago, BEAST said:

In Macross canon up to this point, DYRL was not around during the war, right? It was made up for the in-universe movie years after the fact, right? Minmay actually sang AWN during the climax of the battle, per the series, correct? 

That's a very definite maybe.

Starting from Macross II, DYRL? has been gradually displacing the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross both aesthetically and narratively.  Macross II was also the first sequel that cut a dash between the two versions of the First Space War, more in line with the novelization of DYRL?.  If you look carefully, you'll notice both Macross 7 and Macross Frontier used the DYRL? version instead of the TV version.

One of the things that came in with Macross Plus and Macross 7 was the view that the series continuity was the more correct version but that DYRL? visual aesthetics and other parts of it were also "true".  For instance, the TV and Movie VF-1s were both used during the war with the TV version being the VF-1 from the earliest production blocks and the one used for the movie being a block update introduced shortly after the war started.  Another example was that Exsedol's appearance in the TV and Movie versions were both true... the TV version was his miclone appearance with his role-specific genetic mods stripped out and the movie version was his true giant appearance.  This same philosophy of "TV for timeline, Movie for aesthetic" seems to have gotten carried over to subsequent titles as well.  Macross Frontier's prequel Macross the Ride generally follows the TV version of events but they also explicitly assert the existence of the YF-29.  (If you look carefully, you'll notice there's a BAD model of the TV version SDF-1 Macross on Ernest Johnson's desk.)

That said, it should be remembered that we're basically watching Berger Stone's PowerPoint presentation and not an actual depiction of events, so his choice of soundtrack may be biased by his personal tastes or whatever dramatization of Lynn Minmay's life he thought the crew would've seen most recently.  The battle itself did go on for many hours, so there is the distinct possibility Minmay sang most or all of her repertoire during it.

[TehPW]

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

True about that character in general but the overall truth is canon when it comes to Kawamori works is not as straightforward as you'd think. The answer to which is true, TV or movie events is basically, yes. (this refers both to DYRL and movie versions of Frontier and Delta). 

More recently, and SK has said this also, it has been essentially decided both TV and movie versions are just different interpretations of the same "real" events we never actually saw. Thus differences are just artistic license and viewpoints. DYRL got the extra confusing bit of becoming an in universe movie (though there are hints that version itself might be different than what we saw) since SK did not decide on this overnight. 

So as far as it matters the DYRL song is canon, it happened, even though we don't see it in the show which is for all intents and purposes more accurate in historical depiction. The real history is somewhere in between. 

Sounds like a excuse for a soft or hard reboot... certainly would be a excuse to reprint old toys to support such an endeavor. I would be shocked if, when HG finally loses the license, TPTB declare a DYRL 2.0 coming to theaters near you...

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, TehPW said:

Sounds like a excuse for a soft or hard reboot... certainly would be a excuse to reprint old toys to support such an endeavor. I would be shocked if, when HG finally loses the license, TPTB declare a DYRL 2.0 coming to theaters near you...

The bit about the in-universe version of DYRL being different from what audiences saw is more in reference to what we see in terms of excerpts from the film that appeared in Macross 7... they showed clips from the in-universe version of the movie to the cast of Lynn Minmay Story that included things like a movie version of Max and Milia's wedding.

[Lolicon]

The only 100% true statement about Macross canon is that Macross II is not part of it. 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, Lolicon said:

The only 100% true statement about Macross canon is that Macross II is not part of it. 

Not according to Kawamori. 

[JB0]

The only 100% true statement about Macross canon is that it exists.

...

Well, 70% true, anyways.

Edited April 12, 2019 by JB0

[Save]

21 hours ago, BEAST said:

Still watching the MD series for the first time. Not sure if I read the subtitles right. I did a search for this here but I did not see any specific mention of it.

Before I go reading through all the replies, which are you watching, the official releases that included Eng subs, or by-ear fan subs?

[BEAST]

On 4/12/2019 at 4:16 AM, Save said:

Before I go reading through all the replies, which are you watching, the official releases that included Eng subs, or by-ear fan subs?

Not sure which versions. They are YT versions from different up loaders. Not sure which is official. 

I think one of the versions is very colloquial, loose, and trendy in its translated sub. In the scene where Messer critiques all of his pilots and then leaves, Chuck says that "Grim Reaper be reapin'!" That struck me as an extremely American slang way of translating. But I had no way of knowing if it was faithful to the way Chuck speaks Japanese or if it demonstrated some sort of artifact being interpolated into the story by the translator. 

Either way, Ep. 19 clearly shows both AWN and DYRL being sung in Berger's speech. In the second, last, time he mentions the war, he says that they used DYRL to win, as Minmay sings the song in the background. 

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, BEAST said:

Not sure which versions. They are YT versions from different up loaders. Not sure which is official. 

I think one of the versions is very colloquial, loose, and trendy in its translated sub. In the scene where Messer critiques all of his pilots and then leaves, Chuck says that "Grim Reaper be reapin'!" That struck me as an extremely American slang way of translating. But I had no way of knowing if it was faithful to the way Chuck speaks Japanese or if it demonstrated some sort of artifact being interpolated into the story by the translator. 

Either way, Ep. 19 clearly shows both AWN and DYRL being sung in Berger's speech. In the second, last, time he mentions the war, he says that they used DYRL to win, as Minmay sings the song in the background. 

