Finally got to watch Mac 0, my 1st impressions

[JKeats]

Last night, my co-worker's boyfriend brought me the first two episodes of Macross Zero (thanks Trey! ) and I watched them when I got home from work. I have to say, Macross Zero is very impressive. I think that it almost has the same feel as Macross Plus and DYRL in that it takes a serious look at the consequences of war and with the storyline including the testing and training of new valkyries. The fight scenes were great, especially the battle between Roy and Ivanov. One thing that I noticed were the sound effects, especially concerning the valks when they moved around. They sounded almost like something you would hear in Robocop, with the clicking and the whirring noises.

Another thing I noticed was how the valks moved differently, especially when compared to the other series'. For example, in DYRL, we mostly see the valks flying around in space; floating, crashing through bridges, blasting around asteroids. In 7, I don't think we really got to see how the valks handle, other than Max in his VF-22S at the end, we saw instead more Basara and Sound Force having stand-off situations and blasting their music at the enemy. In Mac 0, we see intense aerial battles but what surprised me was how the valks performed on or near the ground. They moved in a more natural fashion, walking, running and maneuvering more like birds than mecha. I thought this was keeping in theme with the Bird-man idea and it fit well in the series.

Also, with Shin and Sara, I definitely see some parallels between them and Basara and Sivil. Am I the only one on this?

Overall, I thought it was great, and I can't wait to see episode 3.

[justvinnie]

Ep 3 Destroid battle will have you slack jawed. It is the single greatest fight scene in Macross to date.

vinnie

[Göönk]

I totally agree. The boat scene is amazing. From the Destroid to the armored VF-0S. The scene lasts 2 minutes but it's pure mecha fight.

[Noyhauser]

Ep 3 Destroid battle will have you slack jawed. It is the single greatest fight scene in Macross to date.

Better than Guld's Death scene in the Plus OAV? (tricking the Ghost into thinking he has won, blowing off his limbs and then showing him who is boss?)

Matter of opinion I say.

[Chronocidal]

Hehe.. I haven't even seen the OAV, but I have heard that it can't compare to the more intense version in the movie version of Mac+... youch...that really looked painful.

[Noyhauser]

WHOOPS

I meant the Movie Version.... The OAV version sucked ass

[JKeats]

I'll make sure to pay attention when I watch episode 3, but so far I was pretty impressed with the fight scenes in 1 and 2. I really liked how they incorporated Shin's flashback when he jumps into the VF-0 for the first time, it reminded me of Hikaru killing the Zentraedi.

The only thing that bothered me was the style of the animation. Even though it might be a shallow point to make but it bothered me how Roy didn't look like Roy.

[isamu]

Any word on a domestic release?

[wolfx]

I wonder who are those Tori No Hito (bird people). Macronised protoculture? And why was there no mention of it in SDF and Macross 7. I bet it somehow awakens and flies away while causing the whole earth to have amnesia or something. But not after Sara does something to calm it down from destroying the whole world. Hehe.

[Neova]

Ep 3 Destroid battle will have you slack jawed. It is the single greatest fight scene in Macross to date.

vinnie

Agreed! A must see scene for ANY Macross fan!

[Daishi3500]

regarding the dog-fights, I think they would look much better if they animated manually like in M+. Sure its a hell load of work, but I thought the M+ battles were cool as hell. If they are however using cg, which they are, I'd hope it would at least look like yukikaze battles. BTW, how many of you think yukikaze looks better, now I didn't say the story, characters, and such. Just the look of the dog-fights, yeknow- the aphrodesiac (sp) of aviation movies.

[Göönk]

regarding the dog-fights, I think they would look much better if they animated manually like in M+. Sure its a hell load of work, but I thought the M+ battles were cool as hell. If they are however using cg, which they are, I'd hope it would at least look like yukikaze battles. BTW, how many of you think yukikaze looks better, now I didn't say the story, characters, and such. Just the look of the dog-fights, yeknow- the aphrodesiac (sp) of aviation movies.

I haven't seen yukikaze, but I did saw the first ep. of Area 88 and they are using CG as well, but it looks like it's a drawing. (if you prefer that kind of anime). Give it a try at your favorite torrent site.

