Neon Genesis EVANGELION General Thread

[kajnrig]

So after nearly 15 years, 4.0 brings the Rebuilds to a conclusion, and it was... fine. It managed to recover after 3.33 tumbled all over the mat midway through the balance beam routine. And I suppose that says something about Evangelion that it's managed to stick the landing something like... four times now? The TV show, the movie, the manga, and now the Rebuild, each of them despite their own unique hurdles. And 4.0 reaffirms my opinion way back in 2007 that the Rebuilds as a whole are... neat but redundant. I think the biggest success of 4.0 is that it forces a confrontation between father and son that... again, is neat but redundant, but it was nice to see all the same. The Shinji Ikaris of the past didn't need to talk things out with their father in order to mature, and frankly this one didn't either, and arguably Gendo didn't "deserve" the reconciliation... but it was nice to see all the same. It's emotionally satisfying.

I'm in agreement that the CGI Lillith was one of a handful of straight up bad decisions. At the very least, that style of rendering was a bad decision. It's so at odds with the rest of the animation... which might have been the point, to instill it with a sense of wrongness, but the obvious counter-argument is that End of Eva managed to do the same thing, instill the same sense of wrongness, but still make it look cohesive. (There's a term for that, that for the life of me I can't remember.)

I'm curious what young people think of the Rebuild. How it may or may not resonate with them, and how they find it compares to the original and/or its contemporaries.

 

 

[Keith]

Her name is Eva Imaginary, Gendo already trashed Lilith in Terminal Dogma. And yeah, I'm pretty sure her disturbing CG appearance was intentional. We'll find out for sure if she's tweaked for the home release.

[Lexomatic]

 

On 9/2/2021 at 5:41 PM, Keith said:

How did they (NERV and WILLE) have the manpower (or machine power) to construct everything they did in it?

IMHO, the story (*) of Evangelion is first and foremost about character growth (i.e., transcending the "hedgehog's dilemma") so the civil and mecha engineering isn't the point, but I agree that the magnitude in the Rebuild movies strained credulity. My partial-head canon is that:

• Some of the NERV mega-installations were repurposed Progenitor facilities (to give a name to the aliens who seeded Earth with the so-called White and Black Moons).
• Post-N3I and post-SEELE, Gendo and Fuyutski used Progenitor automated manufactories that had been included in the seed packages, whose instructions were part of the so-called Apocrypha to the Dead Sea Scrolls.
• WILLE didn't build the AAA Wunder, but they did refit it. (Originally I speculated that it was a leftover Progenitor ship -- as in Nadia -- but the final movie gives a different *spoiler* origin.) They tapped a whole lot of international NERV materiel that Gendo wasn't using.

(*) The story is about character growth, but the money is in the character goods: muscular mecha and cute protagonists.

[Lexomatic]

Haven't fully screened 3.0+1.0 on Prime Video yet, but I've skimmed it. (I've been screening the Rebuild movies with my parents for lack of another audience with whom to share the cinematic experience, and 2.5 hours is potentially a slog for them. If you think you're confused, try explaining Hideaki ANNO's obscurantism to a couple of senior citizens whose main exposure to anime is Studio Ghibli films.) Initial thoughts:

Spoiler

The interlude with civilian life in Village 3 serves several purposes: gives the plot a respite; brings the conflict to human scale; that some of the secondary characters survived means Shinji's efforts weren't fully in vain; the time skip lets those characters demonstrate how a person can move past trauma.

Central character Shinji is able to reconcile with each of the other people in his life (as it were, replace "get in the damn robot, Shinji" with "use your words, Shinji"). In the TV version, most of them meet a demise at a distance.

Shinji ends up with Mari, the one new character of the Rebuild version? Well, that was unexpected.

Gendo's plan is a Xanatos Plot, i.e., how many points of failure are there if his catspaws didn't behave as expected, or aren't sufficiently competent? ("The AAA Wunder and Unit 01 are at the bottom of the sea after a cascade failure of the improvised charging system caused by bad welds.")

