Finally got to watch Mac 0, my 1st impressions

[Southcross]

Now, please don't get me wrong... I'm speaking not in generality, but as "this was my first impression of CG" I Have learned to embrase CG, but... BUT... the original CGIs I have/had problems with when they came out and I still can't seem to enjoy them. Now as an example the Toy Story movies (please forgive my leaving the Anime genra), I love them (own the "Toy Box" DVD collectors edition) but if you view any of the decade old CGI animations they did... OMG they suck a$$ my specific example is "Tin Toy", I don't care if they won an award for it. Their animation and design of the "infant" (if you can call that flatchulent blob a realistic "infant") was horrible.

[Daishi3500]

The partition of mw'ers; the pro cg in anime (boo), and the old school anti-cg in anime.

[nexxstrait]

My opinion. I am enjoying M0 and I think the CG in it is far better than what I thought (in my worst nightmares). BUT, confronted to, say, Macross Plus (which is the highest achievement in hand-made animation ever accomplished by the macross franchise along with DYRL), the 'magic' is just not there. I like to watch animation (in general) and wonder 'wow, they did THAT!" like a child. Marvel, that's the word. Well, I don't get that feeling watching M0 Valks, although I must admit that, for a CG show, it's quite impressive, or better, the best CG animation I've seen so far, even with its many faults.

[Final Vegeta]

so you noticed the carpet bombing F-117's too  

Well, the ones doing carpet bombing were actually B-2s...

FV

[Agent ONE]

MZero rocks... Everything about it is perfect. Especially the fact that it ISN'T like M7.

[imode]

My opinion. I am enjoying M0 and I think the CG in it is far better than what I thought (in my worst nightmares). BUT, confronted to, say, Macross Plus (which is the highest achievement in hand-made animation ever accomplished by the macross franchise along with DYRL), the 'magic' is just not there. I like to watch animation (in general) and wonder 'wow, they did THAT!" like a child. Marvel, that's the word. Well, I don't get that feeling watching M0 Valks, although I must admit that, for a CG show, it's quite impressive, or better, the best CG animation I've seen so far, even with its many faults.

I can't complain about the detail in the CG beacuse it is very high quality. However, I really wished they'd slow things down a bit. It's like they made crappy low frame CG animation then sped it up to look more fluid. Half the time, I can't figure out what exactly is going on. I say, if you can't make animation on par with pixar (don't even speak to me about Gonzo), then you shouldn't even be trying.

[bsu legato]

Don't listen to the naysayers. Macross Zero is better than sex (well, almost).

[Agent ONE]

Don't listen to the naysayers. Macross Zero is better than sex (well, almost).

Oral, anal, or vaginal?

[dna]

Or doorknob?

[JValk]

BACK to the subject...

The first time i managed to get thru an entire series of anime that switched back and forth between cgi and cel at will was Initial D. That thing gave me a HEADACHE- every curve and turn was cgi car vroom/cel driver reacts. But you know what? After a while it grew on me. I think Macross Zero is alot smoother than Initial D in transition, but it can still be pretty jarring at times. For an anime, the worst thing it can do is jar you out of your mesmerized immersion into all that is Kawamori. But in the long run, heck i'll get used to it, and once i get past the gimmicky nature of it i'll just start enjoying the anime lol.

[Daishi3500]

My opinion. I am enjoying M0 and I think the CG in it is far better than what I thought (in my worst nightmares). BUT, confronted to, say, Macross Plus (which is the highest achievement in hand-made animation ever accomplished by the macross franchise along with DYRL), the 'magic' is just not there. I like to watch animation (in general) and wonder 'wow, they did THAT!" like a child. Marvel, that's the word. Well, I don't get that feeling watching M0 Valks, although I must admit that, for a CG show, it's quite impressive, or better, the best CG animation I've seen so far, even with its many faults.

I can't complain about the detail in the CG beacuse it is very high quality. However, I really wished they'd slow things down a bit. It's like they made crappy low frame CG animation then sped it up to look more fluid. Half the time, I can't figure out what exactly is going on. I say, if you can't make animation on par with pixar (don't even speak to me about Gonzo), then you shouldn't even be trying.

see, thats the thing, yukikaze has super high and smooth frame rates, and the models are absolute eye candy.

[Panon]

My opinion. I am enjoying M0 and I think the CG in it is far better than what I thought (in my worst nightmares). BUT, confronted to, say, Macross Plus (which is the highest achievement in hand-made animation ever accomplished by the macross franchise along with DYRL), the 'magic' is just not there. I like to watch animation (in general) and wonder 'wow, they did THAT!" like a child. Marvel, that's the word. Well, I don't get that feeling watching M0 Valks, although I must admit that, for a CG show, it's quite impressive, or better, the best CG animation I've seen so far, even with its many faults.