[JKeats]

The CG stuff in Mac 0 looks good, although it is a completely different approach when compared to Mac Plus or DYRL. Just shows how Kawamori is willing to try new things, whatever the fanboys may think.

[Renato]

Any word on a domestic release?

Yep. The word is: "NEVER"!! Mwa-haha-ha! Long live the Evil Empire of HG! May Emperor Macek forever hold his sceptre high (by which I mean, an MPC with the LED battery running out).

[Jawjaw]

Yeah, ep3 has some of the best action to date. I was belting out "oooh" and "aaah" all over the place. The level of detail in the animation throughout the series is incredible, IMO. A lot of the high production animation these days looks great but Mac0 seems a little better than the rest to me.

[Nightbat]

I for one 'hate' the CG used in zero

the valks look like utter crap, only slightly better than what was used in Beast Wars

(I love what was done for Reboot and even FF SW is pretty good)

Edit - ....and this takes alot away from the dogfights

I don't know if anyone ever saw the animation intro used in the Mortal Combat movie?...

I don't consider M0 much better

(or I have superior eyesight and distinguish CG very easily,...but with a left-eye dominance problem I guess not)

As for the story:

Well, as with most Prequals, it screws up the rest of the series

The "Magic-factor" is taken a step further (levitation of stones by singing?? <_< )

to be honest,..

I think it's as much Macross as Southern Cross and Mospea (sp?)

It's quite good though, don't get me wrong

I just don't see it as "Macross" or try to convince myself that it's "a worthy Prequal"

it's just a good anime

Edited January 19, 2004 by Nightbat®

[Daishi3500]

I love M-0 and its cg

o really, jk

[Graham]

Gotta say I love the CG in Macross Zero. I've long been an advocate of CG Valk dogfights after being sold on the concept by the opening movies of VF-X2 (Playstation), Macross Since 1983 (PC) and Macross Another Story (PC), as well as a few other CG Valk movies (both official and fan made) who's source I forget.

I actually don't like it when they mix in the odd bit of cell animation for the Valks in Zero, it looks really out of place IMO. I'm not saying every Macross series should have CG Valks, but I think the animators have done an outstanding job with Macross Zero so far and and shown us just how well Valks can perform in combat and also have made the combat look more real than in any previous Macross anime.

And personally, I think Macross Zero far outshines Yukikaze in every aspect, animation, dogfights, mecha designs, story, characters, pacing and music.

Just my 2 cents.

Graham

[Lightning]

And personally, I think Macross Zero far outshines Yukikaze in every aspect, animation, dogfights, mecha designs, story, characters, pacing and music.

Graham

agreed.

[Final Vegeta]

The "Magic-factor" is taken a step further (levitation of stones by singing?? <_<  )

You didn't catch the glowing glyph Maybe there is a hidden miniaturized thermonuclear reactor with anti-gravity device inside those stones, or maybe it is just an overtechnology paint that did that

FV

[Ignacio Ocamica]

You didn't catch the glowing glyph Maybe there is a hidden miniaturized thermonuclear reactor with anti-gravity device inside those stones, or maybe it is just an overtechnology paint that did that

FV

LMAO!

[Aegis!]

I for one 'hate' the CG used in zero

the valks look like utter crap, only slightly better than what was used in Beast Wars

(I love what was done for Reboot and even FF SW is pretty good)

Edit - ....and this takes alot away from the dogfights

I don't know if anyone ever saw the animation intro used in the Mortal Combat movie?...

I don't consider M0 much better

(or I have superior eyesight and distinguish CG very easily,...but with a left-eye dominance problem I guess not)

As for the story:

Well, as with most Prequals, it screws up the rest of the series

The "Magic-factor" is taken a step further (levitation of stones by singing?? )

to be honest,..

I think it's as much Macross as Southern Cross and Mospea (sp?)

It's quite good though, don't get me wrong

I just don't see it as "Macross" or try to convince myself that it's "a worthy Prequal"

it's just a good anime

You´ve got to be joking

Reboot and Beast Wars were major CRAP , not only now but in their times.

I don´t know what the hell do you mean by

and this takes alot away from the dogfights

.

Firstly , the detail achieved with the CG is utterly beautiful to look at , not only that but the CG models show a lot of the mechanics involved on the functioning of a valkyrie. I guess you´re satisfied with cell animation such as Anime Friends efforts where ¨anime-magic ¨rules over realism instead of Macross Zero´s high quality work.