The motivation is phrased as "killing the gods" (i.e., the Progenitor aliens) -- a bit of Wagnerian Niebelung, there. (I thought that was Leiji MATSUMOTO's schtick?  )

What if SEELE and Gendo completely misinterpreted the Progenitors and the gifts they had left?

It seems that "stuff all souls into Eva-bodies" encompasses dogs and sheep in addition to humans.

Rewriting the universe is tantamount to killing everybody. I wonder if they'll all have strange nightmares, leakage from an adjacent timeline?

 

[Keith]

8 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

 

IMHO, the story (*) of Evangelion is first and foremost about character growth (i.e., transcending the "hedgehog's dilemma") so the civil and mecha engineering isn't the point, but I agree that the magnitude in the Rebuild movies strained credulity. My partial-head canon is that:

• Some of the NERV mega-installations were repurposed Progenitor facilities (to give a name to the aliens who seeded Earth with the so-called White and Black Moons).
• Post-N3I and post-SEELE, Gendo and Fuyutski used Progenitor automated manufactories that had been included in the seed packages, whose instructions were part of the so-called Apocrypha to the Dead Sea Scrolls.
• WILLE didn't build the AAA Wunder, but they did refit it. (Originally I speculated that it was a leftover Progenitor ship -- as in Nadia -- but the final movie gives a different *spoiler* origin.) They tapped a whole lot of international NERV materiel that Gendo wasn't using.

(*) The story is about character growth, but the money is in the character goods: muscular mecha and cute protagonists.

That wasn't me you were quoting....

[anime52k8]

As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence/indication that the first ancestral race existsin the rebuild continuity.

[sqidd]

59 minutes ago, anime52k8 said:

As far as I'm aware, there's no evidence/indication that the first ancestral race existsin the rebuild continuity.

Really? Then where did the Angels and Lilith come from? Is it just left open ended?

[Keith]

1 hour ago, sqidd said:

Really? Then where did the Angels and Lilith come from? Is it just left open ended?

Exactly, the implication of Rebuild is that it's already a looped event, so everything that stood true in the first series stands true in Rebuild. The only real open ended question is whether Shinji's influence of reset was limited to Earth, or if he reset time in general.

[sqidd]

51 minutes ago, Keith said:

Exactly, the implication of Rebuild is that it's already a looped event, so everything that stood true in the first series stands true in Rebuild. The only real open ended question is whether Shinji's influence of reset was limited to Earth, or if he reset time in general.

I think the biggest thing I don't understand is Shinji some sort of messiah, or is he just a victim of events? In short, why Shinji?

[Keith]

1 hour ago, sqidd said:

I think the biggest thing I don't understand is Shinji some sort of messiah, or is he just a victim of events? In short, why Shinji?

Because his mother is the genius that solved the mysteries of life, and positioned herself to become the savior of life in the universe, making Shinji the proxy savior/destroyer of life on Earth (depending on his choice).

[DYRL VF-1S]

2 hours ago, Keith said:

Exactly, the implication of Rebuild is that it's already a looped event, so everything that stood true in the first series stands true in Rebuild. The only real open ended question is whether Shinji's influence of reset was limited to Earth, or if he reset time in general.

 

50 minutes ago, Keith said:

Because his mother is the genius that solved the mysteries of life, and positioned herself to become the savior of life in the universe, making Shinji the proxy savior/destroyer of life on Earth (depending on his choice).

Wow. I agree with you. Haha. But yeah that’s where my head is on both of those topics too.

[sqidd]

9 hours ago, Keith said:

Because his mother is the genius that solved the mysteries of life, and positioned herself to become the savior of life in the universe, making Shinji the proxy savior/destroyer of life on Earth (depending on his choice).

This is where I get lost a little in the "reality" of Evangelion. Most of Evangelion is explained with technology ( way more advanced than humans). But Shinji's place seems to occupy something more like magic.