I can't complain about the detail in the CG beacuse it is very high quality. However, I really wished they'd slow things down a bit. It's like they made crappy low frame CG animation then sped it up to look more fluid. Half the time, I can't figure out what exactly is going on. I say, if you can't make animation on par with pixar (don't even speak to me about Gonzo), then you shouldn't even be trying.

see, thats the thing, yukikaze has super high and smooth frame rates, and the models are absolute eye candy.

For everything there's a price. Yukikaze's is that the detail is MUCH lower, and the entire show in general doesn't look anywhere as good as M0's art does.

[wolfx]

BACK to the subject...

The first time i managed to get thru an entire series of anime that switched back and forth between cgi and cel at will was Initial D. That thing gave me a HEADACHE- every curve and turn was cgi car vroom/cel driver reacts. But you know what? After a while it grew on me. I think Macross Zero is alot smoother than Initial D in transition, but it can still be pretty jarring at times. For an anime, the worst thing it can do is jar you out of your mesmerized immersion into all that is Kawamori. But in the long run, heck i'll get used to it, and once i get past the gimmicky nature of it i'll just start enjoying the anime lol.

But you realise in Initial D, the CG sequences and the cel-parts are entirely seperate, never intertwining. Same goes for GONZO's Last Exile and Vandread.

Even in Macross Zero, there's not much intermingling of CG and cel...but like I said before, I'm not sure why they decided to make the explosions normal cel when everything else is in CG....makes it look weird. Its funny to see a CG VF slowly turn into cel as it gets shot and explodes.

[Southcross]

I took another look at my vids.... oh ya, never really payed enough attention to the "explosions" themselves, it is noticable... but I don't think its distracting from the general animation or the story line.

Its funny to see a CG VF slowly turn into cel as it gets shot and explodes

I agree, but again I don't think it necessarily detracting. I hope they plan to do more than the what, 5 or 6 episodes. Even if its a different Macross story... I want more

doh almost forgot... I hate working... its distracting me...

What are the supposed release dates for 4 and 5? Has there been any word about a box set, "movie" compolation, inflatable Sawa?

Edited January 26, 2004 by Southcross

[mighty gorgon]

regarding the dog-fights, I think they would look much better if they animated manually like in M+. Sure its a hell load of work, but I thought the M+ battles were cool as hell. If they are however using cg, which they are, I'd hope it would at least look like yukikaze battles. BTW, how many of you think yukikaze looks better, now I didn't say the story, characters, and such. Just the look of the dog-fights, yeknow- the aphrodesiac (sp) of aviation movies.

In Yukikaze it seems they applied heavy cel shading to 3D animations of planes. IMHO it blends better with the rest of the animation. In M0 some elements are "over rendered", while other are plain 2D. Even if the planes look great, they stand out too much of the painted background. Yukikaze handled the animation better I guess...

Also I love the Yuki birds... even the Banshee (only the Jam suck).

[Hiriyu]

Hell, the cels for M0 are probably done via CG ink. Inking by hand was phased out at the turn of the century. It's probably why we see more computers at animators' desks rather than brushes and such. Hand-painted cels are used only because they would be easier, but CG ink is preferred and would cut costs in the long run.

I'd have to agree with Azrael on this one - I'd stake good money that there are no hand inked cels in the entire production of M0, and I'd go as far as saying there's probably not much that's even hand drawn. But, that seems to be the direction the whole industry is moving...

Nevertheless, I'm enjoying the series, even though I'm not a big fan of the character design or character graphical execution.

[Southcross]

Well I'm sure that "hand inking" probably went out more than a decade ago. But, I'm also sure they are done in basically the same mannor using a drawing app like Adobe Illustrator, Quark, etc (maybe some kind of proprietary drawing app). Not a 3D, computer generated image.

[POA 70]

After reading several posts on various topics, I finally decided to register and throw in my two cents about this. I finally saw Macross 0, and I was amazed at the CGI animation. I thought the battle scenes were great and I hope they continue to make them that way. When the battle group was attacked at sea, I had to watch that scene a few times. WOW!! Even my daughter had to sit on my lap to watch it. So if she likes it, then it must be good.

[Agent ONE]

After reading several posts on various topics, I finally decided to register and throw in my two cents about this. I finally saw Macross 0, and I was amazed at the CGI animation. I thought the battle scenes were great and I hope they continue to make them that way. When the battle group was attacked at sea, I had to watch that scene a few times. WOW!! Even my daughter had to sit on my lap to watch it. So if she likes it, then it must be good.

Welcome to MW!