It only comes to show how little you understand the timeline and the plot when you say there´s a ¨Magic-Factor¨ in this anime.

If you knew that what the natives take as myth is nothing more than what the Protoculture REALLY did then you wouldn´t take it as ¨magic-factor¨ that´s just being interpreted that way in M0 cause the natives are a bunch of idiots that are amazed by flying objects.

When the author presented the natives beliefs it´s not meant to be taken literally as the natives see it. Not because the natives see it as myths it means the audience has to believe they´re myths. You have to take into account the people of mayan have very little education and their society has been isolated for hundreds of years.

What they see as a giant bird could very well be a comercial plane , what they see as magic boxes could very well be a television , what they see as a tiny sun could very well be a light bulb.

Ir would only be foolish to take things the same way as the natives. So your mumbo-jumbo could very well be what the Protoculture came to do , if you ignore what is told in Macross Zero then you also ignore DYRL and SDF Macross since all this crap was stablished a LOOOOONG time ago , Zero is just adding detail to it and covering the pre-SW1 era.

[Southcross]

to add my 2 cents worth. IMO I personally hate CG for anime/cartoons. I am an old school fan of the first seasons of Transformers, GI Joe, and Robotech. I didn't become a Macross fan untill several years later. What did I know, I was like 12. I think CG killed the good cartoons (please excuse my verbage if I interchange Anime and Cartoon, I get defensive too when someone calls Anime a Cartoon. When I say cartoon I mean cartoon, the CG ones really blow, besides they no longer air them. ). IMO Mac-0 using a combination of CG and traditional Anime is an awesome mix. You get the facinating story building using traditional, then the high detail with amazingly intricate movement and combat sequences using the CG. I dont' think it detracts in any way from the story or the combat sequences...

[CoryHolmes]

ReBoot was pretty damn good at the time, considering the quality of CGI avaliable for a TV-style timeframe and budget.

Beast Wars was pretty good, again, given their probable budget, time constraints, and target audience. It was certainly better that any other cartoon on TV at the time. And it was enjoyable.

I don´t know what the hell do you mean by

 

and this takes alot away from the dogfights

I don't know what Nightbat meant, but to me, the CGI is so glaring against the cell animation behind that instead of blending in, the differences become larger and more visible. So instead of being able to sit back and try to enjoy the show, all I see are the CGI against the cell background.

And on that thread of thought, I have issues with the way the action is filmed by the director. The camera used is shaking too badly to really have a clear picture of what's going on. It's like the director is trying to artificially increase the tension in an otherwise somewhat bland scene.

guess you´re satisfied with cell animation such as Anime Friends efforts where ¨anime-magic ¨rules over realism instead of Macross Zero´s high quality work.

Not quite. Those of us who prefer the cell animation are remembering Evangelion and Macross Plus as two stellar works that didn't need to cheat with CGI to get fantastic action scenes that held the viewers on the edges of their seats.

It only comes to show how little you understand the timeline and the plot when you say there´s a ¨Magic-Factor¨ in this anime.

If you knew that what the natives take as myth is nothing more than what the Protoculture REALLY did then you wouldn´t take it as ¨magic-factor¨ that´s just being interpreted that way in M0 cause the natives are a bunch of idiots that are amazed by flying objects.

First off, the tone of your post is a little condecending and insulting. Not exactly the best way to go about having a serious conversation and debate.

Secondly, the "magic factor" happens to be the levitating of stones and causing spontanious growth and blossoming of flowers just by singing a song. And there's the precognition Sara displayed in OVA 1, though that could be explained as the APHOS transmitting knowledge directly into her brain.

Firstly , the detail achieved with the CG is utterly beautiful to look at , not only that but the CG models show a lot of the mechanics involved on the functioning of a valkyrie.

Yes, that's something that CGI is good at, massive amounts of details on the models. But if those models don't move as believably as the cell animation, then it's worth very little to go that route. And the CG models don't show the mechanics of the mecha any better than cell animtion would. The only reason we see the things we now see are because the writers and directors decided to show it to us, regardless of the medium used.

If the opening fight sequence in OVA 1 were cell-animated instead of CGI, do you think they wouldn't have shown us the swing-bars for the legs, or the pilot's seat rotating and the extra screens sliding into place? I certainly don't think so.