[Ryoma]

2 hours ago, sqidd said:

This is where I get lost a little in the "reality" of Evangelion. Most of Evangelion is explained with technology ( way more advanced than humans). But Shinji's place seems to occupy something more like magic.

Well, I always thought it was because his mother's soul was absorbed by Unit-01 and therefore he was the only one to be able to pilot it/her. And the whole Berserker thing makes the 01 the strongest Evangelion ever(the rage of a mom and his will to defend her son...i guess nothing in this world can be stronger than that). Or maybe that's not what you meant. Sorry if i misunderstood your words 😅

[sqidd]

1 hour ago, Ryoma said:

Well, I always thought it was because his mother's soul was absorbed by Unit-01 and therefore he was the only one to be able to pilot it/her. And the whole Berserker thing makes the 01 the strongest Evangelion ever(the rage of a mom and his will to defend her son...i guess nothing in this world can be stronger than that). Or maybe that's not what you meant. Sorry if i misunderstood your words 😅

That makes sense. I guess that means that his "power" to re-set the timeline and bring on impacts, etc is just a coincidence then. Not that he was "ordained" to play that role.

That said, I get his role/ability to bring on impacts (his relationship with his mother/Unit 01). What is still foggy to me is where does his ability to re-set or loop the timeline come in then? Is it all the same thing?

 

And I just thought of something else. At the beginning of 3.33 Unit 01/Shinji are imprisoned in that cross shaped box in orbit. Did NERV/Gendo put him/them there? Why? Doesn't it assume that they stopped the Third Impact to get them in there? Isn't the Third Impact what they wanted? And how did they get an awakened Unit 01 in there in the first place? Ask nicely?

[DYRL VF-1S]

3 minutes ago, sqidd said:

That makes sense. I guess that means that his "power" to re-set the timeline and bring on impacts, etc is just a coincidence then. Not that he was "ordained" to play that role.

That said, I get his role/ability to bring on impacts (his relationship with his mother/Unit 01). What is still foggy to me is where does his ability to re-set or loop the timeline come in then? Is it all the same thing?

 

And I just thought of something else. At the beginning of 3.33 Unit 01/Shinji are imprisoned in that cross shaped box in orbit. Did NERV/Gendo put him/them there? Why? Doesn't it assume that they stopped the Third Impact to get them in there? Isn't the Third Impact what they wanted? And how did they get an awakened Unit 01 in there in the first place? Ask nicely?

I’m guessing Anno didn’t have a continuity team on the project like Star Wars 💩

[sqidd]

9 minutes ago, DYRL VF-1S said:

I’m guessing Anno didn’t have a continuity team on the project like Star Wars 💩

So far everything that I have needed an explanation for has been there if I look hard enough or ask enough questions. It's all just so complicated and there is almost zero exposition (compared to your standard American movie) that you need to dig hard. 

I just re-watched the Rebuild movies. Every time I watch them I pick up on more of these tiny little things that Anno put in to explain the story. They're super subtle. But they're there.

[Ryoma]

34 minutes ago, sqidd said:

That makes sense. I guess that means that his "power" to re-set the timeline and bring on impacts, etc is just a coincidence then. Not that he was "ordained" to play that role.

That said, I get his role/ability to bring on impacts (his relationship with his mother/Unit 01). What is still foggy to me is where does his ability to re-set or loop the timeline come in then? Is it all the same thing?

 

And I just thought of something else. At the beginning of 3.33 Unit 01/Shinji are imprisoned in that cross shaped box in orbit. Did NERV/Gendo put him/them there? Why? Doesn't it assume that they stopped the Third Impact to get them in there? Isn't the Third Impact what they wanted? And how did they get an awakened Unit 01 in there in the first place? Ask nicely?

Well, your questions are more than reasonable. My general thoughts on evangelion and its endings are:

TV ending: Beautiful message to all the Otaku. Shinji's journey was all internal and in the end he was able to open up to others and to the world. Maybe an happy accident (they ended the budget too soon) but i really enjoyed the fact that the author tried to convey a positive message to all the people watching the show. At that point i did not care very much about unanswered questions because i understood that the show was not about that.