That's most likely the GG fansubs. They were very quick and dirty so they could get them out fast, and took a ton of liberties. You won't see the official subs online much (yes some horrible person probably ripped them but it's far less legal). 

[BEAST]

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

That's most likely the GG fansubs. They were very quick and dirty so they could get them out fast, and took a ton of liberties. You won't see the official subs online much (yes some horrible person probably ripped them but it's far less legal). 

Well at least they're not Robotech or Clash of the Bionoids! 

[Chronocidal]

If anything, the events in Delta made me think that the Ai Oboete Imasu Ka was very likely used in the actual war, just from the effects it had... though again, this is assuming Delta isn't just another dramatization of actual events, and they just used the song as a nostalgia hook.

Ignoring for the moment the idea that it seemed the Protoculture spoke Japanese for the first line, the rest of the song Mikumo sang was entirely different, and the implications for the song itself are that the first line of the song must have sounded like some sort of "ATTENTION: ORDERS INCOMING!" message for the Zentraedi.  They keep hinting that the Protoculture lived and breathed music, so sung battle commands would be entirely fitting.

In the meta sense, of being "in-universe" though.. let's be real here.  None of the songs we've ever heard in any Macross series would be the "actual" song that stopped the war.  If it actually had that much of an impact on the Zentraedi population, the song itself would have to be heavily guarded information.  You don't just go broadcasting weaponized music on the radio any more than you would broadcast recipes for enriched plutonium on the Discovery channel.  

Frankly speaking.. the evolution of the events of SWI sound fairly realistic, as if new things were revealed over time.  Consider the idea that Minmay was an actual singer recruited to sing a "song" unearthed from the databanks in the SDF-1, or from the Protoculture city.  She's not going to be performing on a stage during battle, because that's ridiculous.  They're either going to record her voice and weaponize the broadcast, or broadcast it through a tightly focused transmission directly at the enemy fleet, while she sings in a secure environment.

Now, what headline would that give you?  "Lynn Minmay's singing turned the tide of the battle!"  Obviously, the mental image is her singing from the bridge while the ship charges into battle.  So that's what the SDFM series depicted.

By the time DYRL comes along, it's been leaked to the public that "Oh, yeah, she was actually singing some secret song unearthed from Protoculture history."    The producers go, "Score!  Minmay, we've got a new single for you to record!"  So they make up the story about putting human words to the alien music, and write a new song that fits, because there's no way the actual broadcast is ever going to be declassified.

I'd say the odds are pretty good that whatever "song" actually won the war may have been a garbled mess of tones more akin to the communication scene from Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and Minmay just happened to have the vocal range to pull it off.  We've just never seen the actual events, because every Macross series is an in-universe dramatization.  That's just my theorizing on the whole "there is no canon" thing though.  

Series-wise though.. I think in-universe, SDFM and DYRL essentially are similar to, respectively, Band of Brothers, and Saving Private Ryan.  One is a serial dramatization of the period surrounding the war, while the other is a more focused one-shot about events near the end.

Also, the idea of there being different versions of DYRL make perfect sense in today's creative environment.  Obviously, the scenes not seen in the DYRL movie came from a Directors Cut, or a later reboot.  

Edited April 18, 2019 by Chronocidal

[Aries Turner]

1 hour ago, Chronocidal said:

the scenes not seen in the DYRL movie came from a Directors Cut,

Bingo!

...or the Collector's Edition, or Definite Compilation, or Remastered Full Cut, or Blade Runner the way you really, really, really wanted it to happen.

Max and Miria wedding macronized (unseen scene), or battling in Q-Rau, seems a propaganda effort to more readily accept Zentran culture also. Distrust may be high even behind the scenes, like blacksplotation overcompensating or depicting a state of acceptance that just isn't there. Klan-Klan, Veffidas, Guld, Warera, Ruri and Konda ( ) being your average asian latino black Philip Michael Thomas in the 80's series equivalent.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Aries Turner
Bit about Max and Miria.

[sketchley]

3 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

Bingo!

...or the Collector's Edition, or Definite Compilation, or Remastered Full Cut, or Blade Runner the way you really, really, really wanted it to happen.  (...)

Technically, the TV series version is an in-universe filmed TV show, and the movie the same.

VFMF: VF-1 Valkyrie Space Wings goes a step further, and claims that the 2036 DYRL is actually a sequel to a 2012 (or 2013) released movie!

[Mazinger]

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Technically, the TV series version is an in-universe filmed TV show, and the movie the same.

Uh, say what now? I knew about DYRL, but SDF Macross too? 

Hmm, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[Master Dex]

It's the modern take by Kawamori these days, his views evolve often. Basically everything you see in Macross is a dramatization of unseen 'real' events which may or may not be entirely the same, as the TV series and the movies all portray them a bit differently.

This is why later stuff seems to prefer the aesthetic from DYRL, but calls back to the events from SDFM more often. Maybe that is more how the real events were, or maybe not as the show referencing them is also dramatized itself. Did a real guy flying a VF by pushing controls with an acoustic guitar really sing harmonies with space whales? Doesn't sound likely... but it makes a great story, lol.

[Seto Kaiba]

37 minutes ago, Mazinger said:

Uh, say what now? I knew about DYRL, but SDF Macross too? 