Yes, the CGI is very pretty to look at, but it doesn't suspend my disbelief as easily as the cell animation in Eva and Mac+ did, which I find dissapointing considering the relative age of those titles compared to Macross Zero.

[Southcross]

I don't know what Nightbat meant, but to me, the CGI is so glaring against the cell animation behind that instead of blending in, the differences become larger and more visible. So instead of being able to sit back and try to enjoy the show, all I see are the CGI against the cell background.

Primarily why your seeing such a contrast difference between the normal cells and the CG is the difference in color depth. Traditional (excuse me if I don't quite the correct/exact number) anime uses 16 or 32 colors, CG is only limited by the color depth of the computer generating the CG and the TV. so you have a background that is 16/32 colors with an image in the foreground with many thousands of colors. They could of lowered the image contrast a tad, maybe add a little differential transparancy to neutralize the color depth difference. But as you have said...

given their probable budget, time constraints, and target audience.

if they spec out a pre-release version of Mac-0 and show it to an audience who like CGI they will get Kudos, while the rest of the world may not like CGI (as much). Its all preferential and "to each his own", I think they did an excelent job.

[wolfx]

Only issue I had with Macross Zero's CG/art were the explosions. Not sure why they opted to use traditional hand drawn explosions against the CG models, which kinda showed the glaring differences between the 2. But other than that small irritance, I'd say Macross Zero does a good blending of CG and traditional cel.

IMHO, Macross Zero had more detail, but dogfight simulation was not entirely realistic. (They are Valks afterall) Yukikaze had less detail to the models, but their flight physics and dogfights were more realistic and when they bank and turn in the air, you can see those pressure lines on the wings.

PS: What real world irregularities (military, non-military) did you find in Macross Zero? I have a military freak friend who cusses Macross Zero for showing:

1.) Carpet bombing stealth fighters

2.) Asuka getting attacked without a CAP (Combat Air Patrol)

Edited January 21, 2004 by wolfx

[Southcross]

ROTFLMAO!

so you noticed the carpet bombing F-117's too

someone at the studio needs to do a little more reasearch

Not sure why they opted to use traditional hand drawn explosions against the CG models

well darn I should of noticed that right away, when I get home from work I'll have to watch it again. all I can say to that is ICK!

IMHO, Macross Zero had more detail, but dogfight simulation was not entirely realistic

I thought the Dogfight scenes were not too bad, though I think the scenes from Macross Plus beat Mac-0 hands down

[azrael]

Some thoughts.

Firstly , the detail achieved with the CG is utterly beautiful to look at , not only that but the CG

models show a lot of the mechanics involved on the functioning of a valkyrie.

That,of course, is a matter of opinion. Frankly I don't see the problem using CG nowadays. Hell, the cels for M0 are probably done via CG ink. Inking by hand was phased out at the turn of the century. It's probably why we see more computers at animators' desks rather than brushes and such. Hand-painted cels are used only because they would be easier, but CG ink is preferred and would cut costs in the long run.

First off, the tone of your post is a little condecending and insulting. Not exactly the best way to go about having a serious conversation and debate.

Quite. Aegis, no need to work yourself over about this.

But if those models don't move as believably as the cell animation, then it's worth very little to go that route. And the CG models don't show the mechanics of the mecha any better than cell animtion would.

Actually, CG models would work better than cel animation. Cel animation would tend to make things too life-like. CG models still has a hard time removing the "doll" effect. This would be bad for life-like characters since people don't move like dolls. Machines, to our best ability, would still move like dolls due to limitations in the joints, gears, etc.. Remember, moving some parts of our body requires several dozen muscles. Our skin and such would move as well. CG would have a hard time drawing that since you would be drawing lots of parts. That takes time to render. Mechanical models do not need to move as many parts. Their looks would be much more constant. For most animation projects, they don't have WETA-sized budgets. So they can't make characters completely digital.

IMHO, Macross Zero had more detail, but dogfight simulation was not entirely realistic.

Who the hell said M0 or any Macross series had to be realistic? You guys really gotta drop this "It doesn't look realistic" stuff. It's bad for your health.

2.) Asuka getting attacked without a CAP (Combat Air Patrol)

You missed the VF following Nora when they were attacking the Asuka, didn't you?

