Neon Genesis EVANGELION General Thread

[505thAirborne]

1 hour ago, easnoddy said:

That's ADV. I have the first release. I don't really care for the dub. The guy who does Shinji seems like he's always yelling.  Very different from the Japanese language version. 

Normally I prefer the original Japanese subs, however with Evangelion, I kinda like the original dub better, I know that's slightly blasphemous but just my preference. 

[Ryoma]

So, i am curious...the new evangelion dub on netflix came out a couple of days ago here in Italy. It is terrible, with grammar mistakes and many debatable choices...my question to you american fellows is...did the angels become apostoles there in the U.S. too?

[Sildani]

Nope, they’re still Angels. 

[Ryoma]

Glad to hear that. They are destroying only the italian version then.

[kajnrig]

Well, to be fair, the Japanese word used in-show, "shito," literally means "apostle," not "angel." (Compare the opening theme, "Cruel Angel's Thesis," aka "Zankoku no Tenshi no Teze".)

https://wiki.evageeks.org/Angels#Translation

Eva does this dual-title thing a lot. Individual episodes have separate Japanese and English names, too.

Edited June 22, 2019 by kajnrig

[Brand]

Interesting. Going with an apostolic theme instead of an angelic one for the Angels might've been interesting as well. What might've been.

[Ryoma]

I did not know that. Very interesting. But since the title of the first episode is Angel Attack(if i remember correctly) and all the antagonists have angel's names i think it was a wrong choice. It really seems they used google translator to translate the entire series, and i am not referring only to this. Clearly i am aware you cannot know this and i understand you shouldn't really care. Just be patient with me, Netflix lately seems to be destroying all my favourite anime(Cowboy Bebop, Saint Seiya and Evangelion) so i feel the need to vent a bit with you all.

[tekering]

17 hours ago, Ryoma said:

It really seems they used google translator to translate the entire series, and i am not referring only to this.

To be honest, most of the Biblical references in Evangelion were just as badly translated in the original series, "angel" being a prime example...  Early fansubs I produced used "disciples," but "apostles" is definitely more appropriate.

Regardless, Italian adaptations have a particularly bad reputation when it comes to anime (and Transformers as well, as I recall).

[kajnrig]

18 hours ago, Ryoma said:

I did not know that. Very interesting. But since the title of the first episode is Angel Attack(if i remember correctly)

Episode 1 is a case of the English and Japanese titles being nearly identical. In Japanese, " 使徒、襲来 " (Shito Shurai, or "Apostle Attack"). In English, "Angel Attack".

18 hours ago, Ryoma said:

It really seems they used google translator to translate the entire series, and i am not referring only to this. Clearly i am aware you cannot know this and i understand you shouldn't really care. Just be patient with me, Netflix lately seems to be destroying all my favourite anime(Cowboy Bebop, Saint Seiya and Evangelion) so i feel the need to vent a bit with you all.

Oh by all means, vent. This quirk of the original Japanese directorial decisions doesn't say anything at all about the quality or lack thereof of the Italian dub. I feel for you, sounds like you're having to suffer through hack job fansubs (and/or worse yet, fandubs) in an official product.

[Stampeed Valkyrie]

I watched ep 1 on Netflix..  2 things worth noting.

Shinji now sounds like Rei..   or to be more accurate..  the VA could do either character with the same acting.. just sayin.

And no more fly me to the moon...  boo.

Misato's english VA  just seems to be meh.

I probably will push further hear what Rei sounds like.. and eventually Asuka.    

But Shinji is fail.

[Hikuro]

Asuka and Shinjis friends were very disappointing to hear.

[Ryoma]

3 hours ago, tekering said:

To be honest, most of the Biblical references in Evangelion were just as badly translated in the original series, "angel" being a prime example...  Early fansubs I produced used "disciples," but "apostles" is definitely more appropriate.

Regardless, Italian adaptations have a particularly bad reputation when it comes to anime (and Transformers as well, as I recall).

You are not wrong. Saint Seiya is another good example of that. The thing is that we have some of the best voice actors ever. They are really awesome and would not trade them for anybody else. So the acting is always great but the translations are, most of the times, bad or, in the past, incorrect. Even now when most of the times they can have access to the original scripts they tend to be too much litteral  and therefore it makes it tough to fully enjoy the show. 