Hmm, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

It's an excuse Kawamori came up with around the time Frontier came out... he claims all Macross shows are dramatizations of a "true" history, which is his way of getting out of answering questions about continuity.  It's not something the people working on Macross seem to take seriously... or acknowledge at all.

What @sketchley is referring to is something said in a Master File book about the 2031 in-universe verson of Do You Remember Love? being a sequel to another in-universe film from the 2010s.  Of course, since it's Master File, it's not official anyway.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[Chronocidal]

I mean, it's entirely fitting.  We already re-film everything every few years or so.  Why should the Macross universe be any different?  

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

I mean, it's entirely fitting.  We already re-film everything every few years or so.  Why should the Macross universe be any different?  

That there'd be in-universe docu-dramas about events like the First Space War and Minmay's role in it is only logical.  

What's dumb as hell is a director saying there is no continuity because he can't be arsed to answer questions about it.   

While reboots are a thing, you don't see many directors trying to pretend that sequels are unrelated to each other like that.  That's just George Lucas levels of stupid.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[BEAST]

Well it is frustrating to keep reading an implied "based on true events" tag line to these programs, but never be able to get at the true events, themselves. It can sometimes convey the sense that something is fishy or fake, but that much is being swept under the rug by an effective carnival barker. Besides, some of us like documentaries even more than artistically-licensed, indulgent dramatizations.

I choose to stick with the first version of events, unless a retelling contradicts it and provides both a satisfying, coherent explanation why it is contradictory and also why the first version got it so wrong.

Someone (?) found the DYRL music notes, and Minmei/crew made up words and a full instrumental arrangement based upon them. And that was enough to speak to some faded, buried emotions within the hearts of the Zentraedi during the war. 

[Bolt]

Between the series and movies of Macross,there always seems to be some tweaks. Why break from tradition at this point? 

Considering how Kawamori sticks to his guns on certain points, his explanation isn’t going to change either. 

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, BEAST said:

I choose to stick with the first version of events, unless a retelling contradicts it and provides both a satisfying, coherent explanation why it is contradictory and also why the first version got it so wrong.

For continuity purposes, the official timelines usually favor the series versions over the movies but movie-specific designs and so on often end up also existing but in a slightly different context as explained previously.

Of course, it's worth remembering that what Berger Stone is showing is not an authentic depiction of the history even in-series... it's his Powerpoint deck, which is probably populated in no small amount by stuff from the various docu-dramas about Minmay from the last fifty years.

 

Quote

Someone (?) found the DYRL music notes, and Minmei/crew made up words and a full instrumental arrangement based upon them. And that was enough to speak to some faded, buried emotions within the hearts of the Zentraedi during the war. 

As often as sequels harp on DYRL having been a Protoculture love song, it's likely that some events from the DYRL version occurred like Boddole Zer having a copy of the sheet music for DYRL and wanting to weaponize it.

 

Quote

Considering how Kawamori sticks to his guns on certain points, his explanation isn’t going to change either. 

But Kawamori came to this view relatively recently... previously he'd supported a firmer view of continuity.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

22 hours ago, Mazinger said:

Uh, say what now? I knew about DYRL, but SDF Macross too? 

Hmm, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

As he's said it more than a handful of times, you'll have to peruse my translations for specific instances: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/

(Most likely one of the interviews in the Great Mechanics section).

Check out the VFMF section for the unofficial "DYRL is a sequel" nonsense.

[Tochiro]

22 hours ago, Mazinger said:

Uh, say what now? I knew about DYRL, but SDF Macross too? 

Hmm, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

It’s been his official policy on the franchise as a whole for 21 years now, meaning that it predates even Zero. 

And this is only one translated published account. I suspect it dates back even further but people didn’t ask, given that canon is not something the Japanese tend to put as high a value on as the West when it comes to fiction (a trend that dates back to the late 70’s).

TLDL: everything is fictional meaning that it can exist within and outside of concepts of canon simultaneously, allowing Kawamori maximum creative freedom. Knowing how he works, I suspect that he came up with this idea to keep himself motivated and creative and may well not have returned to Macross without it  

In a way it isn’t dissimilar to the stance Cameron has adopted with regards to the next 4 Avatar films that are currently in various stages of planning and production  

http://www.decultureshock.com/shoji-kawamori-on-what-is-and-what-is-not-canon/

[Mazinger]

Well then, this certainly seems to have become the pattern amongst franchise creators.

Certainly being applied over in Star Trek and Wars, my beloved Capcom fighting games, and certainly anything with a superhero in it.

 

[BEAST]

On 4/18/2019 at 10:58 PM, Mazinger said:

Uh, say what now? I knew about DYRL, but SDF Macross too? 

Hmm, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

WARNING: Super long message incoming!!!

When I Googled "Macross canon", it was eye-opening, because of how much material exists showing us how little SK actually cares for canon or continuity. I found this 2013 blog post, citing transcribed interviews with SK <link>, and clicked through to check out its original sources. What follows are key words from SK himself, with some of my own commentary. 

Quote

"Consider real history. Many different stories have been created based on the same historical facts, haven't they? For example, there are many stories about World War II. It's the same thing with Macross. The real Macross is out there, somewhere. If I tell the story in the length of a TV series, it looks one way, and if I tell it as a movie-length story, it's organized another way" (1999 AOL blog post, citing a 1995 Animerica interview).