[wolfx]

Actually, CG models would work better than cel animation. Cel animation would tend to make things too life-like. CG models still has a hard time removing the "doll" effect. This would be bad for life-like characters since people don't move like dolls.

Huh??? Wasn't it CG that would make things too life-like? In fact in Shrek, they had to downgrade princess whatshername's detail so she would seem more cartoon than life like. And "doll" effect....you probably have not seen Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. But I think you meant its not currently cost effective to make CG "life-like" compared to cel, which is true.

Who the hell said M0 or any Macross series had to be realistic? You guys really gotta drop this "It doesn't look realistic" stuff. It's bad for your health.

Not saying that it should be realistic or not. This was just a comparison between the "who has better CG argument" between Yukikaze and Macross Zero higher up the thread. I personally like both as they are, but it would be cool if there was a almagation of both.

You missed the VF following Nora when they were attacking the Asuka, didn't you?

I saw missles and explosions......all hell's break loose, so no I did not see the VF following Nora.

The way I understand it, a fleet of boats/carriers are as good as dead when fighters get as close as they did in M0 3. The fact that they did get that close was either the CAP was completely obliterated....or them russian valks bashed through the front lines. It seemed that only Fokker was the only surviving pilot to defend the Asuka. But you could argue that dogfights were still happening around the Asuka and only Ivanov and Nora broke through the CAP.

ROTFLMAO!

so you noticed the carpet bombing F-117's too 

someone at the studio needs to do a little more reasearch

It wasn't me who noticed it....it was my military freak friend. He's the one cussing Macross Zero for all its real world irregularities.

[JKeats]

I really don't want to go with the "everyone has their own tastes so let's agree to disagree" argument here because I think that the point is that Kawamori wanted to try something new with Macross, which I think is always the case when he is doing a Macross project. Especially with the CG, which shows Valkyries in a completely new light. Like it or not, I think that anime is headed towards the land of CG and in my opinion, Macross 0 is just another example that CG can be done well.

This isn't to say that hand-drawn animation should be ignored. Macross Plus and Cowboy Bebop are great examples of how traditional animation can take aerial combat in anime to a new level.

BUT, Kawamori has shown us time and again that he doesn't like to repeat in Macross. Look at the original TV series to DYRL and then compare DYRL to Flashback 2012. That's three different styles right there. Add in Plus and then the 7 series and you've got an ever-changing style with the same series.

Regarding the "magic" issue: this wasn't too surprising to me, especially after watching the Macross 7 OVA series. I'm not saying that the 7 OVA series was heavily saturated with this "magic-power" theme, but it did have a more spiritual/mystical taste to it. While Kawamori might not use the same animation style in each of the series, similar themes are prominently recurring.

Edited January 21, 2004 by JKeats

[Renato]

I personally think that the CG in Zero is good, but the quality of the cel animation is not. In fact, it's dismal. Many more frames and a lot more detail is required on the actual drawings. I love the background art, that compliments the CG very well, but there is a clear jarring effect as soon as the characters appear and "move about".

Add in more detailed lighting and shading on the cels (a good start is the underwater scene in #3) and more natural movements for the characters, and M0 will be appear a seamless blend of CGI and hand-drawn cels. At the moment it's just a fat, ugly mess.

Worst example: Episode 2, when Shin is on the Asuka looking out at the ocean and "Roy" (if that's who the hell that's supposed to be [joke]) comes in. Watching that scene gives me a headache. It's like two neon colours flashing in my brain.

Edited January 21, 2004 by Renato

[bandit29]

I like Macross Zero but overall it could be better. The character designs are ugly for the most part and like Renato said the actual cel animation is poor. The backgrounds and the CG look great. The dogfights are fun to watch and the destroid action in episode 3 was pretty cool.

I don't like the switching of the cel to CG in the same scene it looks cheap and half assed.

Worst example: Episode 2, when Shin is on the Asuka looking out at the ocean and "Roy" (if that's who the hell that's supposed to be [joke]) comes in. Watching that scene gives me a headache. It's like two neon colours flashing in my brain.

I think that might be the worst animated scene in Macross history lol

[Nightbat]

ReBoot was pretty damn good at the time, considering the quality of CGI avaliable for a TV-style timeframe and budget.