[Ryoma]

2 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Episode 1 is a case of the English and Japanese titles being nearly identical. In Japanese, " 使徒、襲来 " (Shito Shurai, or "Apostle Attack"). In English, "Angel Attack".

Oh by all means, vent. This quirk of the original Japanese directorial decisions doesn't say anything at all about the quality or lack thereof of the Italian dub. I feel for you, sounds like you're having to suffer through hack job fansubs (and/or worse yet, fandubs) in an official product.

Well, thanks.  the funny thing is that we already have a great version of Evangelion in Italy. It came out in the late 90s and it was dubbed very well and from my understanding the translation was very accurate to the original material. Netflix decided to redub the whole thing and made a big mess. I am just sorry for the new generations that will have to listen to this new translation. Luckily enough the first version is still widely available ind DVD. 

Another funny moment is when the Evas go Berserk. Now it's called " Stato di furia", something like "State of fury"   

[505thAirborne]

The whole thing is a hot mess, even the subbed version seems off, the Japanese audio is ok but the subtitles have been changed in places. 

[Seto Kaiba]

I hate how they've pulled a Robotech and added new dialog to scenes that didn't originally have any...

[kajnrig]

Oh? I haven't watched it yet, but boy oh boy, if it's anything like the EoE dub...

[505thAirborne]

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I hate how they've pulled a Robotech and added new dialog to scenes that didn't originally have any...

This pretty much sums it up. 

[David Hingtgen]

Hmmn, maybe I should just do my re-watch in raw Japanese, no subs, and just "try to remember what the original VHS subs said".  (yes, I last watched it on tape)   

[Sildani]

Well, did some digging, and found a possible explanation for this dub: one, it hews closer to the original Japanese script than before: it was micromanaged by Studio Khara, the Japanese owners of Eva, to their satisfaction. There’s a school of thought that says Khara did this based on fan reaction to a screening of Rebuild Of Evangelion 3.0 at an American anime con, with a localized English dub. There was laughter and good times, not the seriousness Khara wanted. They were... appalled.

[kajnrig]

Going through the front page of the subreddit, I can confidently say I'll just stick to my DVDs and manga, thanks very much. (I should really get the omnibuses. Mine are really showing their age...) Cool for the influx of new fans.

[Keith]

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

Well, did some digging, and found a possible explanation for this dub: one, it hews closer to the original Japanese script than before: it was micromanaged by Studio Khara, the Japanese owners of Eva, to their satisfaction. There’s a school of thought that says Khara did this based on fan reaction to a screening of Rebuild Of Evangelion 3.0 at an American anime con, with a localized English dub. There was laughter and good times, not the seriousness Khara wanted. They were... appalled.

Pretty sure I said this when the license was first announced.

[Sildani]

Not to be difficult, but I re-read the thread and I didn’t see this particular reason spoken of before. Did I miss it?

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, Sildani said:

Well, did some digging, and found a possible explanation for this dub: one, it hews closer to the original Japanese script than before: it was micromanaged by Studio Khara, the Japanese owners of Eva, to their satisfaction. There’s a school of thought that says Khara did this based on fan reaction to a screening of Rebuild Of Evangelion 3.0 at an American anime con, with a localized English dub. There was laughter and good times, not the seriousness Khara wanted. They were... appalled.

Jeez... if that's true, then Studio Khara screwed the pooch so hard I'm contemplating calling the ASPCA on behalf of a strictly metaphorical animal.

Between the terrible casting decisions and the Robotech-isms, this Netflix dub of Neon Genesis Evangelion feels less like a modern production than it does a thirty year step backwards for anime dubbing. 

I gave up after one and a half episodes and gave the series a firm thumbs-down on Netflix.

[no3Ljm]

本日『シン・エヴァンゲリオン劇場版』の特報、そして公開年を発表しました。

特報は7月20日(金)～8月31日(金)(予定)まで、全国の映画館（※一部劇場を除く）でご覧頂けます。
また今作では、東宝、東映、カラーの3社が共同で映画配給業務を行います。

『シン・エヴァンゲリオン劇場版』
2020年公開
総監督：庵野秀明
制作：スタジオカラー
配給：東宝 東映 カラー
製作：カラー

Today we announced the special edition of "Shin Evangelion Movie version" and the year of publication.

The special report can be viewed at cinemas nationwide (except for some theaters) from July 20 (Fri) to August 31 (Fri) (scheduled).
In addition, in this work, three companies of Toho, Toei, and Color perform the film distribution work jointly.  