SK implied that SDFM was a "story" "based on" in-universe historical facts, and a "story" told through a TV series--as opposed to the "historical facts" and the "real Macross", themselves. He drew a distinction between SDFM TV and Macross reality.

Quote

"They are all fictional. They're all based on a war that actually took place, but they are all different. [...]

"OK, so in the timeline you have a movie called DYRL that was released, does that mean that the TV series is the true story?"

"Well, you have the SDF-1 that supposedly fell from the sky, and then a story was made about the subsequent history and was televised. Then that became a movie. Then later, there was a Macross 7 incident, and a TV series was made about that. That's basically how I see it. [...]

"Its not just the movie, they are ALL works of fiction. [...] None of them are real. [...]

"The real truth is somewhere else. They studied the history and made the fiction after the fact. While reasoning the facts, they have to make many compromises, like the limitations of a TV format, like the fact they have to sell toys, and so they have to adapt the story that way" (2009 MW post, transcribing a Macross 7 Fun Net 1998 interview).

SK says "all" of the Macross iterations have been "fictional" "stories", based upon an in-universe actual war. The TV series is "a story made about the [...] history" subsequent to the arrival of the ASS-1 and then televised. Now, the SDFM TV series was the first story, and the one most closely linked to the actual events, chronologically. But he still says that it is a "fiction after the fact", not "history", and that it is "different" from the "war that actually took place", in a different place from the "real truth", and a "limited" "adapted" "compromise" of "the facts". So once again, he drew a distinction.

-----

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

[MODERATORS: This is an unnecessary, unwanted quote box. Please fix this broken quote.

Please remove the "SK says" paragraph immediately following after this.

The next valid text should be the quote for Seto Kaiba below.]

SK says "all" of the Macross iterations have been "fictional" "stories", based upon an in-universe actual war: a "story made about the [...] history" subsequent to the arrival of the ASS-1. Now, the SDFM TV series was the first, and most closely linked to the actual events, chronologically. But he still says that it is "different" from the actual war, in a different place from the "real truth", and a "limited" "adapted" "compromise" of "the facts". So once again, he drew the distinction.

-----

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

But Kawamori came to this view relatively recently... previously he'd supported a firmer view of continuity.

Do you have sources for that?

The sources that I can drum up all indicate that SK has embraced the non-canon viewpoint since at least 1998, purportedly back as far as 1995, and likely even before Macross began. 

1998 was over 20 years ago. That was before Macross Zero. And 1995, 24 years ago, was right after Macross Plus/Macross 7. How is that "relatively recent"? 

The 1995 interview has some other relevant tidbits as to what Kawamori's central tenet has really been, all this time. Please forgive me for doing a hatchet job on the original transcript, but I'm going to re-sequence quotes from it in order to try to make the point more clear. 

"Actually, I got to know them [other famous animators] in high school and college through a science fiction convention called Kuri-Con. [...] The people around me were obsessed with science fiction, so I may have been turned off to some aspects of it. Maybe, in one part of my mind, I'd already made the decision not to become an otaku ("hardcore fan")."

This sounds as if, as much as SK clearly loves the intricate technical details of mecha, he never wanted to be seen as a geek or nerd regarding sci-fi story lore. (Recall the 1986 Saturday Night Live skit with Captain Kirk: "Get a Life!") So does he similarly loathe the notion of being hidebound by sci-fi story canon? 

"I've always thought of TechnoPolice 21C as one of the trailblazers for original animation.
It was supposed to be a theatrical release, but production problems wouldn't allow that. There were [...] other projects before Macross, and I was sort of involved with all three projects. And it just happened that the Macross idea was approved."

SK was working on a bunch of different shows at the same time in 1981-82. (I have been able to track down mentions of Technopolice, Genocidas, Mobile Suit Gundam, and Ulysses-31, in addition to SDFM.) Macross just happened to be the one that got our attention, the most. We fans need to be careful that we don't assign greater personal significance of the franchise to SK than what he himself assigned to it. SDFM happened in 1982-83, and then he was ready to move on.

Now, he was asked to stay on for the 1984 DYRL film, but notice how much it differs from the TV show. It is pretty clear that SK was not interested in rehashing the exact same story. He wanted to tell a new, different one. And he didn't really care that it contradicted the old one. 

1987's Flashback 2012 both dramatized a previously mentioned but unseen event, Minmay's departure for S. Ataria Island; and continued where DYRL left off, with the departure of the Megaroad-1 from Earth. But this entire installment was only a half-hour long, and features maybe 10 minutes of new material, at that. 6 years after his first Macross design work, SK was on the way out. Macross was in his rear view mirror. Or so he hoped... 

"The Macross compilation video Flashback 2021 gives hints about Minmei and Misa's future. Is there any chance you'll animate a continuation of that story?
I don't really want to. I've already used Minmei, Misa, and Hikaru in the TV series, and they show up again in the feature version, as well. If they show up for the third time in another movie, you'll be sick of them, too. It won't be a fresh story." 

He didn't really want to continue the same story. STAMP.

He even goes so far as to actually project onto fans his feeling of being "sick" of revisiting character storylines from the past. That is not the mindset of someone who cherishes continuity and canon. No, rather, SK was embracing new, fresh stories. He wanted to move forward, without being held back by the past. 