[Southcross]

After reading several posts on various topics, I finally decided to register and throw in my two cents about this. I finally saw Macross 0, and I was amazed at the CGI animation. I thought the battle scenes were great and I hope they continue to make them that way. When the battle group was attacked at sea, I had to watch that scene a few times. WOW!! Even my daughter had to sit on my lap to watch it. So if she likes it, then it must be good.

hehe same here POA... now I'm the offical Pest everyone wants to flame

Welcome to MW

[POA 70]

As much as I enjoyed watching the show, and reading those great subtitles, I hope they are redubbed into english and sold in the states. Having to read subtitles throughout the whole movie takes away from the great art work done.

[Southcross]

As much as I enjoyed watching the show, and reading those great subtitles, I hope they are redubbed into english and sold in the states. Having to read subtitles throughout the whole movie takes away from the great art work done.

As long as they are good subtitles... i.e. progress at a readable rate, make freekin' sense.... they really aren't to big of a deal.

I have seen some pretty bad subtitles. Ones that progressed so fast that I was forced to pause my DVD player many times to read them (Usually cheap imports).

I have also seen bad translations that read like it was written by a redneck highschool drop out. Now I haven't seen the specific eppisode (or movie?) (I think its mentioned somewhere on MW) of a few episodes of Macross that were so badly translated that "you should go get a cup of coffee, by the time you come back the subtitles should make sense"

[Southcross]

Only issue I had with Macross Zero's CG/art were the explosions. Not sure why they opted to use traditional hand drawn explosions against the CG models, which kinda showed the glaring differences between the 2. But other than that small irritance, I'd say Macross Zero does a good blending of CG and traditional cel.

IMHO, Macross Zero had more detail, but dogfight simulation was not entirely realistic. (They are Valks afterall) Yukikaze had less detail to the models, but their flight physics and dogfights were more realistic and when they bank and turn in the air, you can see those pressure lines on the wings.

PS: What real world irregularities (military, non-military) did you find in Macross Zero? I have a military freak friend who cusses Macross Zero for showing:

1.) Carpet bombing stealth fighters

2.) Asuka getting attacked without a CAP (Combat Air Patrol)

OK I have a little more difinitive information regarding the "carpet bombing" stealth fighter

Actualy Its the stealth bomber, I made the same mistake myself:

Thank you for your interest in today's Air Force.  Regarding your debate on whether the B-2 can "carpet bomb:"

The B-2 is capable of carrying several different standard loads.  We are most known for our precision weapon capability.  The staple of that capability is the 2000-pound Joint Direct Attack Munition, which we have used in operations over Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq.  Each B-2 is capable of carrying up to 16 of these weapons on a single flight.

As another option, the B-2 can carry up to eighty 500-pound bombs.  These are currently unguided, or "dumb" weapons, as opposed to the Global Positioning System-guided JDAMs.  However, the Air Force is in the process of adapting the JDAM system to the 500-pound Mark 82 bombs.  This will give the B-2 the capability to strike eighty separate targets on a single mission, with accuracy measured in feet, if not inches, from each target.  These different types of weapon loads do involve changing the configuration of the bomb bay.

You may have seen an animation based on a B-2 drop of eighty Mark 82s.  The videos of these drops do resemble the famous shots of B-52s releasing large numbers of weapons at a time (what most people think of as "carpet bombing").   

"Carpet bombing," however, is very nearly an obsolete concept.  It was used in past years when weapons were not very accurate, and large quantities had to be dropped on a target area for a reasonable assurance the target itself would be destroyed.  In World War II, for example, over 1,000 B-17s might be sent to a German city, in the hope of damaging or destroying a single ball bearing factory.  In the process, large parts of the rest of the city were heavily damaged as well.  That is no longer necessary, thanks to the accuracy of GPS and laser guided weapons, which are capable of targeting a specific part of a certain building, often leaving surrounding structures undamaged.  This has greatly aided our ability to pursue enemies in the War on Terrorism while minimizing damage and casualties among those who are not our enemy.

Thank you for your question, and your interest in the Air Force and the B-2!

Regards,

Maj. Don Langley

509 BW/PA

Whiteman AFB Missouri

Basically, a bunch of us were wrong... and right... but mostly wrong

This reply I got to my e-mail just made me go WOW

[DARTHTODD]

Just gotta say that I love Macross Zero, the CG blew me away. I also really like how colorful it is, real eye candy. Can't wait for the next episodes.

[ewilen]

Thanks for posting that letter, Southcross. Looks like the Air Force has a good customer service department!

[Southcross]

Thanks for posting that letter, Southcross. Looks like the Air Force has a good customer service department!

I thought "who better to ask than the "man" himself"

In my email I explained the "debate" and that a simple yes or no in regards to "carpet bombing" would suffice. Then I get that letter, and I just about fell out of my seat.