TOE ending: Complete destruction. Anno gets mad because fans did not get the previous final and they wanted something with more action. You do get some questions answered but also a complete pessimistic ending with total destruction of the material and spiritual world.

At this point the fans get to choose: do you want a positive ending but without the usual action sequences and without all the narratives holes filled or do you want a more usual ending, with a lot of action, some questions answered but very dark and pessimistic? I think which one you choose tells a lot about your personality.

Then we get the manga ending. Probably the most balanced. You get most of the questions answered and some sort of uplifting final sequence. 

And last you get the rebuild movies. I really did not feel the need for them and i think Anno sacrificied too much of the coherence of the plot for...everything else. 

Anyway to answer your last question, i think they were not ready for start the fourth impact yet since they couldn't extract the two spears without the new Evangelion model. Although i think the 15 years between the second and third movie will be covered by some additional material which should be released in the next few months. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Ryoma

[no3Ljm]

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[General Rasp]

https://www.usagundamstore.com/products/one-meter-studio-evangelion-unit-01-eva

Giant EVA 01 Statue 

[sqidd]

35 minutes ago, General Rasp said:

https://www.usagundamstore.com/products/one-meter-studio-evangelion-unit-01-eva

Giant EVA 01 Statue 

Thank goodness I don't have room for that.

[no3Ljm]

Revoltech Evangelion Evolution Eva Unit-08γ

[no3Ljm]

HLJ has some Evangelion figures on sale.

https://www.hlj.com/search/?q=Evangelion&productFilter=itemGroup%3AFALLSALE2021

 

[sqidd]

Check it out. A Positron Cannon to scale with the ThreeZero EVA's.

https://www.bombusbee.net/bo-eva-01-p3295.html

 

[anime52k8]

would this scale with metal builds? I'm not sure how big the threezero ones are.

[pengbuzz]

With all these new OVA's, starting to feel a little lost as to the story...

Makes me wonder if Gendo has become Adam and is etherial now, trying to manipulate different "timelines" to find one where his plan works as he envisioned it?

[tekering]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

With all these new OVA's, starting to feel a little lost as to the story...

You seem a little lost as to the distribution format, too.  The Rebuild of Evangelion movies are theatrical feature films, not OVAs.

[pengbuzz]

28 minutes ago, tekering said:

You seem a little lost as to the distribution format, too.  The Rebuild of Evangelion movies are theatrical feature films, not OVAs.

Yeah, I am admittedly. Right about now, I'd settle for finding the concession stand. O.o

[Keith]

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

With all these new OVA's, starting to feel a little lost as to the story...

Makes me wonder if Gendo has become Adam and is etherial now, trying to manipulate different "timelines" to find one where his plan works as he envisioned it?

The first go-round Gendo only had enough time to implant the embryo in his hand, content to use Rei to take him along into the original Lilith to take the place of Adam's soul and take control of Lilith to either join Yui on her trip, or pin her down into instrumentality.

Rebuild Gendo has had time to fully integrate his body into an Angel. He wasn't manipulating timeliness, just transcending into an anti-universe to pull the power he needed to succeed, until Yui put him in his place again, putting Shinji once again into the position of power.

Me, I'm just still dumbfounded that I was right about Kowaru being Gendo.

[sqidd]

3 minutes ago, Keith said:

Me, I'm just still dumbfounded that I was right about Kowaru being Gendo.

Explain?

[General Rasp]

8 hours ago, anime52k8 said:

would this scale with metal builds? I'm not sure how big the threezero ones are.

The threezero ones are smaller than the metal builds. I think the threezero are around 9-ish inches. 

[technoblue]

44 minutes ago, General Rasp said:

The threezero ones are smaller than the metal builds. I think the threezero are around 9-ish inches. 

It’s the other way around. For instance, the ThreeZero EVA-01 is 25cm. The Metal Build EVA-01 is about 22cm. 