"In Macross II, the mothership gets destroyed. What happens after that?
I haven't watched Macross II. [Laughs] So, when it comes to Macross II, "No comment." If I watch it, I know I'll want to comment on it, y'know...?

"Why weren't you involved in Macross II...?
Back then, I had sworn off making sequels. I had my reasons at the time. [Laughs]" 

So SK did not like the idea of continuing SDFM any further. He didn't like sequels. DYRL and FB2012 were done and long gone. Fast forward to 1992, and Macross was "so last decade" (1982). 

"Previously, you've said that you won't make any sequels. So why are you coming back to Macross now?
In the current animation market, it's getting harder and harder for an original project to be approved. A project has to be based on an already-popular story to stand a chance. Of course, if something's got the name Macross attached to it, it stands to reason that the chances of approval are very high. Even better, the project can be done the way I want it to be done. In the case of Macross Plus, I decided to go with the Macross name and make the series I wanted to make."

This almost sounds like a confession of a cynical attitude towards television and Anime. Even as he said that he wanted to tell a fresh new story, SK said he effectively couldn't. The market and TPTB wouldn't let him. He couldn't do what he really wanted to do.

So he made a Macross show instead. Well, he ostensibly slapped the Macross skin on it, but then, despite that, he went and made the show that he really wanted to make. That it had the UN Spacy kite on its wings was mere coincidence, or circumstance. 

"I may not do a sequel about the main characters, but a supporting character might get featured, or a side-story-kind-of-sequel might be a possibility. [...] 

"In Macross 7, Max and Miria show up. Why?
I didn't want to use Minmei and Misa and Hikaru, as I mentioned before, but I did want to portray the supporting characters more."

He said that, but notice: he both designed for and directed Macross Plus, while he only designed for Macross 7. If he was so keen on the idea of continuing the story with the familiar characters, like he says, then why didn't he direct that show?

Apparently he picked the former, because as he said, he preferred to work on the fresh new story, with all new characters and plot. 

"Also, when I went to the United States, I talked to many people and they all liked Max. Perhaps Americans like "genius pilots" better than Japanese do...? I thought that kind of popularity might prove valuable later down the line, and in a certain sense, it has. You could say the idea to bring Max and Miria back (in Macross 7) was an idea that was born during a visit to the US."

The inclusion of those older characters was apparently in some small way SK's attempt to make Macross 7 appealing to a US audience. 

Oh, the irony!

At any rate, it appears to show that Max & Miria were more likely tokens featured for others' amusement, rather than his own. Canonicity and continuity are not near and dear to SK's heart. 

"Is there anything you'd like to remake if you had the opportunity?
That would be everything. [Laughs] But I think about the future, for example, with Macross, on which I've worked for so long. In that sense, I'm glad I've been able to work on a variety of things, and what's coming may be more interesting than what's transpired."

Here, while SK does acknowledge that he was happy with his past Macross work, he also--jokingly--says that he would like to remake it. This might at first seem to be inconsistent with and contradictory to what he has said previously (namely, that he wanted to move on to new things). But notice: even if he revisits old aspects of Macross, he says that what he envisions might be "more interesting than what's transpired." More interesting than the past, how? How would he change a retro-Macross for the better?

Regardless, the most relevant thing to notice is that SK openly declares that he would make changes if he were to ever redo past elements of Macross. He doesn't promise to employ a slavish, painstaking effort to be faithful to the source material. His primary interest is in doing something "more interesting" than that. 

"Whatever I want to do, the cost of labor is rising, and it's becoming more difficult to make an original story. [...] 

There are aspiring animators and mecha designers abroad---do you have any advice for these people?
If I have any advice, it's that I think originality is becoming rare worldwide, so you should aspire to be original."

There he goes again, chanting a familiar mantra. I imagine if Kawamori were ever a male cheerleader, he might say, "Be...inventive, Be, Be...inventive!" 

-----

And then there is this 2015 <Forbes article>. Again, please forgive me for slicing up the original text and rearranging the pieces, but it is done for the purpose of hammering home the point that SK has always been this way. 

Early on, he says that his artwork began with designs inspired by the Space Battleship Yamato TV show, and then in college, with designs of automobiles and real world spacecraft. I imagine that this sort of derivative work was heavily restricted to the rules, precedents, and norms manifest in what came before. And that is very confining and unpleasant to a creative, artistic type of person. 

At any rate, SK's period of confinement was not destined to continue for long. He began working for Studio Nue in his freshman year, and his design work there opened his eyes to new, personally more interesting possibilities:

"I also came to realise that in animation I could still design those kinds of spaceships, as well as anything else I thought was interesting. That in itself was a pivotal moment for me I think.”

Key words there: "anything else I thought was interesting." 

Since that time, SK has often said that a major reason for his leaving real world spacecraft design behind was the lack of a meaningful Japanese space program at the time. I do not mean to question SK's integrity by challenging that notion.

But I cannot help but hypothesize that he must not have only been dissuaded away from realistic space designs, but also toward more fanciful ones. This was not only a more practical and lucrative avenue for him as a young man, but also a more attractive avenue for him as the creative type.

 “The aspect of transformation, for me anyway, has always been about trying to pursue a sense of originality. There are many things in the world that look good or are already stylish, but once the mecha transforms, the functions of the engines and seats for instance would be lost. In addition, external parts often have to be added to make the mecha transform. When I designed VF-1 Valkyrie 35 years ago, mecha rarely did it all in one self-contained process.”