"Shin Evangelion Movie version"
2020 release
General manager: Hideaki Ogino
Production: Studio color
Distribution: Toho Toei Color
Production: Color

http://www.evangelion.co.jp/news.html

 

[Old_Nash]

I thinked about it in these days...

I mean, with all popularity about the anime in Netflix, and with much anime adaptation we have in the recnts years, it's time, they bring back the live action movie project.

http://legacy.aintitcool.com/node/16790

[David Hingtgen]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Jeez... if that's true, then Studio Khara screwed the pooch so hard I'm contemplating calling the ASPCA on behalf of a strictly metaphorical animal.

Between the terrible casting decisions and the Robotech-isms, this Netflix dub of Neon Genesis Evangelion feels less like a modern production than it does a thirty year step backwards for anime dubbing. 

I gave up after one and a half episodes and gave the series a firm thumbs-down on Netflix.

Pretty much---I read some more on that story this morning, and it seems they "went all serious" to the point of making the script robotic and lifeless.  So yeah---uber-serious now, to the point of sounding odd, stilted, and "not the way real people talk".   As in, sounds like a bad translation, due to how "awkward and literal" everything is now.  Even if, technically, it's a "very accurate translation".   It simply "doesn't work/flow at all well in English any more".  

PS---and yeah, apparently people liked the previous dub when it premiered.  How dare people have fun and enjoy an OVA on the big screen, and not "be all serious all the time about a serious film".    I wonder if people weren't supposed to cheer during EoE, when it's Asuka vs the mass production units?  "Sorry, that's not supposed to be exciting, it's supposed to be a visual representation of the futility of life, against such severe odds---be meloncholy and morose, please, while viewing".  

[no3Ljm]

14 minutes ago, Old_Nash said:

I thinked about it in these days...

I mean, with all popularity about the anime in Netflix, and with much anime adaptation we have in the recnts years, it's time, they bring back the live action movie project.

http://legacy.aintitcool.com/node/16790

Guillermo del Toro actually did an amazing job on his Pacific Rim. It's basically an anime mecha with kaijus brought to life.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

Pretty much---I read some more on that story this morning, and it seems they "went all serious" to the point of making the script robotic and lifeless.  So yeah---uber-serious now, to the point of sounding odd, stilted, and "not the way real people talk".   As in, sounds like a bad translation, due to how "awkward and literal" everything is now.  Even if, technically, it's a "very accurate translation".   It simply "doesn't work/flow at all well in English any more".  

That was one of the things I couldn't quite put my finger on when I was watching the first episode... the dialog felt weirdly unnatural in a lot of places.

To me, the impression wasn't one of excessive seriousness so much as a feeling that something was off about the translation itself.  There's this odd cadence to the dialog that reminds me a lot of the translations I've seen at work where the English translation was done by a native speaker of the document's source language.  It left me wondering if Netflix produced a new translation themselves or if they'd delegated the translation to the Japanese studio they licensed the show from and just recorded whatever they were handed.

 

7 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

PS---and yeah, apparently people liked the previous dub when it premiered.  How dare people have fun and enjoy an OVA on the big screen, and not "be all serious all the time about a serious film".    I wonder if people weren't supposed to cheer during EoE, when it's Asuka vs the mass production units?  "Sorry, that's not supposed to be exciting, it's supposed to be a visual representation of the futility of life, against such severe odds---be meloncholy and morose, please, while viewing".  

Y'know, I'm not sure if that means they've lost touch with the original meaning of Neon Genesis Evangelion or if they're getting back in touch with it.

I'm inclined to suspect the latter.  Evangelion wasn't supposed to be enjoyed, it was supposed to be a stinging rebuke of otaku culture and scathing deconstruction of all the tropes that surround the socially withdrawn heroes the otaku identify with.  It's like a furious, hate-filled rant being mistaken for a really harsh stand-up comedy routine.

[easnoddy]

Not hating this dub.  Only Shinji a little.  Why oh why do they always screw up Shinji???  US voice actors they choose are SO WHINY.  The Japanese voice is deeper and less sheepishly female. 

Why do they use "third children" in this dub?  Its grammatically incorrect.

[kajnrig]

23 minutes ago, easnoddy said:

Not hating this dub.  Only Shinji a little.  Why oh why do they always screw up Shinji???  US voice actors they choose are SO WHINY.  The Japanese voice is deeper and less sheepishly female. 