Wotafa’s review compares multiple versions, including these two. Jump to 12:37. Here’s the link:

 

[Keith]

13 hours ago, sqidd said:

Explain?

Take a good look at Gendo during his flash back. His hair, his school uniform, younger face & love of piano. You'll also notice after his reconciliation that he was wrong to reject Shinji/Yui was always a part of Shinji/with him/etc something very interesting happens. The focus instantly shifts to Kowaru with Kaji handling his "interview." During the course of it, Kaji treats Kowaru exactly the same way he treats Gendo. We're even taken to Gendo's office with Kowaru sitting behind his desk being called "Commander Nagisa."

Rebuild Kowaru's additional obsession with reconciling a happy ending for Shinji is called out as trying to find happiness for himself proxy through Shinji, which in itself is a bit strange since Kowaru fundamentally isn't much more "lived" than Rei.

The finale has Shinji pairing the clone of his mother up with Kowaru, someone we now have some pointed evidence to be a clone of Gendo. Whether his soul is purely that of Adam, if Gendou & Yui have always been Adam & Lilith, or at some point during the repeated cycles they replaced the originals is still somewhat of a question mark. But now that we have negative realities being tapped into with Gendo & Yui each tapping into that power, it's definitely possible.

And that's still not getting into how many times these events have played out on how many worlds.Yui didn't seem to get away with a spear to colonize another world this time, but we know she has before.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Keith

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Keith said:

Take a good look at Gendo during his flash back. His hair, his school uniform, younger face & love of piano. You'll also notice after his reconciliation that he was wrong to reject Shinji/Yui was always a part of Shinji/with him/etc something very interesting happens. The focus instantly shifts to Kowaru with Kaji handling his "interview." During the course of it, Kaji treats Kowaru exactly the same way he treats Gendo. We're even taken to Gendo's office with Kowaru sitting behind his desk being called "Commander Nagisa."

Rebuild Kowaru's additional obsession with reconciling a happy ending for Shinji is called out as trying to find happiness for himself proxy through Shinji, which in itself is a bit strange since Kowaru fundamentally isn't much more "lived" than Rei.

The finale has Shinji pairing the clone of his mother up with Kowaru, someone we now have some pointed evidence to be a clone of Glendora. Whether his soul is purely that of Adam, if Gendou & Yui have always been Adam & Lilith, or at some point during the repeated cycles they replaced the originals is still somewhat of a question mark. But now that we have negative realities being tapped into with Gendo & Yui each tapping into that power, it's definitely possible.

And that's still not getting into how many times these events have played out on how many worlds.Yui didn't seem to get away with a spear to colonize another world this time, but we know she has before.

And I just went cross-eyed.

[sqidd]

3 hours ago, Keith said:

Take a good look at Gendo during his flash back. His hair, his school uniform, younger face & love of piano. You'll also notice after his reconciliation that he was wrong to reject Shinji/Yui was always a part of Shinji/with him/etc something very interesting happens. The focus instantly shifts to Kowaru with Kaji handling his "interview." During the course of it, Kaji treats Kowaru exactly the same way he treats Gendo. We're even taken to Gendo's office with Kowaru sitting behind his desk being called "Commander Nagisa."

Rebuild Kowaru's additional obsession with reconciling a happy ending for Shinji is called out as trying to find happiness for himself proxy through Shinji, which in itself is a bit strange since Kowaru fundamentally isn't much more "lived" than Rei.

The finale has Shinji pairing the clone of his mother up with Kowaru, someone we now have some pointed evidence to be a clone of Glendora. Whether his soul is purely that of Adam, if Gendou & Yui have always been Adam & Lilith, or at some point during the repeated cycles they replaced the originals is still somewhat of a question mark. But now that we have negative realities being tapped into with Gendo & Yui each tapping into that power, it's definitely possible.

And that's still not getting into how many times these events have played out on how many worlds.Yui didn't seem to get away with a spear to colonize another world this time, but we know she has before.

[no3Ljm]

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