“Since it didn’t really exist like that back in the day, once it could be achieved then that’s something that I thought would be original. [...] 

“So that’s a big drive for me and my work.”

SK valued perfect transformation not just in a toy, but in his Anime mecha designs as well. And he says that this value dovetails with his desire to be different from others who have come before, and to have original elements that set his designs apart from those of others. 

But SK was not about to make something fanciful and bizarre, simply in the name of looking fanciful and bizarre. He had been an aspiring real world engineering major at one point, after all. He perceived a need for realistic elements in mecha design, and he was just the person to fulfill that need:

“In the world of animation, there are often instances where there are vehicles that are impossible to take flight but are somehow still able to go airborne. However, as I was once someone who wanted to become a mechanical engineer, I always want to approach these things with a greater degree of realism. [...] 

“Though back then it was still very new and robots didn’t have much realism behind them, which made them not very believable. In the case of Macross though, we had airplanes that transformed specifically to fight giants. In that sense we had an internal logic that likely made sense to people. I believe it was this that made the mecha acceptable to Westerners who think logically.”

Notice the reasons he gives for why he loved the designs of the following aerospace vehicles, from both history and sci-fi television. He does not pick the 10th or 20th variant of some long running line of aircraft, but rather, radical designs that departed far from those of their contemporaries:

“In terms of other designs I like, the XB-70 Valkyrie is genius. As it is very innovative and has a very clear practical use but at the same time looks unique. I also really like the Thunderbird 2, both the character of its body and the creativity used to make it. It really is fantastic.”

SK uses terms like "genius", "very innovative", "unique", "creativity", and "fantastic".

These are his guiding principles. These are his goal statements. These make up his rubric for whatever projects he works on:

“In terms of the writing process, I approach it as whether I could make something original. Something that hasn’t been seen in a prior animated work, film or novel. In short, a work that hasn’t really been done before. So when I approach the story, the process may not be all that different from writing, directing and designing mecha; as each part is often connected with the other. [...]

“Generally, I like to try and find a new way of telling a story. A new angle.”

Concepts such as "canon", "continuity", or the like don't show up anywhere in there. 

“Regarding my process as a director [specifically of 1984's DYRL], no-one really taught me how I should do it so I’ve approached it from the point of view of a designer. [...] Therefore, I decided to also apply my design method to my direction work. [...] Again, using the method of doing something that hasn’t really been done before as well as always seeking for originality are very important.”

Creative, innovative, unique, original. Always. 

But never canon, continuity, consistency.

So, not surprisingly, the movie flew right off the rails away from the TV show in terms of many of the details. Because that's how SK rolls. That's how he has always rolled, almost since the beginning. 

"In the early design stages for the transformable mecha, the aircraft was looking a bit too toy like. [... T]he toy company at that time thought that [this design wouldn't] really sell and that was yet another barrier to overcome." 

"[... S]o I really felt I had to focus on this seriously. [...] That meant we had an all-new design with three modes.

“When the toy company saw the prototype they agreed to the design and series plan on the spot.”

SK focused on an "all-new" design for the Valkyrie, and he credited that for being approved by the tie-in toy company at the time. 

"Normally, in battle orientated stories the strength of the respective forces and weapons resolves in a final conflict. That’s pretty standard really, so [instead of that] I thought that I could use the setting of the Zentradi having no culture of their own. Whereas Minmay’s role was a singer and that could act as a form of culture shock to a cultureless enemy.

“Therefore, I eventually had the idea to end the great space war by the power of the song and its resultant culture shock. This solution was original I thought, maybe even a world first. Never seen before in animation, movies or even novels.”

Rather than doing what was "normal" or "pretty standard really", SK wanted to end the great war of SDFM in an "original", "world first", "never seen before" manner: "Yak deculture!"

But alas, that's not what actually happened, in either the show or the film. In both formats, Minmay's song helped to unite the forces of Earth and some of the Zentraedi, but Bodolzaa was killed to end the war. (Network or producer interference? Either way, SK's intent fits the pattern.) 

However, having just killed Bodolzaa off with the Macross mothership in the 1983 TV finale, in the name of still doing things somehow differently, in the name of being more interesting than what just came right before, SK changed the ending up in the 1984 movie by having the big bad killed by Hikaru in his VF-1S Super Valkyrie.

And he makes sure to tell us of the many other Anime and video game projects that he has worked on besides the official Macross programs, as well as whatever innovations he was responsible for introducing within them. 

The interview goes on to mention other  productions that SK feels copied Macross elements, and points out that he has not always received due credit for them. He wants credit as the originator and creator. He is entitled to it. 

The issue of who exactly gets to modify the Macross saga itself is another recurring one. SK did not like it when Harmony Gold made changes to the story in its Robotech TV retelling of the Macross space war:

“When it comes to Robotech, it’s difficult to comment. [... T]his was an opportunity for our work to be shown to the world and for that I am thankful. However, because the partial change in the story was made without approval from us, the original authors, it still produces an uncomfortable feeling after all these years.”

Change to the story alone, it would seem, is not good in itself. SK appears to feel that he needs to be the one to author or at least co-sign it.

He also laments that his involvement was never requested for any of the stillborn Macross live-action adaptation projects that have come before.