Why do they use "third children" in this dub?  Its grammatically incorrect.

It's more literally accurate to the original Japanese terminology, which used "Children" to refer to both the singular and plural, so "First Children," "the Children," etc. (You can hear them specifically say "children" in the Japanese dub.) You can get away with that in Japanese because it doesn't have the same singular/plural noun distinction that English does; "Children" is just a cool-sounding word to them. But in English, as you say, it's grammatically incorrect and sounds truly, truly awful.

The debate around the new dub centers around the same issue as has plagued translations from the beginning of time: being literally correct versus being thematically or emotionally correct.

In the infamous hospital room scene, the Japanese dub has Shinji say,

"最低だ、俺って。"
or
"Saitte da, orette."
or
lit. "Is the lowest, I/me." (ie "I'm the lowest.")

-----------------

In the 2002 Manga Entertainment release, Shinji's Japanese dialogue subtitle, and his line in English, says,

"I'm so fraked up."

-----------------

In the 2019 Netflix stream, Shinji's English line, and both dialogue subtitles, says,

"I'm the lowest of the low."

-----------------

The Netflix dub is a much more direct, literal translation, but some have argued (correctly, I think) that the 2002 dub does a better job of conveying, in English, the same sentiment as the Japanese dub. That expression, and its line delivery, more fully expresses the depths to which the character has fallen, and how thoroughly disgusted he is with himself.

Similarly, later in the movie, Shinji and Misato have an exchange that goes, in the Japanese dub, something like

Shinji: "But Misato, you're a stranger ("他人 / tanin," lit. "other person/people"), you don't understand/know anything about me."
Misato: "What does it matter if I am?"

The 2019 dub sticks as closely as it can to the original, including using the phrase "you're a stranger," which doesn't have the same connotation in English as in Japanese. It's something of an insult in Japanese to call someone close to you a stranger; the inference is that a stranger is someone who doesn't know you, who doesn't understand you. In English, "stranger" either simply means someone you pass on the street or refers to a person with ambiguously-sinister intent. Getting the same sentiment across as the Japanese equivalent is much more straight forward: "You don't know me."

The crux of what Shinji/Misato are saying is, "You don't understand what it's like being me." and "That doesn't matter," respectively. The 2002 dub gets closer to capturing this essence:

S: "But you're not me. You don't know what I have to go through! You don't understand!"
M: "So (frakking) what if I'm not you!?"

Nothing about "stranger" this, "stranger" that.

[Sildani]

Yeahp. That pretty much hits the nail on the head. 

As for Eva being a raging deconstruction of otaku culture: it was that, and an outlet for Hideaki Anno’s depression, and a couple other things. But now, Anno feels better, has a more positive outlook, and I believe has said he’s grateful (kinda?) to the otaku community for embracing his work. 

I suppose people you hate giving you gobs of money for your work does tend to round off the hard edges...

[Keith]

4 hours ago, easnoddy said:

Not hating this dub.  Only Shinji a little.  Why oh why do they always screw up Shinji???  US voice actors they choose are SO WHINY.  The Japanese voice is deeper and less sheepishly female. 

Why do they use "third children" in this dub?  Its grammatically incorrect.

It'a a classification.

[tekering]

1 hour ago, Keith said:

It'a a classification.

No, it's an indictment of the education system in Japan.  "Third Children" is categorically wrong, and incontrovertible proof that Studio Khara is behind it.

Believe me, I've been fighting the system here for over twenty years.  

[Keith]

10 hours ago, tekering said:

No, it's an indictment of the education system in Japan.  "Third Children" is categorically wrong, and incontrovertible proof that Studio Khara is behind it.

Believe me, I've been fighting the system here for over twenty years.  

Implication - finding a pilot is a singular endeavor, when it actually "also" requires a compatible core to sync with that pilot. 

[slide]

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm inclined to suspect the latter.  Evangelion wasn't supposed to be enjoyed, it was supposed to be a stinging rebuke of otaku culture and scathing deconstruction of all the tropes that surround the socially withdrawn heroes the otaku identify with.  It's like a furious, hate-filled rant being mistaken for a really harsh stand-up comedy routine.

the original NGE always struck me as more of a "Frustrated to the point of madness/depression" rather than hateful... which only drove him deeper into his spiral as he realised his work was merely feeding the otaku he was ridiculing exactly what they wanted: anime-boobs, hyper-violence, and an escape from our reality through a window into a worse one.