Beast Wars was pretty good, again, given their probable budget, time constraints, and target audience. It was certainly better that any other cartoon on TV at the time. And it was enjoyable.

I don´t know what the hell do you mean by

 

and this takes alot away from the dogfights

I don't know what Nightbat meant, but to me, the CGI is so glaring against the cell animation behind that instead of blending in, the differences become larger and more visible. So instead of being able to sit back and try to enjoy the show, all I see are the CGI against the cell background.

And on that thread of thought, I have issues with the way the action is filmed by the director. The camera used is shaking too badly to really have a clear picture of what's going on. It's like the director is trying to artificially increase the tension in an otherwise somewhat bland scene.

guess you´re satisfied with cell animation such as Anime Friends efforts where ¨anime-magic ¨rules over realism instead of Macross Zero´s high quality work.

Not quite. Those of us who prefer the cell animation are remembering Evangelion and Macross Plus as two stellar works that didn't need to cheat with CGI to get fantastic action scenes that held the viewers on the edges of their seats.

It only comes to show how little you understand the timeline and the plot when you say there´s a ¨Magic-Factor¨ in this anime.

If you knew that what the natives take as myth is nothing more than what the Protoculture REALLY did then you wouldn´t take it as ¨magic-factor¨ that´s just being interpreted that way in M0 cause the natives are a bunch of idiots that are amazed by flying objects.

First off, the tone of your post is a little condecending and insulting. Not exactly the best way to go about having a serious conversation and debate.

Secondly, the "magic factor" happens to be the levitating of stones and causing spontanious growth and blossoming of flowers just by singing a song. And there's the precognition Sara displayed in OVA 1, though that could be explained as the APHOS transmitting knowledge directly into her brain.

Firstly , the detail achieved with the CG is utterly beautiful to look at , not only that but the CG models show a lot of the mechanics involved on the functioning of a valkyrie.

Yes, that's something that CGI is good at, massive amounts of details on the models. But if those models don't move as believably as the cell animation, then it's worth very little to go that route. And the CG models don't show the mechanics of the mecha any better than cell animtion would. The only reason we see the things we now see are because the writers and directors decided to show it to us, regardless of the medium used.

If the opening fight sequence in OVA 1 were cell-animated instead of CGI, do you think they wouldn't have shown us the swing-bars for the legs, or the pilot's seat rotating and the extra screens sliding into place? I certainly don't think so.

Yes, the CGI is very pretty to look at, but it doesn't suspend my disbelief as easily as the cell animation in Eva and Mac+ did, which I find dissapointing considering the relative age of those titles compared to Macross Zero.

That about sums it up

Reboot/Beastwars/FF spirits within... I have little problems with those since it's entirely CG

Titan AE, Metropolis, Alladin, Mac 0... sorry

Using CG in cell animation is like using cell animation in live action -at least to my eyes- "Don't!"

I have no problem with the actions used in the dogfights, it's the visibility of the textures

used for CG-objects

it's so "off" from the surroundings it's placed upon, it takes away my attention like a scratch on a monitor

we had a "Magic" discussion in the M7 thread already, So I'll leave it at what Cory said

[Southcross]

Even though I'm not a CGI fan, I for one absolutly loved FF spirits within. I think it got a bum rap when it was in the theaters. Just the simple fact alone that every single hair on Aki Ross's head was indiviualy done, just mays me say "wow". Also the story was actually done quite well in Final Fantasy style (which a lot of people did not get). I own the DVD and several of the action figures (mint on the card of course ) I got hooked on FF with VII, and had to go buy a PS2 when X came out.

IMO

Beastwars I found basically annoying, I watched a few eppisodes and I just could not get into it. Reboot (If I recall the series your refering to) I hated the CG but the story build was pretty interesting. The CG work from companies like Pixar I find just captivating, but its not Anime and outside the scope of this discussion. I grew up with the cartoons (and converted anime) of the 80s. Transformers, GI Joe, Looney Toons, Robotech, and countless others I can't remember anymore. My initial impression of the early CGI cartoons/Anime is they seemed to focus more on dazzleing us with high-def animation, and not dazzle us with intricate story building.

[CoryHolmes]

they seemed to focus more on dazzleing us with high-def animation, and not dazzle us with intricate story building.

Exactly my point.