“This [2015 Warner Bros. project] isn’t the first time a live action movie like this has been conceived either and over the years I’ve heard of multiple attempts, though during this time they’ve never contacted me for any of them.

“As the original creator of Macross I do find that quite disappointing. I should be at least contacted really."

By now it should be clear that SK cries not for changes to the original Macross storyline. He has made a lot of them, himself. Likely what he is really most sensitive to here is whatever changes that might be made without his approval. He wants to be the privileged creative re-inventor. He wants the artistic prerogative to make changes to the material. The bottom line for SK appears not to be faithfulness to any existing standard. It appears to simply be his ego as an artist, both in terms of maintaining creative control and in receiving credit.

I apologize if any of this has come across as overly harsh. This was not meant as a hit piece against Kawamori. It is simply a report on what appears to be prevailing pattern regarding these matters, as revealed by pertinent interviews with the man himself, based on his own words. If I have made any gross errors, I welcome constructive criticism about such, and I will endeavor to correct this essay accordingly. 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by BEAST
Broken quote tags

[Aries Turner]

It is like Zero.

We have both the ADR-03 and VF-0 and both look more advanced than later -04 series destroids and VF-1, because SK said ALREADY he would do things differently, make it better because he have developed his technique.

Enter canon-conscious, series polishing people: 'Lets make ADR-03 and VF-0 engines not OTEC based and ADR-03 weapons GAU-12 of AV-8B fame. Lets make the VF-0 an unconstrained, bigger prototype, where cost per unit is not a concern. Lets make it a testbed for technologies to be introduced later in the VF-1 line when space and cost requirements drop to be integrated seamlessly. OK, people, canon is safe again.'

But then Frontier happens and SK liked the ADR-03 so much he included it yet again.

Enter canon polishing people: 'O-K... Frontier are somewhat more obsessed with preserving culture the most, but that Lancia Delta Integrale is in fact more modern internally than anything seen in Macross 7. So Cheyenne 2 and Worker integrate more advanced engines than anything -04 and -07 series destroids ever mounted, for better SWAG energy conversion armor, better resilience, more firepower and STILL just being glorified Patroid units like those used in Macross-7. Even if resembling past military units, these are civil protection units and thus not reach military grade protection or weaponry of VFs (I am cheating here, as the series included a Macross attack.). Canon is safe again, people. Wait. You really mean it when saying you would tweak Nora's SV-51 into VF-27 Lucifer? Pretty please, be joking.'

But then Delta happens and management reuses Cheyenne 2 yet again in a clearly military role.

Enter fatigued canon polishing people: 'Okey Dokey, we are screwed. Make this we are in a Zola like undeveloped sector using sub-par technology, that asked Frontier for cheapo rent-a-Destroid units and something about as capable as VT-1C construction Valkyrie, without transformation or high-speed capabilities, because a worker shouldn't have Lamborghini Coupe capabilities in their Lamborghini Caterpillar. Wait, Hayate would use one to skate and dance? Damn! OK, I resign! Damn you, people!'

Edited April 20, 2019 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

18 hours ago, BEAST said:

WARNING: Super long message incoming!!!

Please, please, please be more careful with your quote tags... this is very difficult  to read.

 

18 hours ago, BEAST said:

Do you have sources for that?

The sources that I can drum up all indicate that SK has embraced the non-canon viewpoint since at least 1998, purportedly back as far as 1995, and likely even before Macross began. 

The first most of us heard of it was in the 25th anniversary events, where Kawamori torpedoed the idea that Macross II was not an equal partner in the franchise by declaring that all of the Macross shows were islands unto themselves.

If he held that view earlier than that point, that's fine... it only really changes the length of time he's been horrifically inconsistent about applying it and how long the rest of Macross's creative staff have been studiously ignoring it.

 

18 hours ago, BEAST said:

1987's Flashback 2012 both dramatized a previously mentioned but unseen event, Minmay's departure for S. Ataria Island; and continued where DYRL left off, with the departure of the Megaroad-1 from Earth. 

This is a popular misconception.  Macross: Flash Back 2012 is the epilogue for the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series. 

Specifically, the launch of the SDF-2 Megaroad-01 was originally planned for the final episode of the TV series but was cut in the storyboard phase due to runtime constraints.  When Kawamori returned to Macross for '94's Macross Plus and Macross 7, that was when we started seeing him explain that the DYRL? aesthetics co-existed alongside those of the original TV series, that the SDF-1 Macross had been rebuilt to the DYRL? spec after Quamzin's suicide attack in Ep36 (which remains the official explanation for it to this day).  Quite a bit gets said on that note in This is Animation: Macross Plus, which goes well out of its way to explain how the TV and Movie VF-1s existed side-by-side in the series.

 

18 hours ago, BEAST said:

Canonicity and continuity are not near and dear to SK's heart. 

True, but as I've noted previously the rest of Macross's creative staff doesn't seem to be onboard with his views there.

If anything, the number of explicit callbacks in Macross has only increased with time.  

If you go digging into Macross Delta's setting, for instance, you'll find it depends heavily on callbacks to Macross 7, Macross Dynamite 7, Macross VF-X2, and Macross Frontier, with a smattering of Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy thrown in and a dash of Macross the Ride added for the novelization.

Macross the Ride was made under Kawamori's supervision and its story was built heavily on callbacks to Macross 7 and Macross VF-X2, garnished liberally with calls forward to the Macross Frontier story and a few references to the original series and Zero.

 

 

7 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

But then Frontier happens and SK liked the ADR-03 so much he included it yet again.

As far as I've heard, that was a cost save... it was cheaper and easier to reuse existing CG models leftover from Macross Zero with slight tweaks than to design and animate an all-new destroid.  Anime is an industry running on a razor-thin margin, so any opportunity to save money by reusing animation or animation resources is generally welcomed.  For the same reason, they reused CG models from Zero for the episode "Legend of Zero" and you'll find practically every car that isn't Ozma's is a generic, low-poly, stock Toyota Prius CG model.

Kawamori's love affair in Frontier was painstakingly recreating San Francisco landmarks throughout Island-1.

 

7 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

But then Delta happens and management reuses Cheyenne 2 yet again in a clearly military role.

They were pretty clear about the Cheyenne II's being military units in Frontier... the reasons given for the refurbished 50 year old design were largely pragmatic matters like the rollers in the feet making them easier on the pavement, or being small enough to operate easily within city limits.  (You wouldn't want your last-ditch defense units to destroy the roads you would need later for emergency services or a general evacuation.)

Delta must've spent most of its budget on the music, because they were reusing Frontier art assets like they were going out of style.  Reused materials practically outnumber original ones, with the VF-171-II, Cheyenne II, Destroid Work, Konig Monster, Island-1, Uraga-class, Guantanamo-class, Dulfim-type, Kaitos-type, and so on.

[JB0]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They were pretty clear about the Cheyenne II's being military units in Frontier... the reasons given for the refurbished 50 year old design were largely pragmatic matters like the rollers in the feet making them easier on the pavement, or being small enough to operate easily within city limits. 

And that doesn't even require a lot of revising of history. Pretty sure that SDF showed Destroids messing up streets on more than one occasion, making it rather clear they are not really a good choice for infrastructure preservation in an urban environment.

Heck, the Monster is even shown wrecking up the deck of the HANGER THEY PARK IT IN as it stomps out before the final battle in episode 27(an event which is all kinds of illogical, but also OH SO COOL). You definitely don't want one of those bad boys clomping along on your sidewalks and cutting through your parks. It really puts the occasional dog turd in a new light.

[Aries Turner]

The HWR-00 Monster was stated somewhere to be inspired in Sumo fighters and the Sumo fighter fighting stance. Reed somewhere also that a Sumo fighter stomping with both feet is supposed to symbolize stomping over evil. And thus also puny hangar floors

About Cheyenne..., yes, yes, yes, but still seems more advanced than any previous... or should I say LATER destroid. All is fixed in statistics adjusting and history tweaking, but the model per-se couldn't do that without that background facts. Even stating it was used in a military role by refurbishing fails to explain adequately why it got obsolete in SDFM and DYRL, and any background explanation to overcome that will just be retconning and history fixing, thus implying what is said already: KW doesn't care, nor needs to, about the timeframe to include his new cool toy, even if the setting is prior to mainline series, because that is the job of the personnel charged with canon continuity. Even if he included Escaflowne alongside the Orgus Valkyrie:

'MBR-06 Escaflowne. Losed the contract the MBR-07 won for close quarters Battle Robot, later refined in the MBR-06 Mk II variant that included first instance of transformation ability. Both versions built by Dwayne Enterprises of New Gottingham Island as a private venture. Both in black, for whatever reason.'

"I'm Batmaw!"

http://macross2.net/m3/moremecha/escaflowne-black.htm

Edited April 21, 2019 by Aries Turner
Almost forgot MBR-08 Masamune

[sketchley]

2 hours ago, Aries Turner said:

The HWR-00 Monster was stated somewhere to be inspired in Sumo fighters and the Sumo fighter fighting stance. Reed somewhere also that a Sumo fighter stomping with both feet is supposed to symbolize stomping over evil. And thus also puny hangar floors

About Cheyenne..., yes, yes, yes, but still seems more advanced than any previous... or should I say LATER destroid. All is fixed in statistics adjusting and history tweaking, but the model per-se couldn't do that without that background facts. (...)

Well, Kawamori-san et al are on record as saying the Monster has literally a "one-step world".

As for the Cheyenne... keep in mind that the Macross Zero version is essentially gasoline engine powered, and the later, SDF-1 era Destroids have nuclear reactors.  So, visuals aside, the MBR-04, MBR-07, etc. series are all more advanced (and larger, and carry more weapons, and...).

In the background materials for M0, they did indicate (or imply) that the MBR-03 series (the Cheyenne) was a developmental stepping stone to the MBR-04 series—paralleling the relationship of the VF-0 to the VF-1.  Of course, the MBR-03 series was abandoned in favour of the larger MBR-04 series because of their poor combat performance in M0 (not that the MBR-04/07 series performed better or anything in SWI. )

[BEAST]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Please, please, please be more careful with your quote tags... this is very difficult  to read.

I know! I even said so myself. I asked for help fixing the tags. I copied and pasted, then typed my remarks, in my phone. Very few options for tags or formatting there. Posted it. Then came here on my laptop to try to clean it up. But I didn't get very far with that until I ran right into a dead end. I cannot see what my mistake is. I think I found where it happened, but not what I did. And until the code error at that part gets fixed, I cannot go any further with clarifying the formatting later in the post.